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DarknessEternal wrote:
And more to the point, they saw someone who had raped and plundered Fenris before.

By that logic, Black Legion are likely the good guys of 40K. They've been attacked before, and if pre-emptive surprise strikes deduct no points, they're getting close to shining knights in white armour. As do all others I guess.

Spetulhu wrote:

The US and IoM have few likenesses. Maybe if politicians assassinated each other during campaigning, state governors refused to pay federal taxes every few years and whole military units went renegade more often.

The Imperium isn't a democracy or a republic, it's more like a slow-moving bureaucratic feudal hell where your connections and power determine what you can do.

That actually sounds a lot like the US. But this is not a discussion of real world politics.

I can't believe this discussion continues. I think everyone should remember that, THERE ARE NO GOOD GUYS. Part of the reason 40k has been so successful is that you can choose any faction and try to rationalise that they are the "good guys". As has been said; it's all about perspective.

dreadfury101 wrote:Ive been reading up on the fluff of space wolves and it seems to me that they are the only "good guys" in the whole universe. they have a code, They stand up for the weak, they call the imperium on its BS ( see defying orders to save lives and families) They spit in the face of the imperium when it is necessary and they dont take no s%$# from anyone. When you compare the fluff of Space puppies to say the GK or the grind house guard it seems that SW are the only ones who still have.... the word i want to use is "humanity"..... maybe im off the mark but they remind me a lot of US marines (i grew up around those guys they all seem very space wolfy).

an internet cookie for your thoughts?

Salamanders do the same thing.
Tau are actually more sympathetic to civvies than SW, or anyone really. Their priority when they are invaded is to evacuate ALL civilians.
Ultrasmurfs are awful, but not evil.
In fact, most loyalist SM aren't really "evil", even certain CSM aren't (see: Night Lords)
Eldar aren't evil at all.


Certain things like DE, orks and nids aren't really evil, battling only for survival.

Chaos is evil.
The guard (in execution of their task, not in their purpose) is somewhat evil.
The inquisition CAN be evil, but is more of a "sacrifice the few, save the many" kinda thing.

Kavish wrote:
I can't believe this discussion continues. I think everyone should remember that, THERE ARE NO GOOD GUYS.

And by The Emperor, if there are Good Guys, they're going to be retconned into jerkasses next release, in their new codex, written by CS Goto and Matt Ward!

So sayeth Games Sweatshop!

I have yet to see Salamander's portrayed in a negative light. They are truly the 'Good Guys' of 40k.

Tau 'appear' to be good but there is definitely some indications that they may not be quite so under the surface. (mind control and all that mess)

BaronIveagh wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reality-Torrent wrote:You think marines are humane then? Perhaps you should read a few articles written by these humane marines and see for yourself if they consider themselves humane.

Be sure to compare their actions to other Imperial organization's approved practices. After all, cutting the heads off infants and sewing them into their (still living) mother's breasts as a means of execution is among the Inquisition's ideas of punishment for certain lesser offenses. We're not even getting into the Ecclesiarchy, IN lists strangulation, beating the subject to death, flogging, and the ever popular tossing out the airlock as approved methods. IG is usually too busy shooting or dying themselves to really get into the spirit of things...

Further, the fact that they're able to question their own actions, as opposed to everyone else, who apparently don't, might also suggest that they're more humane than, say, the Sisters of Battle...

You missed my point though. The author claimed that the Space Wolfs should be compared to the US marines. Which is imo pretty far of the mark. Seeing it's even pretty clear the share a different heritage similarity to the "vikings" even though that's also a pretty poor boast.

Reality-Torrent wrote:
You missed my point though. The author claimed that the Space Wolfs should be compared to the US marines. Which is imo pretty far of the mark. Seeing it's even pretty clear the share a different heritage similarity to the "vikings" even though that's also a pretty poor boast.

Well...

No, not the SW in particular, but SM in general I can see his point.

Mind you, of course, you have to understand that I do, in fact, think of the US military and police in general as slightly lower on the sliding sale of righteousness than, say, mercs. After all, I've never had a merc beat and kill women and children or torture prisoners and spout 'I was just following orders...' ('I want more money' or 'I felt like it'. most certainly, but never that it was alright because someone with more bars told them to.)

But this takes us down an intensely political discussion.

Indeed it is a difficult topic to discuss. War is a cruel thing, it's horrible and it's very nature is as opposite to what we would declare human as possible can. Don't mistake me for a pacifist, I am not though I hold no illusions that it's a pretty matter. Looking at the history of our species it is quite clear that war is an unavoidable part of what we do, even an necessary part perhaps. Though to claim the warriors of mankind to be "good", "kind", "humane" (based on the common ideal of our society and the norms therein) is madness. War is violence and horror and can never be anything else. To think differently is naive.

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:
Salamanders do the same thing.
Tau are actually more sympathetic to civvies than SW, or anyone really. Their priority when they are invaded is to evacuate ALL civilians.
Ultrasmurfs are awful, but not evil.
In fact, most loyalist SM aren't really "evil", even certain CSM aren't (see: Night Lords)
Eldar aren't evil at all.


Certain things like DE, orks and nids aren't really evil, battling only for survival.

Chaos is evil.
The guard (in execution of their task, not in their purpose) is somewhat evil.
The inquisition CAN be evil, but is more of a "sacrifice the few, save the many" kinda thing.

Night Lords not evil? Have you read the part where they described what used to be their fortress? Living people nailed to the walls and intubed so they would not die. Their walls were made of living people. With servitors tasked to keep the walls "alive". That's pretty far out.

Eldars have butchered women and children before with barely a blink. Eldar might not be "evil" in the traditional sense of the word but they are not above killing civilians.

Erik_Morkai wrote:
Eldars have butchered women and children before with barely a blink. Eldar might not be "evil" in the traditional sense of the word but they are not above killing civilians.

Eldar are too factionally diverse to lump them together like that.

'Let me give you some advice, Captain,' he said, 'It may help you to make sense of the world. I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'
Terry Pratchett's Guards! Guards!

So we have Dark Eldar, who look down on you as a debased and primitive species, and think you are only useful as slaves and raw materials.

Then we have the Exodite Eldar, who look down on you as a debased and primitive species (yes, even compared to them), and exterminate all humans as invaders and violators of their hippy drum circles.

Finally, we have the Craftworld Eldar, who look down on you as a debased and primitive species, and frequently orchestrate events that can result in billions of dead humans if that's what it takes to preserve a few Eldar lives (redirecting Waaghs or Tyranid fleets, et al). At best, they wish you would just stay out of their way and left them alone. At worst, they are like the Archon in charge of the Cabal, who would love to see humanity extinct. Harlequins probably don't view the humans too kindly, either, seeing as humans are the main font from which the Chaos Gods draw their power.

Eldar are dicks. All Xenos are debased scum and should be exterminated. That's the only thing the loyalist and Chaos Astartes can agree on.

Sturmtruppen wrote:'Let me give you some advice, Captain,' he said, 'It may help you to make sense of the world. I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'
Terry Pratchett's Guards! Guards!

Well said sir! Well said!

SickSix wrote:I have yet to see Salamander's portrayed in a negative light. They are truly the 'Good Guys' of 40k.

Tau 'appear' to be good but there is definitely some indications that they may not be quite so under the surface. (mind control and all that mess)

The mind control thing is in-universe imperial speculation. They misjudge the tau psychology so thoroughly, and i t is so alien to them, that they cannot see such devotion existing species wide without help. Well guess what: pheromones do not cover every inch of all tau space, and would in fact only work within a couple metres.

And with sallies, they seem to have the best intentions, but still don't bother saving aspirants who fail, simply letting them die, which is bad.

Sturmtruppen wrote:'Let me give you some advice, Captain,' he said, 'It may help you to make sense of the world. I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'
Terry Pratchett's Guards! Guards!

Eh, that's too cynical for even me. I've met decent people. And occasionally done bad things to bad men so that those decent people can go to sleep at night and not have to worry about if they're going to be beaten, raped, murdered, and their home burned. (Sadly, the first mental image I get as I write this was of New York state troopers dragging a pregnant native woman from her home and beating her with night sticks for no other reason than she was native. And the man they shot six times in the back [ironically, a Marine on leave visiting his family, IIRC]).

Americans like to pose and posture like they're the good guys, but when you get down to it, there's a reason they refuse to recognize the international war crimes tribunal. I know I, personally, would like to see Medina and Calley stretch hemp, myself, and the closest I've been to Vietnam was Thailand.

The Space wolves are the Emps loyal dogs, and they are great at that role, when the emp sent the space wolves to arrest Magnus, they instead decided to kill him, they have their uses but are unsubtle, their a lot like Legate Lianis from Fallout, good for a tough battle, but you wouldn't want them in any position of responsibility. It shows you that the emp didn't even think about making Russ Warmaster. Good warrior, maybe even a decent general, but nothing like Horus.

ZSO SAHALL wrote:The Space wolves are the Emps loyal dogs, and they are great at that role, when the emp sent the space wolves to arrest Magnus, they instead decided to kill him, they have their uses but are unsubtle, their a lot like Legate Lianis from Fallout, good for a tough battle, but you wouldn't want them in any position of responsibility. It shows you that the emp didn't even think about making Russ Warmaster. Good warrior, maybe even a decent general, but nothing like Horus.

Decided nothing, they were ordered to invade by Horus.

Horus duped Russ into doing what was in Russ's nature, to attack and ask questions first. I'm not saying Russ was a bad Legion cammander, i'm saying he was a blunt instrument who was not the equal of Primarchs like Horus who were more statesman then warrior.

ZSO SAHALL wrote:Horus duped Russ into doing what was in Russ's nature, to attack and ask questions first. I'm not saying Russ was a bad Legion cammander, i'm saying he was a blunt instrument who was not the equal of Primarchs like Horus who were more statesman then warrior.

Hardly duped. He gave him a straightforward order. Any primarch would have obeyed horus.

The blood angels are good guys in 40k, but their successor chapter the Lamenters are some of the most human of all the space marines which makes them good guys. But I agree with previous posts the ultramarines are probably some of the best.

I doubt many would have besides Russ, maybe the Guiliman, certainly not fulgrim or any of the smarter less sycophantic primarchs.

Sturmtruppen wrote:'Let me give you some advice, Captain,' he said, 'It may help you to make sense of the world. I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'
Terry Pratchett's Guards! Guards!

+1 for Discworld quote

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:

ZSO SAHALL wrote:The Space wolves are the Emps loyal dogs, and they are great at that role, when the emp sent the space wolves to arrest Magnus, they instead decided to kill him, they have their uses but are unsubtle, their a lot like Legate Lianis from Fallout, good for a tough battle, but you wouldn't want them in any position of responsibility. It shows you that the emp didn't even think about making Russ Warmaster. Good warrior, maybe even a decent general, but nothing like Horus.

Decided nothing, they were ordered to invade by Horus.

You are wrong. Russ was not ordered. It clearly states that Horus told Russ of the evil deeds Magnus was guilty of, Russ a man of unstable nature decided that he rather kill Magnus then capture him. Ofc this is what Horus wanted, so he manipulated Russ. Though he did not order him. Point made.

Reality-Torrent wrote:

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:

ZSO SAHALL wrote:The Space wolves are the Emps loyal dogs, and they are great at that role, when the emp sent the space wolves to arrest Magnus, they instead decided to kill him, they have their uses but are unsubtle, their a lot like Legate Lianis from Fallout, good for a tough battle, but you wouldn't want them in any position of responsibility. It shows you that the emp didn't even think about making Russ Warmaster. Good warrior, maybe even a decent general, but nothing like Horus.

Decided nothing, they were ordered to invade by Horus.

You are wrong. Russ was not ordered. It clearly states that Horus told Russ of the evil deeds Magnus was guilty of, Russ a man of unstable nature decided that he rather kill Magnus then capture him. Ofc this is what Horus wanted, so he manipulated Russ. Though he did not order him. Point made up.

Fixed.

Kasper Ansbach Hawser caused the attack. Leman Russ asked Magnus to evacuate civilians and surrender peacefully, but the skjald Kasper failed to deliver this message, leading Leman Russ to believe it had been ignored, and attacking Prospero.

Of course he failed to deliver it. He had nothing to do with Magnus. At all. The whole "OMG THE EVUL SORCERERS R SPYIN' ON US!" panic the Wolves were in was a figment of their imagination.

DarknessEternal wrote:They do no such thing.

Try actually reading the lore instead of pulling misinformation from thin air.

That is very specifically what they do-- they hunt down apostates and prevent individual priests from obtaining too much power.

The Sisters follow only the Emperor in the end. All others beings are either servants of the Emperor... or His enemies.

In the grim darkness of the future their is only idiocy

Jefffar wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.

Talk about off-topic...

The guy asked about Good factions in the universe.

The Tau are one of the few who come close to that.

I disagree. It might just be my hate for the Tau, but I think that the Tau are truly no better than the IoM really, they just hide it under all that GM, Greater Good and Communist crap. I would have said good guys would be your average Eldar Civillian on a very minor Craftworld.

Omegus wrote:Of course he failed to deliver it. He had nothing to do with Magnus. At all. The whole "OMG THE EVUL SORCERERS R SPYIN' ON US!" panic the Wolves were in was a figment of their imagination.

In fairness, considering the weird espionage and politicking between the legions it's not a hard assumption to make that the spy they discovered in their midst was sent by their rivals...
Very few suspected Horus of anything, that's probably why the whole Heresy was so devastating...

Urien_Rakarth wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.

Talk about off-topic...

The guy asked about Good factions in the universe.

The Tau are one of the few who come close to that.

I disagree. It might just be my hate for the Tau, but I think that the Tau are truly no better than the IoM really, they just hide it under all that GM, Greater Good and Communist crap. I would have said good guys would be your average Eldar Civillian on a very minor Craftworld.

Not quite. The Tau Empire is expansionist but not genocidial. It also manages to provide adequate living conditions to it's population. Hiding stuff under "communist crap" is impossible because the idiotic notion
that the Tau Empire is communist has been disproven countless times before. For Warhammer 40k they are perhaps the only larger faction which might be, under certain conditions, called good guys.
Everywhere else the Tau would be the evil empire that has to be stoped by a plucky young hero and his loyal companions.