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Jayden63 wrote:

I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy broadcast something along the lines that they were visiting. You don't just show up in anothers occupied system without some sort of announcement. Then when asked why they were visiting and the Wolves were told they were to stand down and allow them access planet side to asset their heathinistic ways. Well, I can see why the wolves responded how they did. Fenris is their system, has been for over 10,000 years, no reason to change now.

So if I'm an IRS auditor, and I go to the state of Texas with my buddies (of course telling them that "I'm coming to check out your state for potential tax evasion"), then it's perfectly fine for the Texas National Guard and State Police to open fire as soon as I am in range of their tanks and artillery? Because "Texas is OUR state and no other?"

I suppose the Space Wolves fail to realize that Fenris is an Imperial world first and foremost.

As for your second part, not it hasn't been "their" system. It has been an Imperial system, from which the Space Wolves were able to recruit and were granted Governance by the grace of the Emperor.

dreadfury101 wrote:Ive been reading up on the fluff of space wolves and it seems to me that they are the only "good guys" in the whole universe. they have a code, They stand up for the weak, they call the imperium on its BS ( see defying orders to save lives and families) They spit in the face of the imperium when it is necessary and they dont take no s%$# from anyone. When you compare the fluff of Space puppies to say the GK or the grind house guard it seems that SW are the only ones who still have.... the word i want to use is "humanity"..... maybe im off the mark but they remind me a lot of US marines (i grew up around those guys they all seem very space wolfy).

They sound like Heretics to me

In all honesty though, this is part of what makes the SW's a very love them/hate them faction. Some people like that they often come off as the "good guys". Others find it to be hypocritical and very forced and/or sappy in a bad way, the "we're tough but really are sweethearts, we're never on the wrong side!" which sorta defeats the whole psycho-indoctrinated-genetically-engineered-super-soldier-fighting-for-a-malevolent-empire thing.

Avoid equating them to any real life organizations like the US Marine Corps, too much controversy and imagined parallels and wide divergences of thought/action/etc.


That said, don't doubt for a moment that they won't do evil things. They wouldn't bat an eye to slaughtering Eldar/Tau civilians, and probably don't pay a whole lot of attention to collateral damage either with regards to humans.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy broadcast something along the lines that they were visiting. You don't just show up in anothers occupied system without some sort of announcement. Then when asked why they were visiting and the Wolves were told they were to stand down and allow them access planet side to asset their heathinistic ways. Well, I can see why the wolves responded how they did. Fenris is their system, has been for over 10,000 years, no reason to change now.

So if I'm an IRS auditor, and I go to the state of Texas with my buddies (of course telling them that "I'm coming to check out your state for potential tax evasion"), then it's perfectly fine for the Texas National Guard and State Police to open fire as soon as I am in range of their tanks and artillery? Because "Texas is OUR state and no other?"

I suppose the Space Wolves fail to realize that Fenris is an Imperial world first and foremost.

As for your second part, not it hasn't been "their" system. It has been an Imperial system, from which the Space Wolves were able to recruit and were granted Governance by the grace of the Emperor.

Depends on your mentality. The Ecclesiarchy is not the Administration. They have nothing to do with taxes, levies, citizenship, etc. The stuff that makes the IOM go round. The church was there looking for heretics, using their own definition of heretic. The citizens of Fenris have been allowed to do what they do since the days of the Emperor and the first foundings. Why should the SW allow themselves to be audited when they were given Governance (as you so put it) by the big E himself?

Also in the short fluff piece it just said that the wolves fired upon the ships coming into their system. Said nothing of boarding parties and hanging heads on spikes, as near as I read it could just have been warning shots in the same way an old geezer yells "Git off my lawn" at passing kids. It was only when the Ecclesiarchy showed up with fleets of sisters that the Wolves truly bared their fangs and things got messy. The Ecclesiarchy brought this on themselves by choosing force rather than diplomacy.

And yes, the Fenris system is their system. Just like Ultramar and its system is under the control of the Ultramarines, and X system is under the control of X marines. Each chapter is responsible for the defense, propagation, and maintenance of their systems. Each have a different opinion on how to accomplish this Govenership, but as long as it all functions for the good of the IOM each are usually left to their devices. Sure the individual chapters, administration, and who knows how many other organizations might disagree on the best way to deal with it, but that doesn't mean they are wrong.

Also the Wolves have been doing what they have been doing since before the HH, pretty much ever since Russ was found by the Emperor. Thats a long history of fighting the good fight. Its the overall body of work not necessarily the how/why of the individual skirmishes that matter after 10,000 years. Of course mistakes have been made, collaterial damage of the unfortunate kind has happened somewhere to someone as a direct result of the Wolves actions. But its the same for all the legions now chapters. Also while its obvious that the Wolves haven't won every contest they have been involved in they win enough (along with all other SM chapters and/or guard regiments) to keep the IOM in a stalemate of perpetual war. Just like the fluff background intended.

Jayden63 wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy broadcast something along the lines that they were visiting. You don't just show up in anothers occupied system without some sort of announcement. Then when asked why they were visiting and the Wolves were told they were to stand down and allow them access planet side to asset their heathinistic ways. Well, I can see why the wolves responded how they did. Fenris is their system, has been for over 10,000 years, no reason to change now.

So if I'm an IRS auditor, and I go to the state of Texas with my buddies (of course telling them that "I'm coming to check out your state for potential tax evasion"), then it's perfectly fine for the Texas National Guard and State Police to open fire as soon as I am in range of their tanks and artillery? Because "Texas is OUR state and no other?"

I suppose the Space Wolves fail to realize that Fenris is an Imperial world first and foremost.

As for your second part, not it hasn't been "their" system. It has been an Imperial system, from which the Space Wolves were able to recruit and were granted Governance by the grace of the Emperor.

Depends on your mentality. The Ecclesiarchy is not the Administration. They have nothing to do with taxes, levies, citizenship, etc. The stuff that makes the IOM go round. The church was there looking for heretics, using their own definition of heretic. The citizens of Fenris have been allowed to do what they do since the days of the Emperor and the first foundings. Why should the SW allow themselves to be audited when they were given Governance (as you so put it) by the big E himself?

Also in the short fluff piece it just said that the wolves fired upon the ships coming into their system. Said nothing of boarding parties and hanging heads on spikes, as near as I read it could just have been warning shots in the same way an old geezer yells "Git off my lawn" at passing kids. It was only when the Ecclesiarchy showed up with fleets of sisters that the Wolves truly bared their fangs and things got messy. The Ecclesiarchy brought this on themselves by choosing force rather than diplomacy.

And yes, the Fenris system is their system. Just like Ultramar and its system is under the control of the Ultramarines, and X system is under the control of X marines. Each chapter is responsible for the defense, propagation, and maintenance of their systems. Each have a different opinion on how to accomplish this Govenership, but as long as it all functions for the good of the IOM each are usually left to their devices. Sure the individual chapters, administration, and who knows how many other organizations might disagree on the best way to deal with it, but that doesn't mean they are wrong.

Also the Wolves have been doing what they have been doing since before the HH, pretty much ever since Russ was found by the Emperor. Thats a long history of fighting the good fight. Its the overall body of work not necessarily the how/why of the individual skirmishes that matter after 10,000 years. Of course mistakes have been made, collaterial damage of the unfortunate kind has happened somewhere to someone as a direct result of the Wolves actions. But its the same for all the legions now chapters. Also while its obvious that the Wolves haven't won every contest they have been involved in they win enough (along with all other SM chapters and/or guard regiments) to keep the IOM in a stalemate of perpetual war. Just like the fluff background intended.

I see your point but unfortunately, the Ecclesiarchy has a seat on the High-Lords of Terra, the Space Wolves do not. This means that they are a higher authority, and their edicts are relevant to the governance of the Imperium.

And while the Space Wolves are allowed to govern their world, that does not mean that they can ignore Imperial law. I could govern the state of Texas, but I could not ignore Federal Law (at least not without causing conflict and looking silly (California)).

And even if they didn't cause any casualties, simply shooting at an official of the government who is ordained by said government and sent by a member of said government is to commit a crime, in my book. Even if you're just trying to get them to go away: it's not the government's job to just "go away" when they see something awry.

EDIT:

As for fighting the "good fight" that doesn't exempt you from the edicts of the Imperium either. Many, many, many groups have been declared heretics or traitors because of some perceived slight, even if they fought the good fight.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

I see your point but unfortunately, the Ecclesiarchy has a seat on the High-Lords of Terra, the Space Wolves do not. This means that they are a higher authority, and their edicts are relevant to the governance of the Imperium.

And while the Space Wolves are allowed to govern their world, that does not mean that they can ignore Imperial law. I could govern the state of Texas, but I could not ignore Federal Law (at least not without causing conflict and looking silly (California)).

And even if they didn't cause any casualties, simply shooting at an official of the government who is ordained by said government and sent by a member of said government is to commit a crime, in my book. Even if you're just trying to get them to go away: it's not the government's job to just "go away" when they see something awry.

EDIT:

As for fighting the "good fight" that doesn't exempt you from the edicts of the Imperium either. Many, many, many groups have been declared heretics or traitors because of some perceived slight, even if they fought the good fight.

And to be fair, the fact that they are a first founding chapter of the champions of the IOM as set up by the big E does give them some armor against retaliatory actions for their transgressions. It just is the way that it is. In a dystopian future the rebels, those still retaining their free will, even if outlaws, can become idols and heros. Maybe they do rely on this tag more than other chapters. Always pushing the limits as it were. But that's not necessarily a bad thing as long as you still focus your efforts on the good of Man. Which no one can say the SW have not done.

And this is why some of us really like the SW. They are willing to tell the higher ups to go stick it when they start poking around. Its also just a simple situation as that we the readers don't necessarily like the same things. I myself cant stand the BA for all the reason why my buddy loves them. When you deal with things like bucking authority and/or heretical practices its rather easy to sit on one side of the fence and not everyone who reads the fluff is going to choose the same side.

Also note, I have never once claimed the SW to be the good guys of the SM chapters (just to stay on the OP topic). I fully recognize that they are capable and have commited various heinous acts of violence, prejudice, and the like. Its just out of all the chapters (for me anyway) they seem like they retained some of their humanity or even free will in the transformation into the perceived universal standard that is a Space Marine of the IOM.

Kaldor wrote:The space wolves are biggoted, anti-authoritarian, drunkards with anger management issues. They aren't some noble oversight committee who 'calls the Imperium on their BS', they are a spoiled teenager who screams 'you can't tell me what to do!' and throws a tantrum.

Sounds like the Grey Knights, minus the alcohol.

By the token you presented you say they are knights of old and have a code of chivalry. However "good" means different things to different people. For example I may think good means donating much of my money but my neighbor might think good is volentering at the homeless shelter. The Tau are for the good of everyone but people think they are bad. The IG and SM are guardians of mankind, but they don't have code so are they bad? For your answer I'd answer no but you do have a point.

Zweischneid wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:The Wolves apparently slaughter the Ecclesiarchy just because they can.

NOT exactly what happened. In fluff they invaded and started rounding people up IIRC, before being attacked by the SW.
.

I must have missed the invasion there somewhere>

"A quorum of Ecclesiarchy officials approach Fenris, intending to inspect and assess the Space Wolves after hearing rumours of the worship of pagan gods. Amazingly, the Space Wolves open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy as soon as they come in range of the Fang's guns" (p. 19).

Where exactly is the invasion before the Wolves start shooting without warning? Rounding up people? They haven't even landed!!! Are you just making gak up to justify your view of the Wolves instead of reading?

Ah, I see, we're talking about two different incidents. I was talking about the first one where Cardinal Bucharis attacked Fenris with most of Battlefleet Pacificus, invaded, and laid siege to the Fang. (Sisters of Battle, 2nd Edition, Page 39 and 40)

Crimson Devil wrote:Notes from the Space Wolves' Codex, since many of you have apparently not read it.

pg 3, ..."their headstrong personalities and inherent sense of justice means that the SWs are forever waging war against the evils of the galaxy,"

It is not and has never been the task of a spacemarine chapter to judge who is right or wrong. This job usualy goes to people who have a better understanding of the Imperium.

Crimson Devil wrote:
pg 19, Honour's End: ..."the Flesh Tearers continue thier indiscriminate killing even after the Chaos renegades have been driven away. Despite Chapter Master Seth's insistence that his men are purging those that have been tainted by the presence of Chaos, the Space Wolves are outraged and attack the Flesh Tearers at once. "

As savage as the Flesh Tearers are, they might have had a point. The taint of chaos is so insidious, so utterly dangerous that the wholescale slaughter of those who came into contact with it can be justified.
Allowing a possibly tainted population to survive can have bad repercussions, although the final decision on what to do with them should lie with the legitimate authorities and not the Astartes.

Crimson Devil wrote:
pg 19, "The Battle for Montberg Spaceport: "Imperial Command issues a high ruling for all Imperial forces to withdraw and leave the settlers of Thressiax to their fate so the Tyranids can be exterminated from space. Bran Redmaw, resupplying upon thresiax at the time, objects fiercely to this dictate. Though he himself cannot leave the front lines, he sends two squads Grey hunters to reinforce the vital spaceport of Montberg so the people of Thressiax can evacuate."

That's actualy a quite honorable deed although Imperial Command's decision was probably justified ( although one has to wonder what two squads could achieve against the Hivefleet that the Imperial Guard couldn't).

Crimson Devil wrote:
pg 23, 1st Armageddon War, Aftermath: "When Logan Grimnar heard of the treatment of his human allies upon Armageddon he flew into a great rage, and the insults and vows he rained upon the Lord Adepts of the Administratum would have made an Ork blush. The incident fell short of violence by the smallest of margins; only the counsel of Ulrik the Slayer stayed Grimnar's hand, lest civil war consume the rest of the tortured planet below. Still, since that day Grimnar has held an abiding hatred for the Aministratum, and his vows of vengeance for the heroes of Armageddon will one day be fulfilled."

Eliminating the survivors of Armageddon was the logical decision. The war was a full scale daemonic incursion lead by a daemonprimarch and noone, except perhaps the Astartes and servants of the Inquisition, survives such a thing unscathed. Allowing the taint of chaos to spread would have possibly caused much more death and misery than doing what the Administratum did to the people of Armageddon.

dreadfury101 wrote:Ive been reading up on the fluff of space wolves and it seems to me that they are the only "good guys" in the whole universe. they have a code, They stand up for the weak, they call the imperium on its BS ( see defying orders to save lives and families) They spit in the face of the imperium when it is necessary and they dont take no s%$# from anyone. When you compare the fluff of Space puppies to say the GK or the grind house guard it seems that SW are the only ones who still have.... the word i want to use is "humanity"..... maybe im off the mark but they remind me a lot of US marines (i grew up around those guys they all seem very space wolfy).

an internet cookie for your thoughts?

Look up the Salamanders and you'd be suprised

Unit1126PLL wrote:I see your point but unfortunately, the Ecclesiarchy has a seat on the High-Lords of Terra, the Space Wolves do not. This means that they are a higher authority, and their edicts are relevant to the governance of the Imperium.

But the Ecclesiarchy is not alone on the council - there's usually 12-15 High Lords aren't there? To get all of them to actually back the church against a first founding Chapter is likely almost impossible without a really good reason, so the church has no real help from that seat.

Very interesting so far here is my first chunk of change.

- Salamanders are considered very good.

- Black Templars are zealous efficient jerks who care more about killing xenos than protecting civilians (See Helsreach)

- Raven Guard go out of their way to help the little guys (Imperial Guard regiments with little to no support and excel at killing orks). Their own organization is pretty loose as to give maximum flexiblity.

As for the Wolves, Magnus said it himself (quote is more or less accurate as I do not have the book next to me) He describes the Wolves "The perfect incarnation of my father's vision."

Erik_Morkai wrote:

As for the Wolves, Magnus said it himself (quote is more or less accurate as I do not have the book next to me) He describes the Wolves "The perfect incarnation of my father's vision."

I don't remember anything like that being said, so a quote is definitely going to be needed.

Kavish wrote:I guess your right about the Ecclesiarchy. I still don't like them.

The Ecclesiarchy are the worst of the worst. But they're supposed to be. They're a hyperbolic representation of the extremes to which an extremely powerful state sponsored religious organization can be. Essentially the worst of every theocracy in the history of mankind rolled into one.

The Inquisition operates in the same gray area as everyone else. Their ruthlessness is often misunderstood by others in the Imperium, however, ultimately, their goals are right. If the Space Wolves and the Inquisition have clashed, it is mostly because of their differing values, not typically because one is right and the other is wrong.

By my math the incident described on page 19 of the Space Wolves Codex comes approximately 500 years after the First Armageddon War.

In the aftermath of the first Armageddon war, the Space Wolves knew what fate awaited those found less than pure in the eyes of the powers that be. They also knew that they themselves would not be found pure as their beliefs were far too divergent to satisfy the stringent inspection that was to come.

Also, as Logan had all but come to blows with the powers that be at the end of the First Armageddon War there was every reason to believe that this was intended to be some sort of pretense for a payback.

So yeah, the Wolves opened fire because they saw the inspection as the first step in an attempt to have them branded as heretics and traitors and exterminated, or worse.

Let's not forget the Ultramarines run some of the best places to live in the Imperium.

Jefffar wrote:By my math the incident described on page 19 of the Space Wolves Codex comes approximately 500 years after the First Armageddon War.

In the aftermath of the first Armageddon war, the Space Wolves knew what fate awaited those found less than pure in the eyes of the powers that be. They also knew that they themselves would not be found pure as their beliefs were far too divergent to satisfy the stringent inspection that was to come.

Also, as Logan had all but come to blows with the powers that be at the end of the First Armageddon War there was every reason to believe that this was intended to be some sort of pretense for a payback.

So yeah, the Wolves opened fire because they saw the inspection as the first step in an attempt to have them branded as heretics and traitors and exterminated, or worse.

Thanx, now I feel much better about what my DA do.

My two cents:
1. Salamanders, Raven Guard (to an extent) and Ultramarines are good, always looking out for the civies. Also IIRC when the Ultras and Tau had to join up to defeat the Necrons Calgar gave the Tau time to leave the planet before issuing exterminatus.

2.SW have their good and their bad points. While they may not be the best they're sertainly not as bad as:

3. The Grey Knights.
GK 1: I feel like being more holy today! How shall we do it?
GK 2: I know lets have a nice soak in some SOB blood"
GK 1: Great idea! I mean who can stop us?

So this is my opinion, I absolutely despise the Wolves, for after Reading "A Thousand Sons" i found them to be foolish and too battle hungry, how could they destroy their own brothers a millenia ago ( give or take ) and now in the 41st Millenium still belive their predecessers were right in doing so? How can they be so sure in mind that they destroyed followers of Chaos in the name of the Emperor? I know it was Horus that fooled Russ into attacking Magnus but i still hate them for the way their mentality in the 41st Millenium , for still being blind to the truth to the Events on Prospero, and believing what they did was right. But thats just my opinion. And as for the US Marines reference, I do indeed see a bit of the Wolf in them, Infantry Marines at least, Im a US Navy Corpsman ( an Apothecary basically)

Erik_Morkai wrote:As for the Wolves, Magnus said it himself (quote is more or less accurate as I do not have the book next to me) He describes the Wolves "The perfect incarnation of my father's vision."

Of course, being Magnus he probably meant it in as insulting a way possible, as in: the Emperor created the Space Marines to be savage killers, and that is exactly what the Space Wolves are, nothing more.

Also killing xenos IS protecting the weak indirectly.

Phiasco II wrote:

Erik_Morkai wrote:

As for the Wolves, Magnus said it himself (quote is more or less accurate as I do not have the book next to me) He describes the Wolves "The perfect incarnation of my father's vision."

I don't remember anything like that being said, so a quote is definitely going to be needed.

Found it.

"I no longer think of them as animals, Ahmuz, though I once did. I now think of them as purest of us. Incorruptible. Single-minded. The perfection of my father's vision."
- Magnus, From Battle of the Fang

Upon looking at the statue of Russ if I recall
"imagine that - The master of Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly, you were the attack dog of the Emperor."
- Magnus, Battle of the Fang

Erik_Morkai wrote:

Phiasco II wrote:

Erik_Morkai wrote:

As for the Wolves, Magnus said it himself (quote is more or less accurate as I do not have the book next to me) He describes the Wolves "The perfect incarnation of my father's vision."

I don't remember anything like that being said, so a quote is definitely going to be needed.

Found it.

"I no longer think of them as animals, Ahmuz, though I once did. I now think of them as purest of us. Incorruptible. Single-minded. The perfection of my father's vision."
- Magnus, From Battle of the Fang

Yes. The idea of the Space Marines was to conquer the Galaxy. To be single minded killing machines. To be loyal to the Emperor and his vision eternally. But most Legions weren't. Many were pleagued with imperfection. The Thousand Sons were dabbling in psykic powers. The Emperor's Children far too concerned with perfection of everything (ironic that it could be called an imperfection). The Word Bearers defying his Will and claiming Him to be a god. You can find a "problem" with pretty much every Legion.

And then there is the Space Wolves. I don't like them, but they seem to be the truest form of Astartes. Again though, I don't like them.

Jefffar wrote:
So yeah, the Wolves opened fire because they saw the inspection as the first step in an attempt to have them branded as heretics and traitors and exterminated, or worse.

Again, this overlooks that every previous (known) visit to Fenris by said was begun with orbital bombardment once they got in range, as well...

Jefffar wrote:

So yeah, the Wolves opened fire because they saw the inspection as the first step in an attempt to have them branded as heretics and traitors and exterminated, or worse.

Maybe that's a clue right there. No one else is immune to inspection for possible corruption, why should the sw be? To go so far as to attack your own allies kinda implies you have something to hide. The sw are just this side of chaos. Like I've said before, the chaos gods have no better tool to use against the imperium then their mongrel pawns, the sw.

Kind of thought a lot about this too. They live by a code that is uniformly dedicated and loyal, regardless of chastization by their peers or the inquisition. They're loyal to their past, their traditions and the emperor and his will.

Phiasco II wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

So yeah, the Wolves opened fire because they saw the inspection as the first step in an attempt to have them branded as heretics and traitors and exterminated, or worse.

Maybe that's a clue right there. No one else is immune to inspection for possible corruption, why should the sw be? To go so far as to attack your own allies kinda implies you have something to hide. The sw are just this side of chaos. Like I've said before, the chaos gods have no better tool to use against the imperium then their mongrel pawns, the sw.

As are the Blood Angels.

Apothecary8404Talos wrote:So this is my opinion, I absolutely despise the Wolves, for after Reading "A Thousand Sons" i found them to be foolish and too battle hungry, how could they destroy their own brothers a millenia ago ( give or take ) and now in the 41st Millenium still belive their predecessers were right in doing so? How can they be so sure in mind that they destroyed followers of Chaos in the name of the Emperor? I know it was Horus that fooled Russ into attacking Magnus but i still hate them for the way their mentality in the 41st Millenium , for still being blind to the truth to the Events on Prospero, and believing what they did was right. But thats just my opinion. And as for the US Marines reference, I do indeed see a bit of the Wolf in them, Infantry Marines at least, Im a US Navy Corpsman ( an Apothecary basically)

Having been a Marine, I think we're a little less hairy and a lot more disciplined, lol.

Probably drink the same amount.


As far as Prospero and the Space Wolves go, you have to remember what you know, as a reader/gamer, is far more than the average person in 40K knows.

What do the Space Wolves know? The Emperor said the Thousand Sons were bad, tainted, and had to be destroyed. They went to Prospero, found mutated Space Marines, and destroyed them. Subsequently, they've seen plenty of evidence of the 1KSons working for Chaos. Seems like that pretty much confirms that they were right all along. They don't know even 10% of what we the readers know about what really happened, and probably would have no reason to believe it even if they did.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Having been a Marine, I think we're a little less hairy and a lot more disciplined, lol.
Probably drink the same amount.

I dunno about that, I've seen some, who were no credit to the uniform, who were both less disciplined AND hairier. Though their intense drunkenness probably contributed to the former and the ensuing barfight by pointing out the latter.


Remember kids, don't try this at home! Only the professional drunks at the Navy should ever, under any circumstances, pick fights with Marines, to then be extracted by their much more sober and better prepared (and looking) brother in law who then reminds them he told them so while laying some leathernecks out with a logging chain.

You know who you are....

Salamanders are definitely the most "human" of the Space Marie Chapters.