Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
every job I've ever had was garbage, and the job I have now is garbage
there are very few things I enjoy in life, call me joyless and miserable because I am
life has shown its uglyness as did everything I once enjoyed
(for example I find the prospect of trying 6th ed daunting and exhausting as I would have to invest so much into it, money I worked very hard for, and it won`t bring me any joy
I donno what you would call a person who generally dislikes everyone he meets but I have been sliding down that path for a long time

Misanthrope?

I find the older I get, the more I am like this.

 Easy E wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
every job I've ever had was garbage, and the job I have now is garbage
there are very few things I enjoy in life, call me joyless and miserable because I am
life has shown its uglyness as did everything I once enjoyed
(for example I find the prospect of trying 6th ed daunting and exhausting as I would have to invest so much into it, money I worked very hard for, and it won`t bring me any joy
I donno what you would call a person who generally dislikes everyone he meets but I have been sliding down that path for a long time

Misanthrope?

I find the older I get, the more I am like this.

Things aren't what they used to be eh? Grandpa Simpson ramblings all round.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
every job I've ever had was garbage, and the job I have now is garbage
there are very few things I enjoy in life, call me joyless and miserable because I am
life has shown its uglyness as did everything I once enjoyed
(for example I find the prospect of trying 6th ed daunting and exhausting as I would have to invest so much into it, money I worked very hard for, and it won`t bring me any joy
I donno what you would call a person who generally dislikes everyone he meets but I have been sliding down that path for a long time

I used to have that same thought about the jobs I had back in the days of my youth, so maybe I can tell you something I wish I knew back when I was your age that works really well for me and gives me a great amount of job satisfaction.
Study lean manufacturing and job instruction, and job relations. You can pick up a lot of good information on the internet and I'd be happy to PM you some things I've learned through experience on improving your resume or at least point you in some directions to get the information.
More and more, people doing the hiring, at least around here, are impressed with someone that understands and can implement even a few of the concepts of lean manufacturing.
Put some of the lean techniques, such as 5s into practice around you apartment or house so you can really familiarize yourself with them and talk the jargon. Practice building a resume by recording before, during, and after states of your home improvements. You could practice making some PDCA sheets, complete with problem statements and solutions. I also reccomend a book, along with the workbook, "6Sigma for Dummies".
It seems a bit overwhelming at first, but if you learn and practice these skills and build your resume with evidence of how you have improved your places of employment, you'll most likely find you can right your own ticket eventually. I'm not saying there won't be setbacks, some people are entrenched in their methods, but when you start with small things and work up, most end up coming around. Just pick your battles
Like I said, I'd be happy to PM you and help you out if you're interested.

I'm an upbeat person with possibly a bit more self esteem than is good for me.

I'll be going to college next year to study on becoming an aerospace engineer with hopes to work in the private space industry. I see no reason to be depressed or downtrodden, and I quite frankly don't see why some people around me find life to be such a depressing thing. Life isgreat. There are all kinds of opportunities out there, if you start early. If you blow off your high school years I'd imagine things will be much more difficult.

Sure, I fething HATE high school just as much as anyone else, and any and all attempts at asking le females out so far have resulted in a friendzone, but I try not to let crap like that bother me. And there is always Skyrim if I want to escape for a bit. Really, people need to set goals in their life and pursue them, and don't get lost along the way or you will regret it. I say life is the best accident to have happened in the history of the universe. And yes, I do in fact mean accident, as in random occurence with no purpose whatsoever. Make your own damn purpose.

Sorry if I sound a bit arrogant. It's probably because I am a little bit.

If you can't deal with reality don't bother reading this, but it's important knowledge for someone who is quickly running out of options.



@GalacticDefender: Noone cares about high school. At all. And if you're getting friend zoned there are things you can do to fix it. A woman usually knows within a minute or two whether she'd date you or not, and it's your job to appear dateable and not just friendable.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
every job I've ever had was garbage, and the job I have now is garbage

What is the common thread between all these things?

Also, on an unrelated note, lying on your resume is terrible advice.

 Monster Rain wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
every job I've ever had was garbage, and the job I have now is garbage

What is the common thread between all these things?

Also, on an unrelated note, lying on your resume is terrible advice.

Note that I said "for someone with no other hope." I.e. when I was homeless and unemployed, lying that I had been working the whole time was the best advice ever.

While I wouldn't agree with lying, there is cause for, shall we say 'misrepresenting reality.'

It's a funny old world this job application thing, as far as I can see, noone wants, or expects the whole truth. So if you end up giving it, I've got the suspicion that people think you're exaggerating, because everyone exaggerates, so they think you're worse than you are!

Also, tying into the depression thing with jobs, it's amazing how often I find, the most pointless, crappyass things you do just to get by end up being seen as really awesome.

For example, one of the tiny wee, unimportant things I do, that I never thought anyone in the 'real world' would ever care about (except as a reason NOT to date me), was my work as a kind of moderator type person on a wee online game.

But, when writing my CV, I went 'oh frak it' and mentioned it in my resume/CV. It turned out to be massively important in an interview for an itservices / itsupport job I applied for because as I talked, the skills required ended up being pretty much the same sort of thing.


Incidently, 'oh frak it' seems to have been my personal medicine for any depression type situationss I've had in my life so far. Cause, when I've found myself getting low, I sometimes almost find my brain at a 'what is the point' etc etc depression-ey stuff. And "oh frak it, I'll do something out of character for me" seems to be a way round it. Admittedly, the most exciting thing I've done with that, is going for a random walk to a nearby village but it was out of character!

GalacticDefender wrote:Sure, I fething HATE high school just as much as anyone else, and any and all attempts at asking le females out so far have resulted in a friendzone, but I try not to let crap like that bother me. And there is always Skyrim if I want to escape for a bit. Really, people need to set goals in their life and pursue them, and don't get lost along the way or you will regret it. I say life is the best accident to have happened in the history of the universe. And yes, I do in fact mean accident, as in random occurence with no purpose whatsoever. Make your own damn purpose.

Sorry if I sound a bit arrogant. It's probably because I am a little bit.

Every time you get friendzoned... you made a friend. It ain't all bad.

@Compel: Exaggerating is both a given and a completely different animal I didn't stock groceries, I oversaw completion of tasks with short term deadlines on a consistent basis with a 100% success rate. I didn't flip burgers, I have experience working in environment-controlled clean areas (told one of my friends that one and he landed a job as a lab tech grunt having only had food service experience! I was proud). It's the name of the game.

@LL: That's a defeatist attitude, sir! Just because something seems foreign doesn't mean it's impossible. Change is not a bad thing, and the social habits of many in the nerd community could certainly benefit greatly from it if they could lose their fear.

Besides most people people who are "friend-zoned" are going to end up having an unhealthy friendship anyways, since one half of the relationship is going to feel like there needs aren't being met.

 Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:
If you can't deal with reality don't bother reading this, but it's important knowledge for someone who is quickly running out of options.

Spoiler:

Practical tip: if you have no hope of a better future, lie on your resume. I'm not joking. It's not ethical, but neither is 99% of what employers are going to do to you when they start losing money. If the worst that can happen is you getting fired when they find out later, at least you had a job for a while and you can always lie about having lied later. It's a beautiful, natural cycle. This mainly applies to low end jobs that don't bother checking your credentials that thoroughly.

Always double check to make sure it's not illegal where you are or for what you are doing (basically that it's not worth pursuing damages), but lots of people get away with this all the time and it's better than being depressed.

@GalacticDefender: Noone cares about high school. At all. And if you're getting friend zoned there are things you can do to fix it. A woman usually knows within a minute or two whether she'd date you or not, and it's your job to appear dateable and not just friendable.

Oh, I care very much about High School, or rather the impact that it will have on my college education. Just because I have a 4.2 and am in several school clubs (Academic Competition in Education, etc.) doesn't mean I like school. The only part of school that is actually fun is Band, and that is only fun about half the time.

And on the second part of that comment... Bull crap. I've tried everything . I'm thinking I should probably give up until college. I don't know what the feth it is, heck, I get girls telling me I'm handsome and such all the time, and even what I percieve as outright flirting, but they never want to be anything more than a friend. Ah well. C'est La Vie

PM me if you desire to see the cycle broken. This is something I actually know about.

 Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:
@Compel: Exaggerating is both a given and a completely different animal I didn't stock groceries, I oversaw completion of tasks with short term deadlines on a consistent basis with a 100% success rate. I didn't flip burgers, I have experience working in environment-controlled clean areas (told one of my friends that one and he landed a job as a lab tech grunt having only had food service experience! I was proud). It's the name of the game.

@LL: That's a defeatist attitude, sir! Just because something seems foreign doesn't mean it's impossible. Change is not a bad thing, and the social habits of many in the nerd community could certainly benefit greatly from it if they could lose their fear.

It's actually a good accomplishment you have there to be able to stock groceries competently and work in a burger joint like you did. The first point being that you have the ability to stick to a grinding task and maintain standard work. The second being the experience you get in a lean work enviornment like the burger joint. Being able to maintain standard work like you must have had to have do is huge for employers who hate having the same job done as many ways as they have employees.
Standard work is one of the roots of continuous improvement and any business wanting to keep its doors open is definitely interested in that and the people who can maintain it.

 LoneLictor wrote:

GalacticDefender wrote:Sure, I fething HATE high school just as much as anyone else, and any and all attempts at asking le females out so far have resulted in a friendzone, but I try not to let crap like that bother me. And there is always Skyrim if I want to escape for a bit. Really, people need to set goals in their life and pursue them, and don't get lost along the way or you will regret it. I say life is the best accident to have happened in the history of the universe. And yes, I do in fact mean accident, as in random occurence with no purpose whatsoever. Make your own damn purpose.

Sorry if I sound a bit arrogant. It's probably because I am a little bit.

Every time you get friendzoned... you made a friend. It ain't all bad.

no you now have someone who only comes to you when they are upset and vents, when happy, they avoid you

thats not friendship, and if it is, well I am glad I avoid it in my adult years

Relapse wrote:

It's actually a good accomplishment you have there to be able to stock groceries competently and work in a burger joint like you did. The first point being that you have the ability to stick to a grinding task and maintain standard work. The second being the experience you get in a lean work enviornment like the burger joint. Being able to maintain standard work like you must have had to have do is huge for employers who hate having the same job done as many ways as they have employees.
Standard work is one of the roots of continuous improvement and any business wanting to keep its doors open is definitely interested in that and the people who can maintain it.

I've never actually flipped burgers, just giving an example It certainly is a benefit to show long-term, consistent employment though. My point was that you can take experience and make it sound mundane and trivial or turn it into something exciting and applicable. Let's say someone had to change prices on items while working at a grocery store every once in a while. They could reference that in applying towards an entry level data entry/database management job as maintaining price accuracy on 2000+ items instead. It's all in how you spin it, really.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

GalacticDefender wrote:Sure, I fething HATE high school just as much as anyone else, and any and all attempts at asking le females out so far have resulted in a friendzone, but I try not to let crap like that bother me. And there is always Skyrim if I want to escape for a bit. Really, people need to set goals in their life and pursue them, and don't get lost along the way or you will regret it. I say life is the best accident to have happened in the history of the universe. And yes, I do in fact mean accident, as in random occurence with no purpose whatsoever. Make your own damn purpose.

Sorry if I sound a bit arrogant. It's probably because I am a little bit.

Every time you get friendzoned... you made a friend. It ain't all bad.

no you now have someone who only comes to you when they are upset and vents, when happy, they avoid you

thats not friendship, and if it is, well I am glad I avoid it in my adult years

Why would you even use the term friendzone if you were never even friends?

Ehhh.... teenagers.

This thing where people assume unemployment is due to be lazy or not wanting a job is a stupid, stupid thing. Here's a graph showing unemployment in the US and UK;


See how the unemployment rate goes up and down? That's because the level of economic activity varies from year to year, meaning that at some points in time, like now for instance, it can be quite hard to get a job, and meaning some folk will be out of work despite putting in efforts that at another time would have seen them get work very quickly.

It isn't because the number of people who happen to be shiftless and lazy fluctuates from year to year. That's crazy pants nonsense talk.

As such, claims that people ought to stop being lazy and just get a job becomes, basically, gibberish uttered by people who don't understand how the world works.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

GalacticDefender wrote:Sure, I fething HATE high school just as much as anyone else, and any and all attempts at asking le females out so far have resulted in a friendzone, but I try not to let crap like that bother me. And there is always Skyrim if I want to escape for a bit. Really, people need to set goals in their life and pursue them, and don't get lost along the way or you will regret it. I say life is the best accident to have happened in the history of the universe. And yes, I do in fact mean accident, as in random occurence with no purpose whatsoever. Make your own damn purpose.

Sorry if I sound a bit arrogant. It's probably because I am a little bit.

Every time you get friendzoned... you made a friend. It ain't all bad.

no you now have someone who only comes to you when they are upset and vents, when happy, they avoid you

thats not friendship, and if it is, well I am glad I avoid it in my adult years

That's free psychotherapy and frankly I started to charge for that service.

 LoneLictor wrote:

GalacticDefender wrote:Sure, I fething HATE high school just as much as anyone else, and any and all attempts at asking le females out so far have resulted in a friendzone, but I try not to let crap like that bother me. And there is always Skyrim if I want to escape for a bit. Really, people need to set goals in their life and pursue them, and don't get lost along the way or you will regret it. I say life is the best accident to have happened in the history of the universe. And yes, I do in fact mean accident, as in random occurence with no purpose whatsoever. Make your own damn purpose.

Sorry if I sound a bit arrogant. It's probably because I am a little bit.

Every time you get friendzoned... you made a friend. It ain't all bad.

And.. Depending on the type of friend you have, they may be the most marriageable person around, and eventually they will see more good in you than before and take up that "dating" interest in you...


This coming from a guy who spent most of high school in the friendzone as well, but ended up marrying a girl who put him in the friend zone, but quickly realized that he wasn't like the other "friends" that she had, etc. etc. High School should never be about dating girls or any of the other outside BS we think it's about when we're in there... it's about getting the life skills necessary to succeed in life.

So, if you are in HS (or it's foreign equivalent for those of you across the ponds from us) and find yourself always getting put into the friendzone, don't fret right now, once you're out of school, those few friends that you do keep will usually become better friends, and occasionally someone who put you in friendzone status will re-evaluate you and wish to pursue further relations with you.

 sebster wrote:
It isn't because the number of people who happen to be shiftless and lazy fluctuates from year to year. That's crazy pants nonsense talk.

As such, claims that people ought to stop being lazy and just get a job becomes, basically, gibberish uttered by people who don't understand how the world works.

Yes, but...

it is much easier to believe in gibberish and more it's fun!

 Easy E wrote:

 sebster wrote:
It isn't because the number of people who happen to be shiftless and lazy fluctuates from year to year. That's crazy pants nonsense talk.

As such, claims that people ought to stop being lazy and just get a job becomes, basically, gibberish uttered by people who don't understand how the world works.

Yes, but...

it is much easier to believe in gibberish and more it's fun!

I know a lot of people who had some of the best times in their lives in high school. It makes sense that when your hormones are peaked out that certain things will be more fun than later in life. Social skills never hurt later in life either. I was lame in high school and I regret it, personally.

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

GalacticDefender wrote:Sure, I fething HATE high school just as much as anyone else, and any and all attempts at asking le females out so far have resulted in a friendzone, but I try not to let crap like that bother me. And there is always Skyrim if I want to escape for a bit. Really, people need to set goals in their life and pursue them, and don't get lost along the way or you will regret it. I say life is the best accident to have happened in the history of the universe. And yes, I do in fact mean accident, as in random occurence with no purpose whatsoever. Make your own damn purpose.

Sorry if I sound a bit arrogant. It's probably because I am a little bit.

Every time you get friendzoned... you made a friend. It ain't all bad.

no you now have someone who only comes to you when they are upset and vents, when happy, they avoid you

thats not friendship, and if it is, well I am glad I avoid it in my adult years

Why would you even use the term friendzone if you were never even friends?

Ehhh.... teenagers.

yeah so 24 is a teenager now?
I didn't invent the damn term, people always act like I invent these damn terms

It's not easy for younger people at the moment because of the unemployment rate. I was unemployed for a good chunk of 2008 despite a pretty good education and having been in work since I was 15 in one way or another. I was pretty depressed at the time, definitely felt useless and like a sponge.

The only thing that saved me, long term, was being willing to emigrate to where long term work is. When I left for England I had barely any money (couldn't afford to buy new shoes for work or even replacement glasses because I'd broken mine until I got my first paycheque! Spent the first month looking at chav-shaped blurs, very entertaining).

Even at that though, I was much luckier than many of my friends at home because I had a skill that was in demand abroad, and I had at least enough of a fallback to be able to afford (barely) the flights to the UK to be interviewed. I mean, I got them refunded when I took the job, but having that capital to hand is a huge deal for a lot of people (I had to get a loan out to manage it, but even there, I was helped by my dad's membership in the credit union and respectable position as a policeman. Not everyone will have these advantages).

The other secret is that pretty much every job sucks in some way or other, and making peace with the sucky parts of your job is the best route to not hating your life for ever. They don't really pay people for anything that someone would happily do for free, most of the time.

I don't think young people at present are well prepared for this kind of struggle. I wasn't, everything was very optimistic in boomtime ireland and I didn't always focus on what would make me employable (I studied ecology in parallel with experimental physics. Real employable there, Boss). Many of us get told to pursue our dreams and what will make us happy, but in reality pursuing a stable and comfortable existence is smarter advice for most people. Dreams are for bed time.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

GalacticDefender wrote:Sure, I fething HATE high school just as much as anyone else, and any and all attempts at asking le females out so far have resulted in a friendzone, but I try not to let crap like that bother me. And there is always Skyrim if I want to escape for a bit. Really, people need to set goals in their life and pursue them, and don't get lost along the way or you will regret it. I say life is the best accident to have happened in the history of the universe. And yes, I do in fact mean accident, as in random occurence with no purpose whatsoever. Make your own damn purpose.

Sorry if I sound a bit arrogant. It's probably because I am a little bit.

Every time you get friendzoned... you made a friend. It ain't all bad.

And.. Depending on the type of friend you have, they may be the most marriageable person around, and eventually they will see more good in you than before and take up that "dating" interest in you...


This coming from a guy who spent most of high school in the friendzone as well, but ended up marrying a girl who put him in the friend zone, but quickly realized that he wasn't like the other "friends" that she had, etc. etc. High School should never be about dating girls or any of the other outside BS we think it's about when we're in there... it's about getting the life skills necessary to succeed in life.

That dating bs you complained about can be important in the development of social skills.

 Da Boss wrote:
It's not easy for younger people at the moment because of the unemployment rate. I was unemployed for a good chunk of 2008 despite a pretty good education and having been in work since I was 15 in one way or another. I was pretty depressed at the time, definitely felt useless and like a sponge.

The only thing that saved me, long term, was being willing to emigrate to where long term work is. When I left for England I had barely any money (couldn't afford to buy new shoes for work or even replacement glasses because I'd broken mine until I got my first paycheque! Spent the first month looking at chav-shaped blurs, very entertaining).

Even at that though, I was much luckier than many of my friends at home because I had a skill that was in demand abroad, and I had at least enough of a fallback to be able to afford (barely) the flights to the UK to be interviewed. I mean, I got them refunded when I took the job, but having that capital to hand is a huge deal for a lot of people (I had to get a loan out to manage it, but even there, I was helped by my dad's membership in the credit union and respectable position as a policeman. Not everyone will have these advantages).

The other secret is that pretty much every job sucks in some way or other, and making peace with the sucky parts of your job is the best route to not hating your life for ever. They don't really pay people for anything that someone would happily do for free, most of the time.

I don't think young people at present are well prepared for this kind of struggle. I wasn't, everything was very optimistic in boomtime ireland and I didn't always focus on what would make me employable (I studied ecology in parallel with experimental physics. Real employable there, Boss). Many of us get told to pursue our dreams and what will make us happy, but in reality pursuing a stable and comfortable existence is smarter advice for most people. Dreams are for bed time.

I think youth have a moan about jobs/work no matter what the current economic outlook. There will always appear to be some 'difficulty' in getting work.

I do, somewhat, agree that our culture has us following dreams. But that is a product of the media and businesses need for mass consumption. Special Snowflakes need their MTV crib, fridge of cristal and appearance on X Factor.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

I think youth have a moan about jobs/work no matter what the current economic outlook. There will always appear to be some 'difficulty' in getting work.

I do, somewhat, agree that our culture has us following dreams. But that is a product of the media and businesses need for mass consumption. Special Snowflakes need their MTV crib, fridge of cristal and appearance on X Factor.

So it's not actually hard to get a job then and every young adult is obsessed with MTV?

 Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

I think youth have a moan about jobs/work no matter what the current economic outlook. There will always appear to be some 'difficulty' in getting work.

I do, somewhat, agree that our culture has us following dreams. But that is a product of the media and businesses need for mass consumption. Special Snowflakes need their MTV crib, fridge of cristal and appearance on X Factor.

So it's not actually hard to get a job then and every young adult is obsessed with MTV?

Didn't you know? This generation is waaaay worse than any other ever. No one was ever coddled or interested in popular culture before this generation. Rabble rabble insert Jersey Shore comment rabble rabble.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

GalacticDefender wrote:Sure, I fething HATE high school just as much as anyone else, and any and all attempts at asking le females out so far have resulted in a friendzone, but I try not to let crap like that bother me. And there is always Skyrim if I want to escape for a bit. Really, people need to set goals in their life and pursue them, and don't get lost along the way or you will regret it. I say life is the best accident to have happened in the history of the universe. And yes, I do in fact mean accident, as in random occurence with no purpose whatsoever. Make your own damn purpose.

Sorry if I sound a bit arrogant. It's probably because I am a little bit.

Every time you get friendzoned... you made a friend. It ain't all bad.

And.. Depending on the type of friend you have, they may be the most marriageable person around, and eventually they will see more good in you than before and take up that "dating" interest in you...


This coming from a guy who spent most of high school in the friendzone as well, but ended up marrying a girl who put him in the friend zone, but quickly realized that he wasn't like the other "friends" that she had, etc. etc. High School should never be about dating girls or any of the other outside BS we think it's about when we're in there... it's about getting the life skills necessary to succeed in life.

So, if you are in HS (or it's foreign equivalent for those of you across the ponds from us) and find yourself always getting put into the friendzone, don't fret right now, once you're out of school, those few friends that you do keep will usually become better friends, and occasionally someone who put you in friendzone status will re-evaluate you and wish to pursue further relations with you.

I am quite aware that high school is not about any of those things. In fact I am highly considering giving up on trying to start a high school relationship now as I will be going to college out of state and I haven't seen much succes in that area. And no, I don't think it is about getting the life skills necessary for life either, or at least it is not successfull. Good grades and school participation look good on college applications and make it easier to get scholarships, and that is the only reason why I put up with it. That and Band is fun.

I guess I can see how high school could depress people who don't have any real aspirations or clearly defined goals, but I've already started planning my future, so even the stupidest thing that happens in school, I know they will pass and be an annoying memory someday. I can't fething wait for college. Though I won't be too surprised if it isn't much different. At least there will be fewer rednecks.

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:

 Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

I think youth have a moan about jobs/work no matter what the current economic outlook. There will always appear to be some 'difficulty' in getting work.

I do, somewhat, agree that our culture has us following dreams. But that is a product of the media and businesses need for mass consumption. Special Snowflakes need their MTV crib, fridge of cristal and appearance on X Factor.

So it's not actually hard to get a job then and every young adult is obsessed with MTV?

Didn't you know? This generation is waaaay worse than any other ever. No one was ever coddled or interested in popular culture before this generation. Rabble rabble insert Jersey Shore comment rabble rabble.

It's less of the coddle and hands being held, and more of the fact that our economy sucks, our job market is crap, and people are leaving college with enough debt to saddle them for a lifetime....