Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There doesn't need to be any evidence, it will work. When a company is as apparently closed off to feedback as they appear to be, it is categorically the only method that the consumer can employ.

When the fuel prices began to spiral, boycotts of fuel stations were organised here in the UK. Now in financial terms it probably made little impact, but it did send the message that consumers weren't happy.

Okay, so there doesn't need to be evidence and you give an example where it didn't work...

Actually didn't finish my thought there.

It did work, in the short term the government modified fuel duty rises, the supermarkets started using it as a competitive lever against each other and fuel prices did go down.

Long term it had less of an impact, but it did work to a degree, and it certainly very successfully communicated consumer dissatisfaction to the relevant organisations.

I suspect that would be the best outcome of any protest against GW though, short term placation followed by long term no difference at all.

 pretre wrote:

BrassScorpion wrote: When the Warhammer Fortress introduced many years ago in the mid-1990s did not sell virtually at all at $110 US they dropped the price to $80 after 2 years. They also sold some of them at half price at a store sale (I bought one for $40!) to get the stock down back in the glory days when they had sales.

True. Come to think of it, I believe Dreadfleet got recalled for not selling well, right?

Yup, I was in GW when they got that email, apparently having more then 2 out showed it wasnt selling and negatively impacted the company and that its removal would not to be spoken of. As far as I know they were told to just throw them in a dumpster far away from the store.

Hmm. So that actually proves that they can be convinced of things by lack of sales....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They won't take the right action, but...

 pretre wrote:
Hmm. So that actually proves that they can be convinced of things by lack of sales....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They won't take the right action, but...

They may have been convinced of something, but was it the message to consumer wanted to send

this specialist game is no fun &/or too expensive, make something better and/or cheaper

What GW heard was

We hate ALL the specialist games equally, stop making or supporting them and do your best to kick them out of your stores

so be carefull what message you try to send, GW may hear something different

My view of GW these days?

We don't get what we want. We get what we will put up with.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Like how GW thinks that its perfectly reasonable for me to go get a $700 ipad, then pay $5.99 for the flyer rules, just so I have access to the dakkajet rules. I bet that goes really well when little timmy explains that to his mom when he wants to his DakkaJet.

GW doesn't expect you to purchase an iPad just to get the rules for the DakkaJet, the digital products are there for people that already have an iPad. I like how you chose one of the highest prices possible for an iPad to illustrate your point. They can be found much cheaper than that, especially if you go with the previous model.

 undertow wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Like how GW thinks that its perfectly reasonable for me to go get a $700 ipad, then pay $5.99 for the flyer rules, just so I have access to the dakkajet rules. I bet that goes really well when little timmy explains that to his mom when he wants to his DakkaJet.

GW doesn't expect you to purchase an iPad just to get the rules for the DakkaJet, the digital products are there for people that already have an iPad. I like how you chose one of the highest prices possible for an iPad to illustrate your point. They can be found much cheaper than that, especially if you go with the previous model.

What's your solution for anyone who would like to field a Dakkajet and can't afford/does not wish to buy any sort of ipad? Or merely doesn't want yet another thing to have to cart with them to their club/shop?

Given how much they charge for Sisters of Battle models, it's the least they could do to make the rules freely available.

 azreal13 wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Like how GW thinks that its perfectly reasonable for me to go get a $700 ipad, then pay $5.99 for the flyer rules, just so I have access to the dakkajet rules. I bet that goes really well when little timmy explains that to his mom when he wants to his DakkaJet.

GW doesn't expect you to purchase an iPad just to get the rules for the DakkaJet, the digital products are there for people that already have an iPad. I like how you chose one of the highest prices possible for an iPad to illustrate your point. They can be found much cheaper than that, especially if you go with the previous model.

What's your solution for anyone who would like to field a Dakkajet and can't afford/does not wish to buy any sort of ipad? Or merely doesn't want yet another thing to have to cart with them to their club/shop?

Don't buy a Dakkajet to show your dissatisfaction with the way they released the Dakkajet and its rules. Only lack of sales will change behavior. Buying 3 Dakkajets, crying about the rules not being available does nothing to make GW change as they got your money.

If SOB and WD flyers sales were non-existent, I suspect a PDF would appear ont he website really quick with probably 10 days of hobby pages highlighting the kits.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Hmm. So that actually proves that they can be convinced of things by lack of sales....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They won't take the right action, but...

They may have been convinced of something, but was it the message to consumer wanted to send

this specialist game is no fun &/or too expensive, make something better and/or cheaper

What GW heard was

We hate ALL the specialist games equally, stop making or supporting them and do your best to kick them out of your stores

so be carefull what message you try to send, GW may hear something different

I heard some years ago, from a source I absolutely believe, that at one point all of the Specialist Games were going to be withdrawn, not only from the shop floor, but from sale (rules, miniatures, everything) - completely!

Then Jervis Johnson stepped in and offered to take all of the games lines under his wing, organise them and keep them updated/maintained, along with his other duties at the company (he wasn't being paid extra for doing do). So, perhaps one of the biggest reasons he is a top bloke, and we should be thankful that at least one of the old guard has managed to stay within the company.

 undertow wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Like how GW thinks that its perfectly reasonable for me to go get a $700 ipad, then pay $5.99 for the flyer rules, just so I have access to the dakkajet rules. I bet that goes really well when little timmy explains that to his mom when he wants to his DakkaJet.

GW doesn't expect you to purchase an iPad just to get the rules for the DakkaJet, the digital products are there for people that already have an iPad. I like how you chose one of the highest prices possible for an iPad to illustrate your point. They can be found much cheaper than that, especially if you go with the previous model.

So I dont own that white dwarf with the dakkajet rules and you're telling me I should go hunt down a cheaper ipad? Thats GW logic right there. I want to buy and use the model, I already own the ork codex, but I need to pay $100+ for the privilege? Its not like they have a long standing history of putting out PDFs on their website for free, oh wait.

Oh and Im sorry, I'll fix my previous statement to "starting from" $329, like that makes it any better.

nkelsch wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Like how GW thinks that its perfectly reasonable for me to go get a $700 ipad, then pay $5.99 for the flyer rules, just so I have access to the dakkajet rules. I bet that goes really well when little timmy explains that to his mom when he wants to his DakkaJet.

GW doesn't expect you to purchase an iPad just to get the rules for the DakkaJet, the digital products are there for people that already have an iPad. I like how you chose one of the highest prices possible for an iPad to illustrate your point. They can be found much cheaper than that, especially if you go with the previous model.

What's your solution for anyone who would like to field a Dakkajet and can't afford/does not wish to buy any sort of ipad? Or merely doesn't want yet another thing to have to cart with them to their club/shop?

Don't buy a Dakkajet to show your dissatisfaction with the way they released the Dakkajet and its rules. Only lack of sales will change behavior. Buying 3 Dakkajets, crying about the rules not being available does nothing to make GW change as they got your money.

If SOB and WD flyers sales were non-existent, I suspect a PDF would appear ont he website really quick with probably 10 days of hobby pages highlighting the kits.

Ok, I'll take that as a viable solution for the informed, mature gamer. Even if I suspect that this plan won't survive first contact in the real world.

What about those that aren't so well informed? Those that innocently buy, or worse yet are actively sold, one of these kits unaware the rules are so hard to come by? I'm already aware of non-GK or BA players being told that it was 'fine' to buy a Stormraven for their Marine armies. So obviously GW staff aren't above selling inappropriate kits to people in some cases already.

 chris_valera wrote:


I feel really bad for the people who took GW at their word that the new WD would

I was one of those people. When WD come out on the iPad (yes, I own one) I bought that first issue. It looked good, seemed to have decent content and I figured it was worth the $60 (discounted) that I paid. The next 3 issues however were a steady downhill slope.

What I wanted out of WD:
Good painting articles with solid images.
Examples of game mechanics or proper unit usage through action reports.
Rule expansions, such as fighting on a code or hot world etc.

However, all of those failed to happen.

The "painting" articles show small thumbnail images that you can't zoom in on. Further, there are numerous places where the pictures simply don't show the paint that the step says is on there. I asked them about that once; their reply was that they couldn't see it either and that the pictures / step list was supplied by the "artist"... I guess the editor couldn't be bothered to look at what was submitted to see how jacked up it was.

I also asked why you couldn't zoom; their reply was that the magazine was already too large and they wanted to cut things out not add more to it. I suggested cutting parts of the product catalog (I can get that online) or even just dropping the LoTR info as nobody cared about that anyway. But that email was ignored <- That's not entirely true.... rather than ignoring it they did a full magazine devoted to the Hobbit.

It gets worse: the models for the "paint guides" in the latest mag looked like they were painted and photographed by amateurs. I know because I'm an amateur and I can paint better than most of those. I wouldn't bother calling myself an amateur photographer, I take maybe one picture a month... using my phone. But the lighting issues between steps just floor me. So, where is this vaunted 'Eavy Metal team at? Apparently they aren't painting models for the magazine and the pictures on the main site haven't exactly been updated in a long time, so... do they even have a 'Eavy Metal team?

The action reports have been featuring an increasing disregard for the rules. Rather than actually talking about what happened and why they've devolved into childish pregame posturing and post game celebratory videos. Which would be fine if they bothered to go into any level of detail on what happened. It's like they don't even want to bother trying to play the game. Beyond that they certainly don't even try to explain the purpose of the various units in the army. This area is a PERFECT opportunity to clear up known rule problems in a real setting and instead the opportunity is completely wasted.

The last thing I wanted was rule expansions. I didn't want to count on them to publish it in the codexes (yes, I bought the digital ones) in a reasonable time and I certainly didn't want to miss getting a paper copy. So, if they have no plans to put rules in WD anymore, then my last reason for reading WD evaporated.

nkelsch wrote:
The issue is people complain about GW but still support them in droves by buying stuff. The only way GW will change is for people to walk away. Pirating doesn't prove to them their model,is bad, you still buy the models, and they still make a product you are consuming even illegally.

If a company makes it hard or impossible to purchase their product you simply do without and walk away. Don't consume it. Don't buy the rules, don't use the rules, don't buy the models, just walk away. Give your money to someone who operates In a way to get your business. Don't break the law and your integrity to fall over yourself to continue giving Gw your money, especially when they don't care about you.

Continuing to buy the plastic crack and complain about it doesn't encourage change... And Gw doesn't sell stock with every model, so owning their product gives you zero ownership in the company as much as customers seem to feel like they always deserve to be catered to.

Here's the problem with the whole "hit em where it hurts" approach; They've been losing customers and sales volume for 10 years and their reaction to that is... *drum roll* Raise prices, cut support and dick people around

 Ravenous D wrote:


Here's the problem with the whole "hit em where it hurts" approach; They've been losing customers and sales volume for 10 years and their reaction to that is... *drum roll* Raise prices, cut support and dick people around

But if you don't buy and have moved on to something else... who cares?

If you continue to buy you are like a diabetic with a candy bar who would rather lose a foot than stop eating candybars with the demand that they make candy bars sugar free... The company won't listen while you still buy their product in droves... If the entire market was to make a shift for better foods and stop buying them, then maybe you would see a change in product line to accommodate the customer's needs.

Addicted people are incapable of 'not consuming' which is why they complain and are upset when their complaints are not heard because people assume their attitude is the defacto default majority and should be catered to. People are incapable of 'going without' in this community, so I expect zero change from complaints alone...

given all the extra functionality of an iPad, i don't understand this argument about only buying an iPad to read GW products...
you can play fun video games, surf the net, email, watch movies, listen to music, AND have cool interactive ebooks, along with a whole lot more...
the touch screen is awesome, an it's a lot more portable than a laptop, while being much bigger than a cellphone (better to see the pretty pictures)...
why do most posters seem to miss, or not care, that the iPad is so much more than an ereader???

i do think the change to publishing less copies of WD was a big miss...
it used to be you could get back issues, and every store had ample copies each month...
a monthly mag should not be limited edition, especially with rules in them...
that is definitely screwing the customers, and losing sales...

personally, i have enjoyed all four digital issue (i finally broke down and bought the Hobbit one)...
Blanchitsu has been great, going so far as to include works originally seen here on Dakka from a couple of our boys...
the Golden Demon showcase was awesome...
the Terrain board spotlights are beautiful...
Forgeworld previews are a treat...
The Rivals is a fun read...
the army spotlights are cool...
plus, it a few bucks cheaper than the print mag....

all in all, i feel like i get my $8 bucks worth...
especially since i can flip through anywhere, even without internet access, which is hit or miss in Mexico...

i'm all for them putting the PDF's on the website...
i just don't buy the "iPad just for GW product" argument...
GW products are just the icing on the cake when you have an iPad...

cheers
jah

No reason to buy WD now. Period.

nkelsch wrote:
Not sure how many times you have to get a fly in your soup before you simply eat at a different restaurant. People complain that they want a cleaner restaurant, but continue to come there and pay for soup. We all know the restaurant should be cleaner, but why should they when they still make money and have customers?

Complaining does nothing. Stopping the flow of money from your wallet to their pocket is the only way. You actually have to take your business elsewhere and 'go without' no matter how much you want their product.

This just sounds like a variation of the "If you don't like GW, stop playing 40K" fallacy.

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
I concur
The Sisters rules made people happy.
The Ork flier rules made people happy.
The extra daemon update made people happy.

Why stop that?

Panic...

To make people unhappy?

I also liked the WD rule updates.

I dare say that WD rules were the ONLY thing I liked about it.

pretre wrote:I understand that 'hit them in the pocketbook' is the conventional wisdom, but do we have any anecdotal evidence that that has ever worked?

The annual business reports show evidence of the contrary

nkelsch wrote:Boycotts are bs. Especially in GW's market where they expect customers to go long periods of time between purchasing. I collect orks so unless GW releases an ORK model, I really have nothing to buy. My lack of buying may not actually represent *anything* wrong to them. If they release new stuff for my army, it will be spending spree.

Such a 24 hour boycott does nothing. Even a month boycot does nothing,e specially since people splurge and fast already with the way they purchase models.

We will see how the ongoing Hobbit boycott is doing: Still hge piles of "limited edtion" boxes to sell.
And I will be surprised if the new Codex prices plus obscene Terminator/Speeder/Talon price increases will not have serious negative impact on sales and people starting an army.

 Kroothawk wrote:
And I will be surprised if the new Codex prices plus obscene Terminator/Speeder/Talon price increases will not have serious negative impact on sales and people starting an army.

I could not agree more. I was seriously considering starting DA as my second army, after two years with Orks. Then I saw the prices and just started laughing.
I'm 41, my career pays well, and I could afford it, but I'll be damned if I'm paying those prices.
I still have my gaming money in my pocket because a $75 flyer is far outside my value system.

 Kroothawk wrote:

We will see how the ongoing Hobbit boycott is doing: Still hge piles of "limited edtion" boxes to sell.
And I will be surprised if the new Codex prices plus obscene Terminator/Speeder/Talon price increases will not have serious negative impact on sales and people starting an army.

That isn't a Boycott... that is just a product no one wants for a price no one will pay, it is just an unwanted gakky product, like Dreadfleet. A Boycott implies that people really do want the product but are refusing to buy for some other issue.

Either way, lack of sales is what causes people to change decisions, like recalls, price drops or other restructuring. I hope they do drop all the prices on hobbit stuff, and if they do... guess what? It shows the only way GW responds is terrible sales numbers.

 Kroothawk wrote:
And I will be surprised if the new Codex prices plus obscene Terminator/Speeder/Talon price increases will not have serious negative impact on sales and people starting an army.

Against my better judgement, I'm starting an army again (DA too much of a lure), but does any sensible person really buy their stuff direct from GW anymore? Bought a tactical squad off ebay for £16.00 (including postage) and that was because I was being impatient i.e. could have got it for a lot less if I'd waited until ebay's weekly dump of GW stuff that occurs on Sunday evening.

The expensive part is the new flashy toys (even with online discounters, they're expensive), but more often than not, you find don't really want them (cos the model looks silly) or need them (cos their rules are rubbish). There tends to be an exception in each release (e.g. DW Knights), but you just have to be patient and wait a few months for them to appear on ebay.

IMHO, old school GW - small infantry based armies - is still pretty doable on a budget.

 Bewareofthephil wrote:
I'll be honest, for the last few months I've been buying a back issue of WD from my childhood on ebay once a month. I recently got the issue where they released third edition 40K. It's amazing after the current WD, there's boxouts on lots of the rule changes, a bit about the FOC, loads of info. You've got the new plastic space marine kit, with pics of the sprues and suggestions for assembly and conversions.

I'm loving these old issues. I recently stopped my WD subscription, and unless things change drastically, it'll stay that way. The magazine used to be so good.

I'll admit I'm a sucker for the presentation and feel of the new magazine, but the lack of content just kills it. It really is just a glorified catalogue. Ironic, then, that it's the 'golden era' of WD which had on the cover of each issue "Games Workshop's monthly catalogue" (or something along those lines) right there in bold text.

Hell, remember when you were encouraged to make walls and fences using things from the garden? :p

Exalted for truth.

 pretre wrote:
I understand that 'hit them in the pocketbook' is the conventional wisdom, but do we have any anecdotal evidence that that has ever worked?

Put it this way. Is there an OFFICIAL GW forum? No there is not. Why? Because GW doesn't like the negativity going on. So yes complaining does work. GW solution though? Ignore and make sure nobody reads it. So OFFICIAL forums are gone now.

So you can see how GW handles things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 undertow wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Like how GW thinks that its perfectly reasonable for me to go get a $700 ipad, then pay $5.99 for the flyer rules, just so I have access to the dakkajet rules. I bet that goes really well when little timmy explains that to his mom when he wants to his DakkaJet.

GW doesn't expect you to purchase an iPad just to get the rules for the DakkaJet, the digital products are there for people that already have an iPad. I like how you chose one of the highest prices possible for an iPad to illustrate your point. They can be found much cheaper than that, especially if you go with the previous model.

Go for a previous model? Are you serious? I am sure it was said that the previous models don't work and you NEED the CURRENT model for it to work.

nkelsch wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

We will see how the ongoing Hobbit boycott is doing: Still hge piles of "limited edtion" boxes to sell.
And I will be surprised if the new Codex prices plus obscene Terminator/Speeder/Talon price increases will not have serious negative impact on sales and people starting an army.

That isn't a Boycott... that is just a product no one wants for a price no one will pay, it is just an unwanted gakky product, like Dreadfleet. A Boycott implies that people really do want the product but are refusing to buy for some other issue.

I own a crap ton of GW's LotR line, including some of the stuff that was pretty much just direct only such as the Guards of the Galadhrim Court. I haven't however touched the Hobbit because it just isn't worth it. $50 for 6 warg riders, hahaha, ha. I like the Hunter Orcs, though they kinda look like they belong in an 80's movie with David Bowie, it is still nice to have variety, especially with horde guys like orcs. I'm not a fan of the Goblins as goblins, but once someone pointed out they look like Morlocks I rather wanted them (and may still via ebay where there are people breaking up the starter set so I can get them for about $1 a guy, which is a price I don't mind paying. I doubt I'm the only LotR fan that won't touch the Hobbit stuff not because we don't like it, but because of the price.

I heard that GW will be putting the rules from White Dwarf as PDF's on their website. When I was at my local GW a couple of weeks ago I overheard the staff talking about the White Dwarf rules becoming PDF's on the GW website and congratulating a kid who had bought up the issue with GW HQ due to not being able to find rules for the Storm Talon.

 MetalOxide wrote:
I heard that GW will be putting the rules from White Dwarf as PDF's on their website.

From?

 Ouze wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:
I heard that GW will be putting the rules from White Dwarf as PDF's on their website.

From?

When I was at my local GW a couple of weeks ago I overheard the staff talking about the White Dwarf rules becoming PDF's on the GW website and congratulating a kid who had bought up the issue with GW HQ due to not being able to find rules for the Storm Talon.