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*EDIT* Swapped Two Posts... Double Fail!*

I suspect that if specialist games were brought back they would be limited releases - get it now or it'll be gone!

No expansions - you will get what they put in the box.

So... Epic would be to whatever the new game would be as Man of War was to Dreadfleet.

The Auld Grump

I don't know.

It seems to make a lot of sense to me, to make it more self-contained, and market as a board game instead of a miniature game (Similar to Dust or any other such game)

But then: It makes sense, which doesn't seem to be how GW operates.

But seriously, out of the people who want it to come back, do you own any Necromunda/Inquisitor/Epic/Warmaster?

Absolutely. I have been with Necromunda since it started in the 1990's and have 4-5 functioning gangs and tons of terrain. I also own three gangs in Gorkamorka (Rebel Grots!), three sizeable fleets for Battlefleet Gothic, and even some Inquisitor stuff.

I am enough into Battlefleet Gothic that after Specialist went under, I have scrounged all the Vassal Sprites I can find off the internet, and between what already exists and by using MSpaint to manipulate things, I can print out ship flats for 90% of the options for every BFG fleet but Tyranids.

Does anyone remember the massive 6ft tall White Dwarf terrain piece for Necromunda a guy built, that looked like the cross section of a building? I actually build one of those for myself in highschool.

Quite into Mordheim at the moment, but don't need it to "come back." The rules are free and appropriate miniatures are available through GW's existing range (with the exception of Sisters of Sigmar).

I play Necro regularly and love it. I'd love it if GW supported it with new models and updated/collected rules, but thankfully the online community for it is pretty solid.

GW doesn't like making money, if they decide to do it it has to be in their very stubborn, limited way. So unlikely. If they do, they'll likely horde all the unpurchased specialist boxes after a few weeks in the stores and burn them like they did with Dreadfleet.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
The best part of this is that while many want Specialist Games to return, even more never bought a single one. I own a ton of 1st/2nd edition Epic, back when I bought, it was still available in stores. A few of us played it until Epic 40k came out.

But seriously, out of the people who want it to come back, do you own any Necromunda/Inquisitor/Epic/Warmaster?

If you look at the threads about Specialist Games shutting down, it seemed like most posts were saying someone or a group of someones were planning on buying but never seemed to get around to it. This is the reason Specialist shut down. People were planning to buy but never actually putting out any cash. A business can't run on people's unacted upon intentions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

Relapse wrote:
I doubt it. Epic was quite broadly featured and supported back in the day, with quite a few battle reports in White Dwarf and was considered the third core game. Good game as it was, I think sales just weren't there to justify the resouces being used and it was confined to Specialist Games.

But look at the rumored plan for the new Epic: single boxes for each army, probably in plastic. That means production costs are as low as possible, and GW doesn't have to deal with keeping an inventory of tons of different low-demand single models. It's exactly what I'd expect GW to do if they wanted to re-launch Epic in a more profitable form.

I will have to put it in the believe it when I see it catagory.

Relapse wrote:
If you look at the threads about Specialist Games shutting down, it seemed like most posts were saying someone or a group of someones were planning on buying but never seemed to get around to it. This is the reason Specialist shut down. People were planning to buy but never actually putting out any cash. A business can't run on people's unacted upon intentions.

Sure, but how much of that was because of how obvious it was that GW was leaving the specialist games to die? It's hard to move beyond "that looks kind of cool, maybe someday" when nobody plays the game in-store (and you're not even allowed to play it in some GW stores), half the models are out of production, and the chances of ever getting any updates or new releases are about the same as the chances of GW selling $10 tactical squads. A re-launched version with proper support would be a much more appealing product, especially if it's sold as single-box armies that let you get into it with a single purchase.

 Peregrine wrote:

Sure, but how much of that was because of how obvious it was that GW was leaving the specialist games to die?

This is classic net-thinking. People didn't buy epic 40k because they didn't want to, it's not like gw put a sign up above Epic stuff on the webstore saying "this is gak, go away". It was a very old system, nothing about it was shiny or cool or desirable.

For a re-vamped version to be successful it has to follow the formula of 40k - fluff-heavy rulebooks, a dollop of original artwork, and solid, simple rules. Hopefully not just a 12 page black and white booklet or worse, a free pdf.

^Exactly. All GW had to do to make money off of the Specialist Games was to actually support them. Even if it was just a yearly splash release (i.e. release the BFG boxed game and the core models, and have it in White Dwarf for a few months to keep it visible), that would still bring people into it. The problem, however, is GW's mistaken belief that people buying little spaceships are people not buying Space Marines instead. When, in reality, many of the people buying those little spaceships would be people who would not otherwise be spending their money on GW product to begin with.

 Peregrine wrote:

Relapse wrote:
If you look at the threads about Specialist Games shutting down, it seemed like most posts were saying someone or a group of someones were planning on buying but never seemed to get around to it. This is the reason Specialist shut down. People were planning to buy but never actually putting out any cash. A business can't run on people's unacted upon intentions.

Sure, but how much of that was because of how obvious it was that GW was leaving the specialist games to die? It's hard to move beyond "that looks kind of cool, maybe someday" when nobody plays the game in-store (and you're not even allowed to play it in some GW stores), half the models are out of production, and the chances of ever getting any updates or new releases are about the same as the chances of GW selling $10 tactical squads. A re-launched version with proper support would be a much more appealing product, especially if it's sold as single-box armies that let you get into it with a single purchase.

For years, from the early to late 90's, Epic had the same exposure and promotion that 40k and Warhammer did. Every third White Dwarf battle report was Epic as it rotated with Warhammer and 40k. It eventualy went to Specialist games in an effort to keep it going because people were not buying enough for it to remain one of the core games it used to be. If 40k or Warhammer had the same sales figures, they would have seen the same fate.
I use Epic as the example because it was the most prominent and long lived of the Specialist line, but I imagine the same is true of any of the other Specialist games. After the initial people bought the product, GW saw sales figures slow to the point it wasn't viable to keep the games going and pulled the plug on them.
I am very dissappointed Epic, Warmaster, and BFG are not being produced anymore as I like playing the games a lot and have a good selection of forces from each of the systems. I am one of the people that would be first in line buy new product for any of those games, but I also accept the fact I never really saw any of them being played at any of the several FLGS's in my area outside of the same 10 people, including myself, that would rotate between these stores. Each store had a large amount of space dedicated to these games and over time ended up first removing it from their shelves and putting it in the back room due to lack of sales, then ebaying it after our group had puchased all we were going to of it.
I think it would be a safe bet that story can be repeated enough throughout the world tha GW saw no point in continuing the various games.

GW had stopped putting out it's plastic stuff by the time I started looking into it, and so I never got around to buying anything because it was just so idiotically expensive.

I actually have one of the plastic Space Marine sprues, and if I could get more Epic stuff in that form, I would get into the game in very short order. It looked like a really cool game.

Someone told me FFG bought the rights to all the GW specialist games (not sure if correct though)

That being said I would love to have played Epic 40k, I like the scale of the minis and I cant really play DZC (even though I would love to) or FOW because they are too expensive and nobody in my FLGS supports them..

Although if what I have heard about is correct, then I think it would be interesting to see BFG done... X-wing style...

 happygolucky wrote:
Someone told me FFG bought the rights to all the GW specialist games (not sure if correct though)

99,999% in favour of "not in this reality, pal".

I mean, GW selling IP property? When pigs fly over frozen hell.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
Someone told me FFG bought the rights to all the GW specialist games (not sure if correct though)

99,999% in favour of "not in this reality, pal".

I mean, GW selling IP property? When pigs fly over frozen hell.

Well FFG does all the 40k and WHFB RPG's and have done a good job of it imo, so it wouldn't surprise me tbh, I mean there not even using it now these days..

 happygolucky wrote:
Someone told me FFG bought the rights to all the GW specialist games (not sure if correct though)

That being said I would love to have played Epic 40k, I like the scale of the minis and I cant really play DZC (even though I would love to) or FOW because they are too expensive and nobody in my FLGS supports them..

Although if what I have heard about is correct, then I think it would be interesting to see BFG done... 40k style...

What we have done here is run campaigns using Epic, BFG and 40k. BFG the means of moving armies to the various systems or controling areas of space, with 40K being more of the leadup to the bigger Epic battles.

Relapse wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
Someone told me FFG bought the rights to all the GW specialist games (not sure if correct though)

That being said I would love to have played Epic 40k, I like the scale of the minis and I cant really play DZC (even though I would love to) or FOW because they are too expensive and nobody in my FLGS supports them..

Although if what I have heard about is correct, then I think it would be interesting to see BFG done... 40k style...

What we have done here is run campaigns using Epic, BFG and 40k. BFG the means of moving armies to the various systems or controling areas of space, with 40K being more of the leadup to the bigger Epic battles.

Awesome sounds like a fun campaign

Seriously, if it made it more likely due to not needing to make new molds, I would be perfectly happy playing with newly released versions of the Epic troop and vehicle minis from the 90's. Just dig up the molds, and make new packages.

Relapse wrote:
I use Epic as the example because it was the most prominent and long lived of the Specialist line, but I imagine the same is true of any of the other Specialist games. After the initial people bought the product, GW saw sales figures slow to the point it wasn't viable to keep the games going and pulled the plug on them.

That was the usual cycle I witnessed. Game came out, everybody bought it in droves. As the different armies/gangs/fleets/teams/etc, were fleshed out, everybody bought them up. And then there were no new models to release, so nobody bought anymore. That's why a yearly release cycle would do wonders for the Specialist Games. Release one every year, and by the time, say, BFG's turn comes around again five years later, there's a whole crop of new players ready to buy into it.

 happygolucky wrote:
Well FFG does all the 40k and WHFB RPG's and have done a good job of it imo, so it wouldn't surprise me tbh, I mean there not even using it now these days..

These are licensed, not sold, just like the WH themed board and card games FFG makes. GW has the mentality of a rabid wolverine when it comes to IP territory control and will not give away an inch of what they hold. No wonder really, that's the core asset of the company.

So no, I don't think any revival of Specialist Games will come from FFG.

 happygolucky wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
Someone told me FFG bought the rights to all the GW specialist games (not sure if correct though)

That being said I would love to have played Epic 40k, I like the scale of the minis and I cant really play DZC (even though I would love to) or FOW because they are too expensive and nobody in my FLGS supports them..

Although if what I have heard about is correct, then I think it would be interesting to see BFG done... 40k style...

What we have done here is run campaigns using Epic, BFG and 40k. BFG the means of moving armies to the various systems or controling areas of space, with 40K being more of the leadup to the bigger Epic battles.

Awesome sounds like a fun campaign

It is pretty awsome, having different maps for the various theatres in the campaign. It could be recreated by cutting and pasting pictures in appropriate size on tiles for Epic and BFG for whatever forces you wished to play. We used to do that for Warmaster to see how we liked the way an army played before we went in and bought it. The table would be full of tiles designating unit types and it played just like the normal game, but without the actual miniatures. Once we saw we enjoyed an army, we went out and got it, saving money realizing we didn't like the way other armies ran.

GW would rather destroy the molds and never produce the IP material ever again than let anyone else get any money out of it- which is why it's baffling to me as to why they won't just SELL the stuff themselves!!!

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Seriously, if it made it more likely due to not needing to make new molds, I would be perfectly happy playing with newly released versions of the Epic troop and vehicle minis from the 90's. Just dig up the molds, and make new packages.

I wish there were enough people like you to make that option viable. It would be great having new opponents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Relapse wrote:
I use Epic as the example because it was the most prominent and long lived of the Specialist line, but I imagine the same is true of any of the other Specialist games. After the initial people bought the product, GW saw sales figures slow to the point it wasn't viable to keep the games going and pulled the plug on them.

That was the usual cycle I witnessed. Game came out, everybody bought it in droves. As the different armies/gangs/fleets/teams/etc, were fleshed out, everybody bought them up. And then there were no new models to release, so nobody bought anymore. That's why a yearly release cycle would do wonders for the Specialist Games. Release one every year, and by the time, say, BFG's turn comes around again five years later, there's a whole crop of new players ready to buy into it.

It would hinge on if the production costs could be recouped. I imagine that GW could be a tad gunshy on that since there is stuff available on ebay that could possibly undercut it's sales.

Hell, yeah. I could probably happily play Epic using just the plastic stuff that came out in the "Space Marine/Titan Legions" era, or just afterwards. I have seen it in pictures, but don't own any of it other than a very small pile of random Guard troops/sentinels/robots from a boxed platoon, bought when I was about 12.

If I could get enough of the (most recent) Space Marine plastic sprues for tanks and troops as new product, I would absolutely buy them, too.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Hell, yeah. I could probably happily play Epic using just the plastic stuff that came out in the "Space Marine/Titan Legions" era, or just afterwards. I have seen it in pictures, but don't own any of it other than a very small pile of random Guard troops/sentinels/robots from a boxed platoon, bought when I was about 12.

If I could get enough of the (most recent) Space Marine plastic sprues for tanks and troops as new product, I would absolutely buy them, too.

It's too bad you don't live here. My group could have you kitted out and running in our games in short order.

 happygolucky wrote:
That being said I would love to have played Epic 40k, I like the scale of the minis and I cant really play DZC (even though I would love to) or FOW because they are too expensive and nobody in my FLGS supports them..

I'm not familiar with DZC, but there's no way Epic would be cheaper to play than FoW. It's a shame no-one in your FLGS plays it though, that's a harder one to overcome.

Epic is an awesome game, but it occurs to me that its main problem in the current incarnation is that it doesn't have THAT much higher a model count than 40k. I mean, it does things BETTER, but for "having lots of stuff on the table" it's about the same, but much, much smaller. For a very largely model based hobby, this is actually a bit of a problem.

What they need is a newer Adeptus Titanicus version, focusing on walking skyscrapers pummeling each other while infantry and tanks scurry out of the way like insects. If they then keep the current Epic rules on the website for people to play a very good 6mm game, so much the better!

Relapse wrote:
It would hinge on if the production costs could be recouped. I imagine that GW could be a tad gunshy on that since there is stuff available on ebay that could possibly undercut it's sales.

Actually, based on the costs things are going for on Ebay GW would have to price ridiculously higher than they currently do for 40k products to not be undercutting the resellers. It might not even have been a bad idea to kill and sell off all specialist games a year or two before starting them up in the way noted in the OP.

That said I'm not holding my breath no matter how much I love BFG and Epic.

Relapse wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

For years, from the early to late 90's, Epic had the same exposure and promotion that 40k and Warhammer did. Every third White Dwarf battle report was Epic as it rotated with Warhammer and 40k. It eventualy went to Specialist games in an effort to keep it going because people were not buying enough for it to remain one of the core games it used to be.

One of the problems with Epic was when they 'reworked' the rules in the late 90's and the end result was badly received. After that Epic was basically allowed to die. I wonder how the LoTR sales are looking these days in comparison to late 90's Epic sales.
Specalist games could easily be kept alive, all that would be needed would be to allow Forgeworld to operate them.

Given that EPIC has a reputation of being GW's best game system ever (I've only played a demo but that was extremely fun), that that scale is the perfect scale to actually make use of all the neat new IP that they're trying to put into giant kits no one can afford, and that it would be a good way of expanding their market in an area that's not well represented in the sci-fi/fantasy gaming arena, it would be a perfect move for GW. Hence, they will not attempt it.

OTOH, the list leaves out a Tau faction box. Tau are the perfect EPIC faction- their combined arms + mobile infantry emphasis is ideally suited to that scale, and the Manta, one of the best vehicles anyone at GW has ever designed, has no hope of being used in real games outside of the EPIC scale. That GW could make a plan with such an obvious flaw gives the rumor some small increase in credibility.