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SgtSixkilla wrote:I love how every tiny bit of rumor is met with a planet sized choir of whining, crying, doomsaying, conspiracy theorizing and sphincter tightening. It's hilarious that everyone thinks every tiny change is going to ruin their game, because it messes with their carefully cheesed up, unbeatable list.

Amazing that the one rumor that really would have turned 40K upside down was also the rumor that almost everybody was most enthusiastic about. But everybody will see what they want to see.

I kinda like what I'm seeing, but still, there are two other things I want to see :

1-BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

2-Vehicule transport use being nerfed down.

We had percentages in 2nd edition.

At last someone else old enough to remember this stuff.

I look forward to 6th coming but i dont want to see a re-hash of the 2nd edition rules. Which! i must say have been gradually dripfed back into the codexes over the last 2 editions.

% FOC no probs for me, as long as hq doesnt go back to 50%. As for random psychics am not convinced.

I hope they bring back 2nd edition armor penetration rules since Im the only person I know who still has it memorized!

Strength + Wounds Caused + D6! Hence why lascannons were 3d6 + 9 armor pen

Actually come to think of it I hope they dont bring it back

Kirasu wrote:I hope they bring back 2nd edition armor penetration rules since Im the only person I know who still has it memorized!

Strength + Wounds Caused + D6! Hence why lascannons were 3d6 + 9 armor pen

Actually come to think of it I hope they dont bring it back

I do hope we get weapons with actual penetration rules though. Everything being ccw or power weapon is so annoying.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Kirasu wrote:I hope they bring back 2nd edition armor penetration rules since Im the only person I know who still has it memorized!

Strength + Wounds Caused + D6! Hence why lascannons were 3d6 + 9 armor pen

Actually come to think of it I hope they dont bring it back

I do hope we get weapons with actual penetration rules though. Everything being ccw or power weapon is so annoying.

The AP system in 40k is a terrible mess as is. My preference would be to see the system fantasy uses. A shotgun should not be as good at penetrating marine armor as a heavy bolter.

Therion wrote:

I will also add that vehicles use "hull points" in 6th. If a vehicle has 3 hull points it will die after 3 shaken results, but it can still explode after 1 shot as normal.

...everything's going as scripted.

People use transports and tanks in their armies and probably don't need any new vehicle models anymore since they already have everything? NERF tanks to the max so we can sell everyone Descent of Angels armies and other full infantry forces!

Considering that the current vehicle damage chart is so janky to begin with that a rhino can go pretty much an entire game without getting destroyed that this revamp will be most welcome. This also makes monoliths and landraiders slightly weaker which is not a bad thing either. If you look at the current Eldar codex though this would DESTROY them beyond beliefe, so if this true then I do forsee their new codex rather soon as other rumors suggest.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Kirasu wrote:I hope they bring back 2nd edition armor penetration rules since Im the only person I know who still has it memorized!

Strength + Wounds Caused + D6! Hence why lascannons were 3d6 + 9 armor pen

Actually come to think of it I hope they dont bring it back

I do hope we get weapons with actual penetration rules though. Everything being ccw or power weapon is so annoying.

Or mayb we<ll get something along the lines of WHFB (the STR of an attack reducing the value of an armor save).
Thought this would be impossible after thinking about it, since it would make the whole AP thing useless. Yeah, AP CC is more credible. I do hope to see many of these >

Considering that the purpose of the 40k rules is to sell miniatures, I'm guessing that we'll see a set that increases the model count for a "normal" sized game slightly. And one that rewards quantity a bit more than quantity.

And for those who started playing in the vehicle-heavy meta, GW needs them to keep buying, so they'll nerf vehicles and make something else the new top choice.

Jervis told us that over two thirds of GW's customers don't play their games (he called them "craft hobbyists"). So the game rules only need to be mostly functional as a game and then fulfill their primary function of being an idea in people's heads to help them value the models more so they'll buy them.

frozenwastes wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:
Granted, but random powers are not what made them a huge company. Random powers don't even make sense: if the Librarian that leads your army has an aptitude for teleportation (read: knows the Gate of Infinity power), he's unlikely to forget it and learn some completely unrelated power. You might as well start forcing people to roll to see whether they're allowed to bring any Devastator Squads or whether there aren't any available to your strike force.

I agree. One of the things I miss about 40k was the time I spent writing the stories of my chapter and my dark eldar kabal. In Warmachine you only have special named characters and there is no customization. Instead of creating a character from scratch and writing fluff for them, you basically have fanfic of someone else's character.

So to take away what the librarian can do in his fiction and make it unreliable means that element is slightly eroded for those who like a strong link between the stories they tell on the table top and those they write down or type.

I remember playing nids in 2E and having a lot more control over what psychic powers I could do than my non-nid playing counterparts.

There are lots of things GW should bring back from 2E, but I agree that random powers are probably not one of them.

If anyone has ever seen my army posts they will notice 1 major thing. I am here for the story. If GW takes away the FoC then so be it. As long as I can continue to make the rules on how my models look and why (Certain shoulderpads for certain characters etc) then I am happy. This is also the reason I stay away from games that have limited fluff. I like having my mind interacting rather them just replying.

Lysenis wrote:

Therion wrote:

I will also add that vehicles use "hull points" in 6th. If a vehicle has 3 hull points it will die after 3 shaken results, but it can still explode after 1 shot as normal.

...everything's going as scripted.

People use transports and tanks in their armies and probably don't need any new vehicle models anymore since they already have everything? NERF tanks to the max so we can sell everyone Descent of Angels armies and other full infantry forces!

Considering that the current vehicle damage chart is so janky to begin with that a rhino can go pretty much an entire game without getting destroyed that this revamp will be most welcome. This also makes monoliths and landraiders slightly weaker which is not a bad thing either. If you look at the current Eldar codex though this would DESTROY them beyond beliefe, so if this true then I do forsee their new codex rather soon as other rumors suggest.

It won't be as bad as what fifth did to Necrons or Tau. Both those armies became effectively useless, necrons especially so.

UltraPrime wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:How does the FOC stuff work in Fantasy that's so different from 40k? I don't know Fantasy at all.

Its percentages. 0-50% Lords, 25%+ Core, 0-50% Special and 0-25% Rare. This could translate as 0-50% HQ, 0-25% Elite, 25%+ Troop, 0-50% Fast Attack, 0-25% Heavy Support.

That would be weird. . .Thats saying in a 2,000 point game i can run upwards of 4 special characters. . . .only 500 points of elites and heavy, 1,000 points of troops / fast attack. . . .broken. here is why.

Blood angles codex 2,000 points:
Reclusiarch with Jump Pack
Reclusiarch with Jump Pack
Librarian with Jump Pack
Librarian with Jump Pack

Elites:
2x Sanguinary Guard w/ Jump Pack & Power Weapon


Troops:
10-man Assault squad w/ 2x meltagun Serg w/ Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
10-man Assault squad w/ 2x meltagun Serg w/ Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

Fast Attack:
Baal Pred w/ Flamestorm Cannon
Baal Pred w/ Flamestorm Cannon
Baal Pred w/ T-L Assault Cannon
Baal Pred w/ T-L Assault Cannon
Baal Pred w/ T-L Assault Cannon & Heavy Bolter Sponsons


Heavy Support:
Pred w/ Lascannon sponsons

I wanna say my math is almost exact.

After double checking my math it is 2,000 exact. Since the rumors make vehicle spam unlikely with transports lets do it with 5 outflanking scouting vehicles shall we?

This is why the switch in the FoC to be like fantasy will be brokenish and just plain wrong.

Lysenis wrote:

UltraPrime wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:How does the FOC stuff work in Fantasy that's so different from 40k? I don't know Fantasy at all.

Its percentages. 0-50% Lords, 25%+ Core, 0-50% Special and 0-25% Rare. This could translate as 0-50% HQ, 0-25% Elite, 25%+ Troop, 0-50% Fast Attack, 0-25% Heavy Support.

That would be weird. . .Thats saying in a 2,000 point game i can run upwards of 4 special characters. . . .only 500 points of elites and heavy, 1,000 points of troops / fast attack. . . .broken. here is why.

Blood angles codex 2,000 points:
Reclusiarch with Jump Pack
Reclusiarch with Jump Pack
Librarian with Jump Pack
Librarian with Jump Pack

Elites:
2x Sanguinary Guard w/ Jump Pack & Power Weapon


Troops:
10-man Assault squad w/ 2x meltagun Serg w/ Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
10-man Assault squad w/ 2x meltagun Serg w/ Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

Fast Attack:
Baal Pred w/ Flamestorm Cannon
Baal Pred w/ Flamestorm Cannon
Baal Pred w/ T-L Assault Cannon
Baal Pred w/ T-L Assault Cannon
Baal Pred w/ T-L Assault Cannon & Heavy Bolter Sponsons


Heavy Support:
Pred w/ Lascannon sponsons

I wanna say my math is almost exact.

After double checking my math it is 2,000 exact. Since the rumors make vehicle spam unlikely with transports lets do it with 5 outflanking scouting vehicles shall we?

This is why the switch in the FoC to be like fantasy will be brokenish and just plain wrong.

That army doesn't particularly frighten me to be honest. I'd be much more concerned with the grey knight acolyte spam army that can have 25 Chimeras at 2000 points or the blood angels army with 16 death company dreads.

There is no way this is true, if they changed the forced org chart so that it was percentage based, it would be insane. Lets say heavy can be up to 25% of your army. Do you know how many long fang squads you could take lol?

ShumaGorath wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Kirasu wrote:I hope they bring back 2nd edition armor penetration rules since Im the only person I know who still has it memorized!

Strength + Wounds Caused + D6! Hence why lascannons were 3d6 + 9 armor pen

Actually come to think of it I hope they dont bring it back

I do hope we get weapons with actual penetration rules though. Everything being ccw or power weapon is so annoying.

The AP system in 40k is a terrible mess as is. My preference would be to see the system fantasy uses. A shotgun should not be as good at penetrating marine armor as a heavy bolter.

Same here!

I'm 100% OK with bringing back armor save modifiers and also returning Terminator Armor to its rightful position at the top!

haroon wrote:There is no way this is true, if they changed the forced org chart so that it was percentage based, it would be insane. Lets say heavy can be up to 25% of your army. Do you know how many long fang squads you could take lol?

it'd require something to prevent spam, to be sure. The percentages are a better system though, it's just unreasonably undercosted units like long fangs and an unlimited cap on troops that would break it. The current force org system is pretty broken as it is. Almost every codex does several things to invalidate it.

haroon wrote:There is no way this is true, if they changed the forced org chart so that it was percentage based, it would be insane. Lets say heavy can be up to 25% of your army. Do you know how many long fang squads you could take lol?

Even WHFB has that taken care of. You can currently only include 2 of the same Rare units, but your rare units must be under 25% of your total army cost.

So if your Heavy Slots are 25% of your force, then they can implement the same restriction. That means that you're only restricted to 2 Long Fang Squads... (or however they decide to format that).

And don't forget about the special gear for characters and units ! Like for SW in a way, characters cannot have the same special gear and units cannot take the same special option. I'd like to see what this would give.

frozenwastes wrote:Considering that the purpose of the 40k rules is to sell miniatures, I'm guessing that we'll see a set that increases the model count for a "normal" sized game slightly. And one that rewards quantity a bit more than quantity.

We've already been going down that route since late 4th with the decrease in price for units across the board. Dark Angels brought it with 35 point Rhinos and Marines who cost 15 points but came with bolt pistols and grenades. I don't know what benefits they could give to huge squads that they don't already have now, aside from a return to outnumbering being a factor in close combat. Even still, that would favor horde armies as opposed to elite armies. You have to wonder, while GW favors armies that require more models, I don't think they would do something that blatantly favors them over Marines who are their posterboys.

Brother SRM wrote:

frozenwastes wrote:Considering that the purpose of the 40k rules is to sell miniatures, I'm guessing that we'll see a set that increases the model count for a "normal" sized game slightly. And one that rewards quantity a bit more than quantity.

We've already been going down that route since late 4th with the decrease in price for units across the board. Dark Angels brought it with 35 point Rhinos and Marines who cost 15 points but came with bolt pistols and grenades. I don't know what benefits they could give to huge squads that they don't already have now, aside from a return to outnumbering being a factor in close combat. Even still, that would favor horde armies as opposed to elite armies. You have to wonder, while GW favors armies that require more models, I don't think they would do something that blatantly favors them over Marines who are their posterboys.

I don't think they're really that concerned. It's not like a change of that nature would impact sales in isolate. It would only really do much harm were it somehow overpowering of horde armies. As it is, anything that depowers gray knights a bit would sell every army that isn't gray knights better.

Well, nerfing vehicles would sell more models that are on foot. So that's a start.

6th edition era codecies could drop marines down to 14 points.

Now that I think about it though, the game has already reached a point where the normal size game is big enough that the majority of GW's customers quit before they play it at that size (if they ever play it at all). Perhaps the 40k rules are now the optimal size for marketing purposes.

The other way they could increase the game sizes is to speed things up. Make running/fleet/assault all one single movement of the model so the game isn't slown down by measuring multiple times for the same model. They could streamline as many subsystems and possible to make the game play faster.

How would this increase the model count? Well then the section about points values could say that 2000 or 2500 points is a "normal game that will take a couple of hours" rather than 1500 or 1700.

If they can add 10%-25% to the model count by speeding the game up, then those who aspire to play the game in its full size will need that many more models.

I don't think GW believes that eternally upping the average game size is sustainable, and it's unlikely that they're going to attempt to force the issue with every new base edition. Fifth edition didn't up the size of armies, fifth edition codexes upped the size of armies by reducing the cost of units and encouraging certain forms of spam. The rulebook itself only gives a very vague suggestion of what point value to play the game at. The codexes have been giving us ~225 point infantry blocks for a long time now. It's been a conscious decision of the community to up average play size.

The largest army still realistically viable is horde orks and that's been a staple since fourth. Mech spam is a significantly larger investment monetarily than the balanced force that GW is likely to attempt to force with the new edition. GW will hopefuly recognize that it'll sell more models by stemming the loss of it's playerbase by introducing a good core rule set, not by idiotic gimmicks that aren't even being observed in the current edition.

Wow I've played and loved this game for 6 years now and in one edition they will turn it into Fantasy? I know there are fantasy lovers out there, but I'm not one of that camp.

They pull this garbage and you fellas might be looking at some great ebay deals from me. If I wanted Fantasy I'd play it.

Mr.Church13 wrote:Wow I've played and loved this game for 6 years now and in one edition they will turn it into Fantasy? I know there are fantasy lovers out there, but I'm not one of that camp.

They pull this garbage and you fellas might be looking at some great ebay deals from me. If I wanted Fantasy I'd play it.

And the prize for the most overblown and non sensical reaction goes to..... Mr.Church!

Borrowing some better army composition rules from fantasy doesn't suddenly turn 40k into an entirely different game.

Mr.Church13 wrote:Wow I've played and loved this game for 6 years now and in one edition they will turn it into Fantasy? I know there are fantasy lovers out there, but I'm not one of that camp.

They pull this garbage and you fellas might be looking at some great ebay deals from me. If I wanted Fantasy I'd play it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's not fantasy-it's just taking a few successful bits from fantasy, if these rumors hold true. A %-based FOC is leaps and bounds better than what we have now. It'll allow some armies, like Daemons and Nids to have a better profile on the table-two arguably weak 5th edition codexes gaining strength in the coming edition. Hell, if this and the vehicle rules pan out, don't EVER update my Daemons-they'll be perfect as is. That said...

Yeah, it would still be 40k. I think like many people that FB is more balanced, ad I approve this idea of maybe borrowing some rules from them, or at least use them as a staple.

Kroothawk wrote:We had percentages in 2nd edition.

This. 1000% times this. All of these rumors have been done before. It's not like some new-fangled rules-mongering. They have tried these things in the past.

I absolutely love percentages. Why? It forces people to come up with creative lists. It also allows people more freedom to make fluffy lists that are still competitive. Finally, it puts a damper (in my opinion) on netlisting. I mean, people can post their "killer" list, but it doesn't mean that a more creative person cannot simply come up with a better version at any time. The FoC chart we have is fairly static. If you build a list around it, it is easy to copy, but percentages brought out lists that were off-the-wall, but worked. People who like to netlist would look at a similar list and think "WTF?"

It allows you to mold your army to your liking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alpharius wrote:

I'm 100% OK with bringing back armor save modifiers and also returning Terminator Armor to its rightful position at the top!

Ah yes. 3+ on 2D6 with a chart of modifiers. 6-hour games!

Ah yes. 3+ on 2D6 with a chart of modifiers. 6-hour games!

The fantasy system of armor modification doesn't even require a chart. It requires you to be able to count above four. If that's making your games six+ hours than I don't know if I want to live on this planet any more.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:Wow I've played and loved this game for 6 years now and in one edition they will turn it into Fantasy? I know there are fantasy lovers out there, but I'm not one of that camp.

They pull this garbage and you fellas might be looking at some great ebay deals from me. If I wanted Fantasy I'd play it.

And the prize for the most overblown and non sensical reaction goes to..... Mr.Church!

Borrowing some better army composition rules from fantasy doesn't suddenly turn 40k into an entirely different game.

But that's just it... copy the magic to psychic, bring over the composition rules, change the saves system to fantasy's, and the game becomes fantasy with no square bases and a few tanks. I'm an accountant all freaking day. I really don't want to calculate a list, recalculate it, and then redo the whole thing if I change one guy to a Nob with power klaw.

2nd ed 40k only took 6 hours if you tried to play gigantic games. The game was meant for 20-40 miniatures a side with a few vehicles. If you tried to play a game with a huge model count with tons of characters with special equipment and special rules, that was when things slowed down.

My 2nd ed 1500 points space marine army was like 30 models and a couple tanks and an allied inquisitor. My nids had maybe 50 models including a Carnifex, a Hive Tyrant, 6 warriors and a smattering of genestealers, hormagaunts, termigants and gargoyles.

Games never took more than 2 hours.

Now I play Warmachine as it gives me the same sized game with the same level of detail in around the same time. Privateer smartly figured out that they should make their game be the same size as GW did back when GW grew into an international company.

GW needs to go back to their roots and make a game that is playable as a full game experience with the same number of models as back in 2nd ed. Not some shallow "40k in 40 minutes" thing where you can't take a bunch of stuff because it'll break things, but a real game with depth.

I don't think they'll do this. I think they'll keep pushing the 40-50+ model armies (and up over 120 in some cases) because they don't make the game to be played, but to use it as an idea to put in people's heads to help them decide to buy models.

Why should GW put any significant amount of resources into redesigning the game? From their perspective, they should do the bare minimum needed to justify selling you the game over again as a new edition.