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Because my current army, (World Eaters Khorne army lead by Kharn) has been bashed to death with the nerf bat, I'm looking for a new army to start.
However, this isnt just a thread for me to find a new army, its also a thread to discuss which armies have been nerfed and which have been buffed, and why.



(Yes, I know theres a thread for just about every army, but its not very easy to go looking through all of them for answers)

Why would you start a new army now if chaos is going to get a new codex in August?

JohnnoM wrote:Because my current army, (World Eaters Khorne army lead by Kharn) has been bashed to death with the nerf bat, I'm looking for a new army to start.
However, this isnt just a thread for me to find a new army, its also a thread to discuss which armies have been nerfed and which have been buffed, and why.



(Yes, I know theres a thread for just about every army, but its not very easy to go looking through all of them for answers)

Most things Nurgle have been buffed quite a bit: FNP can be taken against AP 2/1 weapons as well as PFists, T 4(5) is now just T5, allies means that any Chaos Marines with a Mark of Nurgle now benefit from Epidemius' Tally abilities.

Whats wrong with World Eaters in 6th?

Assault has been nerfed a bit by makign charges random, but they have also been increased to 2D6.


i think there is somethgin in every armythat has been buffed and somethgin that has been nerfed. I can only speak for necrons really but here goes:


BUFFS:
**Destroyers - Preferred Enemy mean re-roll hit and 1's to wound (heavy Dstroyers are now very reliable Terminator Killer)
**Gauss now removed hull points on a 6 - massive boost to warriors
**The Nightscythe is arguably the best transport/flyer in the game since it can Zoom up to 36" and still deploy it's troops via "Invasion Beams"
**StormTeks are now a premier tank killer thanks to their Assault 4 Haywire staff
**Rapid Fire measn you can move your Warriors/Deathmarks/Gauss Immortals and still shoot at max range


NERFS
**Scarabs no longer get +1 to Cover save, although they do now atuo-pass all terrain tests
**CCB movement has been nerfed since Flat out s now done in the shootign phase, this means you can only do those lovely sweep attack up to 12" maximum. No more 24" fly-bys.
**Nightfighting is no way near as effcetive as it was, making Solar Pulses less of a "must take".

Praxiss wrote:Assault has been nerfed a bit by makign charges random, but they have also been increased to 2D6.


i think there is somethgin in every armythat has been buffed and somethgin that has been nerfed. I can only speak for necrons really but here goes:


BUFFS:
**Destroyers - Preferred Enemy mean re-roll hit and 1's to wound (heavy Dstroyers are now very reliable Terminator Killer)
**Gauss now removed hull points on a 6 - massive boost to warriors
**The Nightscythe is arguably the best transport/flyer in the game since it can Zoom up to 36" and still deploy it's troops via "Invasion Beams"
**StormTeks are now a premier tank killer thanks to their Assault 4 Haywire staff
**Rapid Fire measn you can move your Warriors/Deathmarks/Gauss Immortals and still shoot at max range


NERFS
**Scarabs no longer get +1 to Cover save, although they do now atuo-pass all terrain tests
**CCB movement has been nerfed since Flat out s now done in the shootign phase, this means you can only do those lovely sweep attack up to 12" maximum. No more 24" fly-bys.
**Nightfighting is no way near as effcetive as it was, making Solar Pulses less of a "must take".

New night fighting makes Immotekh good in any necron army though.... as giving opponents cover doesn't matter when most of your stuffs AP -

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Whats wrong with World Eaters in 6th?

Many, many things.

1. Nerf to rhinos with hull points means my army could be out in the open before I even move.

2. You can't assault out of rhinos, at all. Even if they haven't moved.

3. Furious Charge is only +1 str, not str and init.

4. Kharn the Betrayer now has a power axe, aka, he now strikes last is exchange for +1 strength, whoopy.

These added together with the fact that combat has been nerfed overall, and shooting has been buffed means im screwed.

Praxiss wrote:Assault has been nerfed a bit by makign charges random, but they have also been increased to 2D6.


i think there is somethgin in every armythat has been buffed and somethgin that has been nerfed. I can only speak for necrons really but here goes:


BUFFS:
**Destroyers - Preferred Enemy mean re-roll hit and 1's to wound (heavy Dstroyers are now very reliable Terminator Killer)
**Gauss now removed hull points on a 6 - massive boost to warriors
**The Nightscythe is arguably the best transport/flyer in the game since it can Zoom up to 36" and still deploy it's troops via "Invasion Beams"
**StormTeks are now a premier tank killer thanks to their Assault 4 Haywire staff
**Rapid Fire measn you can move your Warriors/Deathmarks/Gauss Immortals and still shoot at max range


NERFS
**Scarabs no longer get +1 to Cover save, although they do now atuo-pass all terrain tests
**CCB movement has been nerfed since Flat out s now done in the shootign phase, this means you can only do those lovely sweep attack up to 12" maximum. No more 24" fly-bys.
**Nightfighting is no way near as effcetive as it was, making Solar Pulses less of a "must take".

You forgot your fearless units no longer take no-retreat wounds, and warscythes are AP1

JohnnoM wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Whats wrong with World Eaters in 6th?

Many, many things.

1. Nerf to rhinos with hull points means my army could be out in the open before I even move.

2. You can't assault out of rhinos, at all. Even if they haven't moved.

3. Furious Charge is only +1 str, not str and init.

4. Kharn the Betrayer now has a power axe, aka, he now strikes last is exchange for +1 strength, whoopy.

These added together with the fact that combat has been nerfed overall, and shooting has been buffed means im screwed.

Whilst I agree to points 2-4, point 1 is valid in 5th. I've had games where my army was put out in the open before i got to move. Happens in a game of luck.

Maybe try some raiders, and some IoK CSM?

I can't afford raiders, and points 2, 3 and 4 are enough to make me want to scrap the army anyways.

Guard got unequivocally worse. Yes, russes got better, but chimeras are now twice as easy to kill with autocannons and power blobs are dead.

The only reason why I'm not up in arms is that I'm actually having a hard time seeing if anybody got BETTER. If everybody got worse, then my choice army getting worse isn't that much of a deal.

I think marines got better, but only builds no one really plays now.
Biker armies with plasma and dev support is now a really good build with HoW and multiple toughness values.
Likewise, typhus and plague marines and nurgle bikers are good. Better still if you run them with epidemus (I would say this is a top tier build at the moment). Chaos termie champions are also characters (with precision strikes) so that's a good buff.

Obviously fliers are now a big thing, but expensive in money and points so no one is running lists of them yet.

However, most of the current builds in the meta are now 'worse' but probably all relatively so.

Well, Eldar and DE have been nerfed. I'd stay away from them. now. Eldar will get a codex next year.

Blood Angels are good with all their special units: DC, Sanguinary Guard, FnP, Assault Marines, Vanguard.

Nids got better.
The FnP and cover changes, along with the increased chances of Night Fighting, increases the survivability of MCs against shooting, and we still retain our vehicle/terminator killiness.
Other aspects of the army are up and down, and it'll be while before a consensus is reached on how Nids will handle fliers (some think it will be a minor issue, since Nids traditionally advance quickly, limiting firing angles.)

Not too sure abotu BA to be honest. played agaisnt them yesterday. My barge Lord took out a squad of Ang. Guard and a Librarian. A squad of Vangurds DOA'd in and was taken out in 2 rounds of shooting, mostly by Rapid Fire overwatch.

Didn't help that, by habit he always puts hsi Sanguinary Priests at the front of the squad, so they were the first to die, thsu robbing him of his FNP rolls.

I've advised him to take his assault terminators from now on - They are nigh unkillable in CC now and there's not many armies that can put out high volumes of Ap2 fire.



IG have had a boost by way of Snapshot and Overwatch. Their tansk can now move and shoot everything. And if they do get charged they will smash it wilth Overwtach (especially with Hostshot lasguns...rapid fire Ap3).

Things not to charge, ever: Burna Boys, Storm Troopers, Thousand Sons.

just from a week of playing

buff

Necrons with Gauss vs. Hull Points and their doom scythe which has 4 for some reason

Wolves with Rp and Njal being the best psychic defense in the game right now (and eldrad) also long fangs able to knock AV12 vehicles and below off the field quickly.

Demons. Went from a bottom tier army to a mid tier probably with ability to work with CSM and the vector strike/MC buff.



Nerfed

Eldar - Beyond Eldrad, their vehicles are weak and up to 12" charge makes them vulnerable. Also, no saves on perils hurts them when they cast mega powers every round.

Orcs - no +1 initiative on FC means they don't strike before Necrons now or at the same time as guard. Their vehicles are super weak and lose hull points at an alarming rate. New game deployment/mission types don't suit their play style (table corners, short corners).

Doomscythe only has 3 hull points.

Many BA units are better, though our traditional 5th ed go to units got worse.

Buff:
DC now pumps out 5 attacks while charging, FNP now applies to anything not ID and no more being kite around. Probably went from the worst unit in the codex to one of the best.
San. Guards: 2+ save makes them actually reasonably durable, especially with a San. Priest attach or within 6" to give them FNP.
Termies: Just like everyone else's termies they are hard to kill this edition, compounded with FNP.
Bikes: T5 with FNP, they will get that extra 5+ against anything short of Railgun strength attacks.

Nerf:
Razorback: I am afraid their glory days are over. While they are still cheap fire support, you cant really spam them to victory the same way you could in 5th.
San. Priest: They are more prone to get killed this edition with precision strike and wound allocation rules.


Most changes that affect other marines apply here as well.

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:just from a week of playing

buff

Necrons with Gauss vs. Hull Points and their doom scythe which has 4 for some reason

Wolves with Rp and Njal being the best psychic defense in the game right now (and eldrad) also long fangs able to knock AV12 vehicles and below off the field quickly.

Demons. Went from a bottom tier army to a mid tier probably with ability to work with CSM and the vector strike/MC buff.



Nerfed

Eldar - Beyond Eldrad, their vehicles are weak and up to 12" charge makes them vulnerable. Also, no saves on perils hurts them when they cast mega powers every round.
Orcs - no +1 initiative on FC means they don't strike before Necrons now or at the same time as guard. Their vehicles are super weak and lose hull points at an alarming rate. New game deployment/mission types don't suit their play style (table corners, short corners).

All farseers still have the ghosthelm to negate a PotW on a 3+. Eldars are without doubt the best psykers atm. In addition to the RoWard defence many units will have a 5+ or 4+ Deny the witch roll.

I think infantry guard with Vendettas and some Russesa can be great. Just ally some DW for assault support and you got the best of two worlds really.

Templars got slapped for no reason at all. No more Preferred Enemy in CC, Emperor's Champion can't be the Warlord and we've got no Characters other than our HQs.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Templars got slapped for no reason at all. No more Preferred Enemy in CC, Emperor's Champion can't be the Warlord and we've got no Characters other than our HQs.

Meh, templars are fine. Rage instead of PE means that chaplains are useful now, and while we lack characters in units, we have unchallengeable PF's.

Praxiss wrote:Not too sure abotu BA to be honest. played agaisnt them yesterday. My barge Lord took out a squad of Ang. Guard and a Librarian. A squad of Vangurds DOA'd in and was taken out in 2 rounds of shooting, mostly by Rapid Fire overwatch.

Didn't help that, by habit he always puts hsi Sanguinary Priests at the front of the squad, so they were the first to die, thsu robbing him of his FNP rolls.

I've advised him to take his assault terminators from now on - They are nigh unkillable in CC now and there's not many armies that can put out high volumes of Ap2 fire.



IG have had a boost by way of Snapshot and Overwatch. Their tansk can now move and shoot everything. And if they do get charged they will smash it wilth Overwtach (especially with Hostshot lasguns...rapid fire Ap3).

Things not to charge, ever: Burna Boys, Storm Troopers, Thousand Sons.

Thousand sons dont get to overwatch. I cant remember offhand if it's because they are slow and purposeful, or relentless.

Nate668 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Templars got slapped for no reason at all. No more Preferred Enemy in CC, Emperor's Champion can't be the Warlord and we've got no Characters other than our HQs.

Meh, templars are fine. Rage instead of PE means that chaplains are useful now, and while we lack characters in units, we have unchallengeable PF's.

Yes, no PE means that Chaplains are useful. That doesn't change the fact that it's a nerf. Furthermore, while unchallengable PFs are nice, it also means that any Character we have in that squad will have to accept a challenge or back down, whereas other Codices have the option of accepting the challenge on a Sergeant.

Well, it appears that armies that seem to be nerfed can be buffed by using appropriate allies.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Nate668 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Templars got slapped for no reason at all. No more Preferred Enemy in CC, Emperor's Champion can't be the Warlord and we've got no Characters other than our HQs.

Meh, templars are fine. Rage instead of PE means that chaplains are useful now, and while we lack characters in units, we have unchallengeable PF's.

Yes, no PE means that Chaplains are useful. That doesn't change the fact that it's a nerf. Furthermore, while unchallengable PFs are nice, it also means that any Character we have in that squad will have to accept a challenge or back down, whereas other Codices have the option of accepting the challenge on a Sergeant.

Yep, any change with pros and cons is a nerf if you ignore the pros.

These are my overall impressions. Some units from each codex got buffed and nurfed. Ill give a short summary of each.
This is NOT a list of most powerful to least powerful. GK got nurfed, but are still a great codex.

Buffed
Orks.........losing fearless wounds in assault means green tide armies are very tough to dislodge. Green tide shootas will be a power army.
C:SM.......ATSKNF, combat tactics, regrouping with 6" of enemies. They have access to flyers and bikes as troops.
BA............Jump troops got a nice boost. AV 13 predator spam got a boost. Mephiston can more easily chump many ICs.
Necrons....New power codex for 6th. Time for GK to give up its throne.
DE.............More foot troops == more poison shot targets. Can ally with Eldar. Foot' Deldar will be more common.
Nids...........MCs better. Vehicles are more killable now.
Daemons...Flying circus got a lot better.


Roughly Same
IG............Best flyers in the game. Russ squadrens are like bricks. Blobs less effective. Chimeras more vulnerable. PG vets FTW.
SW..........Lack of flyers hurts. GH dual PG squads with terminator WG got much better. ML spam nurfed. TW calv is more scary.
Eldar........Mech'dar is dead. Foot'dar is buffed with DE allies. Guardian jetbikes got better.
Tau..........Broadsides losing dual shot sucks. Gaining allies to shore up crap assault helps a lot (TH/SS termies for example).
Black Templars....Not assaulting from Rhino's hurts. Random assaults can be good or bad for them. Their pretty close to the same though.


Nurfed
GK...........Force weapons are now AP3. Psydreads can now be stopped with 3 hits. While their still good, their no longer 'best codex by far'.
SOBs.......Your DCAs can't even assault out of Rhinos any more. The only purpose of DCAs it to bring them as allies for Jacob.
CSM........Jump packs DPs sucks. Not assaulting from Rhinos suck.

Nate668 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Nate668 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Templars got slapped for no reason at all. No more Preferred Enemy in CC, Emperor's Champion can't be the Warlord and we've got no Characters other than our HQs.

Meh, templars are fine. Rage instead of PE means that chaplains are useful now, and while we lack characters in units, we have unchallengeable PF's.

Yes, no PE means that Chaplains are useful. That doesn't change the fact that it's a nerf. Furthermore, while unchallengable PFs are nice, it also means that any Character we have in that squad will have to accept a challenge or back down, whereas other Codices have the option of accepting the challenge on a Sergeant.

Yep, any change with pros and cons is a nerf if you ignore the pros.

No, sorry, the only time Rage is better than our old Preferred Enemy is if you're charging with a Chaplain. It doesn't work on subsequent rounds of close combat and doesn't work if you get charged. While having unchallengable Fists are nice, I'd rather have Power Fists that actually deal damage.

labmouse42 wrote:These are my overall impressions. Some units from each codex got buffed and nurfed. Ill give a short summary of each.
This is NOT a list of most powerful to least powerful. GK got nurfed, but are still a great codex.

Buffed
Orks.........losing fearless wounds in assault means green tide armies are very tough to dislodge. Green tide shootas will be a power army.
C:SM.......ATSKNF, combat tactics, regrouping with 6" of enemies. They have access to flyers and bikes as troops.
BA............Jump troops got a nice boost. AV 13 predator spam got a boost. Mephiston can more easily chump many ICs.
Necrons....New power codex for 6th. Time for GK to give up its throne.
DE.............More foot troops == more poison shot targets. Can ally with Eldar. Foot' Deldar will be more common.
Nids...........MCs better. Vehicles are more killable now.
Daemons...Flying circus got a lot better.


Roughly Same
IG............Best flyers in the game. Russ squadrens are like bricks. Blobs less effective. Chimeras more vulnerable. PG vets FTW.
SW..........Lack of flyers hurts. GH dual PG squads with terminator WG got much better. ML spam nurfed. TW calv is more scary.
Eldar........Mech'dar is dead. Foot'dar is buffed with DE allies. Guardian jetbikes got better.
Tau..........Broadsides losing dual shot sucks. Gaining allies to shore up crap assault helps a lot (TH/SS termies for example).
Black Templars....Not assaulting from Rhino's hurts. Random assaults can be good or bad for them. Their pretty close to the same though.


Nurfed
GK...........Force weapons are now AP3. Psydreads can now be stopped with 3 hits. While their still good, their no longer 'best codex by far'.
SOBs.......Your DCAs can't even assault out of Rhinos any more. The only purpose of DCAs it to bring them as allies for Jacob.
CSM........Jump packs DPs sucks. Not assaulting from Rhinos suck.

I agree with pretty much everything in this list except the SoB entry. I think their FAQ actually gave them quite a boost.

I missed it. What happened to help the SOBs out?

labmouse42 wrote:These are my overall impressions. Some units from each codex got buffed and nurfed. Ill give a short summary of each.
This is NOT a list of most powerful to least powerful. GK got nurfed, but are still a great codex.

Buffed
Orks.........losing fearless wounds in assault means green tide armies are very tough to dislodge. Green tide shootas will be a power army.
C:SM.......ATSKNF, combat tactics, regrouping with 6" of enemies. They have access to flyers and bikes as troops.
BA............Jump troops got a nice boost. AV 13 predator spam got a boost. Mephiston can more easily chump many ICs.
Necrons....New power codex for 6th. Time for GK to give up its throne.
DE.............More foot troops == more poison shot targets. Can ally with Eldar. Foot' Deldar will be more common.
Nids...........MCs better. Vehicles are more killable now.
Daemons...Flying circus got a lot better.


Roughly Same
IG............Best flyers in the game. Russ squadrens are like bricks. Blobs less effective. Chimeras more vulnerable. PG vets FTW.
SW..........Lack of flyers hurts. GH dual PG squads with terminator WG got much better. ML spam nurfed. TW calv is more scary.
Eldar........Mech'dar is dead. Foot'dar is buffed with DE allies. Guardian jetbikes got better.
Tau..........Broadsides losing dual shot sucks. Gaining allies to shore up crap assault helps a lot (TH/SS termies for example).
Black Templars....Not assaulting from Rhino's hurts. Random assaults can be good or bad for them. Their pretty close to the same though.


Nurfed
GK...........Force weapons are now AP3. Psydreads can now be stopped with 3 hits. While their still good, their no longer 'best codex by far'.
SOBs.......Your DCAs can't even assault out of Rhinos any more. The only purpose of DCAs it to bring them as allies for Jacob.
CSM........Jump packs DPs sucks. Not assaulting from Rhinos suck.

I dunno why people don't think BA got an overall buff. Nerfs came to some of the cheap, annoying easy options like razorspam that were more dependable in 5th, but they have a bunch of other ones to replace it. The psychic powers options are gorgeous, sanguinary guard are a unit that I can feasibly use without feeling like I'm only using them cause they look cool, Death Company are raging monsters that can actually focus on your intended target without being kited away, and preds/baals/vindis are a great option. VV's are more viable, sternguard have interestingly been given more attention by fellow players for consideration, and Astorath just became essential if you want to make more effective use of DC marines, as well as doubling as a monstrous chaplain for them.