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TedNugent wrote:Let me get this straight: you can now take FNP saves against Power Swords and Plasma Guns,

You get a free I10 autohit at strength 4 with -all- of your scoring jump pack infantry,

Yes, your FNP was downgraded from 4+ to 5+, yes, you now have no initiative bonus on Furious Charge,

But has anyone actually run the math on this and come up with the conclusion that this is a net nerf?

6 Assault Marines with Hammer of Wrath produce 6 hits on the charge generating 3 wounds, 1 of which kills an MEQ. For sake of comparison, an additional Assault Marine on the charge would hit on 4's, wound on 3's, with 3 attacks. .5*.66*.33*3 = .33, e.g. with Hammer of Wrath with 6 Assault Marines you can equal the damage output of another 3 Assault Marines on the charge.

You get hammer IF you only move 6 in your movement phase and make the charge distance 2d6 through overwatch. That's not exactly pure upside. You can do it the old fashioned way, moving 12 in your movement phase and going 2d6 without reroll, but you'll be hitting on the same initiative or under as everyone else, except for guard, necrons and probably orcs. Hardly a buff.

Ailaros wrote:Guard got unequivocally worse. Yes, russes got better, but chimeras are now twice as easy to kill with autocannons and power blobs are dead.

The only reason why I'm not up in arms is that I'm actually having a hard time seeing if anybody got BETTER. If everybody got worse, then my choice army getting worse isn't that much of a deal.

I am getting the feeling that everyone will end up having to use Allies to be remotely competitive, because everyone has been nerfed (to varying degrees). I guess it's GW's way of getting people to buy more models as much as anything else (not saying this is a bad thing).

I don't have many qualms with this because I can simply slot in some Dark Angels Deathwing into my Guard quite nicely (amongst other ideas). However, I just know you'll get WAAC type players abusing (or rather 'utilising') this and we'll see stupid combinations of Allies and units that are just there to win and have no interest in fluff. Some people are in it to win it and don't care about fluff or anything which is fine, each their own, but that isn't really why I play 40k (I like winning, but not WAAC) and so for me this is negative...But, it also opens the game up as well as the modelling potential (Tau Human Auxillaries? Blood Axe Ork mercenaries? Traitor Guard with Daemons or CSM...ad infinitum), which I see as a positive.

FifteenHours wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Guard got unequivocally worse. Yes, russes got better, but chimeras are now twice as easy to kill with autocannons and power blobs are dead.

The only reason why I'm not up in arms is that I'm actually having a hard time seeing if anybody got BETTER. If everybody got worse, then my choice army getting worse isn't that much of a deal.

I am getting the feeling that everyone will end up having to use Allies to be remotely competitive, because everyone has been nerfed (to varying degrees). I guess it's GW's way of getting people to buy more models as much as anything else (not saying this is a bad thing).

I don't have many qualms with this because I can simply slot in some Dark Angels Deathwing into my Guard quite nicely (amongst other ideas). However, I just know you'll get WAAC type players abusing (or rather 'utilising') this and we'll see stupid combinations of Allies and units that are just there to win and have no interest in fluff. Some people are in it to win it and don't care about fluff or anything which is fine, each their own, but that isn't really why I play 40k (I like winning, but not WAAC) and so for me this is negative...But, it also opens the game up as well as the modelling potential (Tau Human Auxillaries? Blood Axe Ork mercenaries? Traitor Guard with Daemons or CSM...ad infinitum), which I see as a positive.

I don't think my Necrons need any allies.

That seems true.

Allies aren't really that OP when you think of it; your spending aprox. 200 pts on allies just in a troop/HQ that normally doesn't really 'fit' how your army works. Not to mention why many people woul want allies (psychic pwrs) are random or don't work on allies....

No, if anything can be seen as a WAAC play it would be flierspam. Beauty is, you lose if at end of game turn you have no units.... So its high risk, high reward.

That said, allies does benefit older armies that need the boost, bringing them back into the 'playable' realm

Zid wrote:Allies aren't really that OP when you think of it; your spending aprox. 200 pts on allies just in a troop/HQ that normally doesn't really 'fit' how your army works. Not to mention why many people woul want allies (psychic pwrs) are random or don't work on allies....

No, if anything can be seen as a WAAC play it would be flierspam. Beauty is, you lose if at end of game turn you have no units.... So its high risk, high reward.

That said, allies does benefit older armies that need the boost, bringing them back into the 'playable' realm

Yep. When I heard about allies I thought it would break the game, but it looks like it came out remarkably balanced. As someone else mentioned, it's also a great opportunity to introduce "slimmer" armies that basically only function as allies, which would be amazing.

Necrons are strong right now because they are the only codex designed for 6th edition. It's not surprising that their units work better in the game right now than any other army. When new codexs come out I expect normal GW codex creep to apply, the only question is when do you get yours. I play c:sm so i know i won't have to wait to long, some might take a while as always (or possibly never happening and just geting some ok FAQ's like giving skyfire to some units as a default or buyable upgrade).

Titan Atlas wrote:

TedNugent wrote:Let me get this straight: you can now take FNP saves against Power Swords and Plasma Guns,

You get a free I10 autohit at strength 4 with -all- of your scoring jump pack infantry,

Yes, your FNP was downgraded from 4+ to 5+, yes, you now have no initiative bonus on Furious Charge,

But has anyone actually run the math on this and come up with the conclusion that this is a net nerf?

6 Assault Marines with Hammer of Wrath produce 6 hits on the charge generating 3 wounds, 1 of which kills an MEQ. For sake of comparison, an additional Assault Marine on the charge would hit on 4's, wound on 3's, with 3 attacks. .5*.66*.33*3 = .33, e.g. with Hammer of Wrath with 6 Assault Marines you can equal the damage output of another 3 Assault Marines on the charge.

Yeah, I'm thoroughly not convinced that it's a nerf in general, and the people who claim it to be don't really make a detailed case.

It had to be me to do it (lol). Losing the +1I from Furious Charge hurts the Blood Angels the most. Before they'd be getting 2-3 attacks each at S5 rather than 1 S4 attack at I10. They're getting more attacks now, sure, but they're weaker and they're going to suffer more casualties as a trade-off. Here's the math (assuming no one dies from shooting or anything like that):

For the mathhammer, I'll do a fairly typical build: 10 Assault Marines with a Powerfist Sergeant, 2 Meltaguns and a Sanguinary Priest vs 9 Grey Hunters and a Powerfist Wolf Guard (because it would be no fun with Tactical Marines haha). It's worth keeping in mind that the Blood Angels have a bit of an advantage from the Priests' buffs, so the number of wounds they're throwing out there are worth keeping in perspective.

5th Ed
Assault Marines get the charge, striking at S5 I5. 25 attacks from the mooks, 3 powerfist attacks and 4 attacks from the Priest. 12.5 hits, 8.25 wounds, 5.45 unsaved wounds (plus 1 from the Sanguinary Priest). The Sergeant will also get 2 more kills on his turn.
Knocked down to 3 Grey Hunters and the Wolf Guard, the Space Wolves (who have probably gotten counter-attack) will only get 1.49 wounds (plus 2 from the Wolf Guard). Clearly, the Blood Angels kicked their ass this turn with 8 kills to 3-4 casualties, largely because they got to get the alpha strike, and because FNP kept their casualties to a minimum.

6th Ed
(Since I don't have the 6th ed rulebook yet, I'm not gonna number crunch the casualties that the Blood Angels would suffer from Overwatch, but they would probably lose 1-2 Marines [depending on whether the meltagun + combi-melta hits], which hurts their assault chances even more)
Assault Marines get the charge, getting a Hammer of Wrath attack at S4 I10. 5 wounds, 3 unsaved wounds. Both sides then strike simultaneously. The Assault Marines still get 5.45 unsaved wounds (plus 1 from the Sanguinary Priest), but now they have to contend with 4.58 unsaved wounds from the Grey Hunters. The Sergeant/Wolf Guard still get 2 wounds as well (assuming that either of them survived or that they didn't challenge each other of course). That totals out to 9-11 kills to 4-7 casualties (again, not including those they would likely have lost from overwatch, although I didn't include the Grey Hunters who would have been killed by the Assault Marines' shooting either).

So, while they might get slightly more kills, their staying power has dropped pretty significantly and their effectiveness in subsequent assaults has dropped sharply. However, this is of course in comparison to MEQ. Against models with I5 or higher, I would imagine the numbers show that Assault Marines have improved. However, this is evidence of my opinion of how Blood Angels haven't gotten nearly as good as people think. Sure, Death Company and Sanguinary Guard went from being 2 absolutely useless units to being ridiculous and decent, respectively. But they lost a lot of their resiliency and are going to take a lot more damage that they're going to have trouble compensating for.

You have to also factor in the BA shooting, as that can't be taken lightly.

Like, I see you wrote that you didn't include that, but that's more influential than possible overwatch wounds.

Titan Atlas wrote:You have to also factor in the BA shooting, as that can't be taken lightly.

Yeah, I said in the post that I didn't factor in either, but ultimately we're going for best-case scenario here, only really looking at how it affects the already one-sided assault.

I forgot to include the tail end of my reply, so be sure to read that part.

I don't think you realize though that you'll also likely be seeing a lot more support fire backing up my assaults, possibly some vindicators, possibly something else, and now that vindis full blast templates are full strength, I can more confidently dash in to attack the remains.

Also, a good assaulting player, if given the opportunity, will place the models strategically, to take out the most dangerous threats, and this will be much more deadly as I can take out any fist-bearing sgt's without having to resort to a challenge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
haha, I edited my post 20 seconds before you made the reply, nice. Not much going on for either of us tonight, huh?

Yeah, but you know me, I'm gonna try to take out that Vindicator immediately and/or get out of Line of Sight.

The blast template strength thing only really changed for vehicles by the way.

I'm aware, but still, I think you'll find it worrisome.

Stoffer wrote:

4. I picked up a few boxes of Grey Knights on Monday! Was either that or Orks and I'm not sure I can paint 200 models

look up washing.. my orks take about 2 min per boy. i have 180 boys so about 6 hours of painting

The new rules hurts a lot of assault units, assault marines gotten off rather lightly compare to some of them.
For example, DE wychs dies to over watch fire easier than most and lose substantially amount of threat range due to fleet change.

Arguably the SM chapters benefit from ally rules the most, as they can now add previously chapter unique units into their own list. Units like scoring DW Termies, Scoring Bikes, Scoring Assault Marines, Death company, Grey Hunters, Long Fang, Storm Talon and Storm Raven.

Stoffer wrote:

Zid wrote:Allies aren't really that OP when you think of it; your spending aprox. 200 pts on allies just in a troop/HQ that normally doesn't really 'fit' how your army works. Not to mention why many people woul want allies (psychic pwrs) are random or don't work on allies....

No, if anything can be seen as a WAAC play it would be flierspam. Beauty is, you lose if at end of game turn you have no units.... So its high risk, high reward.

That said, allies does benefit older armies that need the boost, bringing them back into the 'playable' realm

Yep. When I heard about allies I thought it would break the game, but it looks like it came out remarkably balanced. As someone else mentioned, it's also a great opportunity to introduce "slimmer" armies that basically only function as allies, which would be amazing.

Yepper. Though I will admit, I'm running an immotekh shooty list with Mephiston punching things as my 6th test for next weekends "welcome to 6th" tourney... I'll have reps up, should be fun running 2 stupid specials that take up 1/4th of my points lol

The loss of the bonus to iniative when furious charging is the one nerf in this new edition that actually hurts marines more than any other race.

DE - with it would strike at I6. There are very few things that are actually I6 that the DE would hate to run into that still striking at I5 will actually matter.

Orks - The boost to I3 in the old dex only ever put them on par with guard. Everything else didn't matter. The still struck after all space marines even if they charged. Now the guard get to strike first, but truthfully the overwatch will probably do more damage than guard CC. That and the big killers of orks Nobs with powerclaws always struck at I1 anyway. Add to it that orks didn't have any squad borne power weapons / special CCW striking simultaneous with Necrons isn't going to matter. Its still all on the Nob.

Nids - Sorry, don't know squat about nids.

Marines - Going at I5 is huge because of the vast amount of other I4 armies out there. Other marines. The I5 always made a difference. But now, they loose that huge advantage. They still go before orks, guard, etc. so no change there, but no longer striking before other marines is just a massive nerf.

Jayden63 wrote:Nids - Sorry, don't know squat about nids.

Termagaunts are I4 base, so it hurts some units similarly to Marines. A squad of Termagaunts is pretty weak, but with I5 they'd be able to inflict a reasonable amount of casualties before being destroyed. Being S4 for a turn wasn't the good part about Adrenal Glands, it was the +1I. Most other units in the Codex won't really notice though, since they didn't get much of a benefit from the I5 (Hormagaunts, Genestealers, Tyrants, etc) or because the upgrade was too damned expensive (Carnifexes).

Jayden63 wrote:The loss of the bonus to iniative when furious charging is the one nerf in this new edition that actually hurts marines more than any other race.

DE - with it would strike at I6. There are very few things that are actually I6 that the DE would hate to run into that still striking at I5 will actually matter.

True, the initiative nerf of FC hardly affects Dark Eldar assault. Then again, with Overwatch versus T3Sv5+, nerfed assault range, no assault from reserve and WWP, no AP2 assault weapons (except for a single one on a 57pts T3Sv3+ model), Dark Eldar have no reason to assault any more at all. Arguably, you could abuse the Fortune/Shadowfield combo for one decent assault unit in your army and model your Archon with a Power Axe. This setup will set you down about 200pts at the very least and doesn't solve the transport problem.

Assault no longer is a competitive option for Dark Eldar. Which is a shame, because half the codex is about assault.

In my opinion some of the more ranged armies have been buffed, like the SM and Tau. Melee centric armies have been Nerfed a bit by the new power weapon rules, namely the Orks and Tyranids, and even the gray knights to some extent.

DarknessEternal wrote:

J Mac wrote:
D. Eldar got great IMO!

Indeed. No longer being irrevocably married to paper transports to kill stuff will be a god send.

so if they arent married to them then they are out in the open taking 24" bolter fire. They died pretty fast to 12" bolter fire so this is supposed to be better? Other than a init1 power axe they have no AP2 weapons and very few DE can stand up to init 1 with their crappy toughness and saves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

J Mac wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Well, Eldar and DE have been nerfed. I'd stay away from them. now. Eldar will get a codex next year.

D. Eldar got great IMO! Night Fighting units will kick ass! Plus, in my eyes, 6th is all about manuverability and positioning, something that D. Eldar are kings of.

DE bikes got a buff,
while
wyches, trueborn, ravagers, archons, incubi got shafted


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandor wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

DE - with it would strike at I6. There are very few things that are actually I6 that the DE would hate to run into that still striking at I5 will actually matter.

True, the initiative nerf of FnP hardly affects Dark Eldar assault. Then again, with Overwatch versus T3Sv5+, nerfed assault range, no assault from reserve and WWP, no AP2 assault weapons (except for a single one on a 57pts T3Sv3+ model), Dark Eldar have no reason to assault any more at all. Arguably, you could abuse the Fortune/Shadowfield combo for one decent assault unit in your army and model your Archon with a Power Axe. This setup will set you down about 200pts at the very least and doesn't solve the transport problem.

Assault no longer is a competitive option for Dark Eldar. Which is a shame, because half the codex is about assault.

over half the codex is assault and now none of it is good in assault.

farrowking37 wrote:In my opinion some of the more ranged armies have been buffed, like the SM and Tau. Melee centric armies have been Nerfed a bit by the new power weapon rules, namely the Orks and Necrons, and even the gray knights to some extent.

Necrons are a melee-centric army?

Also, how did Power Weapon changes nerf Orks? They all have Power Klaws anyway.

Mandor wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

J Mac wrote:
D. Eldar got great IMO!

Indeed. No longer being irrevocably married to paper transports to kill stuff will be a god send.

Can you elaborate? Night Fight is all well and good, but only happens 50% of the time first turn. Excluding vehicles, out of 25 units in the codex, 13 are no longer viable to use (basically any assault unit). So Dark Eldar are limited to shooty units only now. Granted, the shooty part has been buffed in general. But how do you justify over half the DE codex being useless now, as Dark Eldar being buffed?

The Dark Eldar codex was generally perceived as one of the most balanced codices in the history of GW. After the release of MEQ/TEQhammer 40k, half of it is no longer viable. I don't see the balance in that.

Gladly! While you are right that the assault elements of D. Eldar were somewhat nerfed, their shooting element of their army got a lot better. To me, 5th ed was dominated by the shooting phase. Which is why you always saw the same armies winning tournaments (i.e. IG, Wolves, and even GK with their psyflemen). In 6th, the game has changed a bit but still largely dominated by the shooting phase. The difference is the integration of new units such as flyers and units that were never used in 5th are now in a renaissance. Infantry lists will be popping up all over the place if you ask me. While D.Eldar don't have many options to field an all infantry list, they have some decent options for firepower in general. Warriors can spam (forget the name) the S8 AP2 18" weapons, your ravagers can do the same, a void raven (with the new flyer rules) may not be such a bad option, especially with implosion missiles. All this shooting backed up by night vision, which is way under rated IMO. While night fight only happens 50% in the first turn, it is almost guaranteed in every game. If night fight doesn't come on turn 1, you roll again on turn 4 and every turn after until it becomes night fight.

Again, I will have to agree that D. Eldar got boned on their assault elements, but that doesn't mean they won't work. They still can provide decent number of attacks at a high initiative with poison! I want to take a moment to talk about initiative. Initiative as a whole got boned in 6th. I think GW realized how good high initiative actually was and try to balance it out. They did so by adding AP to weapons, and modifying the initiative to those lower AP weapons (for example: axes are unwieldy but at AP2.) D. Eldar has a distinct advantage over most armies by striking first! While those attacks may not ignore armor like they used to, don't under estimate forcing saves before anyone else gets to strike. On top of that, higher initiative gets to pile in first, meaning you get positioning over your opponent (most of the time), and if you recall, I believe positioning and maneuverability are the key to success in 6th. Not to mention FNP got a huge buff, something D. Eldar has an abundance of. Fearless got a huge buff (not taking fearless saves anymore), again something D. Eldar has an abundance of. Beasts are now freaking amazing, so your beast packs (while monetarily expensive) are maniacs on the field. Forgot to mention fleet that lets you reroll runs and charge!!!! With charge range getting a boost, (or nerd depending how you look at it) fleet is a luxury and be glad you have it!

Mandor wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:The loss of the bonus to iniative when furious charging is the one nerf in this new edition that actually hurts marines more than any other race.

DE - with it would strike at I6. There are very few things that are actually I6 that the DE would hate to run into that still striking at I5 will actually matter.

True, the initiative nerf of FnP hardly affects Dark Eldar assault. Then again, with Overwatch versus T3Sv5+, nerfed assault range, no assault from reserve and WWP, no AP2 assault weapons (except for a single one on a 57pts T3Sv3+ model), Dark Eldar have no reason to assault any more at all. Arguably, you could abuse the Fortune/Shadowfield combo for one decent assault unit in your army and model your Archon with a Power Axe. This setup will set you down about 200pts at the very least and doesn't solve the transport problem.

Assault no longer is a competitive option for Dark Eldar. Which is a shame, because half the codex is about assault.

Honestly, the FC affects Orks the most. Poor bastards striking at I2/3. Even Necrons can keep up with them now!

Overwatch can be bad, agreed. I think people are over thinking it anyway. Again positioning and maneuverability being key, keep this in mind. Charge with your base models (no upgrades) in the front ranks. That way if (and thats a big if) any overwatch shots get through, you don't lose important models. Overwatch only hits on a 6, not very good chances of wounding your D. Eldar. Don't wyches get invuls in the assault phase? Or does it read in assault? Big difference there on grounds for overwatch.

If you want to complain about transports, get in line. Everyones transports get nerfed! You can't assault out of them even if they HAVEN'T moved!!! You still have some of the best transports in the game. Yes, they are fragile (but what vehicle isn't anymore?). However they are fast, provide great firebase, and have some excellent defense (with night shields and flicker fields).

Here's my summary, I believe that D. Eldar was the first codex to come out with 6th ed in mind. As Phil Kelly is an excellent rule/fluff writer, he kept in mind the player in 5th ed but looked towards 6th ed with the rules in mind. D. Eldar was a very balanced army in 5th ed with extreme potential, but it took one hell of a general to maximize its potential. 6th ed will be no different, except in the way that every army will play that way. No army has an auto win button (that we see so far! I'm sure with allies that someone will find the combo that dominates). The game has evolved, the player must evolve with it. You have rights to believe that your army got nerfed. However, before that conclusion is finalized, reconsider that maybe your build of your army got nerfed. It sucks, but it happens.

Hope I elaborated well enough

Exergy wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

J Mac wrote:
D. Eldar got great IMO!

Indeed. No longer being irrevocably married to paper transports to kill stuff will be a god send.

so if they arent married to them then they are out in the open taking 24" bolter fire. They died pretty fast to 12" bolter fire so this is supposed to be better? Other than a init1 power axe they have no AP2 weapons and very few DE can stand up to init 1 with their crappy toughness and saves.

I think out of any army, DE webway armies have to most reason to be butthurt about 6th. It's not even an army anymore. Only having 1/2 an army in reserve and not being able to assault when you come out compleatly nerfed that build.

Overwatch can make a dent. playing against BA the other day i took out a Dread using Overwatch when it treid to charge a 10 warrior blob with a StormTek (assault 4 haywire! LOL!).

the his Vanguard charged me and i managed to take out 2 from overwatch. not great but in a squad of 5 (the remianing 3 did butcher and sweep the etire unit though).

I call that lucky on your part! That isn't an easy feat, but if anyone were to make it easy, Necrons would be the army to do it.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Exergy wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

J Mac wrote:
D. Eldar got great IMO!

Indeed. No longer being irrevocably married to paper transports to kill stuff will be a god send.

so if they arent married to them then they are out in the open taking 24" bolter fire. They died pretty fast to 12" bolter fire so this is supposed to be better? Other than a init1 power axe they have no AP2 weapons and very few DE can stand up to init 1 with their crappy toughness and saves.

Why are they out in the open? That's a fairly dumb way to play.

Their guns shoot back at 24" and you get more of them per point.

I was always under the impression Blasters and Dark Lances were AP2, maybe your codex is different than mine.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

farrowking37 wrote:In my opinion some of the more ranged armies have been buffed, like the SM and Tau. Melee centric armies have been Nerfed a bit by the new power weapon rules, namely the Orks and Necrons, and even the gray knights to some extent.

Necrons are a melee-centric army?

Also, how did Power Weapon changes nerf Orks? They all have Power Klaws anyway.

To be entirely fair, you can make a melee crons list. Every slot but Troops and Heavy Support has melee options. HQ can take CCB Warscythe Overlords or Destroyer Lords, Elite can spam Praetorians, Lychguard, or Flayed Ones. Fast Attack has Wraiths and Scarabs. You could also argue that Spyders are melee options for heavy support (although not very good ones). Actually, if you think about it, the crons codex is filled with melee options.

However, I agree that Necrons are not at their best when built around melee, with all-round I2. Lychguard got a huge nerf to sword and board, and if they want to deal with AP2 they have to go with Warscythes, taking away their Invulnerable Save. Praetorians got a boost, but I'm not sure how big of a boost it is. I will consider running Rods of the Covenant now though. Flayed Ones were strong melee blobs in numbers, but I remember there were always better options. Scarabs were only good at killing vehicles (and Scarab Congo line before it was FAQ'd out) and have a less important role now that vehicles are easier to kill. Wraiths were the only strong CC option in 5th, and are going to be even better now that there's a huge boost to coils. When compared with the huge buff to Destroyers, Gauss Immortals, Warriors with and without an Ark, both Heavy Barges, and Fliers, I don't think that CC Crons is the way to go.

Mandor wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:The loss of the bonus to iniative when furious charging is the one nerf in this new edition that actually hurts marines more than any other race.

DE - with it would strike at I6. There are very few things that are actually I6 that the DE would hate to run into that still striking at I5 will actually matter.

True, the initiative nerf of FC hardly affects Dark Eldar assault. Then again, with Overwatch versus T3Sv5+, nerfed assault range, no assault from reserve and WWP, no AP2 assault weapons (except for a single one on a 57pts T3Sv3+ model), Dark Eldar have no reason to assault any more at all. Arguably, you could abuse the Fortune/Shadowfield combo for one decent assault unit in your army and model your Archon with a Power Axe. This setup will set you down about 200pts at the very least and doesn't solve the transport problem.

Assault no longer is a competitive option for Dark Eldar. Which is a shame, because half the codex is about assault.

Sorry, I'n not buying into the doom and gloom of DE assault like you have. There is a reason we can get three hamies for 1 HQ slot. You will just need to now think of them overwatch fodder. You send them in first, absorb the overwatch then assault with what ever unit they were originally deployed with.

Your also assuming that every army will now have 30 terminators in it. Yeah right. Funny how over half of the listed codex armies out there can't spam termi stats. Termies will still die to weight of attacks. So incubi no longer ignore their 2+, but they are still hitting on 3s, wounding on 3 (with FC), throw in a Klavix and he is doing even more damage because he can ignore their 2+. You still going to drop them well enough before they swing.

And if you really don't want to go into HTH, you might just have to change out one ravagers worth of dark lances to disintigrators.

Assault DE is far from dead, it just doesn't exactly work like it used to.

J Mac wrote:

Mandor wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

J Mac wrote:
D. Eldar got great IMO!

Indeed. No longer being irrevocably married to paper transports to kill stuff will be a god send.

Can you elaborate? Night Fight is all well and good, but only happens 50% of the time first turn. Excluding vehicles, out of 25 units in the codex, 13 are no longer viable to use (basically any assault unit). So Dark Eldar are limited to shooty units only now. Granted, the shooty part has been buffed in general. But how do you justify over half the DE codex being useless now, as Dark Eldar being buffed?

The Dark Eldar codex was generally perceived as one of the most balanced codices in the history of GW. After the release of MEQ/TEQhammer 40k, half of it is no longer viable. I don't see the balance in that.

Gladly! While you are right that the assault elements of D. Eldar were somewhat nerfed, their shooting element of their army got a lot better. To me, 5th ed was dominated by the shooting phase. Which is why you always saw the same armies winning tournaments (i.e. IG, Wolves, and even GK with their psyflemen). In 6th, the game has changed a bit but still largely dominated by the shooting phase. The difference is the integration of new units such as flyers and units that were never used in 5th are now in a renaissance. Infantry lists will be popping up all over the place if you ask me. While D.Eldar don't have many options to field an all infantry list, they have some decent options for firepower in general. Warriors can spam (forget the name) the S8 AP2 18" weapons, your ravagers can do the same, a void raven (with the new flyer rules) may not be such a bad option, especially with implosion missiles. All this shooting backed up by night vision, which is way under rated IMO. While night fight only happens 50% in the first turn, it is almost guaranteed in every game. If night fight doesn't come on turn 1, you roll again on turn 4 and every turn after until it becomes night fight.

Again, I will have to agree that D. Eldar got boned on their assault elements, but that doesn't mean they won't work. They still can provide decent number of attacks at a high initiative with poison! I want to take a moment to talk about initiative. Initiative as a whole got boned in 6th. I think GW realized how good high initiative actually was and try to balance it out. They did so by adding AP to weapons, and modifying the initiative to those lower AP weapons (for example: axes are unwieldy but at AP2.) D. Eldar has a distinct advantage over most armies by striking first! While those attacks may not ignore armor like they used to, don't under estimate forcing saves before anyone else gets to strike. On top of that, higher initiative gets to pile in first, meaning you get positioning over your opponent (most of the time), and if you recall, I believe positioning and maneuverability are the key to success in 6th. Not to mention FNP got a huge buff, something D. Eldar has an abundance of. Fearless got a huge buff (not taking fearless saves anymore), again something D. Eldar has an abundance of. Beasts are now freaking amazing, so your beast packs (while monetarily expensive) are maniacs on the field. Forgot to mention fleet that lets you reroll runs and charge!!!! With charge range getting a boost, (or nerd depending how you look at it) fleet is a luxury and be glad you have it!

First off fleet does not let you reroll run AND charge if so then fine fleet would be good. As it is you get to reroll ONE of those two and you cannot charge after running. Fleet got another major nerf...apparently everyone should move almost the same. The problem is that the army is not just shooty, it is at least half assault too. FNP kind of got a buff in that you get it vs attacks that don't allow armor, but I will miss the 4+ and 4+ FNP on wyches. The only viable way to assault now is to throw a haemy at them and hope you roll high enough on the wyches afterward to be able to make the charge too. That way you get FNP and don't get overwatched to death. Fearless is nice. Manuverability got better for everyone else but not for the army that was at the top of that later (DE) since they pretty much stayed still and everyone else is getting faster. Beasts aren't much better than they were before, but now you have to take a clawed fiend up front to give you some protection.

J Mac wrote:

Mandor wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:The loss of the bonus to iniative when furious charging is the one nerf in this new edition that actually hurts marines more than any other race.

DE - with it would strike at I6. There are very few things that are actually I6 that the DE would hate to run into that still striking at I5 will actually matter.

True, the initiative nerf of FnP hardly affects Dark Eldar assault. Then again, with Overwatch versus T3Sv5+, nerfed assault range, no assault from reserve and WWP, no AP2 assault weapons (except for a single one on a 57pts T3Sv3+ model), Dark Eldar have no reason to assault any more at all. Arguably, you could abuse the Fortune/Shadowfield combo for one decent assault unit in your army and model your Archon with a Power Axe. This setup will set you down about 200pts at the very least and doesn't solve the transport problem.

Assault no longer is a competitive option for Dark Eldar. Which is a shame, because half the codex is about assault.

Honestly, the FC affects Orks the most. Poor bastards striking at I2/3. Even Necrons can keep up with them now!

Overwatch can be bad, agreed. I think people are over thinking it anyway. Again positioning and maneuverability being key, keep this in mind. Charge with your base models (no upgrades) in the front ranks. That way if (and thats a big if) any overwatch shots get through, you don't lose important models. Overwatch only hits on a 6, not very good chances of wounding your D. Eldar. Don't wyches get invuls in the assault phase? Or does it read in assault? Big difference there on grounds for overwatch.

If you want to complain about transports, get in line. Everyones transports get nerfed! You can't assault out of them even if they HAVEN'T moved!!! You still have some of the best transports in the game. Yes, they are fragile (but what vehicle isn't anymore?). However they are fast, provide great firebase, and have some excellent defense (with night shields and flicker fields).

Here's my summary, I believe that D. Eldar was the first codex to come out with 6th ed in mind. As Phil Kelly is an excellent rule/fluff writer, he kept in mind the player in 5th ed but looked towards 6th ed with the rules in mind. D. Eldar was a very balanced army in 5th ed with extreme potential, but it took one hell of a general to maximize its potential. 6th ed will be no different, except in the way that every army will play that way. No army has an auto win button (that we see so far! I'm sure with allies that someone will find the combo that dominates). The game has evolved, the player must evolve with it. You have rights to believe that your army got nerfed. However, before that conclusion is finalized, reconsider that maybe your build of your army got nerfed. It sucks, but it happens.

Wyches only get their dodge in close combat not the assault phase. So no 4++ from overwatch. DE were in no way meant for 6th except for the fliers. No AP2 in CC except for an overcosted model. Please stop saying things about manuevablity. While everyone else can turbo giving them 18" DE only get 6" more which used to be 12" more and pulled you out of assault range. Where DE transports got hosed is the whole fact that regardless of how far I moved and how much turning I did my venom is as easy to hit as a Land Raider or Monolith that barely moved at all! Had Agonisers been AP 2 then we would have something to talk about. I don't think overwatch is a death scentance as 9 bolters and one flamer would be rough...18 shots, 3 hits 2 wounds, flamer 2 hits 1-2 wounds, thats 3-4 wounds saving another 1-2 with FNP, so while that could kill the haemy the wyches would be relatively safe. Then again why are you charging a full tac squad with wyches?

All in all dark eldar DID get nerfed quite a bit, but it is far from the dark days of 4th. Assault is in big trouble, but scourges got a major buff as did both the voidraven (still not sure on implosion missiles being so expensive) and the razorwing.


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Switching out to dissies doesn't help, you then give up air power and lose out on a great deal of AT.