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I play vanilla marines at the tournament level and I try and take all the advantages I can. I have always been of the opinion that any faction can win at a tournament as it boils down to the player skill (and a bit of luck) in the end. Admittedly, there are factions that are easier to "auto-pilot' than others, but no faction is so handicapped that it's useless. Far from it in my experience.

That said, I see no problem with others playing whatever faction and in whatever form is necessary to win... this is the point of a tournament. Following the path of least resistence in this case is warranted... as frustrating as it may be.

I still use monoliths as necrons

Kaldor wrote:

imweasel wrote:Because list tailoring is so much better.

Uh, yeah. It is.

I really don't understand this view that list tailorings dirty or underhanded. It should be viewed as the default way to play the game!

Because you learn nothing. And it only works IF the expected list shows up.

GimlisonofGloin wrote:

Id agree with that as well. Itll be the same feeling when those long time Chaos blokes finally get a good codex

I base my armies on model preference as opposed to "must have" case in point

I've got a Baron Sathonyx/hellion based army for my D.E. with mandrakes, because I like the models. My Wolves long fangs are kitted out with plas/las-cannons because I like making sure stuff stays dead. My mighty wolf guard pack is 7 wolf guard with 6 power swords/ 1 thunder hammer w/storm bolters on bikes, the point cost is totally worth your opponent going " Wait, those guys are what?"

My army lists are made with the intention of what I think would be fun, couldn't care less about the win/loss because at the end of the day, this is the part people forget about, it's a game with little plastic army men.

Reivax26 wrote:How many times do I have to say this: not all Grey Knight players are douchebags.

Like saying not all Nazis were douchebags.

Semi-joke aside, I've seen fun GK players become dicks because of the environment. They'll start GK because it seems cool and get a ton of "OMG THATS SO CHEESY" or the indirect half behind your back "GKs are so broken, X is so cheesy. Can you imagine why Ward would give all Y rule Z for like 4 points?"
After 2-3 months of getting that every time you go to the club, it probably does rub in.

Yes. I run my Dark Eldar without running Venom spam. I run 3 maybe 4 venoms max in 2000 points and i've won the last 3 tournaments i've been in.
I even run 5 man units of Wracks and Wyches without a Haemonculi and i do great. Not only generic internet lists win all the time despite what some may think.

terranarc wrote:

Reivax26 wrote:How many times do I have to say this: not all Grey Knight players are douchebags.

Like saying not all Nazis were douchebags.

Wow... *REALLY?*

Does playing Greenwing Dark Angels count as out of the box? Granted, I've changed to a more netlisty list since then, but still.I miss my plasma devs sometimes.

Yes playing Dark Angels that are not Deathwing/Ravenwing is thinking outside the box. A friend of mine plays them that way but he does include one Deathwing squad as an elite in a Land Raider and does have one Ravenwing Land Speeder. However he does use 2 Whirlwinds as his other Heavies. Dark Eldar player was laughing at them until the Plasma Cannons in his Tac squads ripped the Raiders apart and then he started raining down Whirlwind templates on the stuff inside.

Hilarious to watch

Play at 1500 points. All of those lists fall apart at 1500 points because spamming is exponentially harder.

oni wrote:Play at 1500 points. All of those lists fall apart at 1500 points because spamming is exponentially harder.

This. There was an article some ex playtester for GW did talking about how 40k is balanced. Basically, it's balanced around 1500pts. Yes, they used to do official tournaments at much higher caps, but the game itself is balanced at 1500pts. It very obvious at the list building stage - it lets you bring a decent sized army but with the need to make some 'hard choices' on what you bring. You might not be able to fit that third Trygon or second Crusader. Higher points levels let you bring more fun toys, but it gets spotty because some codices simply scale better as you go higher. Staying at 1500pts keeps it somewhat reasonable and doesn't let you take that 'unbeatable' lists you see floating around.

You could do quite a few of those style lists at 1500. There just wouldn't be as much spamming of the units.

rigeld2 wrote:

terranarc wrote:

Reivax26 wrote:How many times do I have to say this: not all Grey Knight players are douchebags.

Like saying not all Nazis were douchebags.

Wow... *REALLY?*

Yeah, not only a Godwin, now I feel even less reprehensible when I power game my GK. Every time I see a comment like this, it's one less fluffy choice, and another Paladin/Purifier/DCA squad. feth 'em.

daedalus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

terranarc wrote:

Reivax26 wrote:How many times do I have to say this: not all Grey Knight players are douchebags.

Like saying not all Nazis were douchebags.

Wow... *REALLY?*

Yeah, not only a Godwin, now I feel even less reprehensible when I power game my GK. Every time I see a comment like this, it's one less fluffy choice, and another Paladin/Purifier/DCA squad. feth 'em.

Yes because you powergaming is the result of one person commenting on the internet.

But seriously though, nazi's already? Did godwin really need to be brought up against a player type?

-Loki- wrote:

oni wrote:Play at 1500 points. All of those lists fall apart at 1500 points because spamming is exponentially harder.

This. There was an article some ex playtester for GW did talking about how 40k is balanced. Basically, it's balanced around 1500pts. Yes, they used to do official tournaments at much higher caps, but the game itself is balanced at 1500pts. It very obvious at the list building stage - it lets you bring a decent sized army but with the need to make some 'hard choices' on what you bring. You might not be able to fit that third Trygon or second Crusader. Higher points levels let you bring more fun toys, but it gets spotty because some codices simply scale better as you go higher. Staying at 1500pts keeps it somewhat reasonable and doesn't let you take that 'unbeatable' lists you see floating around.

Crowe
3 psyfleman
5 squads of 5 purifiers in rhinos

1500

It can be done, however, being a grey knight player myself, I do not play netlists like this, how could you ever feel like you have won a game if your using tactics and list you got from the internet.

I have a 1500 tournie in August using 6th edition rules, should be interesting.

Nope, I use Long Fangs, Lone Wolves, Thunderwolves, Rune Priests and Grey Hunters. Oh, and Riflemen dreads.

I mean, otherwise I'd be taking Skyclaws, Blood Claws, ... oh, yea. Crap.

People choose a codex for various reasons, be it aesthetics, fluff, or love of the models. When you start plunking down loads of money (CASH HERE!), you might be more inclined to invest in the better units.

It's not my fault that GW made Necron Wraiths so damn points efficient and the models look totally amazing.

As a counterpoint to my Space Wolves and Necrons, I do play Chaos Daemons. Just cracking that book is outside the box (and no, I don't run Fatecrusher... yet...!)

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yes because you powergaming is the result of one person commenting on the internet.

You've obviously missed the 50-something page "omg gk are the UNFARE +1000 durr" thread that existed for about 4 months. Personally, I went from expecting my DH to lose, but playing them anyway because I liked the badass models, to having an army that might be competitive enough for me to pay attention to what I was doing. This happened just in time for the entire Internet to lose their collective minds, however large or small they might be. In this gargantuan thread, I saw all kinds of allegations, some valid, most absurd, being tossed around. It was about 90% hyperbole, but the way this stuff works is without any sort of reality check, it gets so completely sensationalized that you'd never have thought that anyone playing GK anywhere has lost a single game and if they actually DID, then it was due to the masterful playing of the opponent such that they were able to defeat such a codex, and truly a testament to how much GK players are talentless newbies, regardless of how long they've really been playing or what other armies they play.

But seriously though, nazi's already? Did godwin really need to be brought up against a player type?

Such that you have to ask that question sort of confirms what I'm trying to say, no?

Grey Knight players are not Nazi's. How messed up in the head do you have to be to even post that on here.

Anyway....this is not a thread to whine about GK's, thats in a different thread somewhere on here. Someone had mentioned earlier that he was using a Grey Knight list with a bunch of their regular Terminators and that the list was still performing well. He was using the Psyfleman's but to be honest if I could get one or a Chaos equivalent then I would. I do applaud him for being successful with his army though.

So far I have to admit that I am really happy with this thread with the exception of the Nazi comment

i try to mix up my lists as much as possible. yes i play a venom spam for tourneys, but in all honesty, its what works. ive experimented with tons of other builds, and have at least 10 of every other model barring characters ravagers (only 5) and jetfighters (3). in the case of wyches, i own more then 60, and have played everything possible under the DE codex. including almost "1 of everything" - the end result it that my play style prefers the venoms.

as for "net lists" being inside the box and unorginal, there has to be some distinction. a new player who locates a list online, buys the models and takes it to a tourney may fare well, and definitily fall under the category. however there ARE people who experiment with diffirent units, and diffirent styles of play, elmininating fail units and taking more of what works. for me, ive always taken troops as a primary, and go from there. my first "real army" was orks, and through trial and error wound up at a trukk spam list. i continued that idea with dark eldar, and now my necrons.

there is nothing wrong with playing a "spam" or particular build. the problem, and often those who cry "foul" or "unorginal" or "cheese" are those who dont know how to beat those lists. ive played games against people with my venomspam and beaten them, only to hear "CHEESE!!" crys from across the table. after i offer to switch armies list for list and rematch, then beat them a second time, those crys usually stop. learn how to fight against a build with your army, learn how to properly use it, and youll have much less issue with "netlist/spam" armies.

imweasel wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

imweasel wrote:Because list tailoring is so much better.

Uh, yeah. It is.

I really don't understand this view that list tailorings dirty or underhanded. It should be viewed as the default way to play the game!

Because you learn nothing. And it only works IF the expected list shows up.

Learn nothing? I'll need you to elaborate a little more.

im making a tallarn list with rough riders and an outflanking infantry platoon ogryns and hellhounds i want it to be a fast in your face list not sure if this counts

imweasel wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

imweasel wrote:Because list tailoring is so much better.

Uh, yeah. It is.

I really don't understand this view that list tailorings dirty or underhanded. It should be viewed as the default way to play the game!

Because you learn nothing. And it only works IF the expected list shows up.

Nope, I can only see it as a positive. If you list tailor to, say, orks by bringing lots of flamers and they bring a Kan wall, you're going to have to find another way of dealing with it. That makes you a tactically better general, and discourages predictable netlists as they can be easily countered. Assuming both sides know the codex the other is bringing, as opposed to the actual units of course.

Crimson that would definetly count. Kudo's for originality.

Darthspader: I do agree with your posts. There is a big difference between a new player playing one of the lists and an experienced player who through trial and error has built his army the way that suited him best. If that ended up being really close to a "netlist" that is understandable.

A friend of mine once asked me why I hadn't painted any of my 3k Wolf Army. I told him that when I was comfortable with the army and I found a build that worked for me, I would paint them. Sure enough after about 6 tournaments over the span of a year, I came up with a list that just worked for me from one end to the other and painted it.

Nowadays through programs like Vassal and using counts as models that would be much easier than it was back then I guess. I never could get Predators to work in my 3rd ed Wolf army lol

Reivax26 wrote:This has been bothering me for some time now but I have let it build up until I just can't take it anymore. I want to see some originality in armies, especially those in tournaments.

Has anyone here had success with a Space Wolf army that doesn't use Long Fangs?
Has anyone had success with a Grey Knight army that isn't Draigowing/Purifiers/Henchman Spam?
Has anyone had success with a Blood Angel list that isn't doing Razorspam/AV13 Spam?
Has anyone had success with a Chaos Marine list that isn't running Dual Lash Princes/Plaguespam/Oblit Spam?
Has anyone had success with an Imperial Guard army that isn't a Leafblower?
Has anyone had success with a Dark Eldar army that isn't Venomspam?
Has anyone had success with a Necron army that isn't the Scarab Farm list?

I get so freakin tired of seeing the same old lists over and over and over. Can't anyone have an original thought in their heads anymore or has 40k turned into a game where it is required of you to look around the net to find the netlist for your particular army that is the best one for it supposedly.

Sorry but I am just in a really bad mood right now and someone on one of the other sites has filled my Rage meter to the top

My Dark Eldar army is a Coven.
2-3x Haem (venom Blade, Liquifier Gun), with 3 Grots (Aberration w/ Venom Blade, Liquifier Gun) in Raiders (Flickers, Night Shields),
2x 10 Wracks (Acothyst w/ Venom Blade, 2 Liquifier Guns) in Raiders (Flickers, NS)
2-3x 3 Wracks (Acothyst w/ Hex Rifle) in Venoms (extra cannon, Night Shields)
2x Talos (TL-Liquifier Guns, TL-Haywire Blasters)
And a Razorwing (monoscythes, flickers, ns).
And I win the majority of my games with it.

I also want to try a 150 Warrior foot and a 30 Grotesque lists next too.

The Space Wolf list I'm starting on is going to boast as many as 11-12 Drop Pods, 3+? Dreads (I forget if wolves get them as heavies. And I'll be building Bjorn.) It will possibly have Long Fangs, but mostly because it gets me more pods :p and they'll quite probably have meltaguns.

I'm hoping just through sheer amount of melta that it wont just fall over... But who cares, Drop Pods are cool.

There's plenty of alternate lists that work, it's just a running theme in I've seen on a lot of games - That certain people will just copy something that works for someone else, rather than figure out what works on their own.

Ive been seriously considering making an Arhc Arsonist themed army for awhile. 3 units of burnas in wagons, and 3x3 burna buggies. I think it could work TBH, using a KFF and clever maneuvering with the buggies, they will be able to put some hurting on exposed units and have little worry of being blowd up. And burnaboyz are always a fun treat, whether its burninating or mass powerweapons, either way that would so some damage Im thinking.

I still play Dark Angels if that counts.

I have never figure out what a leafblower if for IG, but I like running armor heavy Guard lists at the expense of troops because, well, I like tanks. I played Armored Company back in the day and I loved fielding alot of Leman Russes. It is balanced out in our group though because my love are armor is well known, so everyone is ready for it when we play.

Leafblower is basically maxing out your long range ordinance for a first turn ranged alpha strike. Squadrons of Basilisks/manticores, lots of lascannons and autocannons, Vendettas, etc...

The idea is to take out a large chunk of your opponents army early on in the game.


It was really good till people realized it had a hard counter in other alpha strike lists, outflankers, deep strike armies, and infiltrators.

-Loki- wrote:

oni wrote:Play at 1500 points. All of those lists fall apart at 1500 points because spamming is exponentially harder.

This. There was an article some ex playtester for GW did talking about how 40k is balanced. Basically, it's balanced around 1500pts. Yes, they used to do official tournaments at much higher caps, but the game itself is balanced at 1500pts. It very obvious at the list building stage - it lets you bring a decent sized army but with the need to make some 'hard choices' on what you bring. You might not be able to fit that third Trygon or second Crusader. Higher points levels let you bring more fun toys, but it gets spotty because some codices simply scale better as you go higher. Staying at 1500pts keeps it somewhat reasonable and doesn't let you take that 'unbeatable' lists you see floating around.

40k isn't balanced at any point level really. Try dealing with termie spam at 1500. It's not easy.

This whole thread started by OP seems to be like a bunch of:



I started the hobby in a store that some folks here would label "WAAC," but that label is dumb. We brought hard lists because we wanted a challenge and we knew "fluff" battles or list comp was just not a challenging way to play. Now that I moved to a new area that doesn't have stores with this mentality, it's super odd. And I win a lot more... and that's not necessarily my goal. I want a hard game and I don't like facing crap like Draigowing, Deathwing, Eldar Mech Spam, etc. but I just use my all-comers tournie list and proceed to play my best. I would actually prefer more Draigowings and Deathwings as they are the hardest armies for me to beat! Oh, and I got alpha spanked real hard by Dark Eldar. Was refreshing to meet a good DE player!

Give me a challenge and if that means give me then so be it.