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Its not about Grey Knight players being douchebags, I don't blame the people that play them. Its GW's fault for making a Codex that is that broken.

I didn't blame Chaos players back in the day when they were an awesome army that was really close to unbeatable when played right, I just tried to figure out how to stop it with the army that I was playing at the time.

I didn't blame the Alaitoc players back when they had their Disruption Table and could totally shaft an opposing army before the game started. It wasn't the players fault that the army had the option to do that.

I believe that in previous editions the game was more balanced across the board but it seems apparent that in this edition the codexes seemed to grow more and more powerful as time passed to the point that certain ones just had broken units that really were quite ridiculous when combined with the rules of the current edition.

Here's to hoping that Wound Allocation gets a serious overhaul because it is the most abused thing in the game.

I've taken 2nd and 3rd place versus a bunch of net lists in a few tournaments using lists like the following. Mind you this is just one of my practice ones (I usually do a little trimming on things that don't work too great during practice). Over all though I tend to run a rather combined arms list. Chimeras, heavy weapons, at least one blob squad, Harker's squad is a staple of mine, air craft, and a few tank variants.


HQ - 250 points
Company Command Squad
Power Sword on commander
Plasma Pistol on commander
Vox
2x Body Guards
2x Plasma Guns
Astropath
Chimera dedicated transport
Medi-pak

Troops - 240 points
Veteran Squad
Harker
3x Melta Guns
Demolitions Doctrine
Chimera dedicated transport

Troops - 635
Platoon Command Squad
Power Sword on commander
Plasma Pistol on commander
Medi-pak
2x Plasma Gun
Vox
Chimera dedicated transport

Infantry Squad
Power Sword on Sergeant
Melta Bomb on Sergeant
Vox5

Infantry Squad
Power Sword on Sergeant
Melta Bomb on Sergeant
Vox

Infantry Squad
Power Sword on Sergeant
Melta Bomb on Sergeant
Vox
Commissar
Power Sword on Commissar

Heavy Weapons Squad
3x Lascannon

Heavy Weapons Squad
3x Lascannons

Fast Attack - 130 points
Vendetta

Fast Attack - 130 points
Vendetta

Fast Attack - 130 points
Valkyrie
Rocket Pods

Heavy Support - 150 points
Leman Russ

Heavy Support -165 points
Leman Russ Demolisher

Heavy Support -170 points
Leman Russ Vanquisher
Lascannon

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Reivax26 wrote:I would like to say that I am really happy with all the responses that I have gotten on here. It really does make me feel better to know that not everyone in the gaming world is a douche lol.

Using good units =/= being a douche.

KingCracker wrote:My argument about the GK is the fact that if you look at the tourny scene, ANY tourny scene, the GK just flood it, hands down. The reason? Mainly because they are OP and people like to WAAC, so bringing the GK is a better chance at that goal. And sure, the GK arnt AS bad as the Demons were for Fantasy, I mean they literally BROKE the damn game. But GK arnt that far behind in that regard. I mean you want to talk about balance, well explain to me how they are SO much better then a vanilla marine and at such a low cost, not to mention they get upgrades that are just incredibly WTF.

Citation needed. There are plenty of people out there that play Grey Knights that have always wanted a Grey Knight army but didn't want to build an almost all-metal army. Now they have plastics and people flock to them. We really don't know why people play Grey Knights, so let's not claim that most people only play them because they're "OP".

Yea, its definitely the plastic that made the GK such a popular army to play......has dick to do with the near broken rules they have

Why is it always the players that gets blamed and not the company?

Especially companies that makes it SO OBVIOUSLY the new shinny things they want to sell happen to be the most efficient.

It isn't really about blame. We all know who is to blame and it isn't the players. The part that players can control is the part where we choose what to play.

The reason why I started the thread was to see if anyone had been successful with army builds that were outside what was considered to be "Optimal" by whatever percentage of people.

LunaHound wrote:Why is it always the players that gets blamed and not the company?

Especially companies that makes it SO OBVIOUSLY the new shinny things they want to sell happen to be the most efficient.

^This.

Honestly, you can't blame the customers. It's like complaining that a restaurant's best dish sells too much while no one orders their dirt and poop steak. Gee, I wonder why.

LunaHound wrote:Why is it always the players that gets blamed and not the company?

Especially companies that makes it SO OBVIOUSLY the new shinny things they want to sell happen to be the most efficient.

Because when you attack the company or the author and play tester either or both sets of defending white knights come to attack. It's a no-win scenario.

KingCracker wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Reivax26 wrote:I would like to say that I am really happy with all the responses that I have gotten on here. It really does make me feel better to know that not everyone in the gaming world is a douche lol.

Using good units =/= being a douche.

KingCracker wrote:My argument about the GK is the fact that if you look at the tourny scene, ANY tourny scene, the GK just flood it, hands down. The reason? Mainly because they are OP and people like to WAAC, so bringing the GK is a better chance at that goal. And sure, the GK arnt AS bad as the Demons were for Fantasy, I mean they literally BROKE the damn game. But GK arnt that far behind in that regard. I mean you want to talk about balance, well explain to me how they are SO much better then a vanilla marine and at such a low cost, not to mention they get upgrades that are just incredibly WTF.

Citation needed. There are plenty of people out there that play Grey Knights that have always wanted a Grey Knight army but didn't want to build an almost all-metal army. Now they have plastics and people flock to them. We really don't know why people play Grey Knights, so let's not claim that most people only play them because they're "OP".

Yea, its definitely the plastic that made the GK such a popular army to play......has dick to do with the near broken rules they have

Lots of people jumped on to Grey Knights at release, before they were established as a powerful army, but I'm sure that's because most Grey Knight players are WAAC doucebags, right?

How many times do I have to say this: not all Grey Knight players are douchebags. It just seems to be the army that draws the most powergamers to it because it is the easiest army to win with in this edition that we are playing in. If you want to play Grey Knights play them, I really don't care. As long as you are a good guy who plays a good game and good times are had then I am all for it.

I don't care to lose to a nice guy who is playing a really good list but I do care to lose to a powergaming douchebag who is only playing an army for the purpose of tabling everyone he plays in the most cutthroat way possible. I like to have fun when I play and laugh at the crazy stuff that happens.

Reivax26 wrote:How many times do I have to say this: not all Grey Knight players are douchebags. It just seems to be the army that draws the most powergamers to it because it is the easiest army to win with in this edition that we are playing in. If you want to play Grey Knights play them, I really don't care. As long as you are a good guy who plays a good game and good times are had then I am all for it.

I don't care to lose to a nice guy who is playing a really good list but I do care to lose to a powergaming douchebag who is only playing an army for the purpose of tabling everyone he plays in the most cutthroat way possible. I like to have fun when I play and laugh at the crazy stuff that happens.

I think you need to tone it down a bit there.

While there are obviously douchebag competitive WAAC players out there, there are also douchebag fluffbunnies and even douchebag casual gamers out there. It's quite fine to be someone who makes an optimised, hard list and tries as hard as possible to win (ie, someone who wants to win at all costs), or even runs an army simply because it is the best. This doesn't make them a douchebag, it is, afterall, a competitive game. The goal is to complete your mission objective, which means defeating your opponent. If someone enjoys that aspect of the game, it doesn't make them a douchebag.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

KingCracker wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Reivax26 wrote:I would like to say that I am really happy with all the responses that I have gotten on here. It really does make me feel better to know that not everyone in the gaming world is a douche lol.

Using good units =/= being a douche.

KingCracker wrote:My argument about the GK is the fact that if you look at the tourny scene, ANY tourny scene, the GK just flood it, hands down. The reason? Mainly because they are OP and people like to WAAC, so bringing the GK is a better chance at that goal. And sure, the GK arnt AS bad as the Demons were for Fantasy, I mean they literally BROKE the damn game. But GK arnt that far behind in that regard. I mean you want to talk about balance, well explain to me how they are SO much better then a vanilla marine and at such a low cost, not to mention they get upgrades that are just incredibly WTF.

Citation needed. There are plenty of people out there that play Grey Knights that have always wanted a Grey Knight army but didn't want to build an almost all-metal army. Now they have plastics and people flock to them. We really don't know why people play Grey Knights, so let's not claim that most people only play them because they're "OP".

Yea, its definitely the plastic that made the GK such a popular army to play......has dick to do with the near broken rules they have

Lots of people jumped on to Grey Knights at release, before they were established as a powerful army, but I'm sure that's because most Grey Knight players are WAAC doucebags, right?

Lots of people jumped on GK because it was the flavor of the month. But then MORE people jumped on and flooded the game with GK because they are pretty fething broken. Theres a difference.

Reivax26 wrote: The part that players can control is the part where we choose what to play.

This is my point exactly. It really doesn't matter how broken one army is vs another. If you don't like it, you always had/ have the option of playing them too; it's not as though one person is allowed GK while another isn't. If you don't like it, either buy the army yourself or man up and deal with it.

Besides, GK get 1 dex every 10 years. Let us have our moment, it'll be swatted away by the next marine 'dex anyway.

And then there a players like me who have had GKs for years, our entire collection is metal(even Crowe is metal!), and we really couldn't care less about your whining. We didn't whine when our army sucked tyranid wang

Grey Templar wrote:And then there a players like me who have had GKs for years, our entire collection is metal(even Crowe is metal!), and we really couldn't care less about your whining. We didn't whine when our army sucked tyranid wang

Those are the exceptions really, those are just those that stuck by their army through and through. Nothing wrong with that, admirable really.

Reivax26 wrote:This has been bothering me for some time now but I have let it build up until I just can't take it anymore. I want to see some originality in armies, especially those in tournaments.

Has anyone here had success with a Space Wolf army that doesn't use Long Fangs?
Has anyone had success with a Grey Knight army that isn't Draigowing/Purifiers/Henchman Spam?
Has anyone had success with a Blood Angel list that isn't doing Razorspam/AV13 Spam?
Has anyone had success with a Chaos Marine list that isn't running Dual Lash Princes/Plaguespam/Oblit Spam?
Has anyone had success with an Imperial Guard army that isn't a Leafblower?
Has anyone had success with a Dark Eldar army that isn't Venomspam?
Has anyone had success with a Necron army that isn't the Scarab Farm list?

I get so freakin tired of seeing the same old lists over and over and over. Can't anyone have an original thought in their heads anymore or has 40k turned into a game where it is required of you to look around the net to find the netlist for your particular army that is the best one for it supposedly.

Sorry but I am just in a really bad mood right now and someone on one of the other sites has filled my Rage meter to the top

I used to run an entirely Khorne demons list, when I won, I stomped face, or got my gak pushed in. I also used to run a bunch of ogryn, and artillery, and conscripts with my guard. I also played Eldar, well into 5th ed, and didn't spam bikes or anything like that. You must be playing too many tournies or something, I play with my friends, and noone is super cheesey. Get some friends that play 40K and make it a weekly thing is my suggestion, you are right though, if all I ever saw was Driago wing, scarab spam, or crap like that, I would be discouraged too.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:And then there a players like me who have had GKs for years, our entire collection is metal(even Crowe is metal!), and we really couldn't care less about your whining. We didn't whine when our army sucked tyranid wang

Those are the exceptions really, those are just those that stuck by their army through and through. Nothing wrong with that, admirable really.

Id agree with that as well. Itll be the same feeling when those long time Chaos blokes finally get a good codex

The entire problem of 'standard' lists is down 100% to the boring desire of so many gamers to play only a single TAC list and never ever change it.

When you're only going to build one list, you build the one that is the most effective against the most opponents.

Instead, players should be encouraged to tailor their lists. Agree with your opponent before the game with regards to what codex you will be playing, and once you know what army you'll be facing, build a list to fight it.

Even tournaments should include sideboards or alternate lists.

Or play scenarios with unorthodox FOC rules. Homebrew, if you must.

Reivax26 wrote:Has anyone had success with a Chaos Marine list that isn't running Dual Lash Princes/Plaguespam/Oblit Spam?

Yes. I run none of those things

Kaldor wrote:The entire problem of 'standard' lists is down 100% to the boring desire of so many gamers to play only a single TAC list and never ever change it.

When you're only going to build one list, you build the one that is the most effective against the most opponents.

Instead, players should be encouraged to tailor their lists. Agree with your opponent before the game with regards to what codex you will be playing, and once you know what army you'll be facing, build a list to fight it.

Even tournaments should include sideboards or alternate lists.

I kinda like this idea, sort of like a side deck (if anyone here didnt play magic, yugioh etc a side deck is 15 cards you can swap with the cards in your deck between play) it would be cool to have an extra 500pts army where you can swap out units between rounds

Kaldor wrote:The entire problem of 'standard' lists is down 100% to the boring desire of so many gamers to play only a single TAC list and never ever change it.

When you're only going to build one list, you build the one that is the most effective against the most opponents.

Instead, players should be encouraged to tailor their lists. Agree with your opponent before the game with regards to what codex you will be playing, and once you know what army you'll be facing, build a list to fight it.

Even tournaments should include sideboards or alternate lists.

Because list tailoring is so much better. This isn't warmahordes.

Reivax26 wrote:
Has anyone had success with a Grey Knight army that isn't Draigowing/Purifiers/Henchman Spam?

Yes. I've seen multiple accounts where nothing but psyammo strikes and psyfledreads do well. Granted, that still uses psyfledreads, but it's hard to get away from that without spamming Razorbacks (which also does well).

For a 1000 point list, I have a nasty terminator (not paladin) list I use that seldom fails me.

Has anyone had success with an Imperial Guard army that isn't a Leafblower?

Define "Leafblower". Do you mean the actual Leafblower list, or do you mean "any list with chimeras and at least one hydra in it"?

liquidjoshi wrote:Besides, GK get 1 dex every 10 years. Let us have our moment, it'll be swatted away by the next marine 'dex anyway.

This arguement does not hold water.

BA did not swat away the SW codex. Its doubtful that DA/BT will swat away GK.

Alright, maybe not exactly the next codex. But how often have GK been updated? How many codex have we had? Chaos will probably do it, if DA don't. Codex creep is the reason why GK are percieved as OP, and the reason why they will decline again. But hopefully most GK players will keep playing even when the power level drops. I know I will.

imweasel wrote:

Testify wrote:Net lists are only of use in tournaments. Any list can be countered if your opponent knows you're going to use it.

Right...

Because list tailoring is SO much better than net listing...

If me and you meet up in my basement for a battle every now and then, and I *know* you're always going to bring the same type of army, say, mech eldar (for the sake of argument), I'd be a fool not to build a list around countering mech eldar.
It isn't underhand or cheating (though it could be considered such if the lists are SUPPOSED to be secret).

imweasel wrote:Because list tailoring is so much better.

Uh, yeah. It is.

I really don't understand this view that list tailoring is dirty or underhanded. It should be viewed as the default way to play the game!

Reivax26 wrote:This has been bothering me for some time now but I have let it build up until I just can't take it anymore. I want to see some originality in armies, especially those in tournaments.

Has anyone here had success with a Space Wolf army that doesn't use Long Fangs?

Yes, LF's aren't the only highly abuseable spam unit in that book, only one of several.

Has anyone had success with a Grey Knight army that isn't Draigowing/Purifiers/Henchman Spam?

Again, much like SW's, none of these are necessarily required for an abuseable GK list.

Has anyone had success with a Blood Angel list that isn't doing Razorspam/AV13 Spam?

Yes, there's also FNP bubbles!

Has anyone had success with an Imperial Guard army that isn't a Leafblower?

Define Leafblower, this is probably the most nebulous term in 40k right now that people slap on any IG list with a chimera.

Has anyone had success with a Dark Eldar army that isn't Venomspam?

How quickly people forget Raiders...

List tailoring is scum (provided we're talking about the variety where you know roughly the composition of your opponent, rather than simply just his codex).

Kaldor wrote:The entire problem of 'standard' lists is down 100% to the boring desire of so many gamers to play only a single TAC list and never ever change it.

When you're only going to build one list, you build the one that is the most effective against the most opponents.

Instead, players should be encouraged to tailor their lists. Agree with your opponent before the game with regards to what codex you will be playing, and once you know what army you'll be facing, build a list to fight it.

Even tournaments should include sideboards or alternate lists.

Net lists are, and I find this ad infinitum more likely, the result of people hashing out ideas or asking for advice in a general setting where the local playstyle and awarenesses aren't known. If the Eldar player is bad at remembering his start-of-turn psychic powers, then taking the Farseers out isn't a priority. If the Space Wolf player absolutely loves his worgs and seriously think two feet (or four claws) on the ground is how a real Space Marine should play, then anti-tank isn't going to be good even if generally speaking taking care of Rhinos/Razors is a problem against Space Marines.

If those "standard" lists were due to people's unwillningness to adapt, then you'd never see them win in Tournaments, because all it takes is a single player willing to adapt for him to constantly win each tournament.

Sideboards are a great concept, but it requires codexes to be somewhat even. When you've got several codexes which are basically mono-builds in terms of potentially successful "standard" lists, a sideboard for a strong or varied codex will further tip the balance out of the weaker codex' favour. For instance, Dark Eldar benefit strongly from the fact that players opt for the more hard-hitting S8+ weapons for anti-tank rather than S6 dice-spam which is more potent against Dark Eldar vehicles.

I entered a tournament last thursday and used nurgle daemons, not very common, especially not a common competitive army