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@Zebio

The format of FW books is in no way similar to full army books. The CD get maybe 20 pages of fluff. and an army list.

The Legion of Azgorh is very small and could do with having a some expansion, especially in core choices. Even if they don't get the models the rules would be nice.

I really can't see FW products being sold in GW stores off the shelves (but I would like to be proven wrong). Instore ordering and a wider selection of books, yes. That would actually drop the price quite a bit to allow FW to use GW distribution.

I always order my FW books through my local GW store to avoid postage. They also stock a good range of them.

But I would love the actual models to be available in store without postage from FW.

Zid wrote:Not to mention the cost associated. Honestly if I have to fork out tons of money on fw models to stay competative I may just shelve my armies, or better yet sell them and start up hordes... Not going bankrupt for a damn game.

Oh, you would most definitely have to. A lot of FW units are pretty gakky, but the ones that aren't are so good you'll kinda need them. Ork and Eldar players will be buying FW especially, they're both older codices that are set to gain some pretty needed boosts from certain FW models, like the hornet.

Ultimately allowing FW for every army would be bad for the game though, because Space Marines and Imperial Guard, both armies that need no more help to be competitive, both get a plethora of awesome new, unbalanced gak they can wreck face with. No one else gets anything that's even worth a passing mention, other than Eldar and Orks like I said (and even then it's not much, Eldar get like two things if you count wraithseers and Orks get grot tanks, that squiggoth, I forget what else looked good for them), though I'm sure there will be no shortage of people coming out of the woodwork to try and convince me what a boon the new Dark Eldar reaper will be (lolololol), or how Tau are so OP now that I can legally use hazard suits or Commander O'Rly...

But everyone's lying to your face if they tell you none of the good FW units are "broken" or that it's no worse than what's already legal in 40k now...either that or they legitimately have no clue what they're talking about. If this comes to pass just wait and see how fething stupid and unfair (and expensive) this game can really get once the FW arms race starts.

Sidstyler wrote:But everyone's lying to your face if they tell you none of the good FW units are "broken" or that it's no worse than what's already legal in 40k now...either that or they legitimately have no clue what they're talking about.

Right, then. Put your money where your mouth is and tell me what Forge World IG has that's so broken that it should never be allowed into a game. Hades drills? Cyclops? Manticore AA platforms? And since you seem to be so keen on dismissing other people's opinions, I'm sure you'll have no problem crunching the numbers to prove any assertion you make.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:But everyone's lying to your face if they tell you none of the good FW units are "broken" or that it's no worse than what's already legal in 40k now...either that or they legitimately have no clue what they're talking about.

Right, then. Put your money where your mouth is and tell me what Forge World IG has that's so broken that it should never be allowed into a game. Hades drills? Cyclops? Manticore AA platforms? And since you seem to be so keen on dismissing other people's opinions, I'm sure you'll have no problem crunching the numbers to prove any assertion you make.

Nah man, see that's not how it works. When you become a true negative nancy and a true chicken little, the only thing that matters is how much bile you can spew and how hateful you can possibly be. Facts and figures are a bit too logical for these sorts of people.

My Tau REALLY want/need this one to be true. Also, that command Rhino is all I want for a SM HQ

Well, I've been buying FW for years (Decade?). I've never received any items in anything other than baggies so the clamshells seem to lend some credence to the rumor.

For me, the appeal of FW products isn't the rules, but the models. FW fills a significant void in GW's range by making items that GW proper doesn't make, but has rules for (Eldar Wave Serpent and weapon options). They also make items that, while there are rules, are cool looking alternate versions (Razorback turrets, SM Armor Variants, Elysians). I also like the IA books because they add flavor to the background in a way that GW proper doesn't.

By the way, am I totally off in thinking FW did have manufacturing in the US (Memphis?) previously? I'd swear I've received packages with no overseas markings in less than 4 days before.

I am not really excited, because I doubt this is true. Why can't GW do group orders of FW? Your telling me they will suddenly stock some of the FW range? I will believe it when I see it.

Although, picking up a Contemptor for cheaper WOULD be awesome...

So, what is with the FW hate? If someone can actually buy it, why not allow it at least once? Oh wait, I forgot, some feel that FW will win them the game, when in reality the FW stuff does wind up blowing up or getting mauled by MC's and GC's easily enough.

Sheesh!

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Oh boy! I can't wait to see the game that includes a Tau Manta on a 6'x4' table!

Forgeworld has little marks denoting whether it's for 40k, or for APOC, this is not a valid argument.

It's not an argument. I legitimately think it would be awesome to see a Manta on a table, and units fighting in its shadow. And the Tau need all the help they can get.

I would love to be able to use Tomb Stalkers; I think they would accompany a Wraithwing or MTO list very nicely. And even more importantly, I want to be able to use Monolith formations.

My only concern is how this will continue to tip the scales in the favor of The Imperium.

They'll get ever better tanks, better flyers, better assault vehicles.. while Xenos armies get units that are indoubtedly more expensive and less effective than imperial counterparts.

Funny that, people been saying how Eldar and Orks will ''need FW new stuff to be competitive'' or something of the like, and yet their FW stuff are ''less effective''.

Yay! I can't wait to be able to use grot tanks and an assault ram without someone saying "you can't use FW without agreement" for no reason at all. The "by agreement of both players" bit is taken too far by many people, to the point of an assumption that you can't use them most of the time. Hopefully this will tip it the other way. I want me a loverly bone colour ram to go with my DW raider.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Nah man, see that's not how it works. When you become a true negative nancy and a true chicken little, the only thing that matters is how much bile you can spew and how hateful you can possibly be. Facts and figures are a bit too logical for these sorts of people.

Yeah, whatever, nice trolling. There certainly is a disturbing lack of logic when it comes to FW threads and I'll give you a hint, it's not all coming from me.

By making FW legal in all games you're expanding the pool of available units by a rather large degree, and they're all units who weren't actually playtested by the guys who wrote your damn ruleook, they were made by a bunch of model-makers in a completely separate studio, who just needed to come up with some rules to sell the models (because pretty models are one thing, but it's hard to convince someone to part with that much cash for something that's just going to gather dust on a shelf). It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this type of action could potentially lead to abuse, whether or not it's readily apparent. GW does it all the time, they let things slip through that weren't playtested properly and it ends up doing harm to the game. And the guys in GW's studio are actual game designers. How much harm would it do when someone discovers something that could be potentially broken buried in one of their IA books, stuff no one thought about before because it would have never been allowed in regular 40k anyway?

All you people going "Yeah bring it on!" are making a huge mistake in at least not being partially cautious. Depending on how this plays out it could either be kinda fun, or a really bad fething thing. At best a couple of armies get something new and cool that help bring them back up to par with newer codices...at worst the armies that are already on top get new options that push them into full-on broken.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:But everyone's lying to your face if they tell you none of the good FW units are "broken" or that it's no worse than what's already legal in 40k now...either that or they legitimately have no clue what they're talking about.

Right, then. Put your money where your mouth is and tell me what Forge World IG has that's so broken that it should never be allowed into a game. Hades drills? Cyclops? Manticore AA platforms? And since you seem to be so keen on dismissing other people's opinions, I'm sure you'll have no problem crunching the numbers to prove any assertion you make.

You pro-FW types are the ones with the onus of proof on them, as far as I'm concerned, because you're the ones insisting that FW models are all completely balanced and fit for regular/competitive 40k when they've never been considered as such before, and treated more like an optional expansion than anything. More often than not the opposite has proven true, in fact the idea that some FW models are overpriced garbage is pretty damning proof that they aren't balanced, wouldn't you say? FW themselves, IIRC, have even come out and said that their rules aren't even really balanced. FW knows they aren't and that's why they've always been permission-based, because the guys writing FW's rules aren't part of the main studio, they don't talk to the game designers and they don't playtest these rules with them. As far as I'm concerned, what FW does is no different than one of us writing a fandex, except for the fact that FW is right next door and gets their fandexes printed in fancy hardcover, then sells them for $100 a pop. They're just enthusiasts who make a niche product for a niche hobby.

Also, I don't give a feth about trying to "prove" anything because whenever someone does post an example of a broken unit, it's fobbed off immediately like it's no big deal, or they do what you just did and list off a bunch of garbage saying "See? All FW is underpowered if anything, and you're crying about nothing!" For every unit I can think of that would potentially be broken in regular 40k (which I only judge based on what I hear/am told from others, because my money trees simply refuse to grow in this god-damned heat and I can't afford a full set of IA books), you guys will just look up and name off 3-4 gakky units from one of your random IA books and use that as "proof" that FW rules aren't game-breaking. Because you know, as long as the majority of the rules are gak that's really all that matters, one or two things being way better than they should couldn't possibly be unbalanced at all.

I know what you people want, you think that allowing Forge World is suddenly going to change the face of 40k, that people will stop running competitive armies and start running fluffy trash lists just because they can take FW models now, and that all the competitive gamers will flee like frightened rabbits and it'll be a casual gaming paradise, at long last. It won't. The broken and undercosted units will just find their way into all the competitive armies and you'll start getting your faces beat in with that from now on. Good job, so you gave a whole bunch of useless, expensive toys to casual players, and then opened up a whole treasure chest full of abusive goodness for the competitive players to take advantage of. This is a victory somehow? This is supposed to be more "fun", a game where the designers threw up their collective hands and said "feth it, ANYTHING GOES!"?

If you want FW to be "mainstream" in 40k, without completely fething breaking it, here's what would have to happen: GW would need to take control of FW, or at the very least, they need to take over the rules department and leave the model guys alone to do what they do best. Will that "fix" FW and make everything perfectly balanced? lol, feth no, but at LEAST the guys writing the rules would be in control of all the rules, and be able to playtest it all together and (hopefully) more thoroughly than FW does. FW rules at the moment aren't balanced, and can't be balanced, because they're not even being produced by the same fething studio. So give al the rules to the one studio and let them worry about trying to make it all fit into 40k, and stop letting the sculptors play game designer.

Now if that's what they planned to do the I'd be a lot happier about the news, but something tells that won't be how it goes down.

Steve steveson wrote:Yay! I can't wait to be able to use grot tanks and an assault ram without someone saying "you can't use FW without agreement" for no reason at all. The "by agreement of both players" bit is taken too far by many people, to the point of an assumption that you can't use them most of the time. Hopefully this will tip it the other way. I want me a loverly bone colour ram to go with my DW raider.

You think that's going to change? Instead of people refusing to play with FW rules, they'll just turn down the game altogether. lol, good going there, you still don't get to use your FW and now you don't get to play at all. : \

Steve steveson wrote:Yay! I can't wait to be able to use grot tanks and an assault ram without someone saying "you can't use FW without agreement" for no reason at all.

You actually expect that to happen, just because the books might get labelled as 'official'...?

Look around the forums at the number of people claiming they won't use the allies or fortifications rules in their games. And those are rules that are actually in the 6th edition rulebook. GW claiming that publications made by an off-shoot company are official won't have any more chance of changing people's minds if they're already made up that something is going to break the game.

Personnally, I am super happy because its going to allow to me to play my whole freaking (planned) army the way I want, using the right rules.

If my FLGS could order Forgeworld models the same way it gets direct-only items, I'd be thrilled. Getting a discount plus free shipping on Forgeworld stuff would make me very happy!

My club plays with Forgeworld stuff by default anyways, so from a gaming standpoint it doesn't make a huge difference to me.

This is good news for me. Good enough to get me back into the game. My army of choice are the Elysians and being able to play them legaly would be great.

Cannibal wrote:This is good news for me. Good enough to get me back into the game. My army of choice are the Elysians and being able to play them legaly would be great.

You can play them legally now and always have been able to.. you just need to ask first.

Well now he can't be denied, all the better, imo.

I'm not sure why you couldn't field Elysians with the regular Guard codex anyway, what do they have that isn't in there now? Vultures? That tauros or whatever it's called?

Bobthehero wrote:Well now he can't be denied, all the better, imo.

First of all, what do you mean now, nothing's happened yet. Second, he sure as hell can be, because I don't have to play a game with anyone if I don't want to, for any reason.

If he has FW and I really don't feel like playing against it, I can tell him "no" and he can't really do gak about it. Same thing if he were playing Space Marines and I was tired of fighting power armor.

Drop sentinel, special rules.

I also think the fears of a price increase to go with this aren't entirely unfounded, either. Setting up a new production facility here in the US would be the perfect excuse to raise prices, and then do it yearly after the fact like all their other crap.

Cannibal wrote:This is good news for me. Good enough to get me back into the game. My army of choice are the Elysians and being able to play them legaly would be great.

2 points:
1) Has anyone actually ever refused to play your Elysian force? I've been using FW bits and pieces (admittedly outside of tournaments, but at some events) since they were released. I have never had someone refuse to play me on that basis - as others have mentioned, the key is being conscientious and well mannered with your opponent, rather than chucking the model down on the board like it is your god-given right.
2) If anyone does do that, not only have you had a lucky escape as no doubt the game would have been crap, but also that other person needs their head examined
I would kill to be able to play against such an army, rather than the usual collection of unpainted GK or marines with no arms.

Cannibal wrote:This is good news for me. Good enough to get me back into the game. My army of choice are the Elysians and being able to play them legaly would be great.

If people were turning you down for games against your Elysians there's a good chance they weren't people worth playing with anyway. If this rumor is bunk (I hope it's true, just like you do) then you should still be able to talk out what your army does with any given person. If they're at all reasonable I can't think of any reason someone would say no.

Wow. I must read more on the FW rules. The two units I've played against were either so broke I couldn't win period, or fairly balanced for what it did. I haven't seen one so broke it was a piece of crap on the table. The Tomb Stalker is kind of scary the first time, but I can lessen it's impact and have even killed it with my Tau. The other thing I played against was some Imperial warmachine that ignored my fusion guns, and some damage results, and did a bunch of crazy movement/shooting tricks, that turned me off of Forgeworld(although it is possible he cheated).


A side note, I will play against most things once, and if it appears broke I will likely not try a second time.

You pro-FW types are the ones with the onus of proof on them, as far as I'm concerned, because you're the ones insisting that FW models are all completely balanced and fit for regular/competitive 40k when they've never been considered as such before, and treated more like an optional expansion than anything. More often than not the opposite has proven true, in fact the idea that some FW models are overpriced garbage is pretty damning proof that they aren't balanced, wouldn't you say? FW themselves, IIRC, have even come out and said that their rules aren't even really balanced. FW knows they aren't and that's why they've always been permission-based, because the guys writing FW's rules aren't part of the main studio, they don't talk to the game designers and they don't playtest these rules with them. As far as I'm concerned, what FW does is no different than one of us writing a fandex, except for the fact that FW is right next door and gets their fandexes printed in fancy hardcover, then sells them for $100 a pop. They're just enthusiasts who make a niche product for a niche hobby.

Sorry, but as you are the one who brought it up, you are the one's with the onus of proof set upon you, since technically by being the one to call this out, as the one bringing it up you are required to bring indisputable fact, since you either have to establish, or refute the factual issue. Thus it's technically on you to bring forth the overpowered bits.

The game designers themselves don't even play their dex's, have you played Any of the big three? Phil Kelly, Cruddance, Ward, all of them has put out complete at times.

The other thing I played against was some Imperial warmachine that ignored my fusion guns, and some damage results, and did a bunch of crazy movement/shooting tricks, that turned me off of Forgeworld(although it is possible he cheated).

Sounds like the Achilles, which isn't so scary anymore now that 4 glances can kill it's 300+ point cost...

I think I made a post months ago that I would only allow FW models as a replacement (count as) for an already existing model in a standard space marine codex.

I do not need the additional headaches in running a tournament. If the player is courteous enough to bring separate pages of the rules for the models in question so that that opponent (and TO's) can get a feel on what just that model can, and the model in question does not give an unfair advantage to his opponent do then I might consider that option.

But I have seen that type of consideration once in the 14+ years I've been running tournaments. This person brought in a beautiful Death Corps of Krieg army. Had copies of rules for his opponents to read. It was nothing that was wild and eye popping about his list. and I was quiet impressed with the young man's maturity (anyone 40 or younger is a young man to me). I allowed him in. He won best paint and best sportsmanship. Did a decent job in playing too.

Every one else in those 14+ years always had an angle to try to get something to give them that edge to play. That is of the reasons I currently run 1500 points or under tournaments. Keeps most of WAAC's players away and gives me the satisfaction of giving hundreds of dollars in cash prices away to those people who are competitive and yet wanting to have fun in a casual sense.

It comes down to me the abuse on how people use FW models. Seen it happen too many times in in the past to justify its use as what is written in the FW books for the tournaments I presently run in my region.

However. If I do find that kind of person(s) again like the one I posted above, I right reconsider.

I dunno.. usually when I hear someone wishing that something was legal, it usually means they wish they could spam it in a tournament.

Also, Space Marine and Guard FW vehicles and units seem to outnumber all combined Xenos additions by a good bit. I cannot possibly see how this benefits Xenos half as much as it does Imperium.

I'm not a fan of allowing forge world rules/models to become "mainstream". But honestly at this point, I don't feel like it would do much harm. Whatever amount of unbalancing FW stuff will bring to the table will probably pale in comparison to the unbalancing act brought on by allowing a second FOC at 2k points, and allowing the inclusion of allies. If GW wants to make the game crazy, why not just go all in?