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 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 conker249 wrote:
3 shots to kill a landraider is powerful indeed. Im not looking forward to fighting grav guns.

4 shots to kill a Land Raider, as the above sequence of events results in a vehicle losing 3 hull points.

Three shots. 1 + 2 + 2 > 4.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 conker249 wrote:
3 shots to kill a landraider is powerful indeed. Im not looking forward to fighting grav guns.

4 shots to kill a Land Raider, as the above sequence of events results in a vehicle losing 3 hull points.

2 shots is 3 HP. 3 shots is 5 HP. 4 shots is 7 HP.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 conker249 wrote:
3 shots to kill a landraider is powerful indeed. Im not looking forward to fighting grav guns.

4 shots to kill a Land Raider, as the above sequence of events results in a vehicle losing 3 hull points.

3 shots.
Shot 1 - lose HP, suffer Immobilise (1 HP total gone)
Shot 2 - lose HP, suffer Immobilise ->lose another HP (3 HP total gone)
Shot 3 - lose HP, suffer Immobilise ->lose another HP (5 HP total gone)

I need to go to bed. My mind seems to be intertwining '3 shots' and '3 hull points' freely. I misread that one so incorrectly.

Strike that as GM 0 - Dakka 1

OK, the grav weapon causing the HP loss in addition to the immobilized result has ZERO baring on why the FAQ does not apply.

Lets make up a weapon for the purpose of this discussion.

EMP missile Range:48" S:- AP:- Type: Heavy 1, Blast, EMP

EMP: EMP weapons have no effect on non-vehicle units. When resolving a hit against a vehicle do not roll for armor penetration. Instead the the vehicle suffers an Immobilized result.

This weapon if fired once at a perfectly normal land raider would cause that LR to be immobilized but not loose any hull points. If it was fired again at that same land raider it would cause that LR to loose a single hull point. The FAQ tells us the land raider would not loose the hull point just because it suffered a result on the VDT. This is why the 1st shot does not remove a HP. The FAQ also tells us that some other effect can specify that a hull point is lost. In this case some other effect is the immobilized result. PG 74 of the BRB clearly states that an immobilized vehicle that suffers an immobilized result looses a hull point.


And that's why the FAQ does not stop a grav weapon from removing two hull points when it successfully damage an immobilized vehicle. The immobilized result is another effect removing a hull point and the grav gun itself is removing another hull point.

I can't see any reason why it would be only 2 HP's gone, 3 HP is the only way that makes sense to me

you can already do this with other guns..

a squad of 3 lascannons, actually has a good chance to get two immobile results (multiple weapon destroyed where theres no more weapons also counts as immobile as well)

when 3 lascannons pen, and roll multiple immobile results, you strip the extra HP for the extra immobile result... this isnt new.

they could also just blow the thing up on a 6 too

you need a specific rule that tells you to ignore the instructions under the immbile result that tell you to strip the extra HP, or you do in fact strip that HP, just like with EVERY OTHER instance of two immobile results being rolled.

Anpu-adom wrote:
I'm with the loss of 2 hullpoints in that scenario. One immobilized result doesn't happen before the other, and they are resolved simultaneously. Separately doesn't mean non-simultaneously.

Agreed. Two hull points here.

Now, if you had two units firing grav guns and both caused separate immobilize results than that would be a total of 3 hull points lost. Or if the vehicle was already immobilized and you hit it with grav guns and got another immobilize result, that would be a third.

The key here is that the damage results from shots fired from a single unit affect their target at the same time.

Moridan wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote:
I'm with the loss of 2 hullpoints in that scenario. One immobilized result doesn't happen before the other, and they are resolved simultaneously. Separately doesn't mean non-simultaneously.

Agreed. Two hull points here.

Now, if you had two units firing grav guns and both caused separate immobilize results than that would be a total of 3 hull points lost. Or if the vehicle was already immobilized and you hit it with grav guns and got another immobilize result, that would be a third.

The key here is that the damage results from shots fired from a single unit affect their target at the same time.

That's not true. So you also say that 2 lascannons both rolling immobilize result in only 2 HP lost?
Why are you failing to apply one of the immobilizes?

the rules unde rimmobilize, do NOT stipulate that they must be from separate units...

while shooting is simultanious, applying damage most certainly is not, and it is in fact cumulative,

weather you apply two immobiles at the same time, or sequetially, is a moot point.

as soon as you have two immobile results, the rules tell you to take off the additional HP,

you would need an acutal rule allowing you to ignore the 2nd immobile, and the specific rule saying the 2nd immobile strips an extra HP

otherwise you cant destroy multiple weapons either, heck if its all "simultanious" why not apply the removed hull points all to the same hull point.

I concur, two 6's rolled with a grav gun on the same vehicle deals 3 hull points of damage. Crazy.

I concur, two 6's rolled with a grav gun on the same vehicle deals 3 hull points of damage. Crazy.

Why is this "Crazy" given it is a 1 in 6 chance and you have to do it twice. Compare to a melta so that is a 4:24 chance to do a HP and immobilise on a hit vs melta AGAINST AV14 has a 5:24 chance of removing ALL hull points from a SINGLE hit.

Grav is good against vehicles and anything with lots of armour. What a surprise...

All hits against vehicles are resolved 1 at a time. It's in the rule book people. It's not at the same time

All hits against vehicles are resolved 1 at a time

The point being made is this is only true for penetrating sang glancing hits. Grav weapons do neither.

Though by that argument you only ever do 1 Hull Point no matter how many 6s are rolled if resolved simultaneously and ignorant of other 6s as that argument requires then removing 1 HP satisfies all 6s rolled...

 CKO wrote:
Okay, under the Graviton rule on page 121 of the new Codex: Space Marines, it states the following:

"...but on a 6, the target suffers an Immobilized result and loses a single Hull Point."

That sounds like two different effects. Immobilized + 1 Hull Point.

Now, on the Vehicle Table on page 74 of the rule book under 5. Immobilized, it states:

"Any Immobilized results suffered by an already Immobilized vehicle... instead removes an additional Hull Point."

So say I've opened fire on an undamaged enemy vehicle with a squad of Devastator Centurions and roll two 6's for damage. What's the end result? The first hit would inflict an Immobilized result on the vehicle and inflict 1 Hull point of damage, that's certain. But does that mean that the second shot would inflict two Hull Points of damage? Thanks for the help.

Grav weapons do not use penetrating hit table, ergo whatever it says there is irrelevant.
If the grav weapon rule would reference a penetrating hit and/or the penetrating hit table and stipulate that you automatically get result #5, then it would be 3 points. It doesn't, so it's 2 hull points.

Example:

Lascannon hit against rhino front, roll 2, result penetrating hit. Go to penetrating hit table(1), roll 4+1 for AP2=5. Result -1HP + immobilzied.
Lascannon hit against rhino front, roll 3, result penetrating hit. Go to penetrating hit table(1), roll 4+1 for AP2=5. Result -1HP + immobilzied. AND as stated in pen table -1HP since already immobilized.
(1) Penetrating hit table 1-2 Crew shaken (...) 3 Crew stunned (...) 4 Weapon destroyed (...) 5 Immobilized (...) 6 Explosion (...) AND further details see full text!

Grav weapon hit against rhino. Roll on grav result table (2). 6. Result -1HP + immobilized.
Grav weapon hit against rhino. Roll on grav result table (2). 6. Result -1HP + immobilized.
Grav weapon table 1-5 nothing, 6 loss of 1 hull point + immobilized

Without referencing the table, how do you know what an immobilized result does?

Grav weapons do not use penetrating hit table

Grav weapon rules disagree with you here as they state you suffer an immobilised result. Where are you getting your interpretation of "immobilised result" from?

Oh crap. You are right. By saying "immobilized resuld" they do reference the table. My bad for thinking the rules might be reasonable.

So that's 15 shots with a reroll on wounding/vehicles.
15 to hit on 3, ~10 hits, ~1.66.. 6's. Rerolls give another 1.38.. 6's. That's 3 hits per centurion grav cannon squad.
Stupidly strong compared with 3 Kyborgs for the same points.

My bad for thinking the rules might be reasonable.

How are they unreasonable? 3 Centurions are almost guaranteed to be wiped by a single Demolisher shell and only have a 24" range. The weapon is strong against armour Cents for their points are also strong against armoured infantry and vehicles. Compare vs say Broadsides with a 36" range for similar points and the Broadsides will do far more damage vs most opponents with the Cents only doing better vs 2+ save MCs and AV13+. They are about right for their points compared with the top Xenos units.

 FlingitNow wrote:

All hits against vehicles are resolved 1 at a time

The point being made is this is only true for penetrating sang glancing hits. Grav weapons do neither.

Though by that argument you only ever do 1 Hull Point no matter how many 6s are rolled if resolved simultaneously and ignorant of other 6s as that argument requires then removing 1 HP satisfies all 6s rolled...

That and the grav weapons them self say to roll 1 dice for each.
I wonder if people will start arguing you can't wreck a vehicle at all with grav guns since the part were you wreck vehicles is in the glancing and penetrating hit section of the rule book. No less crazy then the argument that its not a rule book immobilized result its some other non existent result that doesn't even prevent you from moving the vehicle since its not defined.

 FlingitNow wrote:

My bad for thinking the rules might be reasonable.

How are they unreasonable? 3 Centurions are almost guaranteed to be wiped by a single Demolisher shell and only have a 24" range. The weapon is strong against armour Cents for their points are also strong against armoured infantry and vehicles. Compare vs say Broadsides with a 36" range for similar points and the Broadsides will do far more damage vs most opponents with the Cents only doing better vs 2+ save MCs and AV13+. They are about right for their points compared with the top Xenos units.

The Centurion Threat range is the same as with the demolisher. The demolisher has no rerolls and needs hope for luck on scatter and cover saves. The Centurions are virtually guaranteed to kill a vehicle in their range. Compare for CSM Obliterators for basically the same point cost with Vet+MoN - Even if you do get 12 shots, you don't get rerolls or take two hull points with one shot - and Obi's have to be strong enough to carry the CSM army together with the hellturkey.

Maybe I should just proxy my CSM models as a Iron Hands SM army, and play them via the new SM codex. That's a big buff right there. ;-]

The Centurion Threat range is the same as with the demolisher. The demolisher has no rerolls and needs hope for luck on scatter and cover saves. The Centurions are virtually guaranteed to kill a vehicle in their range. Compare for CSM Obliterators for basically the same point cost with Vet+MoN - Even if you do get 12 shots, you don't get rerolls or take two hull points with one shot - and Obi's have to be strong enough to carry the CSM army together with the hellturkey.

Sorry Oblits can't take 2 HPs with 1 shot? My maths says they can take FIVE HPs with a single shots as they have melta (and 5 is the most HPs I'm aware of a single vehicle having). Oblits have an invun 2 attacks each and power fists. They also have loads more versatility and hugely greater threat range. Yes if you compare all the Centurions advantages over oblits and completely ignore all of the oblits advantages then yes the Cents are going to look better. Yes the CSM codex isn't great, and yes the SM one is better but not because Centurions are broken. Also for the cost of 3 Centurions you get 2 Vindicators. You can afford to drive into the 24" range pop smoke and you're almost guaranteed to win the shooting battle (with cover its about 50-50 whether the Cents kill a Vindi a single return shot should remove the Cents combat effectiveness at the very least).

I'm not even convinced the Space Marine codex is above Tau and its just out. The Cents give the marines an answer to Riptides, O'Vesa-star and to an extent possibly broadsides. They've also put the final nail in the coffin of Landraiders. But marines still can't deal with the Farsun bomb effectively (auspex helps).

Why is it that when a new unit that does something different comes out everyone cries broken and only considers their strengths and ignored all their weaknesses when comparing them. Also that 24" range makes them very vulnerable to assault where they have 1 S5 AP- attack each...

Can it be this hard?

 FlingitNow wrote:

I concur, two 6's rolled with a grav gun on the same vehicle deals 3 hull points of damage. Crazy.

Why is this "Crazy" given it is a 1 in 6 chance and you have to do it twice. Compare to a melta so that is a 4:24 chance to do a HP and immobilise on a hit vs melta AGAINST AV14 has a 5:24 chance of removing ALL hull points from a SINGLE hit.

Grav is good against vehicles and anything with lots of armour. What a surprise...

I think people's concerns are geared around Centurions and being able to re-roll the results against vehicles. I'm fairly certain that a Centurion unit firing at a Wave Serpent will wreck it every time. Then, if you split fire using Omniscope, you have some grav shots for the unit inside.

 NickTheButcher wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

I concur, two 6's rolled with a grav gun on the same vehicle deals 3 hull points of damage. Crazy.

Why is this "Crazy" given it is a 1 in 6 chance and you have to do it twice. Compare to a melta so that is a 4:24 chance to do a HP and immobilise on a hit vs melta AGAINST AV14 has a 5:24 chance of removing ALL hull points from a SINGLE hit.

Grav is good against vehicles and anything with lots of armour. What a surprise...

I think people's concerns are geared around Centurions and being able to re-roll the results against vehicles. I'm fairly certain that a Centurion unit firing at a Wave Serpent will wreck it every time. Then, if you split fire using Omniscope, you have some grav shots for the unit inside.

Err, not sure this is true. 1 unit fires all its shots simultaneously, so you cannot use some to blow up the transport and the rest to shoot the contents. You'll need a second unit to do that.

I think people's concerns are geared around Centurions and being able to re-roll the results against vehicles. I'm fairly certain that a Centurion unit firing at a Wave Serpent will wreck it every time. Then, if you split fire using Omniscope, you have some grav shots for the unit inside.

One you can't do that. 2 with 3 Centurions you should get about three 6s with a 4+ cover it is far from a guarantee you'll even kill the Serpent with a 250 point unit firing from within 24"...

 FlingitNow wrote:

I think people's concerns are geared around Centurions and being able to re-roll the results against vehicles. I'm fairly certain that a Centurion unit firing at a Wave Serpent will wreck it every time. Then, if you split fire using Omniscope, you have some grav shots for the unit inside.

One you can't do that. 2 with 3 Centurions you should get about three 6s with a 4+ cover it is far from a guarantee you'll even kill the Serpent with a 250 point unit firing from within 24"...

Three 6s with what cover save? That's 5 HPs. It is statistically guaranteed that the serpent dies in one shooting phase. Testing out the new dex, my friend killed 2 dreads with one 3 man squad in a single shooting phase. These things are strong. OP? No, not really, but very good.

 Sothas wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

I think people's concerns are geared around Centurions and being able to re-roll the results against vehicles. I'm fairly certain that a Centurion unit firing at a Wave Serpent will wreck it every time. Then, if you split fire using Omniscope, you have some grav shots for the unit inside.

One you can't do that. 2 with 3 Centurions you should get about three 6s with a 4+ cover it is far from a guarantee you'll even kill the Serpent with a 250 point unit firing from within 24"...

Three 6s with what cover save? That's 5 HPs. It is statistically guaranteed that the serpent dies in one shooting phase. Testing out the new dex, my friend killed 2 dreads with one 3 man squad in a single shooting phase. These things are strong. OP? No, not really, but very good.

There has been a discussion on whether or not cover saves apply.
No - cover saves (and invlunerable saves) can only be taken against glancing and penetrating hits.
Yes - Invulnerable saves and Dangerous Terrain (see Dark Eldar FAQ) sets a precedent that saves can be taken against damage unless specified otherwise. Graviton does not specify otherwise.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Sothas wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

I think people's concerns are geared around Centurions and being able to re-roll the results against vehicles. I'm fairly certain that a Centurion unit firing at a Wave Serpent will wreck it every time. Then, if you split fire using Omniscope, you have some grav shots for the unit inside.

One you can't do that. 2 with 3 Centurions you should get about three 6s with a 4+ cover it is far from a guarantee you'll even kill the Serpent with a 250 point unit firing from within 24"...

Three 6s with what cover save? That's 5 HPs. It is statistically guaranteed that the serpent dies in one shooting phase. Testing out the new dex, my friend killed 2 dreads with one 3 man squad in a single shooting phase. These things are strong. OP? No, not really, but very good.

There has been a discussion on whether or not cover saves apply.
No - cover saves (and invlunerable saves) can only be taken against glancing and penetrating hits.
Yes - Invulnerable saves and Dangerous Terrain (see Dark Eldar FAQ) sets a precedent that saves can be taken against damage unless specified otherwise. Graviton does not specify otherwise.

I'm aware of the discussion. Your post doesn't contradict what I said, why is it brought up? DE FAQ specifies invul, if you want to use that saying invul are taken, and not cover. I'm aware of your post discussing it. I'm not going to discuss the cover here other than saying that FAQ doesn't apply to the cover save, only the invul. So still not cover regardless of wether or not that FAQ is used.

Sothas, you said "what cover save?". It seemed to me you were unaware of the discussion. As to not start up the debate I listed the major reasoning for each side. If people want to discuss it further they can in a different thread.