Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

SickSix wrote:

Phiasco II wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

So yeah, the Wolves opened fire because they saw the inspection as the first step in an attempt to have them branded as heretics and traitors and exterminated, or worse.

Maybe that's a clue right there. No one else is immune to inspection for possible corruption, why should the sw be? To go so far as to attack your own allies kinda implies you have something to hide. The sw are just this side of chaos. Like I've said before, the chaos gods have no better tool to use against the imperium then their mongrel pawns, the sw.

As are the Blood Angels.

Blood Angels don't let stupid stubborn arrogant pride get in their way though. They know they will go crazy eventually, and spend their days defending the imperium with everything they've got. And when they feel the crazyness coming, they say, " send me in coach!" and charge headlong into impossible odds to assure that they die serving their Emprah. Sw, on the other hand, rationalize their assanine deeds by drunkenly declaring that they are in the right. Stupid pride won't let the sw allow themselves to be even inspected by the proper authorities, instead opening fire on them without hesitation, as has already been discussed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll use my own post to as an example of what I posted earlier. Fans of each faction will like their favorite, and perhaps not like others. Sw are just an extreme example of this as their attitude of "our means justifies the ends 'cause we know better then anyone else" is so asinine as to be extremely annoying.

Aren't ultra marines supposed to be the embodiment of "good" ? Not saying this is my opinion on them. Just saying that this seems to be their role.

The Mad Tanker wrote:Salamanders are definitely the most "human" of the Space Marie Chapters.

I would't argue that salamanders are the "nicest" ones but I think Wolves are more "human".

KplKeegan wrote:

Kaldor wrote:The space wolves are biggoted, anti-authoritarian, drunkards with anger management issues. They aren't some noble oversight committee who 'calls the Imperium on their BS', they are a spoiled teenager who screams 'you can't tell me what to do!' and throws a tantrum.

Sounds like the Grey Knights, minus the alcohol.

More or less

Phiasco II wrote:
I'll use my own post to as an example of what I posted earlier. Fans of each faction will like their favorite, and perhaps not like others. Sw are just an extreme example of this as their attitude of "our means justifies the ends 'cause we know better then anyone else" is so asinine as to be extremely annoying.

And this is how two people can read the same thing and come across with different ideas.

You said you see their attitudes as "our means justifies the ends 'cause we know better then anyone else"

I see it more as... Our means justifies the ends 'because this is how our fathers and their fathers and so on have done it since the days of Russ and its all worked out well so far."

If the Wolves have one heretical trait that makes them completely different from all the other loyalist SM factions, its probably that they actually love Russ more than the big E himself (but just barely). They follow the teachings of their father, who loved the emperor, thus they love the emperor, but only because of what Russ taught, not because of what the Emperor is. I imagine most other SM will still put the big E before even their own Primarch.

I still see the wolves as space vikings and as such tradition and superstition are very prominent in their way of doing things. If Russ said it was thus and the big E was ok with it, then its a tradition worth keeping and no cushion warmer in a dress is going to tell us otherwise. Its not because they think they know better, its just that what they know works, so why in the name of the Allfather would you let anyone question it.

Some may see that as an arrogant attitude, but then again, others believe that if it isn't broke, don't fix it.

LoneLictor wrote:

Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.

Everyone thinks they're good. Besides, the Tau are only good relative to the rest of the setting. They're a society run by racist nutcases who utilize mindcontrol and don't flinch at the concept of sending innocents to their death. Except they're slightly more hesitant to kill than everyone else, because war is expensive.

bmoleski wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.

Talk about off-topic...

The guy asked about Good factions in the universe.

The Tau are one of the few who come close to that.

Using pheromones as a means of mind control to keep your populace in order isn't really good. Their "join us or die" ideology is far from good also.

They do not use mind control.The Codex says the imperial Speculates they do as they do not understand how they could be so loyal, and suggests it could be pheromones or some sort of psychic control - which shows they actually have absolutely no idea about it. Xenology also gets several things wrong so is not a good source of information.

They don't send innocents to their death either. Even drones aren't considered expendable.

And as far as i know there has not been any actual "join or die" situations, so some examples would be nice. They didn't kill the Vespid when they refused.

Jayden63 wrote:If the Wolves have one heretical trait that makes them completely different from all the other loyalist SM factions, its probably that they actually love Russ more than the big E himself (but just barely). They follow the teachings of their father, who loved the emperor, thus they love the emperor, but only because of what Russ taught, not because of what the Emperor is. I imagine most other SM will still put the big E before even their own Primarch.

You'd lose that bet. See Horus Heresy.

Phiasco II wrote:The sw are just this side of chaos.

Citation needed.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
They do not use mind control.The Codex says the imperial Speculates they do as they do not understand how they could be so loyal, and suggests it could be pheromones or some sort of psychic control - which shows they actually have absolutely no idea about it. Xenology also gets several things wrong so is not a good source of information.

They don't send innocents to their death either. Even drones aren't considered expendable.

And as far as i know there has not been any actual "join or die" situations, so some examples would be nice. They didn't kill the Vespid when they refused.

They ignored me when I brought this up as well as several other points. Frankly, I think every other post could be shouting that

A) the Ecclesiarchy had a long history of 'we're here for x' followed by 'commence orbital bombardment' leading up to them shooting down that load of priests. I can see the reaction in the fire control room: "Of course you are. Not like we haven't fallen for that one before. Open Fire.'

B) That the Tau thing has since been retconned from what it is to what the Inquisition thinks it is, due to the minor fact that it works without them being physically present and through the fully sealed armor of the Tau...


and they would keep on ignoring.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Phiasco II wrote:The sw are just this side of chaos.

Citation needed.

Sorry, did I say I was quoting anything, or that I was citing anything other then my own opinion? Oh wait, I didn't. As to why I think they are just this side if chaos, it's their attitude. The sw attitude is that they'll do whatever the hell they want, and kill anyone who gets in the way or even disagree. Sounds like chaos to me.

I heard the salamanders even raise families.

Omegus wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:If the Wolves have one heretical trait that makes them completely different from all the other loyalist SM factions, its probably that they actually love Russ more than the big E himself (but just barely). They follow the teachings of their father, who loved the emperor, thus they love the emperor, but only because of what Russ taught, not because of what the Emperor is. I imagine most other SM will still put the big E before even their own Primarch.

You'd lose that bet. See Horus Heresy.

I think, 40k is much different than 30k. You have a LOT of SM that don't really have any ties to a Primarch. They (imho) would therefore not follow a Primarch over the Emperor. For the Founding chapters and ones that still hold onto their gene-father most of them would follow their Primarch over the Emperor. Look how very few SM did not follow their traitor Primarchs. A tiny handful (relatively speaking). The precedence for ultimate loyalty to the Emperor is pretty damn small.

And I would consider 'ultimate loyalty to the Emperor' turning against your own primarch, considering how deeply we know devotion to Primarchs to be.

Loyalty to a primarch over loyalty to the Emprah was a major part of the horus heresy. Remember that the first thing horus did was purge his own ranks of his marines he knew to be loyal primarily to the Emprah rather to himself. I guess that's one more thing sw have in common with the traitor legions, if indeed they venerate Russ over the Emprah.

Phiasco II wrote:The sw attitude is that they'll do whatever the hell they want, and kill anyone who gets in the way or even disagree. Sounds like chaos to me.

Once again, citation needed.

When do any of these "kill anyone who gets in the way or even disagree(s)" happen?

LoneLictor wrote:If you read "A Thousand Sons" you wouldn't think Space Wolves were good guys. Furthermore, 40k has no faction that is good (though it does have a few good people, usually caught in the crossfire or being used by one faction).

This a million times over. The wolves are giant hypocrites who enjoy damning anyone but themselves to hell.

Omegus wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:If the Wolves have one heretical trait that makes them completely different from all the other loyalist SM factions, its probably that they actually love Russ more than the big E himself (but just barely). They follow the teachings of their father, who loved the emperor, thus they love the emperor, but only because of what Russ taught, not because of what the Emperor is. I imagine most other SM will still put the big E before even their own Primarch.

You'd lose that bet. See Horus Heresy.

I was talking about the current armies in the 41st millennium since that we are looking for current "good guys" for the OP. I did use the phrase loyalist SM factions, clearly during the HH some guys were not so "loyal". Things were a whole lot different 10,000 years ago.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Phiasco II wrote:The sw attitude is that they'll do whatever the hell they want, and kill anyone who gets in the way or even disagree. Sounds like chaos to me.

Once again, citation needed.

When do any of these "kill anyone who gets in the way or even disagree(s)" happen?

Anyone with books at there disposal at the moment want to throw in a few examples?

Off the top of my head: Horus- "Go kill Mangus, I know dad said very explicitly just to arrest him, but you should really just kill him" Russ- "Hot dang, I never liked him anyway, this is gonna be great!", GK's- "Good job fighting off the full on demonic incursion guys. Now, as per protocol, lets take care of the Guardsmen that may now be currupted" SW's- "How dare you do the sensible thing and ensure the safety of trillions by killing millions!?! We're gonna smuggle all the guardsmen we can off planet, AND we vow vengeance upon all who were doing the sensible thing!", "Hey Fenris, we're incoming. Just going to check a few things out here. You know, standard stuff." SW's- "@#$% that @#$%!! FIRE EVERYTHING!!!"

Just a few examples off the top of my head. And before you ask for more citation, I told you I don't have books on me, just using examples from earlier discussions. But clearly, unless I'm totally making these scenarios up, the SW have an attitude similar to that of a teenager eg- Don't tell me what to do!! I know better!! I do whatever I want!!

Phiasco II wrote:
Off the top of my head: Horus- "Go kill Mangus, I know dad said very explicitly just to arrest him, but you should really just kill him"

Horus ordered him to attack Magnus. Russ never received orders from the Emperor otherwise.

Phiasco II wrote:GK's- "Good job fighting off the full on demonic incursion guys. Now, as per protocol, lets take care of the Guardsmen that may now be currupted" SW's- "How dare you do the sensible thing and ensure the safety of trillions by killing millions!?! We're gonna smuggle all the guardsmen we can off planet, AND we vow vengeance upon all who were doing the sensible thing!",

You're making that one up. Such a thing never happened.

Phiasco II wrote:
"Hey Fenris, we're incoming. Just going to check a few things out here. You know, standard stuff." SW's- "@#$% that @#$%!! FIRE EVERYTHING!!!"

The Ecclesiarchy were coming to declare the Space Wolves heretics. They stated that specifically.

Phiasco II wrote:
Just a few examples off the top of my head. And before you ask for more citation, I told you I don't have books on me,

Perhaps you should refrain from continuing your argument until you have evidence then.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Phiasco II wrote:
"Hey Fenris, we're incoming. Just going to check a few things out here. You know, standard stuff." SW's- "@#$% that @#$%!! FIRE EVERYTHING!!!"

The Ecclesiarchy were coming to declare the Space Wolves heretics. They stated that specifically.

Maybe because they ARE......

SickSix wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Phiasco II wrote:
"Hey Fenris, we're incoming. Just going to check a few things out here. You know, standard stuff." SW's- "@#$% that @#$%!! FIRE EVERYTHING!!!"

The Ecclesiarchy were coming to declare the Space Wolves heretics. They stated that specifically.

Maybe because they ARE......

Exactly. A clear cut case of self defense.

They were there to investigate potentially heretical practices.

Jefffar wrote:

SickSix wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Phiasco II wrote:
"Hey Fenris, we're incoming. Just going to check a few things out here. You know, standard stuff." SW's- "@#$% that @#$%!! FIRE EVERYTHING!!!"

The Ecclesiarchy were coming to declare the Space Wolves heretics. They stated that specifically.

Maybe because they ARE......

Exactly. A clear cut case of self defense.

Wait... what? This is self defense? If a police officer has a warrant to search my house, but I know he will find the seven million dollars I stole piled high on my bed if he does come in, then I can shoot at him because I know I'm going to be arrested?

Nice try.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Phiasco II wrote:
Off the top of my head: Horus- "Go kill Mangus, I know dad said very explicitly just to arrest him, but you should really just kill him"

Horus ordered him to attack Magnus. Russ never received orders from the Emperor otherwise.

Lexicanum-
"The Primarch of the Thousand Sons Space Marines, Magnus, had ignored the Emperor's command to not dabble in sorcery. The Space Wolves were then ordered BY THE EMPEROR to bring Magnus before him to answer for this. Russ, however, was convinced by Horus to launch an attack on the Thousand Sons rather than attempt to negotiate."
(I added the all caps)

DarknessEternal wrote:

Phiasco II wrote:GK's- "Good job fighting off the full on demonic incursion guys. Now, as per protocol, lets take care of the Guardsmen that may now be currupted" SW's- "How dare you do the sensible thing and ensure the safety of trillions by killing millions!?! We're gonna smuggle all the guardsmen we can off planet, AND we vow vengeance upon all who were doing the sensible thing!",

You're making that one up. Such a thing never happened.

Try the end of the first battle for Armageddon. C:GK pg 13:
"In the aftermath of battle, the Inquisition began a thorough programme of mindwipe and execution of those imperial Guardsmen and hive defenders who had taken part in the war in order to contain widespread knowledge of both Daemons and of the Grey Knights. However, many thousands of soldiers slipped through the tightening noose. This was perhaps because the scale of cull being attempted on Armageddon far surpassed any that had previously taken place, although matters were further complicated by the fact that Logan Grimnar, who vehemently abhorred such practices, did everything he could to inhibit the Inquisitions agents. Thus was the Inquisition given cause to pay closer attention to the deeds of the Space Wolves in the years that followed.
With their hand thus forced, the Inquisition and the Grey Knights were forced to extend the scope of their containment action, with bloody results for worlds that had never even heard of Armageddon....All told, victory at Armageddon was to cost several billion lives long after the capaign had officially concluded."

DarknessEternal wrote:

Phiasco II wrote:
"Hey Fenris, we're incoming. Just going to check a few things out here. You know, standard stuff." SW's- "@#$% that @#$%!! FIRE EVERYTHING!!!"

The Ecclesiarchy were coming to declare the Space Wolves heretics. They stated that specifically.

Then by all accounts, SW should be featured in the next renegade chapter codex.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Phiasco II wrote:
Just a few examples off the top of my head. And before you ask for more citation, I told you I don't have books on me,

Perhaps you should refrain from continuing your argument until you have evidence then.

Your correct, it does feel really good to be able to cite my sources that convince me that SW are nothing but the ignorant pawns Chaos. No better tool could the chaos gods find then the ready and willing SW chapter.

Ignatius wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

Exactly. A clear cut case of self defense.

Wait... what? This is self defense? If a police officer has a warrant to search my house, but I know he will find the seven million dollars I stole piled high on my bed if he does come in, then I can shoot at him because I know I'm going to be arrested?

Nice try.

To the SW they weren't police. They were the representatives of a corrupt group that had supplanted the rightful government quite some time ago sent to provide a justification to kill or worse every man, woman and child on the planet.

*edit* trimmed the pyramid.

Jefffar wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

Exactly. A clear cut case of self defense.

Wait... what? This is self defense? If a police officer has a warrant to search my house, but I know he will find the seven million dollars I stole piled high on my bed if he does come in, then I can shoot at him because I know I'm going to be arrested?

Nice try.

To the SW they weren't police. They were the representatives of a corrupt group that had supplanted the rightful government quite some time ago sent to provide a justification to kill or worse every man, woman and child on the planet.

*edit* trimmed the pyramid.

Perfect example of their destructive arrogance.

Ignatius wrote:
Wait... what? This is self defense? If a police officer has a warrant to search my house, but I know he will find the seven million dollars I stole piled high on my bed if he does come in, then I can shoot at him because I know I'm going to be arrested?

Nice try.

Point of fact, yes you can, as long as your next act is to get on a plane to a non-extradition country with that 7 million before his pals find out. Depending on the state, Canada is nice this time of year, and they won't extradite if you face a possible death penalty. Argentina used to be a nice choice, but these days I'd recommend Venezuela. Brazil is OK, but you have to be married to a Brazilian citizen to dodge extradition there. Though 7m would buy you your pick in the Rio slums.



And, again, deep breath: This WAS NOT THE FIRST TIME THE SW SHOT IT OUT WITH THE ECCLESIARCHY ON FENRIS. THIS WAS NOT AN EVENT THAT TOOK PLACE IN A VACUUM.

IN addition: The Ecclesiarchy does in fact have more than one seat among the High Lords (The Cardinals of the Synod of Terra, as well as the Abbess of the SoB [a position currently Empty] as well as the Ecclesiarch), HOWEVER, point of law, it IS NOT in fact, part of the Adeptus Terra, anymore than the admech is.

FURTHER: Historically, Space Marines HAVE, on occasion, sat as High Lords of Terra, (most notably the Ultramarine's Primarch), and could conceivably serve as Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar, with command of overall Imperial space assets in the Segmentum. (as opposed to the Lord High Admiral of the Imperial Navy, who also sits on the High Lords.) Space Marines have been known to take overall command of fleet actions in Segmentum Solar in the past. (HH, Armageddon)

Minor point:

The Ecclesiarchy was not coming to attack the Space Wolves themselves.

They were coming to "investigate" the populace of Fenris itself for rampant mutation and heretical practices/cults.

Mess with a Chapter's recruiting ground at your own peril, Ecclesiarchy.

Kanluwen wrote:Minor point:

The Ecclesiarchy was not coming to attack the Space Wolves themselves.

They were coming to "investigate" the populace of Fenris itself for rampant mutation and heretical practices/cults.

Mess with a Chapter's Space Wolves' recruiting ground at your own peril, Ecclesiarchy.

FTFY

Normal chapters have no problem complying with the laws and regulations of the Imperium.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Ignatius wrote:
Wait... what? This is self defense? If a police officer has a warrant to search my house, but I know he will find the seven million dollars I stole piled high on my bed if he does come in, then I can shoot at him because I know I'm going to be arrested?

Nice try.

Point of fact, yes you can, as long as your next act is to get on a plane to a non-extradition country with that 7 million before his pals find out. Depending on the state, Canada is nice this time of year, and they won't extradite if you face a possible death penalty. Argentina used to be a nice choice, but these days I'd recommend Venezuela. Brazil is OK, but you have to be married to a Brazilian citizen to dodge extradition there. Though 7m would buy you your pick in the Rio slums.

A well thought out plan, but one that disbars you from being considered a "good guy" IMHO.

Phiasco II wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

Exactly. A clear cut case of self defense.

Wait... what? This is self defense? If a police officer has a warrant to search my house, but I know he will find the seven million dollars I stole piled high on my bed if he does come in, then I can shoot at him because I know I'm going to be arrested?

Nice try.

To the SW they weren't police. They were the representatives of a corrupt group that had supplanted the rightful government quite some time ago sent to provide a justification to kill or worse every man, woman and child on the planet.

*edit* trimmed the pyramid.

Perfect example of their destructive arrogance.

Yes it is a very good example. I liken it to Americans who voted in a presidential race. But the person they voted for didn't win. They then say, "Well he's not my president!".

Excuse me? Are you a part of the United States? Then he's your president.

Same for the Wolves. Are they a part of the Imperium? Then they must submit to the higher authority. Just because they say they don't have to doesn't mean they actually don't.