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I think this string of arguments has settled it for me. SW are heretical renegades that can't be trusted and probably should be wiped out.

Phiasco II wrote:
Lexicanum-
"The Primarch of the Thousand Sons Space Marines, Magnus, had ignored the Emperor's command to not dabble in sorcery. The Space Wolves were then ordered BY THE EMPEROR to bring Magnus before him to answer for this. Russ, however, was convinced by Horus to launch an attack on the Thousand Sons rather than attempt to negotiate."

First, Lexicanum is not a primary source. Like Wikipedia, it is a secondary source.

Second, there's three versions (original, and twice in HH series (and the HH series conflicts with itself)) of this story. In two of them, the Emperor told Russ nothing, only Horus. Horus then tells Russ to kill Magnus.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Phiasco II wrote:GK's- "Good job fighting off the full on demonic incursion guys. Now, as per protocol, lets take care of the Guardsmen that may now be currupted" SW's- "How dare you do the sensible thing and ensure the safety of trillions by killing millions!?! We're gonna smuggle all the guardsmen we can off planet, AND we vow vengeance upon all who were doing the sensible thing!",

You're making that one up. Such a thing never happened.

Try the end of the first battle for Armageddon. C:GK pg 13:
"In the aftermath of battle, the Inquisition began a thorough programme of mindwipe and execution of those imperial Guardsmen and hive defenders who had taken part in the war in order to contain widespread knowledge of both Daemons and of the Grey Knights. However, many thousands of soldiers slipped through the tightening noose. This was perhaps because the scale of cull being attempted on Armageddon far surpassed any that had previously taken place, although matters were further complicated by the fact that Logan Grimnar, who vehemently abhorred such practices, did everything he could to inhibit the Inquisitions agents. Thus was the Inquisition given cause to pay closer attention to the deeds of the Space Wolves in the years that followed.
With their hand thus forced, the Inquisition and the Grey Knights were forced to extend the scope of their containment action, with bloody results for worlds that had never even heard of Armageddon....All told, victory at Armageddon was to cost several billion lives long after the capaign had officially concluded."

dreadfury101 wrote:Ive been reading up on the fluff of space wolves and it seems to me that they are the only "good guys" in the whole universe. they have a code, They stand up for the weak, they call the imperium on its BS ( see defying orders to save lives and families)

So do the Sisters.

So do the Guard at times even.

But Space Wolves themselves have done some questionable things due to their rebellious nature.

Melissia wrote:

dreadfury101 wrote:Ive been reading up on the fluff of space wolves and it seems to me that they are the only "good guys" in the whole universe. they have a code, They stand up for the weak, they call the imperium on its BS ( see defying orders to save lives and families)

So do the Sisters.

Haha, no.

The SoB are the "purging" arm of the Ecclesiarchy. No other group in the Imperium, or even in the whole galaxy, has murdered more Imperial citizens.

DarknessEternal wrote:The SoB are the "purging" arm of the Ecclesiarchy. No other group in the Imperium, or even in the whole galaxy, has murdered more Imperial citizens.

Stop making gak up. Lying out of your ass doesn't make for a good argument.

Melissia wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:The SoB are the "purging" arm of the Ecclesiarchy. No other group in the Imperium, or even in the whole galaxy, has murdered more Imperial citizens.

Stop making gak up. Lying out of your ass doesn't make for a good argument.

Well, I can think of three examples, each lesser than the previous because we're starting big.

First, there was the Reign of Blood, where they killed TRILLIONS of loyal Imperial citizens. Trillions is very large number that nothing can really hope to compete with.

Then there was the Purge of Lastrati, where they tortured and killed 14 billion people for not living up to increasingly insane standards of a "perfect human". These weren't mutants or heretics. It's made clear that this was insane zealotry on the part of the Ecclesiarchy.

And thirdly, there was Cardinal Bucharis' original attack and razing of Fenris, wherein they attempted to torch and enslave the world to provide themselves with more wealth. Note, this was several thousand years before "The Ecclesiarchy Comes to Fenris" in Codex Space Wolves 5th (and you wonder why the Wolves held a grudge?).

Just three examples from Codex Sisters of Battle 2nd.

DarknessEternal wrote:First, there was the Reign of Blood, where they killed TRILLIONS of loyal Imperial citizens. Trillions is very large number that nothing can really hope to compete with.

Did not involve the Daughters of the Emperor nor the Sisters of Battle. The latter did not exist yet; the former merely acted as a bodyguard for Vandire, until they killed him and ended the Reign of Blood-- they stopped the bloodshed.

DarknessEternal wrote:Then there was the Purge of Lastrati

Which was done by the Black Templars, not the Sisters.

DarknessEternal wrote:And thirdly, there was Cardinal Bucharis' original attack and razing of Fenris

Did not involve the Daughters of the Emperor, who were not present during this attack, nor did it involve the Sisters of Battle, who did not exist at the time.



And even if you add all this up, it still pales in comparison to what a SINGLE Inquisitor did to stop the Tyranids.

Melissia wrote:
And even if you add all this up, it still pales in comparison to what a SINGLE Inquisitor did to stop the Tyranids.

But sacrificing entire worlds to almost kinda slow the Tyranids down was so worth it...

The only thing that Kryptman did that "worked" was leading the Tyranids (well, a Hive Fleet splinter thing) into Octarius and into conflict with the Orks.

And the GK/Inquisition have killed so many imperial citizens literally nothing else will compare to that number. That thing with the GK and the killing the people after the first war of Armageddon? That was not the first time that happened, and it certainly won't be the last. Well, until GW bring the Emperor back and he smacks down the High Lords, Ecclesiarchy, and Draigo for being genocidal mooks. Assuming that's where GW wants the plot to go...

About the Space Wolves: They do a lot for the little man, but also a lot to piss off those who have the capacity to kill them, and some of that stuff is not good, no matter which way you look at it.

Melissia wrote:Which was done by the Black Templars, not the Sisters.

Black Templars didn't exist in 2nd edition.

And I thought we were talking about the Ecclesiarchy. SoB exist as their military, they can't be separated.

Also, Cardinal Bucharis was after the Reign of Blood, so there were SoBs, but you are correct that they were not present.

DarknessEternal wrote:And I thought we were talking about the Ecclesiarchy. SoB exist as their military, they can't be separated.

Condemning Sisters of Battle, who help regulate the Ecclesiarchy, for things which happened BEFORE the Sisters of Battle existed, is either stupidity or trolling.

Which one are you?

Every army besides Dark Eldar/Tyranids/Orks can be seen as the "good guys", its all about perspective.

The Space Wolves are traitorous scum and mindless beasts who betrayed the Thousand Sons. They're the farthest thing from a good guy.

Ignatius wrote:Yes it is a very good example. I liken it to Americans who voted in a presidential race. But the person they voted for didn't win. They then say, "Well he's not my president!".

Excuse me? Are you a part of the United States? Then he's your president.

Same for the Wolves. Are they a part of the Imperium? Then they must submit to the higher authority. Just because they say they don't have to doesn't mean they actually don't.

The US and IoM have few likenesses. Maybe if politicians assassinated each other during campaigning, state governors refused to pay federal taxes every few years and whole military units went renegade more often.

The Imperium isn't a democracy or a republic, it's more like a slow-moving bureaucratic feudal hell where your connections and power determine what you can do. As long as the wolves fulfill their main oaths of fighting the enemies of the Imperium none of the non-churchly High Lords will lift a finger to support the Ecclesiarchy against them. If you can do something it's your right - unless someone proves you wrong. If higher authority lacks the will or power to get things done then they're to blame, not the guy who does what he wants. Hearing about the Ecclesiarchy running away from Fenris probably was the high point of the day (or year?) for many a High Lord. Next time the Navy might send crappier ships even if the church asks for better ones.

From reading "Prospero Burns" (and, to an extent, A Thousand Sons) the in 30k the Space Wolves are:

a) Extremely savage barbarians, due to their upbringing on a deathworld which is subject to constant conflict for scarce resources.

b) This leads to a highly independant mindset where it's you and yours against absolutely everything else.

c) Assume that you can do anything that you need to unless you are specifically told not to. And the onus is on you to find out what you're allowed to do, not wait for orders (As the old Wolf priest , a terran, says the Fenrisian logic gets into you like a hook)

d) Vastly more intelligent than they appear.

e) Much more controlled than they appear. If they were just berserkers they'd be easy. As the wolf lord says, "It takes a lot of self control to be this dangerous.

f) Deliberately hide (d) and (e) from the rest of the Imperium. Why? Because you never know who you're going to have to kill. See (b)

g) Regard themselves as the executioners of the Emperor, willing to do what everyone else would find horrifying.

Because of this, they scare hell out of everyone else. As one imperial officer puts it, they either prove that the Emperor isn't infallible, or that he's planned ahead and designed them for fighting something so terrible that it doesn't bear contemplating.

By 40k, we're pretty well aquinted with the assorted horrifying things that the Wolves are designed to fight, so it looks like Big E was spot on there, though probably didn't envision himself being nailed to a chair in the process.

In the optimistic times of 30k, the Space Wolve are quite rightly seen as a thing of horror. Ten thousand years later, the whole of the rest of the Imperium has become so bad that they seem like fluffy bunnies. The Wolves haven't changed.

I wonder if this is due to their ban on written records? Everything the Imperium has ever written down seems to have been, without exception, lost or imperfectly copied.
The Wolves, with an oral history tradition backed up by a couple of guys in the fridge who were actually there during the Heresy, seem to have stayed more true to their original purpose, i.e. not only fighting the external enemies of the Imperium, but fighting against what they see as failures within the Imperium itself. They're missing someone they actually respect to give them these orders though, which makes them act like loose cannons.

DarknessEternal wrote:

First, there was the Reign of Blood, where they killed TRILLIONS of loyal Imperial citizens. Trillions is very large number that nothing can really hope to compete with.
.

Indeed. Trillions is a fairly large number. 10^12 for short-scale countries (UK & US) and even 10^18 on long-scale. Given that the galaxy only has about 200-400 billion stars, or 200-400 x 10^9 on short-scale, multiples of a trillion (10^12 on short-scale) would still leave thousands of humans for each and every single star in the milky way, whether with planets or not, not to mention inhabitable planets. If the Reign of Blood would kill one thousand imperial citizens every single second, it would still take almost 32 years to get to even only 1 Trillion. Several Trillion (assuming single digits) would thus be over a century of "thousand-citizens-every-single-second-killing".

In short, highly unlikely.

Wolf/Armegeddon related spoilers from the forthcoming " Emperor's Gift" book

Zweischneid wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

First, there was the Reign of Blood, where they killed TRILLIONS of loyal Imperial citizens. Trillions is very large number that nothing can really hope to compete with.
.

Indeed. Trillions is a fairly large number. 10^12 for short-scale countries (UK & US) and even 10^18 on long-scale. Given that the galaxy only has about 200-400 billion stars, or 200-400 x 10^9 on short-scale, multiples of a trillion (10^12 on short-scale) would still leave thousands of humans for each and every single star in the milky way, whether with planets or not, not to mention inhabitable planets. If the Reign of Blood would kill one thousand imperial citizens every single second, it would still take almost 32 years to get to even only 1 Trillion. Several Trillion (assuming single digits) would thus be over a century of "thousand-citizens-every-single-second-killing".

In short, highly unlikely.

You're underestimating the scale of 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Condemning Sisters of Battle, who help regulate the Ecclesiarchy,

They do no such thing. They blindly enforce the dogma of the Ecclesiarchy as its most ridiculous fanatics.

DarknessEternal wrote:
And thirdly, there was Cardinal Bucharis' original attack and razing of Fenris, wherein they attempted to torch and enslave the world to provide themselves with more wealth. Note, this was several thousand years before "The Ecclesiarchy Comes to Fenris" in Codex Space Wolves 5th (and you wonder why the Wolves held a grudge?).

So DE mentions it and THEN people acknowledge that there's some back-story behind the SW/Ecclesiarchy relationship? Three other people drag this out and it's ignored in the ranting about them shooting down a single ship.

DarknessEternal wrote:
You're underestimating the scale of 40k.

The scale of 40K is one galaxy? This galaxy? Is it not?

Please be polite when discussing such vexing issues please.

Zweischneid wrote:
The scale of 40K is one galaxy? This galaxy? Is it not?

Yes, and it not only contains trillions of humans to kill, but it also contains the means to do it in moments.

Zweischneid wrote:
The scale of 40K is one galaxy? This galaxy? Is it not?

Actually incorrect. Humanity claims the majority of the galaxy on the map, but actually rules and inhabits a tiny fraction of what they claim.

reds8n wrote:Wolf/Armegeddon related spoilers from the forthcoming " Emperor's Gift" book

Spoiler:

Logan Grimnar rails against the sterilization and enslavement.execution of Armageddon's people for gaining knowledge of Angron and Chaos.
It escalates into a (brief) war known by the Grey Knights as "The Months of Shame". Grimnar evacuates most of the Imperial Guardsmen who fought on Armageddon to prevent them from being executed for seeing Chaos and the Grey Knights. The Inquisition hunts many down, burning the ships and any planets or installations that even heard about them or identified them passing through their system, it continued with many worlds destroyed but the Wolves defending many more, using their ships as shields yet never opening fire on the Inquisition forces.
It, obviously, is not a victory in the conventional sense for the Space Wolves but.... Thankfully it's sorted out afore the Imperium goes into full on civil war once again.

Sounds like sw fanboy wish listing to me.

When the Ecclesarchy came to Fenris it wasn't a 'routine inspection' by the police and the Space Wolves knew it.

After Armageddon the Wolves considered the forces of the Imperium to murderous and duplicitous fiends who would kill their allies by the millions just to protect their secrets.

Secrets that the Space Wolves knew and had almost come to blows with the agents of the Imperium at the end of Armageddon.

When the Space Wolves saw the Ecclesarchy in their system they didn't see a rightful authority. They saw a someone who would kill them and everyone else on their planet in an effort to keep their secrets hidden.


So tell me, if someone living under a corrupt regieme saw a secret police car pull up and knew that those secret police were going to kill them, their family and probably most of their neighbors. Would taking up arms to protect yourself, your family and your neighbors be a good or evil act?

Jefffar wrote:
So tell me, if someone living under a corrupt regieme saw a secret police car pull up and knew that those secret police were going to kill them, their family and probably most of their neighbors. Would taking up arms to protect yourself, your family and your neighbors be a good or evil act?

*waives hand* I know the answer, I know the answer!

Lure the Secret Police into chasing the 'rabbit' down a narrow hallway, and when he passes you, gun them down with the HMG, strip their bodies, call your buddies in the resistance to get the car and the secret police stiffs stuff, and then ditch the bodies in a lime pit while the resistance guys take the car to a chop shop and divvy up the weapons after.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Having been a Marine, I think we're a little less hairy and a lot more disciplined, lol.
Probably drink the same amount.

I dunno about that, I've seen some, who were no credit to the uniform, who were both less disciplined AND hairier. Though their intense drunkenness probably contributed to the former and the ensuing barfight by pointing out the latter.

Haha. Everybody's got their 10%.

For the Space Marines, it's the Minotaurs, Black Templars and Space Wolves.

Jefffar wrote:
When the Space Wolves saw the Ecclesarchy in their system they didn't see a rightful authority. They saw a someone who would kill them and everyone else on their planet in an effort to keep their secrets hidden.

And more to the point, they saw someone who had raped and plundered Fenris before.

Phiasco II wrote:

reds8n wrote:Wolf/Armegeddon related spoilers from the forthcoming " Emperor's Gift" book

Spoiler:

Logan Grimnar rails against the sterilization and enslavement.execution of Armageddon's people for gaining knowledge of Angron and Chaos.
It escalates into a (brief) war known by the Grey Knights as "The Months of Shame". Grimnar evacuates most of the Imperial Guardsmen who fought on Armageddon to prevent them from being executed for seeing Chaos and the Grey Knights. The Inquisition hunts many down, burning the ships and any planets or installations that even heard about them or identified them passing through their system, it continued with many worlds destroyed but the Wolves defending many more, using their ships as shields yet never opening fire on the Inquisition forces.
It, obviously, is not a victory in the conventional sense for the Space Wolves but.... Thankfully it's sorted out afore the Imperium goes into full on civil war once again.

Sounds like sw fanboy wish listing to me.

I am not sure, it actualy sounds like something the Spacewolves would do. They are shortsightened and headstrong, never realizing that allowing people to escape from Armageddon made it necessary to increase the scope of the following purge nor are they realizing that there is no sacrifice to great to contain the taint of chaos if the Imperium wishes to remain stable.

You think marines are humane then? Perhaps you should read a few articles written by these humane marines and see for yourself if they consider themselves humane.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
For the Space Marines, it's the Minotaurs, Black Templars and Space Wolves.

You left out Dark Angels and the Ultramarines. Let's not forget those heretics and how they break from the Codex Astartes by possessing lance weapons and mounting them on their starships (forbidden to Space Marines under the Codex).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reality-Torrent wrote:You think marines are humane then? Perhaps you should read a few articles written by these humane marines and see for yourself if they consider themselves humane.

Be sure to compare their actions to other Imperial organization's approved practices. After all, cutting the heads off infants and sewing them into their (still living) mother's breasts as a means of execution is among the Inquisition's ideas of punishment for certain lesser offenses. We're not even getting into the Ecclesiarchy, IN lists strangulation, beating the subject to death, flogging, and the ever popular tossing out the airlock as approved methods. IG is usually too busy shooting or dying themselves to really get into the spirit of things...

Further, the fact that they're able to question their own actions, as opposed to everyone else, who apparently don't, might also suggest that they're more humane than, say, the Sisters of Battle...