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 Peregrine wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
this may surprise you, but i don't run vendettas, or ally cheese.

So maybe this is the problem: you arbitrarily declare certain strategies to be "cheese", and then you have trouble dealing with stuff because you've ruled out your best counters.

If my opponanent ran such a tank against me, it'd be an auto-lose unless i got very lucky and glanced it to death with meltaguns. If i was mentally ill and took some demolishers i might have a fighting chance, as long as i had them deployed in the right place. But on average i wouldn't fancy my chances.

So then maybe you should reevaluate your opinion that taking demolishers makes you "mentally ill", since they seem to be your best counter (in addition to Manticores, Vendettas, etc). It sounds like the problem here is that you're stuck on the assumption that you can't change your list and have to use melta as your only counter AV 14. In that case adding the LR Achilles is good for the game because it forces you to think about including some diversity in your choices instead of just taking melta and assuming you're done.

Plus, doesn't this contradict your argument elsewhere that bad balance makes the game better? I would think that you of all people would love these overpowered units because it's a great game when you get crushed by them with no counter available.

If you don't understand something, say so. You clearly don't understand why anyone would not powergame/waac so i'm just going to stick you on ignore.

ansacs wrote:Wasn't my advice and your comment boils down to what then? That because of bad play rune priests stomped you once upon a time but your list was fine and you stopped playing badly? Considering all your statements I have lost track of your point completely.

Talore wrote:If your list can't deal with any single unit, the problem is with your list, not the unit you are facing. This is a simple truth no matter what rules are in place.

Read Talores post carefully. Let's assume you lose over and over to a single unit your opponent brings. If al you do is "play better" and start winning, was your list at fault? It takes a good understanding of what's happening to determine if your list is at fault or your tactics. There's zero guarantee that exists here so in reality the statement should be "It's very unlikely that with the units available to you and tactics available to you that a single model is overpowered enough to win games." Unfortunately that doesn't roll off the tongue as well so people only look at half the issue. After my second loss I sat down with my list and his and thought about tailoring... But decided my list was fine. Telling someone else that the problem is with their list may end up with them learning little except that they can tailor to a specific list.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Forgeworld fulfilled my greastest desire, a DKoK Grenadier army list.

FW are in the process of fulfilling my greatest desire - a full range of Mechanicum models!

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
In our local Meta FW is accepted and nobody blinks. We see an FW model and ask what does it do? Allright cool. Let's play and have fun. We have a very nice gaming club and the attitude of the players counts for alot.

It would be awesome if more people were like that. Still, I don't complain myself for now, since I have no problems at all using a FW Sonic Dreadnought whilst playing with my closest gaming friends. I've explained what kind of weaponry it has and established the points cost with them, and we're all happy.

Totally agree. if more FW players were willing to do demonstration games and allow peopleto check out their stuff, the distrust of FW might lessen. I'm tickled to death to even see the models.

So you keep mentioning demonstrations games. How do you propose people do that who play in areas where people unanimiously refuse to even entertain FW being played because they think it's "unofficial" or "not legal"? This is a problem that can't always be solved by playing demo games you know. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's just one that isn't applicable 100% of the time and I think you fail to recognize that in favor of pushing that constantly.

I have YET to see anyplace where 100% of the people refuse to even look at a FW models. Pretty much any shop in the country will be more than happy to let you use yours while the shopowner uses their own (most shops have least one on display. if no one locally has any, play one of your buddies who has some at the shop. make sure it is at a busy time where other players are present. Take your time (but don't hog the table overlong if players are waiting for one to open up) and discuss the pros and cons with your buddy (or the store owner). People listen and trust me, you will have an audience before your game is over of people who are at the very least interested in checking out and looking at the models. I have YET to see a shop owner who would not put you on their schedule and advertise it if you speak with them about it because it brings customers into the store and the store owner will usually be more than happy to keep track of an ongoing FW order (adding their own purchases onto it) and calling it in/being the pick up point.

the point I'm 'pushing" is that by exposing players to it in a positive manner, showing them firsthand how fun it can be (maybe leaving the pages where it shows that it is official where they will "notice" it without hammering them with it, the players wont care if it is legal or not. So long as there is a set standard of rules for them to see for it in black and white so they don't have to argue and hash them out, they just. will. not. care. if it is legal or not. they will want to play with itbecause it is fun and the models are cool. Then, the shop owner can post that they are legal when the locals start asing him/her.

of course, you will always have a few hardcore ant-FW people but hey, you cant reach everyone. They will either come around or find fewer and fewer opponants. And if you are desperate and they are the only one handy, you can always play a game without it to keep your hand in for tourneys (unless your able to talk the local TO into allowing it (that might come after you woo the majority of the local players)..

I hadn't even thought of the terrain pieces that they've made, those are also great I will agree, although I haven't been able to get any of them yet. I do want to mix and match and get some of those board pieces to start building up an at-home game board.

Mechanicum, I really hope that they continue to flesh those units out. I'm very happy with where it's at right now with the Magos and the big beasties.. I'm hoping they release Skitarii next. I'd love to see an army of them.

Then, the shop owner can post that they are legal when the locals start asing him/her.

A shop owner would have to be stupid to support an outside source of models for his customers. IF he doesn't somehow sell FW himself , what does he gain from people buying it ? people will just cherry pick the best models from FW , using the cash they would normaly spend on ally or their own army and give their cash to FW and not him .

Makumba wrote:
A shop owner would have to be stupid to support an outside source of models for his customers. IF he doesn't somehow sell FW himself , what does he gain from people buying it ? people will just cherry pick the best models from FW , using the cash they would normaly spend on ally or their own army and give their cash to FW and not him.

That's a little extreme:

1. You're sort of saying a shop owner won't allow anything that isn't bought in his store. I doubt there are too many draconian store owners out there chasing customers away for daring to bring in FW models.
2. Cherry picking the best models from FW? To what end? Get one over on the store owner? Doesn't seem realistic.

I have seen even small stores get ahold of FW stuff. I bought one of the chaos symbols from a small store you could barely turn around in. of course, the store owner talks to his/her customers (the successful ones) and gauges what the customers like and can be the central point of the "order. That means that out of a 1500 order, he/she can put in a portion of it to buy things that they can put on the shelf for sale. I'll tell ya what, I would MUCH rather pay an extra $5 for a tank if I can get it now than have to go through months of back and forth and backouts amongst other players comprising an order ourselves and then waiting for delivery in hopes that what I ordered will have been in stock.
Besides, anyone who has been to a shop that uses/has FW in stock will tell you that it is a boon that adds revenue. For one thing, it brings in new customers from a wider geographical area if word gets out you have it..

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Forgeworld fulfilled my greastest desire, a DKoK Grenadier army list.

FW are in the process of fulfilling my greatest desire - a full range of Mechanicum models!

Can't wait at all. Adeptus Mechanicus come to meeeee

Add to the list the new escalation supplement and then suddenly you have an excuse to break out those wonderful Forgeworld superheavies without having to go full Apocalypse! Gives me an excuse to finally purchase the Valdor and Minotaur! Not to mention the fact that I can now deploy my CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT!

Unit1126PLL wrote:Well, see, the problem with this argument is that the fluff for the Avenger did retcon it, by saying that the Sisters need to call upon the Imperial Navy for air support. If you don't like that retcon, it's fine, the fluff is malleable. But to say that Forge World is wrong to retcon the fluff because the fluff hasn't been retconned is nonsensical.

You are both correct and incorrect.

Forge World is not "wrong" to follow a different interpretation - but at the same time it is a different interpretation, written by a different studio in different publications. For it to qualify as a retcon this would require an overarching continuity to exist in the first place, which just isn't the case. GW will probably just ignore this, much like they ignored the idea of there being SoB Orders with blue robes (IA vol.2) and instead continue sticking to black, white and red.

All that some(?) people are saying is that they don't like FW's interpretation, which really is just a matter of interpretation and/or personal preferences, just like some people don't like something in a novel or even a Codex.

Peregrine wrote:So what exactly do you think SoB use for air support? Have they ever been given fluff that includes their own dedicated air support, while even marines have to ask the navy for help sometimes? And no, "they don't have air support" isn't an option if they want to participate in 40k battles outside of special SoB-only scenario missions.

Personally? I'd vote for Valkyrie drop ships, Lightning fighters, Aquila shuttles and Argus landers, if only because I've already seen those in various outsourced material (the Soulstorm computer game and some BL novels). I like the designs, and think they'd fit the role they would have to fill.

And Marines having to ask the Navy? For space superiority, maybe, but certainly not for basic air-to-ground support, which is the only thing that matters for the tabletop.

I believe there's a lot of people exaggerating the Navy's monopoly as presented in GW's books somewhat. The Imperial Guard is completely dependent on the Navy for sure, and since the IG is the Imperium's largest and most important military body, this makes this relationship particularly obvious and well documented in the setting. However, looking further, we've also seen GW writing about the Inquisition having its own ships, the Adeptus Mechanicus, hell even the Arbites space cops have their own fleets...

Aside from consistency to the Codex Imperialis and its original mention of SoB fleets as well as simply fitting to current fluff (who exactly allows the Seraphim to deep-strike? and if the Ministorum kept the SoB to remain independent of the Guard would they not also want to remain independent of the Navy?), this question also becomes important when you consider how often the SoB seem to act independently of other Imperial organisations, and even against other Imperial organisations - or do you think that, for example, the Navy backed their invasion of Fenris?


... but that really should be its own thread, I guess. Apologies for so much off-topic. When it comes to Sororitas, I could blather all day.

 EVIL INC wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

So you keep mentioning demonstrations games. How do you propose people do that who play in areas where people unanimiously refuse to even entertain FW being played because they think it's "unofficial" or "not legal"? This is a problem that can't always be solved by playing demo games you know. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's just one that isn't applicable 100% of the time and I think you fail to recognize that in favor of pushing that constantly.

I have YET to see anyplace where 100% of the people refuse to even look at a FW models. Pretty much any shop in the country will be more than happy to let you use yours while the shopowner uses their own (most shops have least one on display. if no one locally has any, play one of your buddies who has some at the shop. make sure it is at a busy time where other players are present. Take your time (but don't hog the table overlong if players are waiting for one to open up) and discuss the pros and cons with your buddy (or the store owner). People listen and trust me, you will have an audience before your game is over of people who are at the very least interested in checking out and looking at the models. I have YET to see a shop owner who would not put you on their schedule and advertise it if you speak with them about it because it brings customers into the store and the store owner will usually be more than happy to keep track of an ongoing FW order (adding their own purchases onto it) and calling it in/being the pick up point.

Just because you haven't seen it, it doesn't mean such places don't exist. It's like claiming dentists aren't real just because you haven't seen one.

We've had many reports of players in past FW threads who say their club has banned all FW (and that's not even counting store owners who ban FW models despite the fact they can make money on paints, terrain, and all the non-FW stuff you need for the army, like vehicles. Reduced sales from someone are better than no sales at all from someone). It's a real issue where you have people who absolutely refuse to deal with it because of the idea they've created that it's "not GW", "not Official" or "not legal". These are things some people need the ammunition to get past first before they can even consider demo games, especially if they're the only "pro-FW" player in the group. I'm not saying they need to browbeat it into people but they need to have the points to raise to counter those arguments to gain any ground to push on further with.

Believe it or not, I get what you're saying. I just know from the threads of the past that this problem isn't always so easily solved (if it was then just explaining it on Dakka would have swung the entire community over to being pro-FW once that was cleared up but we still get some people who refuse to budge and will argue everything under the sun and shift goal posts everytime you can find any "proof" that fulfills their conditions).

likewise, Just because you have not seen clubs or stores that allow FW models does not mean they don't exist.
I never said it was easy. heck, without direct GW support, it will be an uphill battle. However, I feel and have always felt that in general people are "good" and that making an effort to appeal to them and expose FW to them in a positive way so that they will WANT to use the models will win the over faster than just telling them it is legal (in past threads, I used extreme "never happen" examples to prove this point and people purposely took it literally to support their strawman arguments). If they WANT to play you you wont have to tell them it is legal because they just wont care. They will no longer feel that they are "forced to play you" or "have to play you" (read these figuratively as that is how I hae always meant it. only using the literal meaning in the never happens examples to prove the point) out of duty or pressure or responsibility.

years ago before being exposed to the models, I too thought that it was the rich man's overpowered more money = win stuff. I will admit that I used to be one of "those guys". I was wrong in my thinking and am glad tohave been proven wong. now, years later, I fully understand that stuff in the codexes can be totally broken so a rich person does not have to buy FW to win. They can just buy 3 riptides. why then, is FW still so popular? Because the models are simply amazing. The rules are also not as unbalanced as many of the things in the codeses and it expands the modeling and painting possibilities to new horizons.

I have yet to meet a person who will not allow you to use FW counts as (contemptor dread as a normal dread) or DKok as normal guard and so forth. Even when I used to be anti-FW, I did not care about that. I was only afraid of the "overpower rules" that I thought came with the models.I know these people likely exist, but I feel that they are in a minority.

How to get everyone to enjoy the new horizons FW gives to you... I don't know. Some people will never be reached no matter what. The best Ican say is to reach who you can and always put forward how much fun it is, the new options it opens up and be generous with your kindness. This doesn't mean you cant let them know the stuff is "legal of course, it just means that the 'this is legal' approach alone I don't think will work. The carrot is always better than the stick. lol

Edit: Don't get me wrong. I am sure that you (or whoever else) is not going in to clubs and shops strongarm style and I am also sure that you aren't super strongselling the stuff (I'm sure you know they type of annoying salesman im talking about lol). Reading through this thread and the other, the main point you guys bring up is that it is legal while appearing to gloss over the means that I am pointing out.as not being relevant or as relevant. I'm sure that actually 'in the shop' your more than willing to play using the models and probably more than willing to let others check out the rules/models (what gamer isn't happy to show off their stuff). The point is that a lot of the gamers who are anti-FW come to the internet forums as well and read through these threads. I used to after I learned to use a computer back in 99 ans had not been exposed to FW yet. How they see the pro-FW people here can influence how they view FW stuff too. In many of the posts, they will see the its legal arguments combined with who owns what company what are subsidariesand so forth and think 'so what". I think that even when addressing the issue online in forums, stressing the fun of the stuff more than the legalities of the stuf is important. We sometimes forget that 'here" we have the very people we are talking about 'converting' as an audience.

Makumba wrote:
AV14 immune to melta , IWND procing on +4 , PotMS . totaly easy to kill and what am I suppose to do with two vanquishers against all other armies?

So since when does the Achilles have melta immunity? The rule for ferromantic invulnerability is:

Ferromantic Invulnerability: The hull of the Achilles has been specially constructed to resist even the most determined assault and is almost preternaturally resilient. As a result, the Land Raider Achilles is not subject to the particular effects of the Lance and Melta special rules by attacks made against it. In addition it reduces the effects of all rolls on the damage chart made against it (other than by Destroyer type weaponry), by -1

I have underlined the specific point that is in contention here. The Achilles is not subject to the particular effects of the Lance and Melta special rules. It doesn't say not subject to those weapons, just their special rules. Thus a lance weapon doesn't get the increase on the damage table roll and neither get extra penetration dice beyond the normal. Was the achilles changed in the newest IA apocalypse book or something because as far as the original rules as written go the tank has no immunity against Lance and Melta weapons, their special rules just don't apply?

Skriker

Skriker wrote:Was the achilles changed in the newest IA apocalypse book or something

Oh, right, this is also part of the brighter side of forgeworld. Unencumbered by the slow codex system and with no standardized way of distributing rules, the combination of parts of new books superseding parts of old books (and then FAQs, updates, and DLC, presumably) will mean that nobody will know what the rules for anything are anymore.

... which will mean that everybody will have to buy every new book that comes out to have any ability to know the rules for the game. I'm surprised GW hasn't phased this in to regular 40k. Oh wait... supplements...

Actually all the new FW books have their table of content for free on the website and the pdf updates are free as well...same website. So you don't HAVE to buy anything.

Skriker - when people talk about 'melta immunity', they usually mean 'immune to the extra dice'. They're just being imprecise because the Avatar as been overshadowed for so long.

 Ailaros wrote:

Skriker wrote:Was the achilles changed in the newest IA apocalypse book or something

Oh, right, this is also part of the brighter side of forgeworld. Unencumbered by the slow codex system and with no standardized way of distributing rules, the combination of parts of new books superseding parts of old books (and then FAQs, updates, and DLC, presumably) will mean that nobody will know what the rules for anything are anymore.

... which will mean that everybody will have to buy every new book that comes out to have any ability to know the rules for the game. I'm surprised GW hasn't phased this in to regular 40k. Oh wait... supplements...

Get over it Ailaros. I asked the question because I do not have the original IA volume that the Achilles was included in, nor do I have the newest Apocalypse volume. The Achilles actually didn't change and is not the newest Apocalypse book. I have since checked. That said when given the opportunity Forgeworld does update rules for units in new volumes where appropriate. Some of their IA volumes are rather long in the tooth and need to be updated to get in sync with version 6 of the game. Many of the Imperial Armour books are old enough to be based off of codecies that are now multiple versions out of date. Also forgeworld addresses complaints when they update a book as well which is why a number of units in the new Apocalypse book have changes to abilities, stats and costs. What exactly is wrong with updating old information? Nothing.

Skriker

Skriker said:

When given the opportunity Forgeworld does update rules for units in new volumes where appropriate. Some of their IA volumes are rather long in the tooth and need to be updated to get in sync with version 6 of the game. Many of the Imperial Armour books are old enough to be based off of codecies that are now multiple versions out of date. Also forgeworld addresses complaints when they update a book as well which is why a number of units in the new Apocalypse book have changes to abilities, stats and costs. What exactly is wrong with updating old information? Nothing.

Spot on, have an exalt.

People do know they can email FW and ask if their book has the most current rules so they don't have to buy anything blindly, right?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
People do know they can email FW and ask if their book has the most current rules so they don't have to buy anything blindly, right?

I also recently spoke with the folks over there and they are in process of having firstly a list of where to find the most up to date rules for a given model, and also eventually adding links to those books in every listing so there will be a little less guess work involved in the future. Sadly they didn't have an ETA for when any of it would be implemented. Would definitely make things much easier.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
People do know they can email FW and ask if their book has the most current rules so they don't have to buy anything blindly, right?

I also recently spoke with the folks over there and they are in process of having firstly a list of where to find the most up to date rules for a given model, and also eventually adding links to those books in every listing so there will be a little less guess work involved in the future. Sadly they didn't have an ETA for when any of it would be implemented. Would definitely make things much easier.

Skriker

When I asked about it they said after IA2v2 came out. So in the next month or two I'd guess.

I can vouch for the quality of the models. I got a spartan assault tank and fire raptor recently and they are very nice sculpts. I brought the unpainted, unassembled Spartan into my FLGS over the weekend and had quite an audience.

The difference in quality of the fluff is astounding. IA Apoc is terrific fun to read and reminds of what I liked about 40k about 10 years back.

IA 12 is particularly good, bit light on fluff compared to some of the earlier books but full of rules, scenarios and other goodness.

The rule books are more expensive but they do come as a quality product.

FW offer a far more diverse variety to 40k and 30k would be nothing without them but some aged 80's metal models and a makeshift set of rules.

I echo what looky likey says - IA12 is a great book. Plenty of decent artwork showing storm eagles assaulting a necron tomb world and the DKOK fighting built up areas and underground.

I have to say I was shocked by FW prices but after getting some books and models from them it felt like they were... worth it.
The First HH book was by far the best GW thing I have ever seen and was pure unrelenting awesome. It was so fleshed out in every aspect it felt weird to use my normal SM again.
But product availability is a MAJOR issue.

I think the background and stories they write about the 40k Universe feel less... silly. They come across as more "gritty" to me than the stuff in the Codexes.

So I would say FW also offers some amazing background and setpieces for the 40k universe. I feel like they make it more "realistic". If such a thing could be said about this silly universe we all play in.

 cvtuttle wrote:
I think the background and stories they write about the 40k Universe feel less... silly. They come across as more "gritty" to me than the stuff in the Codexes.

So I would say FW also offers some amazing background and setpieces for the 40k universe. I feel like they make it more "realistic". If such a thing could be said about this silly universe we all play in.

I love FW lists, much more freedom usually. Hell the HH stuff are the most balanced army lists GW has ever come out with. Fire Ward and put the FW guys in charge of writing codices.

That and the models are usually beautiful. I am finishing up my marine army to sell it so I can buy more HH stuff.

Col. Dash wrote:
I love FW lists, much more freedom usually. Hell the HH stuff are the most balanced army lists GW has ever come out with. Fire Ward and put the FW guys in charge of writing codices.

That and the models are usually beautiful. I am finishing up my marine army to sell it so I can buy more HH stuff.

Yeah I was surprised by how the points costs and rules made SENSE for once. And I mean all of them. Also Assault Marines as troops is very nice as is Storm Eagles being infinitely more useful than storm Ravens.

People complaining that they're bored of playing SW/DA/BA/C:SM and then refusing to play the FW chapters because they use FW rules...