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Aerial Assault: If the model moved at cruising speed it can fire all of its weapons.

A skimmer that is not immobilized and has moved flat out in its last Movement phase counts as obscured.

The conflict seems to be here: can a vehicle be moving both flat out and at cruising speed in the same turn? Or are they mutually exclusive categories?

If the answer is "yes, RPJ lets you" then you get a 4+ and can fire everything. If the answer is "no, you are in either one class or the other," then you have to choose.

IMO, RPJ doesn't give you the ability to be moving two different speeds, you choose whichever speed you want. But I can see arguments both ways.

Biccat sort of has it, its a black hole of logic.

here's my take:
RPJ:
if you move 13 inches, you ignore the penalties for moving that extra inch (but says nothing about bonuses)
so figure this. you are going flat out (which gives you the cover save) since you moved 13 inches
but you are moving flat out, so this bypasses the supersonic rule
BUT! you can fire a single weapon (like you were a normal vehicle flying cruising) because you are ignoring the penalty for flat out.

so in total:
-if you get the cover save, you are flat out
-flat out means no supersonic rule
-but you can shoot one gun because normal fast vehicles going 12 can shoot one gun

Does this make sense? I think this is the best happy medium until next edition.

biccat wrote: Or are they mutually exclusive categories?

I think this would probably give the best answer to our question.

For my money, I'd say yes they are. But I don't have my book with me.

biccat wrote:

Aerial Assault: If the model moved at cruising speed it can fire all of its weapons.

A skimmer that is not immobilized and has moved flat out in its last Movement phase counts as obscured.

The conflict seems to be here: can a vehicle be moving both flat out and at cruising speed in the same turn? Or are they mutually exclusive categories?

If the answer is "yes, RPJ lets you" then you get a 4+ and can fire everything. If the answer is "no, you are in either one class or the other," then you have to choose.

IMO, RPJ doesn't give you the ability to be moving two different speeds, you choose whichever speed you want. But I can see arguments both ways.

Uh, there is nothing preventing your from counting as moving 12" (= cruising speed) just for the purpose of shooting and disembarking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cryonicleech wrote:

biccat wrote: Or are they mutually exclusive categories?

I think this would probably give the best answer to our question.

For my money, I'd say yes they are. But I don't have my book with me.

They are only mutually exclusive if applied at the same time. You can apply flat out to movement distance and skimmer rules, while applying cruising speed to shooting and disembarking, There is no conflict.

Jidmah wrote:Uh, there is nothing preventing your from counting as moving 12" (= cruising speed) just for the purpose of shooting and disembarking.

If the terms are mutually exclusive (you can't cruise and go flat out), then I don't see how you get cruising for your turn and flat out for the opponent's turn. Certainly a model cannot have different movement speeds simply by virtue of whose turn it is...can you?

But if you're arguing that an Ork jet can travel both cruising speed and flat out at the same time (ignoring the penalties from both), then there's nothing wrong with your position.

If you shoot as if you are traveling at cruising speed, you might still move flat out.

You know, just like fast vehicles shoot as if they were moving at a slower speed/stationary.

Besides that, no rule says that flat out and cruising speed are mutually exclusive. They simply don't happen at the same time by coincidence.

You are looking for a contradiction where there is none.

The fact that we're still discussing this is ample evidence that it is not clear. I'm not sure you're wrong. But I'm also not sure you're right, so until I get official clarification, I don't see how it's fair to claim the advantage.

until an FAQ you could use "the most important rule!" in the first few pages of the rule book. they put it in incase stuff like this hapened just roll off to see for that game. 1 2 3 it does give cover and shoot all stuff. 4 5 6 you have to pick between them

The one tenet I actually do adhere to:

7. Do not bring The Most Important Rule (TMIR) into these rules discussions. While it is something you should most certainly abide by while playing (if you're not having fun, why ARE you playing?), it does not apply to rules debates.

Jidmah wrote:Besides that, no rule says that flat out and cruising speed are mutually exclusive. They simply don't happen at the same time by coincidence.

A vehicle that traves more than 6" and up to 12" is moving at cruising speed. (BRB pg. 57)

A fast vehicle going flat out moves more than 12" and up to 18" (BRB pg. 70)

That suggests that cruising and moving flat out are mutually exclusive. But there's no explanation for how this works. Are you moving "up to 12 inches" (and therefore at cruising speed), or are you moving "more than 12 inches" and therefore going flat out? Or, do you count as going 12" for some purposes and 13" for others?

Jidmah wrote:If you shoot as if you are traveling at cruising speed, you might still move flat out.

You know, just like fast vehicles shoot as if they were moving at a slower speed/stationary.

Besides that, no rule says that flat out and cruising speed are mutually exclusive.

Fast vehicles don't shoot as if they were moving slower. They have an exception to a rule that vehicles which aren't classed as fast do not.

Additionally, there isn't any evidence to suggest that the two terms are not mutually exclusive. Most evidence points to them being so.

biccat wrote:Or, do you count as going 12" for some purposes and 13" for others?

This is exactly what RPJ does. Between 12" and 13" you are moving flat out, but you could also count as moving cruising speed. RPJ clearly tells you when you are allowed to use cruising speed(when suffering penalties).

If you move 13" and use flat out to determine the number of weapons you can shoot, the vehicle is suffering a penalty and thus you are violating the rules.
If you move 13" and use cruising speed to determine whether you get a cover save, you try to count as moving one less inch for something that's not a penalty, and thus are violating the rules.

Cryonicleech wrote:Fast vehicles don't shoot as if they were moving slower. They have an exception to a rule that vehicles which aren't classed as fast do not.

Red ork vehicles have an exception to the rule which other vehicles do not. Your point is?

Additionally, there isn't any evidence to suggest that the two terms are not mutually exclusive.

There is also no rule that say that furious charge and move through cover are not mutually exclusive. So by your logic kommandoz may not move through cover.

Most evidence points to them being so.

Evidence not quoted is not evidence. Your argument is nothing but huge amounts of hot air. Unless you can provide a single rule preventing a vehicle from counting as cruising speed for just the purpose of disembarking and shooting, RPJ works exactly as written - you get to ignore all negative effects for moving one more inch.

Can't believe no one has posted this yet, from INAT:

◊ORK.93F.01 – Q: In what exact situations is the
bonus movement provided by Red Paint Job ignored?
A: The extra inch is only ignored when it would penalize the
Ork player. So for example, models onboard a Trukk with
Red Paint Job that moved 7” could still fire as if the vehicle
moved 6”, but if the Trukk was then assaulted by the enemy,
they would need ‘6’s to hit it as the Trukk counts as having
moved more than 6” to them [clarification].

Obviously their ruling isn't about the obscured cover save, but about rolls needed to hit. Their ruling follows the same train of thought that would allow you to move 13", count as moving 12" so you can shoot everything, but would still get the 4+ cover save. With a RPJ (according to them) you get all the advantages of moving 12" AND the advantages of moving 13" (4+ cover save and 6 to hit in melee).
INAT still isn't an official FAQ of course, but this might give an indication of how TO will rule about this question.

Requiem wrote:Can't believe no one has posted this yet, from INAT

Maybe because of the Tenets of You Make Da Call...

Tenets of You Make Da Call found here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

1. Don't make a statement without backing it up

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. (INAT is not valid in YMDC)

Etc.

As you can see in my post I have nowhere stated that this is what the rule must be because INAT states so. It was only an indication of what a TO might rule about the matter on the short term as I've seen at least one person who said he'd ask a TO...

Okay to back it up for you, I think the INAT ruling follows the RPJ rule because the RPJ rule "Ork Vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to their move in the Movement phase, but do not incur penalties for the extra inch." can (and imho should) be interpreted as the INAT does. You may move one extra inch, so your cruising speed would give you 13" while counting as having moved 12" for all purposes of shooting (as shooting less can be considered a penalty for having moved an additional inch), though you count as having moved 13" for anything that is not a penalty to the Ork player, e.g. 4+ cover save and a 6 to hit in melee.

I dont quite get the discussion and now that I think about it I'd say the INAT ruling is off. According to the RPJ rule a vehicle that has moved 13 inches counts as having moved 12 instead. It does not say that it only counts as having moved 12 inches for the sake of shooting. Not getting a 4+ cover save because it didn't move flat out is not a penalty, it just won't get it because it didn't move fast enough. You can't say it moved at cruising speed for shooting sake and flat-out for the sake of getting the cover save.

On the other hand one could say that moving flat-out 13" would make you loose the ability to shoot all of your weapons which you could see as a penalty I think.

I think we're going to have to wait for an official ruling on this one

Did anyone else notice that in the example for red paint job it specifically says they only count as moving 12, nothing about cruising speed or anything like that. It says they only count as moving 12. Would that not remove the issue all together?

Leth wrote:Did anyone else notice that in the example for red paint job it specifically says they only count as moving 12, nothing about cruising speed or anything like that. It says they only count as moving 12. Would that not remove the issue all together?

well that is my reasoning yes ^^

Jidmah wrote:If you move 13" and use flat out to determine the number of weapons you can shoot, the vehicle is suffering a penalty and thus you are violating the rules.
If you move 13" and use cruising speed to determine whether you get a cover save, you try to count as moving one less inch for something that's not a penalty, and thus are violating the rules.

Except that's not what RPJ says:
Ork Vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to their move in the Movement phase, but do not incur penalties for the extra inch

You get +1" movement, but do not get penalties for the extra inch. It doesn't say anything about whether you get the benefits for the extra inch, or whether you get the benefits for the slower speed.

If RPJ said "add +1 to their move, but use the original movement for the purposes of determining penalties" (or something similar), then I'd agree. The rule just says you get to move faster without penalties. Not being able to fire all of your weapons isn't a "penalty," it's a symptom of not moving at cruising speed. If the Aerial Assault rule said "may fire all of its weapons unless it moves flat out" rather than if it moved "cruising speed," then I'd also agree that the rule is unambiguous.

But Aerial Assault is a benefit for moving at cruising speed, losing it is not a penalty for moving flat out.

This particular discussion seems "much ado about nothing".

As has been indicated by Leth, Robbietobbie, Red Beard earlier (and maybe some others, sorry if I missed you), the very last sentence in the text (at least in this month's WD article about the Ork Jets) regarding RPJ states...

move 13", count as moving 12".

From this is should be extrapolated...

move between 13.1" and 25", count as moving 24"

... and further...

move between 25.1" and 37", count as moving 36"

I don't understand why this is so difficult for some of you to understand. I await the inevitable slagging from anyone who cares to disagree with great indifference.

Carry on....

MOVING FAST VEHICLES
“Fast vehicles are capable of a third level of speed, called
‘flat out’. A fast vehicle going flat out moves more than
12" and up to 18". This represents the fast vehicle
moving at top speed, without firing its guns and is
treated in all respects exactly the same as moving at
cruising speed for a vehicle that is not fast (except
where noted otherwise). For example, a fast vehicle
moving flat out on a road may move up to 24". Pg. 70 BRB

“Fast vehicles moving flat out may fire no weapons.” Pg.70 BRB

“Skimmers moving at high speed are very difficult to hit.
A skimmer that is not immobilised and has moved flat
out in its last Movement phase counts as obscured
(cover save of 4+) when fired at.” Pg.71 BRB

A vehicle moving more than 12” and up to 18 is moving flat out.

A vehicle moving flat out can fire no weapons. Pretty cut and dry. If a skimmer moves flat out, it gets a 4+ cover save, once again cut and dry.

Red Paint Job
“Orks believe that a vehicle that has been painted red can outstrip a similar vehicle that isn’t. As odd as it may seem, they are quite right. Ork vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to their move in the Movement phase but do not incure penalties for this extra inch. For example, a vehicle could move 13” and still count as moving 12” “ Pg. 93 Ork Codex

It says they do not incure penalties, but it does not say they gain the benefits from that extra inch either. In the given example it says a vehicle could move 13” and still count as moving as 12”. To me this reads it can move 13” and then decide if it wants to count as 13” ( flat out) or 12” cruising speed.
The big one is if a vehicle moves flat out, it maynot fire that turn. This does not say that it’s a penalty, if you claim you are going flat out for the cover save, then you are going flat out, ie cant shoot. Unless the BRB says it’s a penalty, its not.

If a dakkajet can move 13” claim flat out and fire all its weapons does that mean:
A battle wagon with RPJ can:
1)Move 7” (6”) and fire one weapon Pg.58 BRB
2 )Move 7”(6)’ have its 20 ork boyz fire out that back

“Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the
vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle
moved at Cruising speed that turn.”Pg.66 BRB

3) Only be hit on 6’s since it moved more than 6. Pg 63 brb

Did the above battle wagon move at combat or cruising speed if it moved 7” ?

Robbietobbie wrote:I dont quite get the discussion and now that I think about it I'd say the INAT ruling is off. According to the RPJ rule a vehicle that has moved 13 inches counts as having moved 12 instead.

The example says that the vehicle can count as moving 12", not that it counts as moving 12" for all purposes. Which is the wording in many, many other rules using counts-as.

Leth wrote:Did anyone else notice that in the example for red paint job it specifically says they only count as moving 12, nothing about cruising speed or anything like that. It says they only count as moving 12. Would that not remove the issue all together?

Vehicle speed is solely decided by how far you moved. Moving 6-12" and moving at cruising speed is exactly the same. Thus, a vehicle counting as having moved 12" or less would count as moving cruising speed at the same time.

biccat wrote:

Jidmah wrote:If you move 13" and use flat out to determine the number of weapons you can shoot, the vehicle is suffering a penalty and thus you are violating the rules.
If you move 13" and use cruising speed to determine whether you get a cover save, you try to count as moving one less inch for something that's not a penalty, and thus are violating the rules.

Except that's not what RPJ says:
Ork Vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to their move in the Movement phase, but do not incur penalties for the extra inch

You get +1" movement, but do not get penalties for the extra inch. It doesn't say anything about whether you get the benefits for the extra inch, or whether you get the benefits for the slower speed.

A fast vehicle moving more than 12" for any reason is not moving cruising speed but flat out, unless the rule explicitly says otherwise. Thus, you get all positive rules attached to moving flat out - red paint does not change anything about this.
It is impossible to move flat out while moving 12" or less. Thus, a vehicle counting as moving 12" or less can not be moving flat out and thus can never be subject to rules attached to moving flat out.

If a red vehicle need special permission to gain benefits from moving flat out, all vehicles do. By your argumentation no skimmer may ever claim a cover save for moving flat-out.
If a vehicle counting as moving cruising speed needs special permission to gain benefits from moving cruising speed, all vehicles do. By your argumentation no vehicle may ever shoot a weapon when moving cruising speed - or combat speed, for that matter.

If RPJ said "add +1 to their move, but use the original movement for the purposes of determining penalties" (or something similar), then I'd agree. The rule just says you get to move faster without penalties. Not being able to fire all of your weapons isn't a "penalty," it's a symptom of not moving at cruising speed.

So, an ice hockey player getting kicked of the field for some minutes is not suffering a penalty, but a symptom of hitting someone in the face with a hockey stick?

So, if "You may not shoot" is not a penalty, what is a penalty in 40k? If your answer is "nothing", you are obviously wrong.

If the Aerial Assault rule said "may fire all of its weapons unless it moves flat out" rather than if it moved "cruising speed," then I'd also agree that the rule is unambiguous.

But Aerial Assault is a benefit for moving at cruising speed, losing it is not a penalty for moving flat out.

Uh, what? Fast vehicles are allowed to shot one weapon+defensive even without moving aerial assault. Trukks and buggies have been moving 13" and shooting their big shootas/rokkits or disembarking boyz the entire 5th edition. Otherwise red paint wouldn't make much sense, would it?

So again, its a matter of choice. Do you want to move 13" at cruising speed and fire everything, or do you want to move 13" and claim a cover save?

Sorry, Charlie, time for the big boy pants. Can't have everything, its called life...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:So again, its a matter of choice. Do you want to move 13" at cruising speed and fire everything, or do you want to move 13" and claim a cover save?

Sorry, Charlie, time for the big boy pants. Can't have everything, its called life...

Maybe you enhance your insults with any rules at all?

Unless you quote single rule preventing a red vehicle from counting as moving 1" less just for the purpose of not suffering penalties, "Charlie" going to get both.

Nobody being able to add anything but "it feels wrong", "because I say so" or misquoting rules, since page one is a clear indication that there is no support for your opinion.

The problem with the RPJ argument is hinging on, is the movement is enough to be counted as flat out?

Page 70 BRB wrote:Fast vehicles are capable of a third level of speed, called ‘flat out’. A fast vehicle going flat out moves more than 12" and up to 18". This represents the fast vehicle moving at top speed, without firing its guns and is
treated in all respects exactly the same as moving at cruising speed for a vehicle that is not fast (except where noted otherwise). For example, a fast vehicle moving flat out on a road may move up to 24".

This tells us that if you are going 13" you are flat out, but that's not quite true. There is a second part that people don't seem to be noticing (Or are intentionally ignoring) that if you move flat out, you cannot shoot. Now we move on to the second quote I'll toss up.

Page 71 BRB wrote:Skimmers moving at high speed are very difficult to hit. A skimmer that is not immobilised and has moved flat out in its last Movement phase counts as obscured (cover save of 4+) when fired at.

So if we move flat out in the last movement phase the vehicle gets obscured. Wait a minute, the ork bomma may have moved 13", but it still shot. As you have not met the prerequisite of not shooting, you have not met the requirements for having moved flat out (Which specifically states no firing to gain flat out) which in the end means that the RPJ bomma has not gained obscured. If you shot, you did not "move at top speed, without firing its guns" which means you do not count as having moved flat out, and you cannot claim the cover save


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A few more blurbs to toss up as food for thought.

BRB page 70 wrote:Fast vehicles that move at cruising speed may fire a single weapon (plus all defensive weapons, just like other types of vehicle moving at combat speed).

Fast vehicles moving flat out may fire no weapons.

If the fast vehicle wants to move flat out it may fire no weapons. Did the RPJ equipped plane fire? Yes, then you didn't follow the rules and did not attain the flat out.

Jidmah wrote:

Robbietobbie wrote:I dont quite get the discussion and now that I think about it I'd say the INAT ruling is off. According to the RPJ rule a vehicle that has moved 13 inches counts as having moved 12 instead.

The example says that the vehicle can count as moving 12", not that it counts as moving 12" for all purposes. Which is the wording in many, many other rules using counts-as.

It CAN count as having moved 12" when it has moved 13". It's one or the other. Either you stick to the 13" and the bonus of getting a cover save (but not being allowed to fire any weapons) or you count it as having moved 12" which allows you to shoot but denies the cover save because you no longer count as having moved more than 12". Nowhere does it say that the RPJ only affects the distance the model is considered to have moved for the shooting phase only.

Robbietobbie wrote:It CAN count as having moved 12" when it has moved 13". It's one or the other. Either you stick to the 13" and the bonus of getting a cover save (but not being allowed to fire any weapons) or you count it as having moved 12" which allows you to shoot but denies the cover save because you no longer count as having moved more than 12". Nowhere does it say that the RPJ only affects the distance the model is considered to have moved for the shooting phase only.

Do you have any rules to back up your claim?

RPJ does not give permission to count as moving 12" for anything but penalties. Not being able to shoot is a penalty, thus you can count as moving 12" for the purpose of ignoring that penalty. Getting a cover save is not a penalty. If you try to count as moving 12" for not getting a cover save, your breaking the rules. You do not have permission to count as moving 12" for a benefit.

If you pick either cruising speed or flat-out for all purposes you are violating the rules. You are not allowed to do so.

You never shoot and take saves at the same time, so you would never count as going flat out an cruising speed at the same time anyways.

@Lone Dragon
RPJ explicitly ignores the limitations for moving that extra inch. If that extra inch makes you reach flat-out speed you ignore any penalties that come with it. "may fire no weapons" is a penalty.

In addition, flat-out doesn't require you to fire no weapons, it represents that. You aren't required to move at top speed (i.e. you full maximum movement distance) either.

If a dakkajet can move 13” claim flat out and fire all its weapons does that mean:
A battle wagon with RPJ can:
1)Move 7” (6”) and fire one weapon Pg.58 BRB
2 )Move 7”(6)’ have its 20 ork boyz fire out that back

“Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the
vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle
moved at Cruising speed that turn.”Pg.66 BRB

3) Only be hit on 6’s since it moved more than 6. Pg 63 brb

Did the above battle wagon move at combat or cruising speed if it moved 7” ?

Jidmah wrote:

Robbietobbie wrote:It CAN count as having moved 12" when it has moved 13". It's one or the other. Either you stick to the 13" and the bonus of getting a cover save (but not being allowed to fire any weapons) or you count it as having moved 12" which allows you to shoot but denies the cover save because you no longer count as having moved more than 12". Nowhere does it say that the RPJ only affects the distance the model is considered to have moved for the shooting phase only.

Do you have any rules to back up your claim?

RPJ does not give permission to count as moving 12" for anything but penalties. Not being able to shoot is a penalty, thus you can count as moving 12" for the purpose of ignoring that penalty. Getting a cover save is not a penalty. If you try to count as moving 12" for not getting a cover save, your breaking the rules. You do not have permission to count as moving 12" for a benefit.

If you pick either cruising speed or flat-out for all purposes you are violating the rules. You are not allowed to do so.

You never shoot and take saves at the same time, so you would never count as going flat out an cruising speed at the same time anyways.

Not being able to shoot might be a penalty but not getting a cover save because you moved flat out isn't. It's simply not getting a bonus because you did not fulfill the requirements to get it..
shooting: you CAN shoot UNLESS you move too fast
moving: you DON'T get a cover save UNLESS you move fast enough...
See the difference? It's the way the mechanic works

and you would count as going flat out and cruising speed at the same time since your movement affects last a game turn, not a player turn

How is this still going on. Four pages debating whether a rule is ambiguous or not kind of screams that it is. There wouldn't be four pages of contention if it was clear.