Beasts of War to Terminate Affiliation with Wayland Games, thanks to GW Legal Threats

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**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Compel wrote:
filbert wrote:
Presumably you feel the same about Dakka then, given that most of the leaks BoW feature are posted here first?

I think that's a very good point. Sites like Dakka could very well be the next target. You see 'Wayland Games' ads in the top corner. You see other store ads. The latest GW threat to BoW was just about them talking about the latest rumours.

In June it’s feasibility ended…

June 2013 Games Workshop released their new trade terms which contain this:

9.4 If any Affiliates of the Trade Account disseminate or otherwise make available to the public any information in respect of new release Products prior to any Advance Order Date in respect of such Products, then, for a period of 6 months, GW shall not despatch new release Products to that Trade Account until 30 days following the Global Release Date for such Products.

It would not be a stretch of the imagination for GW to decide that, "Stores contribute to sponsoring dakka. That makes Dakka an affiliate. People discuss and share information about new Release products. We will send the lawyers after dakka."

Have no fear. Yakface will fight off the GW lawyers until his dying breath (or the money runs out!). I know the guy, we're old 'Nam buddies!

Jokes aside, this site is legally watertight. I hope!

**Zweischneid**

Kwosge wrote:
So, let me get this straight. Wayland Games made, or partnered, with a legal separate entity with the expressed purpose to violate their GW contact by releasing information on upcoming GW releases. They thought it would be OK because the 'new' entity, that is directly affiliated with Wayland Games, didn't sign a contract with GW. Even though both Wayland and BoW set out to specifically violate a legally binding contract between GW and Wayland. And now BoW is trying to act like the victim due to the increased GW legal letters telling them to stop violating the contract that Wayland and GW signed. I just want to be on the same page with everyone.

Because that is the only thing that makes since, based off BoW bending over and taking it from GW's legal team. I mean, literally, every one of those legal letters from GW could have been ignored or BoW could have forced a middle ground with GW IF BoW was truly in the right.

I find it very hard to feel bad for Wayland or BoW when they were clearly and deliberately violating a preexisting contract with GW. Also, this is probably a publicity stunt to dog and pony GW's legal team in order to start using a 'fair use' defense against GW's letters. And if you expect me to believe that Wayland will stop violating their GW contact by providing information to BoW then you must think me for a fool.

If that is the case, it would still stand to argue that the contractual obligations GW places on retailers are ... strange.

The entire, admittedly sometimes not 100% transparent relationship between Wayland Games and BoW wouldn't even be an issue if Wayland Games (or any other etailer) could just have their own little (or not so little) Blog/YouTube-channel, etc.. to promote the GW products they sell.

Ironically, it seems like an inversion of the hoops US 3rd party sellers of GW need to jump through.

In the EU, etailers like Wayland can have online-shopping carts, but can't run a blog, etc.. to advertise the stuff. In the US, Bolsmarket, Spiky Bitz, etc.. all run a blog, forum, youtube, etc.. to keep the hype up, but can't have online-shopping carts.

If GW ever gets away with "crossing the streams", you'll be left with etailers who can't have a shopping cart and can't promote the stuff they can't sell by shopping cart. It'll be websites with a single phone-number and the faint hope that some people still find it

**Void_walker**

Wow, bit sad on GW behalf to be honest. Think they are the only company that don't want consumers to know about their products till the last minute.

All the best to BoW and Waylands - at least there are plenty of other war gaming companies that want their customers to know about their products and what they think

**Compel**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Have no fear. Yakface will fight off the GW lawyers until his dying breath (or the money runs out!). I know the guy, we're old 'Nam buddies!

Jokes aside, this site is legally watertight. I hope!

I imagine the more likely result would be, Dakka having to do what BoW did and sever all sponsorship ties with stores that stock GW product. - Would Dakka's income hold out then? That's my worry. I suppose if that does happen, I may need to get off my rear and become a DCM.

It's all just still more proof to add to the theory that GW is trying to phase out independent stores selling their products.

**NinthMusketeer**

Kelly502 wrote:
Bull0 wrote:
Don't really have a problem with this. There's a world of difference between the kind of thing IGN/Gamespot/whoever do and what BoW do. If GW have an exclusive right to communicate images of their new products to the public under UK law, then that's the law, and arguing whether or not that law is fit for purpose is another discussion entirely. I realise being ambivalent to this will probably not be a popular position.

Yet another thread ending statement. wonder how much longer it goes on after his post? Ambivalence apparently is the small club.

You seem to be assuming that because someone makes an argument that you agree with, the discussion is over, despite the fact that others may have counter-arguments or other ideas to bring up. There are a lot of people bringing up some good points here, why not promote the discussion rather than trying to 'win' by getting in the last word? (Again, I may be wrong here, but this is how it's coming across to me.)

I think that though GW probably does have solid legal argument as per the contracts they previously established, it certainly wasn't a good move for publicity. I'm in that camp of enjoying GW product but having serious doubts about the abilities of the company, and this reinforces that. It would be interesting to hear from some people within GW, maybe more on the creative side of things, what they thought about other branches of the company discouraging publicity (intentionally or no). They really do some great work, particularly in the technical quality of their plastics, yet it seems like overall GW does not capitalize on it nearly as well as they could.

**Kelly502**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
Kelly502 wrote:
Bull0 wrote:
Don't really have a problem with this. There's a world of difference between the kind of thing IGN/Gamespot/whoever do and what BoW do. If GW have an exclusive right to communicate images of their new products to the public under UK law, then that's the law, and arguing whether or not that law is fit for purpose is another discussion entirely. I realise being ambivalent to this will probably not be a popular position.

Yet another thread ending statement. wonder how much longer it goes on after his post? Ambivalence apparently is the small club.

You seem to be assuming that because someone makes an argument that you agree with, the discussion is over, despite the fact that others may have counter-arguments or other ideas to bring up. There are a lot of people bringing up some good points here, why not promote the discussion rather than trying to 'win' by getting in the last word? (Again, I may be wrong here, but this is how it's coming across to me.)

I think that though GW probably does have solid legal argument as per the contracts they previously established, it certainly wasn't a good move for publicity. I'm in that camp of enjoying GW product but having serious doubts about the abilities of the company, and this reinforces that. It would be interesting to hear from some people within GW, maybe more on the creative side of things, what they thought about other branches of the company discouraging publicity (intentionally or no). They really do some great work, particularly in the technical quality of their plastics, yet it seems like overall GW does not capitalize on it nearly as well as they could.

You're assuming, I don't need a last word. The actual BOW made statements, that could have ended the thread, several others made well spoken statements those could have ened the thread. Really nothing to discuss if you stay on topic after those. But it will continue as it always does.

**rich1231**

It gets tricky in the EU if a party could be considered dominant. But thats a chat for another day.

I know this has been an incredibly hard choice for all involved, being one of the parties

.
I hope those that partook of BOW over the last year would have noticed that there was no massive Waylandisation of the site. That was never the intent. We wanted to grow the hobby, indeed we still do. This issue was related to what they could and could not post about without putting at risk all the jobs of their colleagues in Wayland. There was no clear information from GW about what could be posted etc and even if the entire internet was aware of something BOW would still invoke a punishment of Wayland for commenting on them. It put BOW in an impossible position.

We are all gutted over this.

**NinthMusketeer**

You're assuming, I don't need a last word. The actual BOW made statements, that could have ended the thread, several others made well spoken statements those could have ened the thread. Really nothing to discuss if you stay on topic after those. But it will continue as it always does.

Apologies for the assumption then. Though I'm curious as to why you felt these comments were good thread-enders, they didn't seem as such to me. Furthermore, I disagree with the idea that there is nothing (on-topic) to discuss.

On the topic of discussion, what's your take on the publicity aspect of this? Regardless of how much one supports GW it seems like the majority of people respect/approve of the company less due to this, surely that can't be a good business plan?

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Forget BOW

, what about Dakka? From what is being said, Dakka could fall foul of its association with wayland! We need a Mod, or somebody in the know, to set the record straight on this. Dakka has long been critical of GW, this could be the chance they're after to put the nails in the dakka coffin!

Tells us Mods - are we safe? The public has a right to know!

**rich1231**

Do I not like that...

Don't worry Dakka is safe.

Its not about advertising.

**Zweischneid**

rich1231 wrote:
Do I not like that...

Don't worry Dakka is safe.

Its not about advertising.

I think it is about the affiliate programme, no?

Are GW products part of the affiliate programme? Are "pre-release" pre-orders part of the affiliate programme? Is participating in it an "association with Wayland Games"?

**rich1231**

No its not about the affiliate program as that is advertising. Its about key employees, fundamentally.

**Zweischneid**

Cheers

**Agamemnon2**

Motograter wrote:
As above every one saying bow got what they deserve by that right you lot would be happy to see dakka go as well

Sure, why not. This place isn't irreplaceable.

Panic wrote:

Internets leaks goes some way to explain the decreased love for WD since the 80's and early 90's.
I used to love glossing through the mag drooling over never before seen models.
But the internets is what it is and like I said we all love a rumour.

I used to love WD too. It was the best part of what was a stunted and unfertile community because before the Internet kicked off, there was no way to make anything better. Now there is, and try as it might, GW cannot force the genie back into the bottle.

**Yonan**

If GW hadn't already paved the road to China due to the ridiculous Aus RRP, this would have done the trick. The BoW guys are great, this is just another in a long line of anti-consumer measures. If they want to be anti-customer, I'm more than happy to be anti-business WRT them.

**Kanluwen**

Herzlos wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
PsychoticStorm wrote:
Essentially GW wishes all the coverage about them to pass through them and nobody else, they want absolute control on how they might get depicted and they do not want their products showcased among somebody else.

The pig picture so frequently show here must be depicted as something worth paying money for, the systems must be depicted as the best thing one can hope to game with and the fluff the best it was ever written.

They do not want competition simple as that and somehow in their minds if they manage to have all other sites, blogs, news outlets that may not show them in the brightest of all colours or they will definitely not show them among other products die in the next minute it will all be better for them.

That's not true. Look at what the majority of these "issues" were about--things being leaked. There is a very big difference between "You can't talk about our stuff!" and "Stop revealing releases before we do".

Nah, the earlier GW letters wanted BOW to remove any video/image from their site containing any GW works*, and they asked them not to share an official GW video on youtube. They want BOW to shut down as they advertise other games

*Which is essentially a shutdown. There's probably a GW box in the background of every video on the site, and that's a lot of editing or removable.

That's not unreasonable though. Generally if you're running a website you don't simply embed someone else's material, you rehost it.

**SickSix**

I think BoW should never cover another GW product again. There are enough other companies and kickstarters out there to keep them busy.

I love the 40k ip but I can continue to play and love it with what I currently own.

**Zweischneid**

SickSix wrote:
I think BoW should never cover another GW product again. There are enough other companies and kickstarters out there to keep them busy.

I love the 40k ip but I can continue to play and love it with what I currently own.

Funny enough, Kickstarters may well be one of the reasons why "strictly-no-GW" won't work for a Wayland-BoW-style cooperation either.

For every GW legal letter giving etailers and resellers a headache, another company bypassing the juicy "product-launch-sales" with a Kickstarter is squeezing them just as much from the other side, leaving them only with a trickle of after-sales from an ever-growing list of "games-formerly-on-Kickstarter-stocks", long after the initial hype a news-site thrives on is gone.

**bit81**

Well I now give up with gw have put away a few hundred pounds for scenery (most would have went to games workshop) but I am afraid that will no longer be possible.

I will not purchase or play any gw product from here on out (yes it wont make the slightest bit of difference to the game or the company) but there has to be a line some where using my hard earned money to give to lawyers is a straw to far.

I happen to like the beasts of war shows what they need to do is move to china no copy right laws there that would f**k gw up completely or just start burning down gw premises which ever works best

hehe yes most will have thought of this and a great many will say not having any more to do with gw sick of it all

**bu11etmagn3tt**

Damn the world is going nuts. Over stuff like this even? Geesh. There is a game called "Things" suing another game called "Terrible Things" over the use of using "things" in their name... I think game/hobby companies have lost focus on the gamers/hobbiests and the fact their business is easily effected by their actions and/or inactions.... I am so turned off by GW I wont buy anything from them anymore. I will play my painted army in a gw store, but that is it. (Just my opinion)

**nkelsch**

bu11etmagn3tt wrote:
Damn the world is going nuts. Over stuff like this even? Geesh. There is a game called "Things" suing another game called "Terrible Things" over the use of using "things" in their name... I think game/hobby companies have lost focus on the gamers/hobbiests and the fact their business is easily effected by their actions and/or inactions.... I am so turned off by GW I wont buy anything from them anymore. I will play my painted army in a gw store, but that is it. (Just my opinion)

But most people who play GW games have no idea who Beast of War are. I have never even been to their website and they don't even turn up high on google search results when I look for RPG and Wargame products or news. You would be surprised how many gamers have nothing to do with internet fandoms and don't get their news this way.

And then you assume if people hear about it, they actually care... Internet outrage overestimating their impact on sales and proportion of the market.

GW can have whatever trade requirements that they want... you tied your business to that wagon train, then deal with it. If you don't like it, don't do business with them. Zweischneid is right... Even with GW's news squashing, no leaks media lockdown, stores still need GW and are selling GW to keep the lights on way more than these KS business cutting the FLGS and the MSRP markup out of the business model. At least when GW does release a product and announce it, all you really need to assure your customers is 'you carry that product, please buy from me.' Being an internet wanna-be scoopmeister and leaking trade secrets... well that doesn't mesh with being a trade partner with rules against it.

**cincydooley**

I can't say I was ever really a fan of beast of war in the first place. Too often their videos, while having lots of flash, often felt bereft of substance.

They clearly realize GW is important to their site traffic so that's why they're going to continue to cover them. I guess it seems a bit unfair, but if those are the trade restrictions GW wants to place, you've gotta abide by them if you want to be a partner.

**Relapse**

I think BoW should have gotten a clue from the first contact to cease and desist from GW. That aside...

It's probably been already said in this thread, but I say screw GW. The world has turned and there are a boatload of other equaly as good or better games out there to give attention to.
Let GW sit in it's corner like a brat, hoarding all the stale pie while everyone else is getting the stuff fresh from the oven.

**Frankenberry**

Just another example of GW bullying those smaller and weaker than they in an effort to maintain some sort of paranoid hold on their empire.

I don't generally bash GW, but this is just sad.

**filbert**

I'm looking at this from a wider perspective, not just as an issue of trade/affiliate dispute but as a growing trend from GW towards the marketplace in general and it is yet another example of GW flexing it's financial and legal muscles to effectively bully someone into doing what they want. The problem is, where does it stop? GW have used their new distributor rules to effect this result this time round but there is nothing to stop them going after websites like Dakka in order to persue this relentless clampdown on news and rumour that they seem to think is such a good idea. And who, upon recieving a C&D is likely to have the stones or funds to fight back? All the Blood Bowl fansites that got shut down and the rumour munger websites that got hit will attest to this.

Whether you thought GW were right or wrong in the recent Chapterhouse case, I think many would still appreciate GW's right to have brought the case (notwithstanding some of the underhand tactics used) but this strikes me as bullying, plain and simple. Today it's BoW, tomorrow, who knows?

**Soteks Prophet**

GW's new release policy:

Spoiler:

**Dullspork**

Kelly502 wrote:

You're assuming, I don't need a last word. The actual BOW made statements, that could have ended the thread, several others made well spoken statements those could have ened the thread. Really nothing to discuss if you stay on topic after those. But it will continue as it always does.

Do you understand the irony of your own continuing posts on this subject?

**legoburner**

Compel wrote:
filbert wrote:
Presumably you feel the same about Dakka then, given that most of the leaks BoW feature are posted here first?

I think that's a very good point. Sites like Dakka could very well be the next target. You see 'Wayland Games' ads in the top corner. You see other store ads. The latest GW threat to BoW was just about them talking about the latest rumours.

In June it’s feasibility ended…

June 2013 Games Workshop released their new trade terms which contain this:

9.4 If any Affiliates of the Trade Account disseminate or otherwise make available to the public any information in respect of new release Products prior to any Advance Order Date in respect of such Products, then, for a period of 6 months, GW shall not despatch new release Products to that Trade Account until 30 days following the Global Release Date for such Products.

It would not be a stretch of the imagination for GW to decide that, "Stores contribute to sponsoring dakka. That makes Dakka an affiliate. People discuss and share information about new Release products. We will send the lawyers after dakka."

**Grimtuff**

Pacific wrote:
PsychoticStorm wrote:

They have become the single worst thing the Wargaming industry has ever faced.

I'm beginning to think this..

Really.. if I were owner of BoW I would just tell GW to Please don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n off, and just stop covering their products completely. The problem is, as Zweischneid says, that as the most popular company they produce the most hits for website and so companies are forced to crawl through the broken glass to grovel and accept their crappy deals.

I'm all for being principled however, and it's not like they are going to be able to give an unbiased review on new GW products when the producing company has been behaving in this way.

Likewise. I daresay they've actually managed to surpass the infamous TSR in the assclown leagues.

**cincydooley**

GW traffic is decreasing? Really? Aside from KS Update threads and Politics threads, it seems like the GW stuff gets the most reads at a casual notice. How much of a decrease are we talking about?