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 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Relapse wrote:
I use Epic as the example because it was the most prominent and long lived of the Specialist line, but I imagine the same is true of any of the other Specialist games. After the initial people bought the product, GW saw sales figures slow to the point it wasn't viable to keep the games going and pulled the plug on them.

That was the usual cycle I witnessed. Game came out, everybody bought it in droves. As the different armies/gangs/fleets/teams/etc, were fleshed out, everybody bought them up. And then there were no new models to release, so nobody bought anymore. That's why a yearly release cycle would do wonders for the Specialist Games. Release one every year, and by the time, say, BFG's turn comes around again five years later, there's a whole crop of new players ready to buy into it.

This. I owned two GorkaMorka mobs, six Mordheim warbands, three Necromunda gangs, two BFG fleets, a 54mm Inquisitor warband, and a small Epic force that I never got round to finishing before it was "cleared out" by my parents when I moved. The "problem" for GW's release model is that these games are slow-burners; they make money, but not enough for the corporatists in charge of the company to care, since they seem pathologically incapable of/unwilling to consider and value their secondary effects on the business like customer retention.

Put out one big-box per-year, plus a few expansions to round out the range and fill slow months in the "main" game release schedule, and then bring back Fanatic web content to maintain interest in each game while you cycle through the others. Splash release the boxes in GW stores and FLGS during that game's year, then just maintain a small direct-only stock during the years you're focusing on the other stuff. Encourage linked-campaigns using all the different scales and systems by showing such things in WD; a BFG planetary assault, followed by a skirmish-scale Special Ops scenario, followed by a 40K campaign, then an Epic campaign, capped off by a big Apocalypse battle at the end as a social event - they need to tailor their coverage to encourage "combined arms" gaming with multiple systems, but also consider how best to use the SGs to retain and perhaps even reclaim customers that have tired of the main games and want something different.

 Peregrine wrote:
I can believe it. Limiting the game to a few army sets is a lot simpler (and cheaper, presumably) than what they had before, especially if the re-launch includes moving everything to plastic. And a late-2014 release would mean the new game arrives as the last of the LOTR sales disappear, which is something GW has to be worrying about after how badly the Hobbit game failed.

Dear 40k players:Your specialist games were shut down due to low sales.Following your logic If LOTR has low sales a year later they,ll bring it back.And lotr won't be shut down anytime soon.WHY?WHY?WE ARE FOLLOWERS OF TOLKIEN!WE DONT GIVE A HOBBIT ABOUT WHETER OR NOT OUR GAME GETS NO SUPPORT!UNTIL YOU SET EVERY LAST COPY OF LOTR TO HELL WE WILL NOT GIVE UP!!

Well, at least the trains run on time...

 Hulksmash wrote:

Relapse wrote:
It would hinge on if the production costs could be recouped. I imagine that GW could be a tad gunshy on that since there is stuff available on ebay that could possibly undercut it's sales.

Actually, based on the costs things are going for on Ebay GW would have to price ridiculously higher than they currently do for 40k products to not be undercutting the resellers. It might not even have been a bad idea to kill and sell off all specialist games a year or two before starting them up in the way noted in the OP.

That said I'm not holding my breath no matter how much I love BFG and Epic.

The only reason prices are what they are, though is the fact people can't get the Specialist items from GW anymore. It was not uncommen to see entire armies going for half of what GW was charging while Specialist was still running.

To be fair we see that with their in production main systems frequently as well, if you know where to look

Why would they sell epic?It will mean less apocalypse sales.

Da krimson barun wrote:
Why would they sell epic?It will mean less apocalypse sales.

Umm. Keen deductive reasoning there, old chum.

Da krimson barun wrote:
Why would they sell epic?It will mean less apocalypse sales.

Why is that? If you want a large scale game with apocalypse, you need hundreds of 28mm models, tons of vehicles, lots of tablespace, and a lot of time. With Epic you can fight a battle that's larger in scope in a fraction of that time, a fraction of that tablespace, and much smaller models. It's a wholly different game. Even then, there aren't that many "Apocalypse" sales aside from the handful of superheavies and the rulebook/templates. I have tons of Guard for 40k. I don't need to buy more for Apocalypse.

Because GW want you to buy huge armies with the 28mm pricing, not Epic.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Because GW want you to buy huge armies with the 28mm pricing, not Epic.

exactly.

Da krimson barun wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Because GW want you to buy huge armies with the 28mm pricing, not Epic.

exactly.

Really? I figured they'd want you to buy both.

 Brother SRM wrote:

Da krimson barun wrote:
Why would they sell epic?It will mean less apocalypse sales.

Why is that? If you want a large scale game with apocalypse, you need hundreds of 28mm models, tons of vehicles, lots of tablespace, and a lot of time. With Epic you can fight a battle that's larger in scope in a fraction of that time, a fraction of that tablespace, and much smaller models. It's a wholly different game. Even then, there aren't that many "Apocalypse" sales aside from the handful of superheavies and the rulebook/templates. I have tons of Guard for 40k. I don't need to buy more for Apocalypse.

That's pretty much the opinion of my group. We just saw Apocalypse, shook our heads and continued playing Epic. A lot easier to pack and carry the armies, that's for sure.

 notprop wrote:
On the plus side we can now look forward to a Mantic 6mm grimdark scifi game.

This is great news!

Laughs, yeah. This is actually one reason why they COULD bring the Specialists back - other companies are making money with similar games, even with Specialist clones. SGs were abandoned at the point where GW thought it was best to get their core products in order, and now they have sort of done that. Very little room for expansion in the current ranges, which is probably why they have failed to capitalize on general growth of miniature wargaming sector, so they could be eyeing on something new (old).

I would go as far as to say it would make perfect sense to return to SGs as they are existing, classic and moderately successful products, but of course we're talking about GW here so..

 Kroothawk wrote:

Tim the Thief over at faeit212 wrote:GW will bring back Specialist Games gradually with beginning in the 3th Quarter 2014.
-First Game will be Epic in July or August 2014
-There will be no individual model Boxes or Blister, only Game Sets and possibly "Expansions"
-Sets remain permanent in assortment
-Epic Game Set might feature Space Marines vs. Orks, there will be Sets for Imperial Guard, Eldar and Chaos

If they start with anything, it won't be epic. I love that game but it just won't be done. Ever since they did Epic40K, chaos has been in the rules but no models exist. They had a bunch of old models but other than that I never saw them re-released in the US. Now if chaos was replaced by tyranids, it would be plausible. Unlikely but plausible.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Because GW want you to buy huge armies with the 28mm pricing, not Epic.

It doesn't matter what scale you're buying if the price is right. And again, Apocalypse is something that happens after you acquire enough models to play regular 40k, not something people buy into from the get go. People that can play Apoc games will do so, regardless of whether Epic exists or not.

Epic was THE game when I was a kid.
My friends and I played that game soooo much!!
I've bought into Epic in every one of its incarnations, and I would gladly buy into another version.

How cool would 15mm scale be?
True scale marines, huge war machines, the titans would be SICK!!!

MAN I HOPE THIS RUMOR PANS OUT TO BE TRUE!!

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Because GW want you to buy huge armies with the 28mm pricing, not Epic.

It doesn't matter what scale you're buying if the price is right. And again, Apocalypse is something that happens after you acquire enough models to play regular 40k, not something people buy into from the get go. People that can play Apoc games will do so, regardless of whether Epic exists or not.

Exactly. Apocalypse games are social events where a couple of mates can spend a weekend fighting with all of their miniatures at once, or where a group of people can show up with their armies and have a fun game all together, or as special events during campaigns. Epic is just another wargame in a different scale, something interested players would pick up either because they prefer that scale and so would never have bought in to 40K/Apocalypse in the first place, or because they're huge fans of 40K and want even more ways to interact with the universe.

 FarseerAndyMan wrote:

How cool would 15mm scale be?

I'd be all in for Flames of Warhammer. My problem with Epic is that the infantry models don't have any character at that scale, and 15mm would let you get a decent balance of character to quantity of the models.

As someone who collected, and still own and play with, two BFG Fleets, a Morhiem warband, and played many Epic 40k games, I'd love to see a return of any of these systems.

I acknowledge the validity of all the other arguements out there, and now I pose my own:

Games like Gorkamorka, BFG, Inquisitor and Epic, especially Mordhiem, allowed me, as a teenager, to get into the hobby in the first place. If they (GW) look at it from a stand point of a complete new comer: "Hey, that's an awesome miniture board game" *Looks at 40k prices* "thats a lot of money to get into the game" *Sees the ability to play similar game* well I could afford to pick pa box or blister pack - Proceeds to start in on the Hobby.

I mean, thats how it happened for me and all my friends, and We've been playing one or more of the SGs since 2001

I also used to love playing campaigns that included, BFG, 40K and Kill Team aspects. While I will agree, it may seem unlikely, I do believe that if looked at from the proper persective, and appraoched in that maner, GW could find a way to create another gateway into their gaming systems as well as make it feasable to attract younger players, which according to may hobbyists, seem to be exactly what GW is trying to do.

My 2 cents. I can see the how this could be easily argued against, given that GW doesn't always use (or even have) a marketing strategy,

 Brother SRM wrote:

 FarseerAndyMan wrote:

How cool would 15mm scale be?

I'd be all in for Flames of Warhammer. My problem with Epic is that the infantry models don't have any character at that scale, and 15mm would let you get a decent balance of character to quantity of the models.

Thats how I feel about epic. It appeals to me as a ruleset, but you can't really get "rule of cool" at that scale. It's just too small.

I guess I am the other way around, 6mm gives you the "epic" - pardon the obvious pun - sweep of a battle and on a regular sized table at least the chance to outflank or out manouvre your enemy. To be fair I like this approach and have gone further and have collections of 900th scale stuff.

For me the idea of 28mm vehicles firing literally nose to nose or the same for 15mm albeit a little further away takes away fron 40k and FOW.

However, everyone has a different itch to be scratched.

Sadly apart from the "one off" boxes I would think we will never see a specialist range again, Cost of production, store space, no none of this. For my two cents there is not enough creative people designing at GW anymore who could create and support anything beyond 40k or WFB.

There is a lot of chatter about a possible 40k skirmish game as a one off. If it happens that will be it as I suspect noone at the studio now has the ability to push and expand the concept

A nice lil' surprise today. A buddy brought by a blister of last version Fire Prisms for my Eldar army.

wilycoyote wrote:
I guess I am the other way around, 6mm gives you the "epic" - pardon the obvious pun - sweep of a battle and on a regular sized table at least the chance to outflank or out manouvre your enemy. To be fair I like this approach and have gone further and have collections of 900th scale stuff.

For me the idea of 28mm vehicles firing literally nose to nose or the same for 15mm albeit a little further away takes away fron 40k and FOW.

I'd go as far as to say the regular 40k should move to 15mm scale, so you could get the new bloated models on the table. 6x4 is getting really crowded with all the big walkers and flyers around.

 prowla wrote:

wilycoyote wrote:
I guess I am the other way around, 6mm gives you the "epic" - pardon the obvious pun - sweep of a battle and on a regular sized table at least the chance to outflank or out manouvre your enemy. To be fair I like this approach and have gone further and have collections of 900th scale stuff.

For me the idea of 28mm vehicles firing literally nose to nose or the same for 15mm albeit a little further away takes away fron 40k and FOW.

I'd go as far as to say the regular 40k should move to 15mm scale, so you could get the new bloated models on the table. 6x4 is getting really crowded with all the big walkers and flyers around.

Yeah and then you complain about having to rebuy all your minis.

I just want my Space Ship Game Back :( *Pouts in corner*

Da krimson barun wrote:

 prowla wrote:

wilycoyote wrote:
I guess I am the other way around, 6mm gives you the "epic" - pardon the obvious pun - sweep of a battle and on a regular sized table at least the chance to outflank or out manouvre your enemy. To be fair I like this approach and have gone further and have collections of 900th scale stuff.

For me the idea of 28mm vehicles firing literally nose to nose or the same for 15mm albeit a little further away takes away fron 40k and FOW.

I'd go as far as to say the regular 40k should move to 15mm scale, so you could get the new bloated models on the table. 6x4 is getting really crowded with all the big walkers and flyers around.

Yeah and then you complain about having to rebuy all your minis.

No we just dig out the models from the back of the shed.

Herzlos wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
That being said I would love to have played Epic 40k, I like the scale of the minis and I cant really play DZC (even though I would love to) or FOW because they are too expensive and nobody in my FLGS supports them..

I'm not familiar with DZC, but there's no way Epic would be cheaper to play than FoW. It's a shame no-one in your FLGS plays it though, that's a harder one to overcome.

Aye, I have Epic: Armageddon, and was thinking to use paper stand-ins, and push a few demo games forth, but I know the scale of the minis put a few people off in my FLGS...

Whilst I like the idea of 15mill epic, one can only shudder to think what those centurions would look like...*shudder*...