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What i have foudn so far is that, although Scarabs are not as important as before, they can still be potent (they will hit a tank on 3's now).

The bonus of thsi is that you dont have to field big units of them any more. Throw in a squad of 6, if they eat a tank great!, if you opponent gets scared and diverts fire towards killing that 65 point unit, great! - less fire on the warriors moving into rapid fire tank eater range.

Scarabs are now less of a must take but just as scary to anyone fielding armour.

Akroma06 wrote:
First off fleet does not let you reroll run AND charge if so then fine fleet would be good. As it is you get to reroll ONE of those two and you cannot charge after running. Fleet got another major nerf...apparently everyone should move almost the same. The problem is that the army is not just shooty, it is at least half assault too. FNP kind of got a buff in that you get it vs attacks that don't allow armor, but I will miss the 4+ and 4+ FNP on wyches. The only viable way to assault now is to throw a haemy at them and hope you roll high enough on the wyches afterward to be able to make the charge too. That way you get FNP and don't get overwatched to death. Fearless is nice. Manuverability got better for everyone else but not for the army that was at the top of that later (DE) since they pretty much stayed still and everyone else is getting faster. Beasts aren't much better than they were before, but now you have to take a clawed fiend up front to give you some protection.

Right, I know that. That's why it is one or the other, I just assumed you knew that also and including them together. "AND" was used instead of or, because you can reroll run to get upfield, then reroll charge when close enough. The fact that you can charge 12" kind of mitigates the fact that you cannot charge after running. On top of that, fleet really helps.

Also, you completely ignored my points about the shooting aspect of D. Eldar. So your argument is only half viable against mine. D. Eldar got boned on assault, I already agreed to that. However, their initiative, high amount of attacks, their fleet, their open topped transports, their FNP, their Fearless are all great benefits of assault that I believe you are underestimating. You will have to change your list a bit, as 6th ed requires a balanced build. A lot of people are having to change their lists, so you are not alone here.

I will NOT stop talking about maneuverability which is key for positioning. The way wound allocation exists now, positioning is a crucial element of the game, and keeping the important units alive. How can you expect to do this without superior maneuverability? While others got buffs on their speed and maneuverability, D. Eldar had it first and have it all over the place. Every vehicle in your codex is either fast or a flyer! If you don't want to take vehicles, fine. You still have Hellions(yes I'm aware they sucked in 5th, but have you play tested them in 6th), Beastpacks, Scourges and not to mention venoms (and lots of them). You need to look past your old list and adapt to the new rules.

Akroma06 wrote:
Wyches only get their dodge in close combat not the assault phase. So no 4++ from overwatch. DE were in no way meant for 6th except for the fliers. No AP2 in CC except for an overcosted model. Please stop saying things about manuevablity. While everyone else can turbo giving them 18" DE only get 6" more which used to be 12" more and pulled you out of assault range. Where DE transports got hosed is the whole fact that regardless of how far I moved and how much turning I did my venom is as easy to hit as a Land Raider or Monolith that barely moved at all! Had Agonisers been AP 2 then we would have something to talk about. I don't think overwatch is a death scentance as 9 bolters and one flamer would be rough...18 shots, 3 hits 2 wounds, flamer 2 hits 1-2 wounds, thats 3-4 wounds saving another 1-2 with FNP, so while that could kill the haemy the wyches would be relatively safe. Then again why are you charging a full tac squad with wyches?

All in all dark eldar DID get nerfed quite a bit, but it is far from the dark days of 4th. Assault is in big trouble, but scourges got a major buff as did both the voidraven (still not sure on implosion missiles being so expensive) and the razorwing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Switching out to dissies doesn't help, you then give up air power and lose out on a great deal of AT.

Yeah, that semantic about CC rather than assault phase makes a big difference. Oh well, they still got FNP.

Dark Eldar was the first codex written for 6th ed, whether you believe it or not. It is as much a competitive codex as any IMO with the new rules. Generalship (as always, but more than ever) will play a huge role in winning games.

Your venoms are harder to hit than a LR or monolith. It has the Jink special rule giving it a 5+ save moving normally and a 4+ save moving flat out.

Implosion missiles, while expensive, can remove models from play! Remember when draigo was annoying in 5th ed? Yeah, now he is 3x annoying as he can take all the wounds cause he is the closest model. One implosion missile can solve that, and since its a blast, it could possibly take a couple of pallys with him!

D. Eldar don't have much anti air, but thats what Foritfications are for

J Mac wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
First off fleet does not let you reroll run AND charge if so then fine fleet would be good. As it is you get to reroll ONE of those two and you cannot charge after running. Fleet got another major nerf...apparently everyone should move almost the same. The problem is that the army is not just shooty, it is at least half assault too. FNP kind of got a buff in that you get it vs attacks that don't allow armor, but I will miss the 4+ and 4+ FNP on wyches. The only viable way to assault now is to throw a haemy at them and hope you roll high enough on the wyches afterward to be able to make the charge too. That way you get FNP and don't get overwatched to death. Fearless is nice. Manuverability got better for everyone else but not for the army that was at the top of that later (DE) since they pretty much stayed still and everyone else is getting faster. Beasts aren't much better than they were before, but now you have to take a clawed fiend up front to give you some protection.

Right, I know that. That's why it is one or the other, I just assumed you knew that also and including them together. "AND" was used instead of or, because you can reroll run to get upfield, then reroll charge when close enough. The fact that you can charge 12" kind of mitigates the fact that you cannot charge after running. On top of that, fleet really helps.

Also, you completely ignored my points about the shooting aspect of D. Eldar. So your argument is only half viable against mine. D. Eldar got boned on assault, I already agreed to that. However, their initiative, high amount of attacks, their fleet, their open topped transports, their FNP, their Fearless are all great benefits of assault that I believe you are underestimating. You will have to change your list a bit, as 6th ed requires a balanced build. A lot of people are having to change their lists, so you are not alone here.

I will NOT stop talking about maneuverability which is key for positioning. The way wound allocation exists now, positioning is a crucial element of the game, and keeping the important units alive. How can you expect to do this without superior maneuverability? While others got buffs on their speed and maneuverability, D. Eldar had it first and have it all over the place. Every vehicle in your codex is either fast or a flyer! If you don't want to take vehicles, fine. You still have Hellions(yes I'm aware they sucked in 5th, but have you play tested them in 6th), Beastpacks, Scourges and not to mention venoms (and lots of them). You need to look past your old list and adapt to the new rules.

My point is manuevability isn't as big since other armies can redploy almost as quickly. I know that DE shooting got better it is the only thing that makes them decent. It doesn't ignore the fact that over half of the dex got nerfed for being assault oriented. DE don't get a high number of attacks. It's one base for the normal guys and two for the elites the same as marines. Yeah out close combat guys get one for two one handed weapons, but so do BA assault marines. The biggest edge I can get in CC is fortuning my Archon's shadowfield as himself and some incubi are the only assault element I use and that is to hit things like devs that try to hide from my guns. Hellions were bad in 5th I agree and they don't seem much better in 6th being that they are an assault unit. I've only been able to get in a couple of games in so far and one was to test eldar as a potential ally and one to test wyches. The wyches got massacred but the eldar as a support did really well. I plan on trying hellions again. I never said beasts got worse just more expensive. Scourges are a nightmare for the enemy with haywire blasters...I strongly feel that they are the future for 6th as a replacement for blasterborn (and I am more than ok with that). Venom spam got old fast and it was to the point that I wouldn't field it outside of a tournament. I never meant to say that DE were unplayable but they did get substantially nerfed in that half of the book is almost unplayable. Feels kinda like the old book.

J Mac wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
Wyches only get their dodge in close combat not the assault phase. So no 4++ from overwatch. DE were in no way meant for 6th except for the fliers. No AP2 in CC except for an overcosted model. Please stop saying things about manuevablity. While everyone else can turbo giving them 18" DE only get 6" more which used to be 12" more and pulled you out of assault range. Where DE transports got hosed is the whole fact that regardless of how far I moved and how much turning I did my venom is as easy to hit as a Land Raider or Monolith that barely moved at all! Had Agonisers been AP 2 then we would have something to talk about. I don't think overwatch is a death scentance as 9 bolters and one flamer would be rough...18 shots, 3 hits 2 wounds, flamer 2 hits 1-2 wounds, thats 3-4 wounds saving another 1-2 with FNP, so while that could kill the haemy the wyches would be relatively safe. Then again why are you charging a full tac squad with wyches?

All in all dark eldar DID get nerfed quite a bit, but it is far from the dark days of 4th. Assault is in big trouble, but scourges got a major buff as did both the voidraven (still not sure on implosion missiles being so expensive) and the razorwing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Switching out to dissies doesn't help, you then give up air power and lose out on a great deal of AT.

Yeah, that semantic about CC rather than assault phase makes a big difference. Oh well, they still got FNP.

Dark Eldar was the first codex written for 6th ed, whether you believe it or not. It is as much a competitive codex as any IMO with the new rules. Generalship (as always, but more than ever) will play a huge role in winning games.

Your venoms are harder to hit than a LR or monolith. It has the Jink special rule giving it a 5+ save moving normally and a 4+ save moving flat out.

Implosion missiles, while expensive, can remove models from play! Remember when draigo was annoying in 5th ed? Yeah, now he is 3x annoying as he can take all the wounds cause he is the closest model. One implosion missile can solve that, and since its a blast, it could possibly take a couple of pallys with him!

D. Eldar don't have much anti air, but thats what Foritfications are for

I thought that IG was the first for 6th? It doesn't matter that much. I really feel like if wyches get errated to get FNP in both the charge and fight sub-fazes then they will be viable again.

Unfortunately a monolith can also jink (don't ask how) so that isn't that much better. My point was it is just as easy to hit it (a small very fast skimmer) as a monolith or LR (big slow and bulky) in CC not shooting. WS 1 for a moving vehicle as the line is just a bad move on GWs part and probably my biggest gripe...right next to the blast inside is always S4 and the whole no dodge on overwatch, or assaulting from reserve (Deep strike ok, but walking on no).

Implosion missiles are insanely expensive and a full rack doubles the cost of the vehicle and they are only the small blast. I don't see draigo lists becoming as annoying with the new woulnd allocation. You allocate wounds the same as shooting not hits so the woulnd test would be off the majority (1 for termis 2 for pallys) then the fails start with Draigo up front. Or I could just make him take the void lance wounds first. Although allowing invuls is a nussance. Venoms firing on termis was never a solid plan as it takes 2 venoms both with 2 SC to kill on terminator.

As for fortifications...I have issues taking a fortification as a part of my Dark Eldar raiding army. That just makes no sense.

Tau actually got a couple wonderful boosts:

---PE allowing rerolls of 1 to hit means an Ethereal to prance out and get killed is potentially a decent tradeoff, and giving him the BS4 Honor guard makes an even more appealing target that you can stick him in the front of to get blown away faster.

---Rapid fire got amazingly better, both for the move and fire once as well as the half-range instead of 12" for double-taps

---Stealthsuits. Holy crap stealthsuits. They get +3 to any save, and are now nigh untouchable if they're in cover. Finally, my dream of 6 of them and 12 gun drones in a blob becomes something to be feared and not ridiculed. they finally became (imo) a very, very viable alternative to crisis suits and a worthy user of the elite slot.

---Moving and shooting heavy at BS1 gave a lot of maneuverability to broadsides, which was nice because the points sink of advanced stabilizers really added up once you went beyond a small handful of suits.

---Drones taking the type of their unit they're attached to means that they can intercept for challenges. Very nice in case your crisis suits accidentally get charged by a lucky roll

DE assault isn't entirely dead as beastmasters remain viable. Wound Shenanigans are slightly nerfed, but you can still put the optimal wound taking models out in front. The main danger is concentrated fire from both high volume and high strength shooting in the same turn. They can still spam high initiative ap 2 rending attacks, don't worry about overwatch and have much better non-charge movement.

JohnnoM wrote:Because my current army, (World Eaters Khorne army lead by Kharn) has been bashed to death with the nerf bat, I'm looking for a new army to start.
However, this isnt just a thread for me to find a new army, its also a thread to discuss which armies have been nerfed and which have been buffed, and why.



(Yes, I know theres a thread for just about every army, but its not very easy to go looking through all of them for answers)

I hear you friend. I also played World Eaters prior to this and now that army imho is virtually unplayable so I'm making the switch to Nurgle. New Codex or not I've always wanted a Death Guard army along with World Eaters, but until I can play them again t I'll stick with my Necrons and soon to be Death Guard.

Tyno2025 wrote:

JohnnoM wrote:Because my current army, (World Eaters Khorne army lead by Kharn) has been bashed to death with the nerf bat, I'm looking for a new army to start.
However, this isnt just a thread for me to find a new army, its also a thread to discuss which armies have been nerfed and which have been buffed, and why.



(Yes, I know theres a thread for just about every army, but its not very easy to go looking through all of them for answers)

I hear you friend. I also played World Eaters prior to this and now that army imho is virtually unplayable so I'm making the switch to Nurgle. New Codex or not I've always wanted a Death Guard army along with World Eaters, but until I can play them again t I'll stick with my Necrons and soon to be Death Guard.

CSM is next on new codex IIRC so you wont wait for long.

scimitar wrote:DE assault isn't entirely dead as beastmasters remain viable. Wound Shenanigans are slightly nerfed, but you can still put the optimal wound taking models out in front. The main danger is concentrated fire from both high volume and high strength shooting in the same turn. They can still spam high initiative ap 2 rending attacks, don't worry about overwatch and have much better non-charge movement.

The optimal wound taking models for beastmasters are khymerae for the STR6+ wounds and razorwing flock for small arms. You can't do that anymore in 6th. In fact, your opponent gets to choose which wounds to handle first. So if you put your flock up front, he'll remove them with high strength fire. If you put the khymerae up front, he'll blast them with small arms. Mind you, they are not bad at all, not in the way Wyches, Hellions, Incubi, Mandrakes, Archons, the Court, Succubi and almost all Dark Eldar ICs are.

Thanks for you comments J Mac, I tend to exaggerate with the doom and gloom. However, I truly think Dark Eldar assault is finished. This doesn't mean the army is dead, because you are right that on the shooty front they got buffed. Maneuverability is up in the air though (quite literally). This used to be the Dark Eldar mantra. We would be able to strike anywhere on the table and be gone the next. Now every army can do that to some extent. In fact, Necrons are now the fastest army on the board, easily outmaneuvering any other army out there. And considering where they came from when their first codex was launched, this is quite frustrating for me as a Dark Eldar player. The changes of the Necron army through the last few years would be mirrored by giving the Dark Eldar 3+ saves and We'll Be Back right now.

All in all, I'm surprised that a gaming company can allow a new set of rules, which are supposed to improve the game in general, to outright destroy certain armies in one way or another. Yet this is what GW, or specifically Matt Ward, has done.

Not mentioned yet and I am suprised! Dark Angels, specifically Deathwing, IMO got much better!
PROS - FNP for command squad is better, stuff that normally killed terminators usually denied FNP, not the case any longer
- Deepstrike is more forgiving
- reserves come in sooner
- terminator armor is better vs power weapons (obviously)
- cyclone missile launchers are better (more reliable at taking off HPs)
- RCD lets you have a scarier threat bubble with all TH/SS guys

CONS - Still an old codex?
- no real damage done to terminator eq models in this edition
- ? can't go to ground because they are fearless?

I am not finding too many weaknesses in the edition change.
Maybe not a teir 1 army or anything, but definiately got much better. I plan on rolling out the ol' Terminators this weekend I believe and testing out some theroies here. Stay tuned!

Mandor wrote:

scimitar wrote:DE assault isn't entirely dead as beastmasters remain viable. Wound Shenanigans are slightly nerfed, but you can still put the optimal wound taking models out in front. The main danger is concentrated fire from both high volume and high strength shooting in the same turn. They can still spam high initiative ap 2 rending attacks, don't worry about overwatch and have much better non-charge movement.

The optimal wound taking models for beastmasters are khymerae for the STR6+ wounds and razorwing flock for small arms. You can't do that anymore in 6th. In fact, your opponent gets to choose which wounds to handle first. So if you put your flock up front, he'll remove them with high strength fire. If you put the khymerae up front, he'll blast them with small arms. Mind you, they are not bad at all, not in the way Wyches, Hellions, Incubi, Mandrakes, Archons, the Court, Succubi and almost all Dark Eldar ICs are.

Well, if you take Eldar as allies, then you could throw a Serpent in front of the Beastmaster unit giving them cover.

Dracos wrote:

Leth wrote:You are still assaulting at the same time as you could before. You just have to spend a turn in the open now

5th:
turn 1: Move 12
Turn2: Move 12
Turn three disembark 8 assault 6
Total: 38

6th
Turn 1: Move 12, flat out 6
Turn 2: Move 6, Disembark 6
Turn 3: Move 6, assault 7ish
Total: 43ish

So you are actually moving just as fast. Now some vehicles will die(same as fifth) but you are still getting to assault at the same turn but the actual distance you cover is greater.

Except in 5th you had the option to assault turn 2 if there were available targets. You glossed that fact over pretty nicely.

Okay so turn 1
Move 12
Turn two
Disembark 9
Assault 6

Total 27

Turn 1
Move 6 disembark 6

Turn 2
Move 6 assault 7

25 O NO

Leth wrote:

Dracos wrote:

Leth wrote:You are still assaulting at the same time as you could before. You just have to spend a turn in the open now

5th:
turn 1: Move 12
Turn2: Move 12
Turn three disembark 8 assault 6
Total: 38

6th
Turn 1: Move 12, flat out 6
Turn 2: Move 6, Disembark 6
Turn 3: Move 6, assault 7ish
Total: 43ish

So you are actually moving just as fast. Now some vehicles will die(same as fifth) but you are still getting to assault at the same turn but the actual distance you cover is greater.

Except in 5th you had the option to assault turn 2 if there were available targets. You glossed that fact over pretty nicely.

Okay so turn 1
Move 12
Turn two
Disembark 9
Assault 6

Total 27

Turn 1
Move 6 disembark 6

Turn 2
Move 6 assault 7

25 O NO

After disembarking, the unit might get decimated via shooting. The casualties must be taken from the front and so the overall range, 25 inches, might actually be smaller. Moreover, the enemy will see it coming and withdraw his units within assault range.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

farrowking37 wrote:In my opinion some of the more ranged armies have been buffed, like the SM and Tau. Melee centric armies have been Nerfed a bit by the new power weapon rules, namely the Orks and Necrons, and even the gray knights to some extent.

Necrons are a melee-centric army?

Also, how did Power Weapon changes nerf Orks? They all have Power Klaws anyway.

As for the Necrons, that's what happens when i don't bother checking what the post says. sorry bout that. Meant Tyranids.
The way the new power weapons work however, makes the power claw less powerful, it will probably be a maul, so it will only penetrate ap4 armor, leaving tougher units rolling their 3+ or 2+ armor saves.

farrowking37 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

farrowking37 wrote:In my opinion some of the more ranged armies have been buffed, like the SM and Tau. Melee centric armies have been Nerfed a bit by the new power weapon rules, namely the Orks and Necrons, and even the gray knights to some extent.

Necrons are a melee-centric army?

Also, how did Power Weapon changes nerf Orks? They all have Power Klaws anyway.

As for the Necrons, that's what happens when i don't bother checking what the post says. sorry bout that. Meant Tyranids.
The way the new power weapons work however, makes the power claw less powerful, it will probably be a maul, so it will only penetrate ap4 armor, leaving tougher units rolling their 3+ or 2+ armor saves.

The Power Klaw listed in the rulebook (both 5th and 6th) as the equivalent of a Power Fist? That Klaw?

Brymm wrote:Not mentioned yet and I am suprised! Dark Angels, specifically Deathwing, IMO got much better!
PROS - FNP for command squad is better, stuff that normally killed terminators usually denied FNP, not the case any longer
- Deepstrike is more forgiving
- reserves come in sooner
- terminator armor is better vs power weapons (obviously)
- cyclone missile launchers are better (more reliable at taking off HPs)
- RCD lets you have a scarier threat bubble with all TH/SS guys

CONS - Still an old codex?
- no real damage done to terminator eq models in this edition
- ? can't go to ground because they are fearless?

I am not finding too many weaknesses in the edition change.
Maybe not a teir 1 army or anything, but definiately got much better. I plan on rolling out the ol' Terminators this weekend I believe and testing out some theroies here. Stay tuned!

You missed the fearless buff, where a team of 5 terminators no longer has to take saves in close combat and die on the way down. I have almost lost more terminators and veterans to fearless saves than to gunfire...

farrowking37 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

farrowking37 wrote:In my opinion some of the more ranged armies have been buffed, like the SM and Tau. Melee centric armies have been Nerfed a bit by the new power weapon rules, namely the Orks and Necrons, and even the gray knights to some extent.

Necrons are a melee-centric army?

Also, how did Power Weapon changes nerf Orks? They all have Power Klaws anyway.

As for the Necrons, that's what happens when i don't bother checking what the post says. sorry bout that. Meant Tyranids.
The way the new power weapons work however, makes the power claw less powerful, it will probably be a maul, so it will only penetrate ap4 armor, leaving tougher units rolling their 3+ or 2+ armor saves.

powerklaw has a specific entry and even if it didn't it is per the ork codex defined as a power fist. so 2x str initiative 1 and ap2

G00fySmiley wrote:

farrowking37 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

farrowking37 wrote:In my opinion some of the more ranged armies have been buffed, like the SM and Tau. Melee centric armies have been Nerfed a bit by the new power weapon rules, namely the Orks and Necrons, and even the gray knights to some extent.

Necrons are a melee-centric army?

Also, how did Power Weapon changes nerf Orks? They all have Power Klaws anyway.

As for the Necrons, that's what happens when i don't bother checking what the post says. sorry bout that. Meant Tyranids.
The way the new power weapons work however, makes the power claw less powerful, it will probably be a maul, so it will only penetrate ap4 armor, leaving tougher units rolling their 3+ or 2+ armor saves.

powerklaw has a specific entry and even if it didn't it is per the ork codex defined as a power fist. so 2x str initiative 1 and ap2

Ah, thanks for letting me know, I figured that they would count as a generic weapon, not owning a codex or any common sense at all.

The more I think about it/play I think c:sm got buffed pretty hard. Assault terminators when from good to one of the best cc units in the game. Tactical terminators went from awkward to a really good counterpunch line holding unit. Sterngaurd are much better with moving and being able to shoot 24"/ overwatch.

Pony_law wrote:The more I think about it/play I think c:sm got buffed pretty hard. Assault terminators when from good to one of the best cc units in the game. Tactical terminators went from awkward to a really good counterpunch line holding unit. Sterngaurd are much better with moving and being able to shoot 24"/ overwatch.

+1 to this. In the games I have played, I'm seeing a surprising increase of the effectiveness of C:SM.

Not mentioned yet and I am suprised! Dark Angels, specifically Deathwing, IMO got much better!
PROS - FNP for command squad is better, stuff that normally killed terminators usually denied FNP, not the case any longer
- Deepstrike is more forgiving
- reserves come in sooner
- terminator armor is better vs power weapons (obviously)
- cyclone missile launchers are better (more reliable at taking off HPs)
- RCD lets you have a scarier threat bubble with all TH/SS guys

CONS - Still an old codex?
- no real damage done to terminator eq models in this edition
- ? can't go to ground because they are fearless?

I am not finding too many weaknesses in the edition change. Maybe not a teir 1 army or anything, but definiately got much better. I plan on rolling out the ol' Terminators this weekend I believe and testing out some theroies here. Stay tuned!

Just to drive the point home. Deathwing are rocking in this edition. I would dare say they have jumped up to being top tier. I tabled my friends space wolf list, anhillated my friends grey knight list. That game was just pathetic. We were carbon copy lists, as he was running all termis as well but the lack of ap2 weaponry hosed him hard in a TDA match-up. The only game I have played so far with any challenge was against a salamander list with thunder hammer storm shield termis. But they weren't scoring troop choices so again victory for the unforgiven.