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AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Nate668 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Nate668 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Templars got slapped for no reason at all. No more Preferred Enemy in CC, Emperor's Champion can't be the Warlord and we've got no Characters other than our HQs.

Meh, templars are fine. Rage instead of PE means that chaplains are useful now, and while we lack characters in units, we have unchallengeable PF's.

Yes, no PE means that Chaplains are useful. That doesn't change the fact that it's a nerf. Furthermore, while unchallengable PFs are nice, it also means that any Character we have in that squad will have to accept a challenge or back down, whereas other Codices have the option of accepting the challenge on a Sergeant.

Yep, any change with pros and cons is a nerf if you ignore the pros.

No, sorry, the only time Rage is better than our old Preferred Enemy is if you're charging with a Chaplain. It doesn't work on subsequent rounds of close combat and doesn't work if you get charged. While having unchallengable Fists are nice, I'd rather have Power Fists that actually deal damage.

Right, the pros are that you're now better on the charge in a unit with a chaplain, and the ability no longer forces you to assault. The cons are that you're now slightly weaker on the charge without chaplains than you were before, and worse outside of the charge turn for sure. The point I'm trying to make is that not every change has to be a nerf or a buff. Some things, like AACNMTO in my opinion, just work differently now without clearly being better or worse than they were before.

Also power fists don't kill anything if they get challenged and wiped out before they get to attack, preferred enemy or no.

Nate668 wrote:
Also power fists don't kill anything if they get challenged and wiped out before they get to attack, preferred enemy or no.

That goes both ways though; we'd be able to kill off enemy Power Fists in challenges as well.

Regardless of the size of the AAC nerf, put it this way; what got better? Terminators, Assault Marines and... I guess unchallengable Power Fists... We weren't exactly a stellar Codex before, now that we'll be relying on getting the charge we'll probably be worse off than before, which wasn't needed at all.

Titan Atlas wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:These are my overall impressions. Some units from each codex got buffed and nurfed. Ill give a short summary of each.
This is NOT a list of most powerful to least powerful. GK got nurfed, but are still a great codex.

Buffed
Orks.........losing fearless wounds in assault means green tide armies are very tough to dislodge. Green tide shootas will be a power army.
C:SM.......ATSKNF, combat tactics, regrouping with 6" of enemies. They have access to flyers and bikes as troops.
BA............Jump troops got a nice boost. AV 13 predator spam got a boost. Mephiston can more easily chump many ICs.
Necrons....New power codex for 6th. Time for GK to give up its throne.
DE.............More foot troops == more poison shot targets. Can ally with Eldar. Foot' Deldar will be more common.
Nids...........MCs better. Vehicles are more killable now.
Daemons...Flying circus got a lot better.


Roughly Same
IG............Best flyers in the game. Russ squadrens are like bricks. Blobs less effective. Chimeras more vulnerable. PG vets FTW.
SW..........Lack of flyers hurts. GH dual PG squads with terminator WG got much better. ML spam nurfed. TW calv is more scary.
Eldar........Mech'dar is dead. Foot'dar is buffed with DE allies. Guardian jetbikes got better.
Tau..........Broadsides losing dual shot sucks. Gaining allies to shore up crap assault helps a lot (TH/SS termies for example).
Black Templars....Not assaulting from Rhino's hurts. Random assaults can be good or bad for them. Their pretty close to the same though.


Nurfed
GK...........Force weapons are now AP3. Psydreads can now be stopped with 3 hits. While their still good, their no longer 'best codex by far'.
SOBs.......Your DCAs can't even assault out of Rhinos any more. The only purpose of DCAs it to bring them as allies for Jacob.
CSM........Jump packs DPs sucks. Not assaulting from Rhinos suck.

I dunno why people don't think BA got an overall buff. Nerfs came to some of the cheap, annoying easy options like razorspam that were more dependable in 5th, but they have a bunch of other ones to replace it. The psychic powers options are gorgeous, sanguinary guard are a unit that I can feasibly use without feeling like I'm only using them cause they look cool, Death Company are raging monsters that can actually focus on your intended target without being kited away, and preds/baals/vindis are a great option. VV's are more viable, sternguard have interestingly been given more attention by fellow players for consideration, and Astorath just became essential if you want to make more effective use of DC marines, as well as doubling as a monstrous chaplain for them.

BA got nerfed hard. One or two units becoming good (that are also terribly overpriced) doesn't account for most of our global abilities getting the hammer (reserving, FnP, FC, cover saves)

Titan Atlas wrote:I dunno why people don't think BA got an overall buff. Nerfs came to some of the cheap, annoying easy options like razorspam that were more dependable in 5th, but they have a bunch of other ones to replace it. .

Agreed.

Razorspam got nurfed badly. BA overall got a buff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stoffer wrote:BA got nerfed hard. One or two units becoming good (that are also terribly overpriced) doesn't account for most of our global abilities getting the hammer (reserving, FnP, FC, cover saves)

* You can FNP from power/force weapons
* If you want cover saves, bring an aegis defense line
* Start with 1/2 your models on the board -- like devs in ruins
* FC does not give you +1 init, but jump troops get Hammer and can reroll assault distance.

I know its easy to get focused on the negative, but look at the whole picture.

labmouse42 wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:I dunno why people don't think BA got an overall buff. Nerfs came to some of the cheap, annoying easy options like razorspam that were more dependable in 5th, but they have a bunch of other ones to replace it. .

Agreed.

Razorspam got nurfed badly. BA overall got a buff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stoffer wrote:BA got nerfed hard. One or two units becoming good (that are also terribly overpriced) doesn't account for most of our global abilities getting the hammer (reserving, FnP, FC, cover saves)

* You can FNP from power/force weapons
* If you want cover saves, bring an aegis defense line
* Start with 1/2 your models on the board -- like devs in ruins
* FC does not give you +1 init, but jump troops get Hammer and can reroll assault distance.

I know its easy to get focused on the negative, but look at the whole picture.

Power weapons were never my issue. Most squads you're up against will have 1-2 low AP guns and some form of powerweapon. FnP was useful for shrugging off the other 9 guns in the squad. I'd always accept that a squad would shoot at me and I'd lose someone from the plasma but 3+/4+ my way out of everything else. That's not happening anymore.

I already play with devs but this means I'm locked into devs instead of being able to experiment with flyers etc as support.

Yeah, I get hammer and reroll if I move 6 in the movement phase. 6 + 2d6 is awful if you're including overwatch which might kill your first guy.

Our upgrades are basically DC, which will cost you north of 400 points fully kitted out and Sanguinary Guard, who are about as situational as any unit gets.

Edit: 6th is a shooty edition, calling a codex centered around assaulting buffed is pretty :V

Ailaros wrote:Guard got unequivocally worse. ... power blobs are dead.

Whoa there. Move and shoot 24" (sometimes twice with FRFSRF), and power axes on the Sergeants and Commissars is somehow worse?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Guard got unequivocally worse. ... power blobs are dead.

Whoa there. Move and shoot 24" (sometimes twice with FRFSRF), and power axes on the Sergeants and Commissars is somehow worse?

Plus overwatch, flying Vendettas, and moving around HW's and firing at full effect.

I suppose it won't be a transition from one edition without players being butthurt about changes to their particular army and how they'll have to adjust.

Also, SG are awesome. Sure, you can't really send them into combat with terminators (it is a WASTE, that's what DC + chaplain are for now) but they wreck almost anything else. Nothing quite like going into an angry unit bearing all power swords and coming out completely unscathed.

Stoffer wrote:Power weapons were never my issue. Most squads you're up against will have 1-2 low AP guns and some form of powerweapon. FnP was useful for shrugging off the other 9 guns in the squad. I'd always accept that a squad would shoot at me and I'd lose someone from the plasma but 3+/4+ my way out of everything else. That's not happening anymore.

Really? My friends who played BA said that GKs shut them down. The GKs ability to force weapon them down with no save or FNP ment they lost every assault. At least now you have a chance.

In regards to the 3+/4+ you realize its now a 3+/5+ right? A bolter wound went from 16.33% chance of killing the BA to 22.22%. How bad of a nurf is that really?

Stoffer wrote:I already play with devs but this means I'm locked into devs instead of being able to experiment with flyers etc as support.

Why is that the case? If you want to bring flyers, then bring a few fast attack units on the board to start with. You can put 1/2 your army in reserves (rounding up) and flyers don't count for this limit. Therefore you could bring the following..

On the board
- Captain on bike
- Bike Squad
- Priest on Bike
- Dev Squad
- Priest with Dev Squad
- Baal Predator
- Baal Predator

In reserve
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- Priest with jump pack
- Priest with jump pack
- Stormraven
- Stormraven

Stoffer wrote:Yeah, I get hammer and reroll if I move 6 in the movement phase. 6 + 2d6 is awful if you're including overwatch which might kill your first guy.

A snap shot bolter shot has a 1/54 killing a FNP BA. The assault distances have been nurfed, but what are you trying to assault with your DoA army? You have an 80% to get a 18" threat range with your assault. In every DoA army I've played, they have always dropped closer than 18" away (usually melta'ing me on the way in)

Stoffer wrote:Edit: 6th is a shooty edition, calling a codex centered around assaulting buffed is pretty :V

If you feel that way, make your BA shooty -- its easy to do. If you think BA suck, then sell your BA and play a new army. At this point it seems like you already made up your mind to do one of those two.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Guard got unequivocally worse. ... power blobs are dead.

Whoa there. Move and shoot 24" (sometimes twice with FRFSRF), and power axes on the Sergeants and Commissars is somehow worse?

Ailaros might be right, i'm afraid.

Move & shoot 24" ... but what ? The weakest troop weapon of WH40k galaxy ? Even accounting some extra shot opportunities with FRFSRF order, our laser gun has too humble firepower.
Nothing comparable to the boost of Gauss guns, bolters and pulse rifle get with this V6 rule. Against a lot of targets, laser guns remain negligible. Most other basic guns can now glance light vehicles down to a pile of metal chips. We can't.

Roughly speaking, there are three horde armies in W40k : Orks, Tyranids and Guard.
While 'nids got fearless through synapse and orks got fearless through numbers, IG blobs relied on one expensive yet untargetable character to boost morale and obtain stubborn status.
We were grinding opposing squads slowly in HTH, while having reliable long range firepower (in these squads or elsewhere).

Actually, on IG side, our fragile commissars and sergeants can get picked by barrages, precision shots, precision HTH strikes, challenges (where most other armies are better at).
That's a lot of threats. Toughness 3, 1W, 5+ save : it's garbage ! The little gain from power axes will not compensate that fragility.
Commissar price made a sense in 5th rule set when he was untargetable, now it's ridiculous.
On the other hand, fearless has no disadvantage now : all the better for Orks & 'nids.

Meanwhile in 6th, big hordes will get difficult to hide behind cover, just like it was in 4th edition. Those who played back then will remember how it looked like. In the case horde player can't hide everyone in cover because of squad footprint, they have access to handy solutions to open ground dangers : kustom force field for orks and Venomthrope or FNP for 'nids. IG players have nothing like so. Chimera parking lot is a potential car scrap yard by turn 3, due to side AV 10 and new HP system.

Both our potent solutions for our troops (Chimera spam & blobs) got gimped. What's left ? Will independent squads backed by LRBT hold ? Will Valkyries save the day ?
I doubt so...

labmouse42 wrote:

Stoffer wrote:Power weapons were never my issue. Most squads you're up against will have 1-2 low AP guns and some form of powerweapon. FnP was useful for shrugging off the other 9 guns in the squad. I'd always accept that a squad would shoot at me and I'd lose someone from the plasma but 3+/4+ my way out of everything else. That's not happening anymore.

Really? My friends who played BA said that GKs shut them down. The GKs ability to force weapon them down with no save or FNP ment they lost every assault. At least now you have a chance.

In regards to the 3+/4+ you realize its now a 3+/5+ right? A bolter wound went from 16.33% chance of killing the BA to 22.22%. How bad of a nurf is that really?

Stoffer wrote:I already play with devs but this means I'm locked into devs instead of being able to experiment with flyers etc as support.

Why is that the case? If you want to bring flyers, then bring a few fast attack units on the board to start with. You can put 1/2 your army in reserves (rounding up) and flyers don't count for this limit. Therefore you could bring the following..

On the board
- Captain on bike
- Bike Squad
- Priest on Bike
- Dev Squad
- Priest with Dev Squad
- Baal Predator
- Baal Predator

In reserve
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- BA Assault Squad
- Priest with jump pack
- Priest with jump pack
- Stormraven
- Stormraven

Stoffer wrote:Yeah, I get hammer and reroll if I move 6 in the movement phase. 6 + 2d6 is awful if you're including overwatch which might kill your first guy.

A snap shot bolter shot has a 1/54 killing a FNP BA. The assault distances have been nurfed, but what are you trying to assault with your DoA army? You have an 80% to get a 18" threat range with your assault. In every DoA army I've played, they have always dropped closer than 18" away (usually melta'ing me on the way in)

Stoffer wrote:Edit: 6th is a shooty edition, calling a codex centered around assaulting buffed is pretty :V

If you feel that way, make your BA shooty -- its easy to do. If you think BA suck, then sell your BA and play a new army. At this point it seems like you already made up your mind to do one of those two.

1. Sure, it's a buff against Grey Knights, but against every other army it's a nerf. Across the board that means I'm worse off in 1 out of 15 or so battles or so? Added to that, I lost the initiative bonus offfurious charge, which was pretty crucial in terms of getting an alphastrike that made the counterpunch more manageable (unless I take the enticing offer of moving 6 and chancing it on 2d6. Average of 13 inch threat range, woo hoo!), all this from a 75 point model that you'd need 2-3 of in every single army. Right now I'm paying 75 for a 5+ FnP and 1+ Str. Great. In the grand scheme of things, 10 man assault squads are expensive and need to soak up a ton of fire every turn, so it won't ever be a single bolter shot. I will be whatever can reach my 2-3 squads. Blast templates, overwatch etc and when you have to shed that amount of wounds, it's pretty bad.

2. You're bringing units not because you want to bring them, but to fill out the list so you can reserve. I'm not sure Baal Preds are better off in this codex and I'd consider the bikes if they actually fit on the list. But if you're making bike lists, there are better codexes for that.

3. Sure, but then you're not getting Hammer and end up striking at the same time as whoever you're charging, which is fairly bad news.

4. I picked up a few boxes of Grey Knights on Monday! Was either that or Orks and I'm not sure I can paint 200 models

Ravajaxe wrote:Move & shoot 24" ... but what ? The weakest troop weapon of WH40k galaxy ?

Hey man, give credit where its due. Check out the poor eldar guardians. They got the biggest shaft in the game.

Ravajaxe wrote:Both our potent solutions for our troops (Chimera spam & blobs) got gimped. What's left ? Will independent squads backed by LRBT hold ? Will Valkyries save the day ?

Read the squadren rules. A squadren of 3 Russ' is nigh indestructable unless your hitting it close with a MG. You used to have to allocate multiple hits across the squad, now you have to keep hitting the closest Russ till its dead.

Blobs still get heavy weapons, which is something ork blobs can't. An ork squad of 30 boys objective camping can't do anything. At least the IG blob can shoot some LCs. If 'Bring it Down' can work on flyers or flying MCs, it helps even more. A TL gun just under a 1/3 chance of hitting flyers.
I'm not saying blobs are awesome, and they are no longer the CC deathtrap they were, but their still good at range.

So how did Chimeras get gimped? I get how razorbacks and rhinos were gimped, but how did the cheap AV 12 vehicle with 2 heavy weapons get gimped?

I won't get my rulebook until tomorrow, but I saw a squadron of demolishers, all with sponson heavy flamers and hull heavy flamers rape a unit trying to assault them with the snap fire. 9D3 S5 AP4 hits. The two survivors failed to kill the tanks, who just shifted left and fired again.

I'm very happy to have access to 2+ save jump troops and a storm raven to kill demolishers at range.

-Matt

Vehicles cant overwatch.

Armies will have to change.

Also Kharn having an axe means that he is AP 2, so can violate terminators.

You are still assaulting at the same time as you could before. You just have to spend a turn in the open now

5th:
turn 1: Move 12
Turn2: Move 12
Turn three disembark 8 assault 6
Total: 38

6th
Turn 1: Move 12, flat out 6
Turn 2: Move 6, Disembark 6
Turn 3: Move 6, assault 7ish
Total: 43ish

So you are actually moving just as fast. Now some vehicles will die(same as fifth) but you are still getting to assault at the same turn but the actual distance you cover is greater.

Leth wrote:
Also Kharn having an axe means that he is AP 2, so can violate terminators.

Of course, it also lets him suffer Instant Death from their Power Fists.

JohnnoM wrote: points 2, 3 and 4 are enough to make me want to scrap the army anyways.

I agree, you should scrap your army. I'll give you $10 for it. Heck, I'll even pay for shipping!

Leth wrote:You are still assaulting at the same time as you could before. You just have to spend a turn in the open now

5th:
turn 1: Move 12
Turn2: Move 12
Turn three disembark 8 assault 6
Total: 38

6th
Turn 1: Move 12, flat out 6
Turn 2: Move 6, Disembark 6
Turn 3: Move 6, assault 7ish
Total: 43ish

So you are actually moving just as fast. Now some vehicles will die(same as fifth) but you are still getting to assault at the same turn but the actual distance you cover is greater.

Except in 5th you had the option to assault turn 2 if there were available targets. You glossed that fact over pretty nicely.

Stoffer wrote:

4. I picked up a few boxes of Grey Knights on Monday! Was either that or Orks and I'm not sure I can paint 200 models

......the worst form of betrayal...

wuestenfux wrote:Well, Eldar and DE have been nerfed. I'd stay away from them. now. Eldar will get a codex next year.

Blood Angels are good with all their special units: DC, Sanguinary Guard, FnP, Assault Marines, Vanguard.

D. Eldar got great IMO! Night Fighting units will kick ass! Plus, in my eyes, 6th is all about manuverability and positioning, something that D. Eldar are kings of.

Eldar, yeah, agreed on their nerf. And again no contest on Blood Angels, they got 20x better!

J Mac wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Well, Eldar and DE have been nerfed. I'd stay away from them. now. Eldar will get a codex next year.

Blood Angels are good with all their special units: DC, Sanguinary Guard, FnP, Assault Marines, Vanguard.

D. Eldar got great IMO! Night Fighting units will kick ass! Plus, in my eyes, 6th is all about manuverability and positioning, something that D. Eldar are kings of.

Eldar, yeah, agreed on their nerf. And again no contest on Blood Angels, they got 20x better!

THANK YOU. I mean, 20x is obviously enthusiastic exaggeration, but still, a great improvement and makes me excited, especially since I had only just started in December of '11 and now this update buffs them, it's awesome

J Mac wrote:
D. Eldar got great IMO!

Indeed. No longer being irrevocably married to paper transports to kill stuff will be a god send.

DarknessEternal wrote:

J Mac wrote:
D. Eldar got great IMO!

Indeed. No longer being irrevocably married to paper transports to kill stuff will be a god send.

Can you elaborate? Night Fight is all well and good, but only happens 50% of the time first turn. Excluding vehicles, out of 25 units in the codex, 13 are no longer viable to use (basically any assault unit). So Dark Eldar are limited to shooty units only now. Granted, the shooty part has been buffed in general. But how do you justify over half the DE codex being useless now, as Dark Eldar being buffed?

The Dark Eldar codex was generally perceived as one of the most balanced codices in the history of GW. After the release of MEQ/TEQhammer 40k, half of it is no longer viable. I don't see the balance in that.

Mandor wrote:
Can you elaborate? Night Fight is all well and good, but only happens 50% of the time first turn. Excluding vehicles, out of 25 units in the codex, 13 are no longer viable to use (basically any assault unit).

That statement is patently ridiculous.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Mandor wrote:
Can you elaborate? Night Fight is all well and good, but only happens 50% of the time first turn. Excluding vehicles, out of 25 units in the codex, 13 are no longer viable to use (basically any assault unit).

That statement is patently ridiculous.

And your comment is even more so.

Before playing I thought my Dark Eldar would be nerfed but I acutally tabled my opponent's blood angels (lances really kill vehicles easily now it seems). Disintegrator cannons are a beast! heavy 3 str 5 ap 2 shots... with probably less vehicles to worry about in 6th my guess is that people will really swap out some lances for disintegrators... oh and razorwing jetfighter! It kicked ass with it's missiles and disintegrator cannons and it is sooo hard to hit now (night shields got more interesting too btw)

Mandor wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Mandor wrote:
Can you elaborate? Night Fight is all well and good, but only happens 50% of the time first turn. Excluding vehicles, out of 25 units in the codex, 13 are no longer viable to use (basically any assault unit).

That statement is patently ridiculous.

And your comment is even more so.

I'm not the one who claimed half a codex was non-viable without providing the list of those units or reasons why.

So how did Long Fang Missle laucher spam get nerfed?
They can now glace the living Gak out of any AV12 and under, with the ability to actually put down a LR with four 6's.
The fact that vehicles got nerfed just means they got more powerful, and if its a cover isssue well then go buy a shiny new metal wall.
The only real nerf to LF is that lack of being able to hit a flyer, which granted is a minor bad thorn in the side but only currently three armies can field transport flyers IRC.
So I beleive that LF spam will just be as strong as before, just not a must have since other things also got buffed.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Guard got unequivocally worse. ... power blobs are dead.

Whoa there. Move and shoot 24" (sometimes twice with FRFSRF), and power axes on the Sergeants and Commissars is somehow worse?

Over all? Yes, they're very dead. FRF getting slightly better is a tiny benefit that nowhere near covers all they've lost.

Let me get this straight: you can now take FNP saves against Power Swords and Plasma Guns,

You get a free I10 autohit at strength 4 with -all- of your scoring jump pack infantry,

Yes, your FNP was downgraded from 4+ to 5+, yes, you now have no initiative bonus on Furious Charge,

But has anyone actually run the math on this and come up with the conclusion that this is a net nerf?

6 Assault Marines with Hammer of Wrath produce 6 hits on the charge generating 3 wounds, 1 of which kills an MEQ. For sake of comparison, an additional Assault Marine on the charge would hit on 4's, wound on 3's, with 3 attacks. .5*.66*.33*3 = .33, e.g. with Hammer of Wrath with 6 Assault Marines you can equal the damage output of another 3 Assault Marines on the charge.

TedNugent wrote:Let me get this straight: you can now take FNP saves against Power Swords and Plasma Guns,

You get a free I10 autohit at strength 4 with -all- of your scoring jump pack infantry,

Yes, your FNP was downgraded from 4+ to 5+, yes, you now have no initiative bonus on Furious Charge,

But has anyone actually run the math on this and come up with the conclusion that this is a net nerf?

6 Assault Marines with Hammer of Wrath produce 6 hits on the charge generating 3 wounds, 1 of which kills an MEQ. For sake of comparison, an additional Assault Marine on the charge would hit on 4's, wound on 3's, with 3 attacks. .5*.66*.33*3 = .33, e.g. with Hammer of Wrath with 6 Assault Marines you can equal the damage output of another 3 Assault Marines on the charge.

Yeah, I'm thoroughly not convinced that it's a nerf in general, and the people who claim it to be don't really make a detailed case.