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I wouldn't place too much credit in A Thousand Sons either way.

First, BL has always noted that they are taking their "own take" on the universe. With respect to Space Wolves, that could well mean moving a bit off from the canon because 1000 pages of roaring, drunk Vikings gets tedious fast.

Second, that particular book is set during the Horus Heresy, when Marines by and large were supposed far more rational, the Imperium far more enlightend, and everything a far, far cry from the superstitious "Dark Age" they fell into after the Heresy and in 40K. Again, with respect to Space Wolves, that likely applies ten times over as they've "mythologized" their past, their Primarch and how the Universe works even more than most.

Third, that particular book set during the Horus Heresy is further unique in trying to "flip" the usual perspective and present one of the formly "bad guys" as good guys and one of the formerly "good guys" as bad guys. Straining some established concepts to make that work was likely inevitable.

Fourth, even considering the 1 to 3 above, your reference is with respect to the Primarch, who by and large tend to play a "special role" anyhow, so I wouldn't take that as overtly representative of Space Wolves more generally (even Space Wolves in 30.000, not 40.000, presented as (in broad narrative roles) villains rather than heroes, and in a BL publication, rather than a GW-main publication).

The Space Wolves aren't the good guys, definitely.

They're unnecessarily arrogant, primarily.

Most importantly, though, they are borderline renegade, like many Space Marine chapters.

Ignoring Inquisitorial edicts and firing on Ecclesiarchy ships sounds good in the sense that the Inquisition and Eccleisarchy are bad, but it isn't itself good.

Picture this:

You work for the Federal Government. Recently, a force of US Marines has been accused of breaking their oaths or not complying with orders.

As soon as you arrive in your van to investigate, they open fire with bullets and rockets.

The Space Wolves are not good.

@Zweischneid,

I prefer to think of the book fluff as revelatory and not an 'interpretation', lol.

That said, sanctioned fluff is sanctioned fluff in my opinion. The Horus Heresy is far better written than many previous novels especially where the Wolves are concerned. I welcome a deeper thought process involving characterization and storyline.

As to some kind of degenerate process after the HH? you make a very interesting point. Ten thousand years is a long time. However, I've only read some of the Space Wolves omnibus though what I have read is pretty bad.

Then again, perhaps the Omnibus stories are typical of the tales the Wolves foster in order to maintain the mystique... and maybe the HH 'interpretation' is much closer to the truth.

Until someone definatively retcons the history completely we'll never know...

Just thoughts.

Spetulhu wrote:

Crimson-King2120 wrote:To be fair i think the eldar are the only good race in a sense that they are not trying to wipe all the other races out they mostly fight for survival.

And if the Farseers say they can save X amount of Eldar lives by sacrificing a thousand (or a million, or more) times that number of totally innocent humans, they will do it. Survival at any cost to bystanders isn't exactly "good".

So it is with almost every faction out there. The Tau might be using mind control or something, but at least they let you join them - few others would do so. Orks kill you because why not, but they don't hold any particular hatred for you. And so on.

I have yet to see any chapter that would have moral issues killing an Eldar, no matter if provoked or not, so if we go by that definition no chapter can be good,

Uhlan wrote:@Zweischneid,

I prefer to think of the book fluff as revelatory and not an 'interpretation', lol.

That said, sanctioned fluff is sanctioned fluff in my opinion. The Horus Heresy is far better written than many previous novels especially where the Wolves are concerned. I welcome a deeper thought process involving characterization and storyline.

As to some kind of degenerate process after the HH? you make a very interesting point. Ten thousand years is a long time. However, I've only read some of the Space Wolves omnibus though what I have read is pretty bad.

Then again, perhaps the Omnibus stories are typical of the tales the Wolves foster in order to maintain the mystique... and maybe the HH 'interpretation' is much closer to the truth.

Until someone definatively retcons the history completely we'll never know...

Just thoughts.

This post makes a big assumption; that the HH establishes the Space Wolves as smart. It doesn't. It never did. It's made clear that they're good at killing people, but also that they're savage, barbarian anti-intellectual boozers.

Uhlan wrote:@Zweischneid,

I prefer to think of the book fluff as revelatory and not an 'interpretation', lol.

That said, sanctioned fluff is sanctioned fluff in my opinion. The Horus Heresy is far better written than many previous novels especially where the Wolves are concerned. I welcome a deeper thought process involving characterization and storyline.

As to some kind of degenerate process after the HH? you make a very interesting point. Ten thousand years is a long time. However, I've only read some of the Space Wolves omnibus though what I have read is pretty bad.

Then again, perhaps the Omnibus stories are typical of the tales the Wolves foster in order to maintain the mystique... and maybe the HH 'interpretation' is much closer to the truth.

Until someone definatively retcons the history completely we'll never know...

Just thoughts.

Fair enough. It will be "revelatory" instead of 'interpretation' if it sticks. But either way, it's a recent tangent. It's not how people wrote about Space Wolves for GW even a few years ago. It's arguably not how even Kelly wrote about Space Wolves in the Codex when they stole Thunderhawks to cruise into town for gaks and giggles, some were literally raised by wolf-mothers jungle book-style and they generally enjoyed a good, harmless brawl.

As for the degeneration, I think the early books, especially the initial trilogy of the HH stressed that alot. All this talk of enlightment, of reason, of explicitly not worshiping anything, much less the Emperor. Garviel Loken as arguably the first protagonist of the series goes through entire chapters of soul-searching when he believes the the entire "mournival" affair is backward superstition and unworthy of Space Marines, etc. ,etc.. . It's not as strong a theme in a Thousand Sons specifically, but I do believe it is a strong theme overall of the series and, arguably, the entire 40K line long before BL was started, that 40K is sort of a supersticious galactic dark medieval time, and that the fall from grace started with the heresy. Hence the whole thing of STCs and "discovering technology." Of random words from the Emperor that have become absurd law in the Imperium, etc.. ,etc.. .

Omegus wrote:I don't buy the whole "they are pretending" argument. Sure, Russ is smarter than he appears, because he's a fething Primarch. But they still act like savages. We see it in the attitudes of the rank and file and command in many books. They are raised in an extremely violent and superstitious culture, and none of those superstitions are dispelled when they become Astartes (not even, or especially not, those blessed with the additional insight of a psyker).

In the 31st millennium, who are they pretending for? All humans are supposedly their allies, and any aliens they come across don't know a Viking barbarian from a Roman intellectual.

And again, none of this supposed intellectualism is ever brought to the fore, so if they really are pretending, they've bought their own act hook, line and sinker. If it acts like a duck, talks like a duck, walks like a duck, smells like a duck, and looks like a duck, well it's obviously a walrus. Please.

Yeah, they act like savages, but that's because they all grew up on a savage planet. And really, it's just their planet's warrior-culture - saying that they're savages is like calling indigenous peoples "savage" for their practices.

As much as I'm defending the Space Wolves, I certainly don't agree with the OP - they're far from the "only good guys" in 40k. A black and white morality does not apply to 40k at all, there's more of a compass. I'd argue that Space Wolves are good, but have some serious flaws which lend them some depth (stubborn, anti-authoritarian, violent, etc). If I had to classify them, I'd say they fit comfortably into Chaotic Good on the classic scale. The only bluntly "good" unit I could classify would be Ultramarines, but that's part of the reason why they're so boring.

The Space Wolves are the most honorable chapter. They don't let their honor become compromised by following the codex to the tee.

Oh the Inquisition wants to kill these people who fought by our side because they could be chaos tainted......Nope

Oh the Inquisition wants to check out the native fenrisian because of accusations of socery........Nope

Oh the Wolves go out and do unintentional altruistic deeds in the process of looking for a fight.

Yeah they are one of the nicer chapters but "good guys" don't exist in the IoM only heroes

Russ Mandarin wrote:The Space Wolves are the most honorable chapter. They don't let their honor become compromised by following the codex to the tee.

Oh the Inquisition wants to kill these people who fought by our side because they could be chaos tainted......Nope

Oh the Inquisition wants to check out the native fenrisian because of accusations of socery........Nope

Oh the Wolves go out and do unintentional altruistic deeds in the process of looking for a fight.

Yeah they are one of the nicer chapters but "good guys" don't exist in the IoM only heroes

Unintentional deeds can't really be altruistic if they really are unintentional. The two above that really just show their arrogance and unintelligence.

The Inquisition needs to eliminate the threat of spreading the taint of chaos. If it means people have to die, even those who have fought and lived, then it needs to happen. It's a stupid idea to allow that many people leave after witnessing what they had.

How is it honorable to deny a part of the organization they are supposed to be sworn to defend to look into accusations pertaining to that parts work? IE denying the Inquisition onto their homeworld. Not honorable.

Follow the codex to a tee? How many marines are supposed to be in a chapter again?

Russ Mandarin wrote:The Space Wolves are the most honorable chapter. They don't let their honor become compromised by following the codex to the tee.

Oh the Inquisition wants to kill these people who fought by our side because they could be chaos tainted......Nope

Oh the Inquisition wants to check out the native fenrisian because of accusations of socery........Nope

Oh the Wolves go out and do unintentional altruistic deeds in the process of looking for a fight.

Yeah they are one of the nicer chapters but "good guys" don't exist in the IoM only heroes

That is of course, unless they just happen to spring an unprovoked attack to slaughter some Sisters of Battle that happend to be flying by Fenris (e.g. "The Ecclesiarchy Comes to Fenris") or turn and tear into the backs of their own kind as soon as a bigger "Alpha" like Huron Blackheart promises better spoils (e.g. The Wolf of Fenris).

Hell, whatever bad has been written about the Grey Knights sacrifice of Sisters, at least they did it to fight against some daemonic shenenigan. The Wolves apparently slaughter the Ecclesiarchy just because they can.

TheGamer555 wrote:Grey knights, minis the exterminatus they are pretty good guys who kill deamons and chaos

Up until the moment that they need to be 'more holier' and bathe in the blood of Adepta Sororitas to battle minions of Khorne. (for instant headache, stop and think about it for a moment)

Zweischneid wrote:The Wolves apparently slaughter the Ecclesiarchy just because they can.

NOT exactly what happened. In fluff they invaded and started rounding people up IIRC, before being attacked by the SW.

BTW: the Tau pheromone thing is now up in the air as to being still in or not (meaning that along with a lot of the other stuff in Xenology, it's probably on it's way out) The Inquisition thinks that's how it works, but thus far, they have never found any actual proof of it. And there's the minor detail that it wouldn't work on anyone with their helmet on, as Tau armor suits, even the regular soldier ones, are full NBC sealed....

Space Wolves are heroic psychos. "Good guys"? No.

Why do people keep backing the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy? The Inquisition are super bad, trying to prevent the rebirth of the Emperor (y'all know about that? Look up Sensei or Star Child). Most likely because high up in the organisation they are corrupt. The emperor hates religion , so the Ecclesiarchy are f!@#s by default. They have created an army (even though they weren't allowed to). And go around killing in the Emperors name, even though he would disapprove (reminds me of real life).

Anyone who defies those two is ok in my book.

Besides, humanity must be destroyed to end Chaos. Go the Orks.

Notes from the Space Wolves' Codex, since many of you have apparently not read it.

pg 3, ..."their headstrong personalities and inherent sense of justice means that the SWs are forever waging war against the evils of the galaxy,"

pg 19, Honour's End: ..."the Flesh Tearers continue thier indiscriminate killing even after the Chaos renegades have been driven away. Despite Chapter Master Seth's insistence that his men are purging those that have been tainted by the presence of Chaos, the Space Wolves are outraged and attack the Flesh Tearers at once."

pg 19, "The Battle for Montberg Spaceport: "Imperial Command issues a high ruling for all Imperial forces to withdraw and leave the settlers of Thressiax to their fate so the Tyranids can be exterminated from space. Bran Redmaw, resupplying upon thresiax at the time, objects fiercely to this dictate. Though he himself cannot leave the front lines, he sends two squads Grey hunters to reinforce the vital spaceport of Montberg so the people of Thressiax can evacuate."

pg 23, 1st Armageddon War, Aftermath: "When Logan Grimnar heard of the treatment of his human allies upon Armageddon he flew into a great rage, and the insults and vows he rained upon the Lord Adepts of the Administratum would have made an Ork blush. The incident fell short of violence by the smallest of margins; only the counsel of Ulrik the Slayer stayed Grimnar's hand, lest civil war consume the rest of the tortured planet below. Still, since that day Grimnar has held an abiding hatred for the Aministratum, and his vows of vengeance for the heroes of Armageddon will one day be fulfilled."

pg 56, Logan Grimnar, The Great Wolf: "To say Logan is popular is to say the stars in the night sky are plentiful. He is the warrior king of the SWs, a wise and cunning leader of men whose adulation borders upon worship on many imperial worlds."

pg 95. " We maybe few, and our enemies many. Yet so long as there remains one of us still fighting, one who still rages in the name of justice and truth, then by the Allfather, the galaxy shall yet know hope" -- Ragnar Blackmane

I would quote from "A Thousand Sons", but I loaned it to a friend. The Emperor tells all at Nikaea that any that defy him he will destoryed. The fact that the Custodes and the Sillent Sisterhood were there clearly shows the Wolves had the Emperor's sanction. And both "A thousand Sons" and Porspero Burns" imply that this is not the first legion the Wolves have destroyed.

Magnus was doomed from the very begining. Tzeencth manipulated Magnus and Russ into the actions that led to the burning of Prospero. He wanted neither to stop the Heresy.

Nice Find crimson
I agree the wolves are a redeeming force.
Plus I surprised no one has mentioned the Imperial Fists.

Zweischneid wrote:I wouldn't place too much credit in A Thousand Sons either way.

First, BL has always noted that they are taking their "own take" on the universe. With respect to Space Wolves, that could well mean moving a bit off from the canon because 1000 pages of roaring, drunk Vikings gets tedious fast.

Second, that particular book is set during the Horus Heresy, when Marines by and large were supposed far more rational, the Imperium far more enlightend, and everything a far, far cry from the superstitious "Dark Age" they fell into after the Heresy and in 40K. Again, with respect to Space Wolves, that likely applies ten times over as they've "mythologized" their past, their Primarch and how the Universe works even more than most.

Third, that particular book set during the Horus Heresy is further unique in trying to "flip" the usual perspective and present one of the formly "bad guys" as good guys and one of the formerly "good guys" as bad guys. Straining some established concepts to make that work was likely inevitable.

Fourth, even considering the 1 to 3 above, your reference is with respect to the Primarch, who by and large tend to play a "special role" anyhow, so I wouldn't take that as overtly representative of Space Wolves more generally (even Space Wolves in 30.000, not 40.000, presented as (in broad narrative roles) villains rather than heroes, and in a BL publication, rather than a GW-main publication).

It's funny you should write all that, considering a good chunk of the evidence presented is from Prospero Burns, which sets the Space Wolves as protagonists. Russ may be smarter than he appears, but the rest of the Wolves appear pretty darn stupid. There's one guy who believes that all humans are useless if they aren't Space Marines, another still clings to the primitive superstitions of his tribal roots, and we see up close and personal both the culture they originate from (these people may be using Sky Magic! Let's paint our faces and slaughter every man, woman and child!) and how they live and interact with others (sit around in the dark, wet leopard growling at each other and playing dice, and lording over the "mortals" while working them to death). Yes, Russ is not a great representation of his Legion; they are in fact far worse.

A thousand or however many years later, we have Battle for the Fang, another Space Wolves-centric book. We have a Space Wolf character who urges caution and thinking clearly and not running off half-cocked across the universe to chase down hints of Magnus, and he is looked down upon by the rest of his Chapter as a big giant pussy and not "Space Wolf-like". The Chapter Master gladly sacrifices hundreds of his warriors, and indeed, the future of their whole Chapter, all for the opportunity to ineffectually gnash and bite at his perceived enemies.

And now you would argue that in the far darker and more primitive era of the 41st millennium, the Space Wolves are somehow more humane and mellow than they were in the 31st? This might be the only argument that finds some purchase, since Logan Grimnar comes across as a big softy. It doesn't make up for thousands of years of savagery, however, and it could be said that under Logan's auspices, the Space Wolves' policies towards the rest of the Imperium are borderline treasonous, if not outright renegade.

Kavish wrote:Space Wolves are heroic psychos. "Good guys"? No.

Why do people keep backing the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy? The Inquisition are super bad, trying to prevent the rebirth of the Emperor (y'all know about that? Look up Sensei or Star Child). Most likely because high up in the organisation they are corrupt. The emperor hates religion , so the Ecclesiarchy are f!@#s by default. They have created an army (even though they weren't allowed to). And go around killing in the Emperors name, even though he would disapprove (reminds me of real life).

The Inquisition is not preventing the rebirth of the Emperor, there are multiple sects that are divided on what to do because they don't know what result this would have. Civil war? Collapse of the golden throne barrier and a full-on daemonic invasion of Terra? The Inquisition was set up with the blessing of the Emperor through his proxy Malcador, and the inner circle are said to be granted audiences to commune with him. As for his hate of religion, the Emperor is nothing if not a creature of necessity. The Imperial Cult is all that keeps the Imperium together in the 41st millennium, so he would embrace it for lack of better options. When they started acting up and getting too full of themselves, he guided the Sisters of Battle to WTFpwn Vandire and all his ilk.

The SW are the only SM chapter that I have ever liked. I liked them because out of all of the SM chapters they seemed to retain their humanity. They seem to genuinely enjoy life both in the service and out. They live by their emotions, yet still have the intelligence and cunning needed to be the best at what they do. They honor and respect those who have fought with them and will forever fight for them with honor. They buck authority when they don't agree with it. Sometimes someone has to stand up and tell "the man" no. Just because their traditions may seem outdated, doesn't mean that they are wrong.

Space wolves will always be vikings in space in my mind. They fight the brutal fight, simply because it works. The fact that they have fun doing it is of little consequence as long as the results are for the benefit of the IOM as a whole, not necessarily for the benefit of the ruling political power .

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Yeah, they act like savages, but that's because they all grew up on a savage planet. And really, it's just their planet's warrior-culture - saying that they're savages is like calling indigenous peoples "savage" for their practices.

Yes, calling savage people with savage practices "savages" is wrong.

Anyway, I'll concede that moral outrage against the Space Wolves is probably misplaced, since the whole thing was planned by Tzeench and there's no getting around that. Russ and his dogs were downright despicable and made it too easy, but Logan's wolves are cut from a slightly different cloth. They are no less hateable due to their special snowflake status in the fluff and rules, but as a citizen of the 41st millennium, I would probably much rather run into Space Wolves than say, Black Templar, Flesh Tearers or Dark Angels.

Omegus wrote:

Kavish wrote:Space Wolves are heroic psychos. "Good guys"? No.

Why do people keep backing the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy? The Inquisition are super bad, trying to prevent the rebirth of the Emperor (y'all know about that? Look up Sensei or Star Child). Most likely because high up in the organisation they are corrupt. The emperor hates religion , so the Ecclesiarchy are f!@#s by default. They have created an army (even though they weren't allowed to). And go around killing in the Emperors name, even though he would disapprove (reminds me of real life).

The Inquisition is not preventing the rebirth of the Emperor, there are multiple sects that are divided on what to do because they don't know what result this would have. Civil war? Collapse of the golden throne barrier and a full-on daemonic invasion of Terra? The Inquisition was set up with the blessing of the Emperor through his proxy Malcador, and the inner circle are said to be granted audiences to commune with him. As for his hate of religion, the Emperor is nothing if not a creature of necessity. The Imperial Cult is all that keeps the Imperium together in the 41st millennium, so he would embrace it for lack of better options. When they started acting up and getting too full of themselves, he guided the Sisters of Battle to WTFpwn Vandire and all his ilk.

With the rebirth of the Emperor the golden throne barrier would be obsolete, no?

I guess your right about the Ecclesiarchy. I still don't like them.

Back on topic; Nobody is perfect. What is a "good guy" anyway. All in all, they (SW) are one of the most likeable chapters.

Russ Mandarin wrote:The Space Wolves are the most honorable chapter. They don't let their honor become compromised by following the codex to the tee.

Yeah, they'll just butcher an entire planet's civilian population (Prospero) and totally compromise their honor by following Horus to the tee.

Space marines the good guys? What kind of bizarro universe do you live in?

EVERYONE is evil. There is NO good. Only degrees of evil.

The imperium of man consign entire worlds to the sword if tainted (exterminatus).
The ruinous powers lackeys do the same to gain power.

Omegus wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Yeah, they act like savages, but that's because they all grew up on a savage planet. And really, it's just their planet's warrior-culture - saying that they're savages is like calling indigenous peoples "savage" for their practices.

Yes, calling savage people with savage practices "savages" is wrong.

Savage is ultimately a perspective.

Back on topic; Nobody is perfect. What is a "good guy" anyway. All in all, they (SW) are one of the most likeable chapters.

Sw are hardly one of the most like able chapters. Obviously this is a matter of opinion. However, it seems to me that to like the sw one must ignore or justify their particular flavor of extreme arrogance, ignorance, hypocrasy, and barbarism.


Also, the fluff from any codex always casts its faction in the best light (maybe not de, they revel in their evil). C:SM tells us that ultra smurphs are the epitome of everything all space marines should aspire to. C:BA tells us that BA's are the noblest of space marines because they know that one day they'll go crazy so they spend all the time they have available to them protecting the imperium. Codices are like propaganda, the fluff novels seem to give a more accurate description of things.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Yeah, they act like savages, but that's because they all grew up on a savage planet. And really, it's just their planet's warrior-culture - saying that they're savages is like calling indigenous peoples "savage" for their practices.

Yes, calling savage people with savage practices "savages" is wrong.

Savage is ultimately a perspective.

I would say it's not so much a matter of perspective, as a sliding scale. Even the most civilized humans look like poop-flinging monkeys to Eldar, for example. Wolves are pretty far down on that scale.

Phiasco II wrote:Sw are hardly one of the most like able chapters. Obviously this is a matter of opinion. However, it seems to me that to like the sw one must ignore or justify their particular flavor of extreme arrogance, ignorance, hypocrasy, and barbarism.


Also, the fluff from any codex always casts its faction in the best light (maybe not de, they revel in their evil). C:SM tells us that ultra smurphs are the epitome of everything all space marines should aspire to. C:BA tells us that BA's are the noblest of space marines because they know that one day they'll go crazy so they spend all the time they have available to them protecting the imperium. Codices are like propaganda, the fluff novels seem to give a more accurate description of things.

Well, to be completely fair, the average citizen of the 41st millennium is not privy to the inner workings of Astartes enough to be aware of any incidents of arrogance, ignorance or hypocrisy. With barbarism you may have a point, since Wolves go out of their way to cultivate that image, but then again, most citizens get all four of those things in full measure from their local Administratum on a daily basis, so getting that from Space Marines would be no big shock and they do have the whole larger-than-life-epic-hero thing going for them.

But yes, codices are essentially propaganda for their faction, and whatever philanthropic actions a Chapter may undertake is unlikely to spread to the citizentry. I doubt there are people walking around saying, "Hey, did you hear about that giant daemonic invasion of Armaggeddon? Well, apparently the Administratum and Inquisition decided to castrate and imprison all the survivors, but Logan totally disagreed with them. What a swell guy!"

Its actually probably a very small number (when looking at that IOM as a whole) of people who have even ever seen a space marine, let alone fought along side one. I'm sure the average citizen thinks all chapters are pretty swell guys, the propoganda machine being one of the more finely tuned instrucments in all of the IOM.

Everything that they have ever heard regarding space marines was done with honor, precision, and efficiency with uncalculable losses to the enemy and a tragic fallen hero who's efforts will be sorely missed in the battles to follow.

So to the average IOM citizen, unless the culling is actually happening to you, all SM factions are probably the good guys. And it not like it has ever been anything different. The SM and current ruling system have been around for 10,000 years. Its not exactly like anything has changed from anyone perspective. Even a mans great great great grandpa would tell the same story as the kid looking out his front window today.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:The Wolves apparently slaughter the Ecclesiarchy just because they can.

NOT exactly what happened. In fluff they invaded and started rounding people up IIRC, before being attacked by the SW.
.

I must have missed the invasion there somewhere>

"A quorum of Ecclesiarchy officials approach Fenris, intending to inspect and assess the Space Wolves after hearing rumours of the worship of pagan gods. Amazingly, the Space Wolves open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy as soon as they come in range of the Fang's guns" (p. 19).

Where exactly is the invasion before the Wolves start shooting without warning? Rounding up people? They haven't even landed!!! Are you just making gak up to justify your view of the Wolves instead of reading?

Zweischneid wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:The Wolves apparently slaughter the Ecclesiarchy just because they can.

NOT exactly what happened. In fluff they invaded and started rounding people up IIRC, before being attacked by the SW.
.

I must have missed the invasion there somewhere>

"A quorum of Ecclesiarchy officials approach Fenris, intending to inspect and assess the Space Wolves after hearing rumours of the worship of pagan gods. Amazingly, the Space Wolves open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy as soon as they come in range of the Fang's guns" (p. 19).

Where exactly is the invasion before the Wolves start shooting without warning? Rounding up people? They haven't even landed!!! Are you just making gak up to justify your view of the Wolves instead of reading?

I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy broadcast something along the lines that they were visiting. You don't just show up in anothers occupied system without some sort of announcement. Then when asked why they were visiting and the Wolves were told they were to stand down and allow them access planet side to asset their heathinistic ways. Well, I can see why the wolves responded how they did. Fenris is their system, has been for over 10,000 years, no reason to change now.

As for sw "cultivating" the image of barbarians whilst really being quite clever and intelligent, I don't buy it. Russ yes, he was a primarch after all, but not his mongrels.

One of my favorite quotes comes from Terry Pratchet. I don't know the exact wording off the top of my head but it goes something like this.

Carrot was indeed simple. Where people made the mistake was confusing simple for stupid.

And thats just it, SW seem brutal, barbaric, and simplistic on the surface. But they are never stupid about how they do things. And this gives them an edge. Brutality works, just ask the orks. However, if there is intelligence behind the brutality, where you fight on your terms, you play the roll of hunter never prey, then you can cultivate an aura of fear in your enemies, thus making your job even that much easier.

Jayden63 wrote:One of my favorite quotes comes from Terry Pratchet. I don't know the exact wording off the top of my head but it goes something like this.

Carrot was indeed simple. Where people made the mistake was confusing simple for stupid.

And thats just it, SW seem brutal, barbaric, and simplistic on the surface. But they are never stupid about how they do things. And this gives them an edge. Brutality works, just ask the orks. However, if there is intelligence behind the brutality, where you fight on your terms, you play the roll of hunter never prey, then you can cultivate an aura of fear in your enemies, thus making your job even that much easier.

While I really hate the effort to compare Carrot to the SW, a huge stretch IMHO, I must admit that I love the discworld reference. Infact, I lol'd when I read your post because I'm listening to another of Pratchet's books even as I did so (Hat Full of Sky). Great book series. Not quite as grim dark as 40k though

Jayden63 wrote:

I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy broadcast something along the lines that they were visiting. You don't just show up in anothers occupied system without some sort of announcement. Then when asked why they were visiting and the Wolves were told they were to stand down and allow them access planet side to asset their heathinistic ways. Well, I can see why the wolves responded how they did. Fenris is their system, has been for over 10,000 years, no reason to change now.

I thought Fenris was part of the Imperium.

Either way, I don't disagree.

It just boggles my mind that, on one side, the self-less and heroic sacrifice of Sisters to actually fend of a major, existential daemonic threat is seen as evidence of "holier than thou", while the random surprise-slaughter of Sisters because you just don't like visitors from the very same humanity you supposedly defend is perfectly in line with the untainted heroics of the "only good guys" in 40K.

Somewhere in there is a serious problem of double-standards.