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So I played a game this passed weekend against Necrons and boy was I blown away by some of their new stuff. Not only did it confuse the bejeebus out of me but the mind-shackle-scarabs and 36 inch tank shocks were completely catching me off guard. I've caught a bunch of crap for playing some games as Blood Angels. Since then we've had Necrons and Space Wolves fielded (as well as some Grey Kinghts) and I have seen some crazy stuff, stuff that made me feel a lot better about playing BAs from time to time since I could be using something else that is far more crazy (at least to me anyways).

Anyways, thought I'd get some feedback from Dakka.

Isn't this better suited for 40k general discussion?

curran12 wrote:Isn't this better suited for 40k general discussion?

Eeek! *doh* I had multiple tabs open and I clicked the create thread button on the wrong one >.<;;

But yeah, I'd agree, sorry about that. Perhaps a mod will move it.

I voted for 8 armies (ahh, 40k)... but by definition, can half of the selection be considered overpowered? If half of the population (of 15) is overpowered, then aren't they technically powered just evenly? The rest are just underpowered?

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:I voted for 8 armies (ahh, 40k)... but by definition, can half of the selection be considered overpowered? If half of the population (of 15) is overpowered, then aren't they technically powered just evenly? The rest are just underpowered?

Vanilla Marines and Chaos Daemons? About the only thing OP in Vanilla I'd say is Vulkan, and Chaos Daemons have some cool stuff but don't stack up well against the new stuff. Their flamers that don't allow saves are pretty awesome though.

I am gonna say just this:

You are going to always hear that GK, IG, and SW are overpowered.

You are also never gonna hear that Tau, Black Templar, and dark angels are overpowered------ UNTIL they get a new codex.

The thing is, all codexes have their secrets, but the three stated above have HEAVILY used combos that are hard to counter.

I think everyone can agree on a few things.

IG can take way too much and their point system is off giving them an advantage.

There will always be people playing SW fielding long fangs like it is going out of style. but sadly it is not, it is just more annoying playing the same damn army over and over again.

GK, just some BS there. 135 points for a dreadnaught that can fire 4 twin link strength 8 shots, yea, that's some ripe BS.


Just have to wait until the other codexes are caught up. I know GW is a business trying to make money, but the codex thing to make everyone go gagga over the next codex is getting ridiculous. they need to push out more new codexes and bring armies back onto a more even playing field.

I voted all armys

I guess Orks can't be cheesy!

I would vote none but it's not an option...

Yes, some armies are better than others but that is always going to happen when each army has wildly different stuff, and the codicies are written by different people.

I think any army can be deadly or op if the right commander is playing the army, and is very good with the army. True it's easier to play some armies or create that op list in certain armies...but I think all the armies have a set up that can be op. it also depends on what the opponent is playing, their list, and their commander skill level. There are too many variables to flat out call an army op IMO. The reason gk is number one on people's list as being op is largely due to the types of lists these guys are playing against...you know what the gk guy is going to bring to the table...ven dreads purifier spams counter it an the op is gone, and we get a new flavor of the week.

This thread will go nowhere. I can say right now that Crons, GK, and SW's are what I view as today's power houses. But that is based on my own experiences. Everyone else has their own experiences and because of it your probably never going to come up with a unbiased answer.

Though I do bet many will agree on at least 2 of the three I listed.

tau, they are the most broken army in the game, hell just look at vespids!!! S5 AP3 guns, thats insane and dont get me started on that kroot ox thing. their etherials are by far more broken than draigo

lets just hope their new codex balances everything out



so any way, there is no such thing as a broken army if you bother to sit down and look at the codex rather than listening to a load of but hurt from idiots who somehow think draigo is over powered and that marines with glowing swords are somehow better than normal marines. if your finding it hard to beat an army you need to do one of two things:

1: play better, rather than blaming your opponents codex take a good long look at your army and ask your self what it is that YOU did wrong that game

2: find out what o did wrong and find a way to prevent that from happening again

you are also going to get horrible match ups such as tau VS dark eldar who will be at quite a dissavantage or dark eldar against grey knights who wont have the range/fire power to deal with a fleet of raiders.

each codex has access to what you lot call cheese, tau, orks and GKs have wound allocation, dark eldar have mass dark lance/ splinter shots, sisters have celestine and exorcists, guard have a small bucket of heavy weapons....the list goes on. though saddly I can see this thread turning into another GK bashing thread by thenext page -_-

I was going to vote for orks, but they're so woefully awful they didn't even make it into the poll...

1. Grey Knights - They just reach levels of absurd that no other codex can compete with.

2. Space Wolves - They get everything Space Marines get + a hell of a lot more and all at a much cheaper points value.

3. Imperial Guard - They can spam the gak out of everything. Mech-Vet and Leafblower... Need I say more?

DPBellathrom wrote:tau, they are the most broken army in the game, hell just look at vespids!!! S5 AP3 guns, thats insane and dont get me started on that kroot ox thing. their etherials are by far more broken than draigo

lets just hope their new codex balances everything out
-

I agree with you that it is more about the general than the codex. But playing tau exclusively, I have to disagree with you. Not that we are broken (OHHH, yes we are, having a 7 year old codex doesnt help), but those broken elements are not strengths.

most tau players that have used vespid hate them. yes, their weapons are very nice, but the models are spendy and with only a range of 12", the vespids have to destroy the unit they seek.

If marines are in cover, then the vespid have no chance. 10 vespid, 5 will hit, 4 will wound, 2 cover saves,
by the math, the 180 point unit just took out 2 marines. OUCH. and like the rest of the tau, they are not that good in close combat. With a 12 inch range, they are getting assaulted next turn.

Kroot ox is pretty cool, I will give that one. And etherials are nice, but they have a horrid horrid backlash when they get sniped....

I dont think this will be a GK bashing thread, just a thread on who hates what codex the most

Dark Eldar. Those 10/10/10 vehicles are too fast. Also a 5++ invulnerable save?! Too cheesey...

Bat Manuel wrote:I guess Orks can't be cheesy!

Totally thought I got everyone, updated the poll.

Redbeard wrote:I was going to vote for orks, but they're so woefully awful they didn't even make it into the poll...

How so? Orks have multiple builds which can do well in the right hands. At the GT level they can be very viable especially in scenario game play where you need to control objectives. They can get boned in kill point missions. There are lots of opponents who stare at 3 Battlewagon / Roller lists and think "crap i'm screwed." Ever watch a guard player when a Ork army with 3 units of Lootas opens up on the Guard Armor 12 thanks? Do be effective, they have to be in range, thus are on equal footing of Orks. Scouting Deff Koptas are pretty sweet in the right hands. I've played quite a few GK players, and on turn 1 blew apart those pesky dreads and transports, and dropped Dreadknights in 1 turn with Lootas. Killa Kans into Grey Knights works out just fine, you might lose a kan, but you will grind them down.

I'm not disagreeing that Orks will struggle in some games. But they are often not simply blown off the table. I run a hybrid list which is Loota / Kan / Boy heavy. I did just fine this weekend, and got soundly trumped in Rd 5 with a king of the hill objective. I got trumped by the scenario, and an opponent who knew how to use his army effectively. He played that mission flawlessly, hats off to him. I don't think it matters when you run into that. He'd probably have beaten quite a few Grey Knight, Guard, or Dark Elder players in that game where you scored 1 point for each model on the middle objective, which the majority of the tables had terrain as they wouldn't have had the numbers he did.

oni wrote:1. Grey Knights - They just reach levels of absurd that no other codex can compete with.

2. Space Wolves - They get everything Space Marines get + a hell of a lot more and all at a much cheaper points value.

3. Imperial Guard - They can spam the gak out of everything. Mech-Vet and Leafblower... Need I say more?

I hear thoughts like this alot and can't help but think:

1) And they die like any other marine. But don't get meltas. Or much AT beyond S8 dreadnought AC's....

2) They don't get cheap SS+TH terms, FNP, characters that twin link meltas/flamers/etc, decent assault or bikes, etc. As to LF spam, MLs are just overcosted in the old codexes. If pred lcs weren't so overpriced and vindis didn't have the lose a weapon, now you are useless issue, you might see more variety. I also think it would help if most of their better stuff wasn't crammed into Elites with 1 good choice in FA, Heavy, etc.

3) Yes. "Leafblower" is a crappy mech hybrid that existed for all of 2 tournaments. Mech Vet is good- unless you can pop AV 12/10 from range and kill T3 dudes. But if they didn't have that, what would be the other options? Blobs? Then they would be crud. What this codex probably needs is for vendettas to lose transports capacity, hellhounds and russ crap (IE the non plain and non demolisher) variants get a price break, ogryns get some better options, HWT get reworked, etc. so mono builds aren't the only competitive way to play.

Jstncloud wrote:So I played a game this passed weekend against Necrons and boy was I blown away by some of their new stuff. Not only did it confuse the bejeebus out of me but the mind-shackle-scarabs and 36 inch tank shocks were completely catching me off guard. I've caught a bunch of crap for playing some games as Blood Angels. Since then we've had Necrons and Space Wolves fielded (as well as some Grey Kinghts) and I have seen some crazy stuff, stuff that made me feel a lot better about playing BAs from time to time since I could be using something else that is far more crazy (at least to me anyways).

Anyways, thought I'd get some feedback from Dakka.

Well being that your Necron opponent was not playing the codex correctly, it probably seemed alot better than it is. The only vehicle that can tank shock is the Monolith as it is the only tank. Couple a few more errors in his favor with your unfamiliarity with the codex and I'm sure it seemed like the most busted thing ever.

Icemyn wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:So I played a game this passed weekend against Necrons and boy was I blown away by some of their new stuff. Not only did it confuse the bejeebus out of me but the mind-shackle-scarabs and 36 inch tank shocks were completely catching me off guard. I've caught a bunch of crap for playing some games as Blood Angels. Since then we've had Necrons and Space Wolves fielded (as well as some Grey Kinghts) and I have seen some crazy stuff, stuff that made me feel a lot better about playing BAs from time to time since I could be using something else that is far more crazy (at least to me anyways).

Anyways, thought I'd get some feedback from Dakka.

Well being that your Necron opponent was not playing the codex correctly, it probably seemed alot better than it is. The only vehicle that can tank shock is the Monolith as it is the only tank. Couple a few more errors in his favor with your unfamiliarity with the codex and I'm sure it seemed like the most busted thing ever.

This I did not know, thanks, I have forwarded the information.

Orks are the most overpowered. They're the only army I can watch as my opponent's face drops at the prospect at having to kill over 200 models.

The tools are available to beat them, but thanks to the proliferation of parking lot armies, few people bring the anti-ork tools.

Jstncloud wrote:So I played a game this passed weekend against Necrons and boy was I blown away by some of their new stuff. Not only did it confuse the bejeebus out of me but the mind-shackle-scarabs and 36 inch tank shocks were completely catching me off guard. I've caught a bunch of crap for playing some games as Blood Angels. Since then we've had Necrons and Space Wolves fielded (as well as some Grey Kinghts) and I have seen some crazy stuff, stuff that made me feel a lot better about playing BAs from time to time since I could be using something else that is far more crazy (at least to me anyways).

Anyways, thought I'd get some feedback from Dakka.

Sooo, you openly admit you have no idea of what their rules are or how they play, but are suprised when you get beat? That sounds more like you didnt know what was what and your opponent took advantage of your ignorance. How does that correlate to overpowered?

buckero0 wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:So I played a game this passed weekend against Necrons and boy was I blown away by some of their new stuff. Not only did it confuse the bejeebus out of me but the mind-shackle-scarabs and 36 inch tank shocks were completely catching me off guard. I've caught a bunch of crap for playing some games as Blood Angels. Since then we've had Necrons and Space Wolves fielded (as well as some Grey Kinghts) and I have seen some crazy stuff, stuff that made me feel a lot better about playing BAs from time to time since I could be using something else that is far more crazy (at least to me anyways).

Anyways, thought I'd get some feedback from Dakka.

Sooo, you openly admit you have no idea of what their rules are or how they play, but are suprised when you get beat? That sounds more like you didnt know what was what and your opponent took advantage of your ignorance. How does that correlate to overpowered?

That is a small portion of it, it does not change the fact that they have a selection of tools that are awesome. Furthermore, as noted above, he pulled some maneuvers that are not legal (for which neither of us knew). Finally, please refrain from calling me (or referring to me) as ignorant. I'd prefer uninformed, I learn quickly in regards to games and as this is only my second time playing against the new Necrons there are some things that I am simply not familiar with. Watching Mind-Shackle-Scarabs on miniwargaming's videos is one thing, playing against them is another, one has to learn how to combat it, this does not however in any way mean that the things they can do (in my opinion) are not overly powerful.

Don't laugh at me but I think 6th will balance out 40k. I like what's Ward's done now that we've seen more Codices and how they work with one another. It's simply a matter of shaking off the blandness that we still have left over from 4th and 5th... In two years things will be better.

Henners91 wrote:Don't laugh at me but I think 6th will balance out 40k. I like what's Ward's done now that we've seen more Codices and how they work with one another. It's simply a matter of shaking off the blandness that we still have left over from 4th and 5th... In two years things will be better.

The problem is, in two years will the current codeces be terrible and the new ones blow them away. IE: will 6th ed Tau smash so hard everyone flocks to it and the old OP is so under-OP that no one plays it. GW makes sense with what it does, the newest and best armies sell, but if everything was somewhat on par I think the game would be more enjoyable, that is, with people playing what they want to play not just want 'can' win.

jazzpaintball wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:tau, they are the most broken army in the game, hell just look at vespids!!! S5 AP3 guns, thats insane and dont get me started on that kroot ox thing. their etherials are by far more broken than draigo

lets just hope their new codex balances everything out
-

I agree with you that it is more about the general than the codex. But playing tau exclusively, I have to disagree with you. Not that we are broken (OHHH, yes we are, having a 7 year old codex doesnt help), but those broken elements are not strengths.

most tau players that have used vespid hate them. yes, their weapons are very nice, but the models are spendy and with only a range of 12", the vespids have to destroy the unit they seek.

If marines are in cover, then the vespid have no chance. 10 vespid, 5 will hit, 4 will wound, 2 cover saves,
by the math, the 180 point unit just took out 2 marines. OUCH. and like the rest of the tau, they are not that good in close combat. With a 12 inch range, they are getting assaulted next turn.

Kroot ox is pretty cool, I will give that one. And etherials are nice, but they have a horrid horrid backlash when they get sniped....

I dont think this will be a GK bashing thread, just a thread on who hates what codex the most

.......computers suck at sarcasm :3 I know full well just how terribad a kroot ox, vespids and etherials are XD that being said koot are starting to supprise me on just how efective a blob unit of them can be but I wouldnt call cheese on them just yet lol

Jstncloud wrote:Finally, please refrain from calling me (or referring to me) as ignorant. I'd prefer uninformed,

Ignorant and uninformed mean the same thing.

I know that some armies have some units that are OP and when those units get spammed the whole army can be considered OP.

However, each of those builds can be beat by any other army if the dice gods are kind any you know how to explot the strengths of your own army.

However, having said that, some armies are just, no matter its strength level, unfun to play against. For myself GK fit into that category. No matter what the army is composed of, they are just unfun to play against, and that's worse than being OP.

Its not the case of an army is overpowered, it the list then stereotypical views of the army...

Example:

IG vendetta spam... any one who plays this list will think that IG are OP but most people know that this isn't the case, a further example is Venomspam anyone who plays that will think that DE are op (I am for one, of those people but only because I have only fought venomspam no other types of lists) but they are not.

The only reason why people complain why an army is OP is because of the spam lists and if you look in detail to each case of "Army X is OP because I cant beat them" is mainly because they have fought a spam list, therefore we should not be taking out our aggravation on an new army but more on spam lists...