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StyleXHobby wrote: If you go to college or university follow you dreams, and study what interests you. If you work hard enough things will work out in the end. follow your dreams, not the cash!
Said naive people everywhere.
I agree. My favorite naive person is Alan Watts.
That's lovely. Money, however does matter. So does innate intelligence and ability.
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
I agree heavily with the sentiment that the country can't function with nothing but doctors, lawyers and artists running about.
I'd argue the vast majority of good jobs out there don't require schooling beyond 10th grade, and rely far more on specialized experience in the field. Dirty Jobs is a great example of that.
Do those jobs all pay 100k/year? no. But They pay well enough to support a family provided you don't live in California or New York.
Should someone be paid $15/hr to work a McJob? Absolutely not, because for every self entitled worker demanding that kind of pay there are 5 high school or college kids who would gladly take the job at minimum wage because it's better than the money they aren't making at the job they don't have.
The ONLY adults that should be working low end retail and service jobs are those who are supervisors and perhaps the odd person trying to get a second start at things. Instead, I've seen the same grown ass dude working at a local Wendy's for the last 10 years, still not in charge of anything other than taking orders.
It's basic economics: if an unskilled teenager can do your job just as well as you with all of 2 weeks training, you don't deserve more money, you need a new job.
Now sure, some of the burden ends up on the company. A local burger joint called In 'N Out has a starting pay of $10.25/hr for the guy who cuts onions and takes out the trash. The next step up is cashier who makes 12/hr, fry cooks make 14/hr, and line cooks make something around 15-16/hr. Store managers there make about 90k/yr. And this is a place where a cheeseburger, fries and soda run $5. And they manage to never freeze any of their food(every store is within a 1 day drive of a distribution hub so that they don't need to freeze anything). That company rakes in the money(a mostly West coast based company with 290 stores doing about $465mil in revenue anually). So sure, McDonalds and Burger King could rework their whole setup to pay more for actual quality staff, but then they wouldn't have $1 menus.
There are plenty of jobs out there that pay well for entry level work, the difference is that they won't hire any random fool. If you want a good job, the competition will be higher, that is just the nature of our world. You can't demand a raise when Larry is more than willing to take your job for what you already make unless you have some major skill that your employer desires enough to facilitate a raise.
My employees make $10/hr starting. It's data entry at home doing insurance settlement evaluation. If they are good at at over time, the pay caps out at $12/hr. Not a ton of money, but it's also only part time and it's from home so you can't expect a huge paycheck for it. The next step up however is a major upgrade. Our sales people make 12/hr base or 25% of their monthly profit. Most reps earn the company 15-20k per month, which means they take home $23-31/hr before taxes. Usually takes reps 2 months to learn the process and they are on their way. Last month we had a rep earn 29k in his second month, netting him $45/hr for that month. And this job doesn't require a degree beyond high school(although it may help get an interview). Plenty of reps were hired on referral from other employees and many of them did not go to college. And nothing in college would have taught them the skills to do this job at all. It's all basic math and salesmanship.
I've lost track of what my point is. It's late.
"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
I wish I could say my time at Uni was not wasted, but that would be a lie. I wish I had just worked instead, so I had a secure income and wasn't the detriment I now am to the potential for property purchases (due to debt)
If you don't see something that LEAPS out at you then IMO it will be more productive to work into the field you want to be in, rather than study your way into it.
WAAAGH Sparky! 1400 (ish) - On the rebound!
Kommander Sparks DKoK 1000 (ish) - Now on the backburner
- Men, you're lucky men. Soon, you'll all be fighting for your planet. Many of you will be dying for your planet. A few of you will be put through a fine mesh screen for your planet. They will be the luckiest of all.
Aerethan wrote: It's basic economics: if an unskilled teenager can do your job just as well as you with all of 2 weeks training, you don't deserve more money, you need a new job.
It's a really important point that economics would never use the term 'deserve'. It may seem like I'm being pedantic but it's probably the biggest mistake most people make in economics. 'Deserve' belongs in economics as much as it belongs in physics.
There are plenty of jobs out there that pay well for entry level work, the difference is that they won't hire any random fool. If you want a good job, the competition will be higher, that is just the nature of our world. You can't demand a raise when Larry is more than willing to take your job for what you already make unless you have some major skill that your employer desires enough to facilitate a raise.
Not really. Because you can, for instance, engage in collective action. Just for some reason people freak out when workers do this and call it collective action, but don't freak out when companies do this and call it horizontal integration.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Should someone be paid $15/hr to work a McJob? Absolutely not, because for every self entitled worker demanding that kind of pay there are 5 high school or college kids who would gladly take the job at minimum wage because it's better than the money they aren't making at the job they don't have.
I highly doubt they would take such a job "gladly".
Also, you imply that "dirty jobs" shouldn't be stigmatized, but everything you have posted has attached a stigma to people who work those jobs.
My employees make $10/hr starting. It's data entry at home doing insurance settlement evaluation. If they are good at at over time, the pay caps out at $12/hr. Not a ton of money, but it's also only part time and it's from home so you can't expect a huge paycheck for it. The next step up however is a major upgrade. Our sales people make 12/hr base or 25% of their monthly profit. Most reps earn the company 15-20k per month, which means they take home $23-31/hr before taxes. Usually takes reps 2 months to learn the process and they are on their way. Last month we had a rep earn 29k in his second month, netting him $45/hr for that month. And this job doesn't require a degree beyond high school(although it may help get an interview). Plenty of reps were hired on referral from other employees and many of them did not go to college. And nothing in college would have taught them the skills to do this job at all. It's all basic math and salesmanship.
That sounds disturbingly like a Vector pitch.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
It is a fast food chain, but it's more local than the likes of McDonalds and Burger King, fethers won't even bring their tasty burgers to the midwest
That was the one of the best things about my trip to Vegas (I was 19, couldn't drink, couldn't gamble, couldn't really do much), was that I finally got to go to In-N-Out burger.
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hotsauceman1 wrote: In n' out is highly over rated, their fries are terrible and they refuse to put bacon on things
I'm okay with them not putting bacon on things, most fast food places don't do bacon right, so you get this limp-dick thing that looks like bacon and tastes like cardboard, or you get a charred strip of meat.
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Should someone be paid $15/hr to work a McJob? Absolutely not, because for every self entitled worker demanding that kind of pay there are 5 high school or college kids who would gladly take the job at minimum wage because it's better than the money they aren't making at the job they don't have.
The ONLY adults that should be working low end retail and service jobs are those who are supervisors and perhaps the odd person trying to get a second start at things. Instead, I've seen the same grown ass dude working at a local Wendy's for the last 10 years, still not in charge of anything other than taking orders.
It's basic economics: if an unskilled teenager can do your job just as well as you with all of 2 weeks training, you don't deserve more money, you need a new job.
Here's some more "basic" economics for you;
Inflation exists. Making $15/hour today is not the same as making $15/hour 20 years ago.
McDonalds just gave their CEO a $5 million/year raise.
It costs a certain amount to survive in today's world. If you're so against full-time jobs being required to pay that amount, where do you think the shortfall should come from?
Government assistance? So you think that the government should be subsidizing the bottom line of companies that continue to record record profits?
Or perhaps you don't think food stamps should exist either? Maybe the people who flip your burgers for you deserve to starve.
A $15/hour minimum wage wouldn't cripple any business. Costco pays their employees more than that and are doing pretty well - their customer satisfaction is far higher than that of Walmart. Maybe they don't have gaudy profit margins, but I don't think that giving more cash to the Waltons and having my taxes pay their workers is a good system.
Should someone be paid $15/hr to work a McJob? Absolutely not, because for every self entitled worker demanding that kind of pay there are 5 high school or college kids who would gladly take the job at minimum wage because it's better than the money they aren't making at the job they don't have.
I highly doubt they would take such a job "gladly".
Also, you imply that "dirty jobs" shouldn't be stigmatized, but everything you have posted has attached a stigma to people who work those jobs.
I know growing up, and having applied to multiple fast food places back in my home town, even in school, I was unable to get a job for many reasons. I personally view jobs like McDs, Taco Bell, etc. to be "starter jobs", and theyre minimum wage for a very good reason.
I also don't think that "dirty jobs" as such are stigmatized. The jobs that have been have done so because of the typical people who work them. In many ways, working Fast Food at 30 almost should come with a stigma (at least, outside of military towns). Same thing if you are working as a gas station attendant, in a movie theater, etc. but are not management, quite often times, something has gone wrong.
StyleXHobby wrote: If you go to college or university follow you dreams, and study what interests you. If you work hard enough things will work out in the end. follow your dreams, not the cash!
Said naive people everywhere.
I agree. My favorite naive person is Alan Watts.
That's lovely. Money, however does matter. So does innate intelligence and ability.
But keep on living in fantasyville.
His point is somewhat overdone, IMO. However, I do believe that it's likely that you won't be much of a success in a career that you hate. Furthermore, if you love/like a particular career, your chances of success are likely higher than those of the guy who's ambivalent about it or worse.
There are at least two reasons for this. One is that you'll probably apply yourself better in a field you enjoy. Another is that if you bring some energy/interest/enthusiasm to the table, you're much more likely to be kept or promoted over someone who's a miserable wretch or just kinda there.
In my experience, most people dramatically overrate their ability level and success, and dramatically underrate the ease with which they can be replaced in an organization. Personality, enthusiasm, team play, etc. count much more than many people realize, and there are good reasons for this.
My employees make $10/hr starting. It's data entry at home doing insurance settlement evaluation. If they are good at at over time, the pay caps out at $12/hr. Not a ton of money, but it's also only part time and it's from home so you can't expect a huge paycheck for it. The next step up however is a major upgrade. Our sales people make 12/hr base or 25% of their monthly profit. Most reps earn the company 15-20k per month, which means they take home $23-31/hr before taxes. Usually takes reps 2 months to learn the process and they are on their way. Last month we had a rep earn 29k in his second month, netting him $45/hr for that month. And this job doesn't require a degree beyond high school(although it may help get an interview). Plenty of reps were hired on referral from other employees and many of them did not go to college. And nothing in college would have taught them the skills to do this job at all. It's all basic math and salesmanship.
That sounds disturbingly like a Vector pitch.
It also sounds like an object lesson why people should get a college degree or specialized training.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/16 15:09:14
Seriously, history is interesting, and I read wikipedia compulsively, but a history degree is a good way to get a job as a waiter.
Interestingly, as a spoilt expat bratty kid from Dubai, I get the chance to speak to several executives, and what they say is actually quite interesting. There was this one guy who said that he wouldn't look at business/commerce majors (unless it's from a good university) because lots of people have them. For example, apparently in Australia there's 10,000 students studying business at universities across the country. He likes history degrees because the skills learnt in a history degree can be transferred to business. It was because of the analytical skills required or something like that. Same reason why he likes Classics students, but they're a dying breed. He himself did PPE.
Seriously, history is interesting, and I read wikipedia compulsively, but a history degree is a good way to get a job as a waiter.
Interestingly, as a spoilt expat bratty kid from Dubai, I get the chance to speak to several executives, and what they say is actually quite interesting. There was this one guy who said that he wouldn't look at business/commerce majors (unless it's from a good university) because lots of people have them. For example, apparently in Australia there's 10,000 students studying business at universities across the country. He likes history degrees because the skills learnt in a history degree can be transferred to business. It was because of the analytical skills required or something like that. Same reason why he likes Classics students, but they're a dying breed. He himself did PPE.
Yeah, there's quite a few places here in the States that regard history degrees fairly highly. And you touch on a tiny portion of it (in the analytical skills), but the biggest factor is in the Research Skills. I myself am a history major, and about 80% of my course work is within the field. Each course ALWAYS has a minimum of one research paper, and the ones Ive done that have required more, each paper MUST be separate and different from the others (so you cant start with a small subject, and expand on it with the big research paper). So, knowing not only what to research but actually HOW to do so, things like research strategies, resources, etc. are really the biggest takeaways from non-doctorate level history degrees.
Seriously, history is interesting, and I read wikipedia compulsively, but a history degree is a good way to get a job as a waiter.
Interestingly, as a spoilt expat bratty kid from Dubai, I get the chance to speak to several executives, and what they say is actually quite interesting. There was this one guy who said that he wouldn't look at business/commerce majors (unless it's from a good university) because lots of people have them. For example, apparently in Australia there's 10,000 students studying business at universities across the country. He likes history degrees because the skills learnt in a history degree can be transferred to business. It was because of the analytical skills required or something like that. Same reason why he likes Classics students, but they're a dying breed. He himself did PPE.
I've had job interviews in which the interviewer commented on my rhetoric background in college. It doesn't come up much just because I've been out of school for so long. But I heartily endorse it and explain that there are things that Aristotle said that absolutely apply to modern advertising. It's all just persuasion, after all, and our programming hasn't fundamentally changed in the last 2000+ years.
If you can get the interview, the rest is often more about how you can sell yourself as someone who'll help them meet their goals. It's a bit of a juggling act -- talking about yourself, but keep bringing it back to THEM and THEIR needs.
One of the strengths of a liberal arts degree is that you can morph it into what you need. Another is that (assuming you've had a good education) you should have gained some experience with critical thinking, analysis, making conclusions, etc.
My graduate degree isn't an MBA, but I took some MBA classes, and honestly I felt like I was a little better than some of my classmates at doing broad analysis, drawing conclusions, and determining next steps. They were mostly better working with numbers, but often it's not about doing calculations but understanding the overall business situation and *applying* those numbers. I didn't feel out of place in that regard, even with my "squishy" liberal arts degree.
Currently doing my third masters degree (this one is being paid for as part of a professional training scheme while working). I most certainly would not have even got an interview for this job if i had not gone back and done a second MSc to make up for the time out of the area i took between now and graduating the first time.
University level education is certainly very important for some jobs and fields and thr skills you should learn in any degree will hold you well in many areas such as critical thinking, research skills, etc.
But there is definately a point where you have to stop shoving people through university and take stock of what you are doing and why. Trade schools should be massively important and yet they are not.
The problem now, especially since the banks took a giant dump on everyone, is that even basic entry level graduate jobs now require a higher quality degree and 2-5 years experience... for what should be a job for graduates to get on graduating. With cut downs in staff sizes, there are those skilled people to fill those jobs, leading recent graduates nothing they can go for...
It is a fast food chain, but it's more local than the likes of McDonalds and Burger King, fethers won't even bring their tasty burgers to the midwest
Yes, that makes it regional. Much like Steak 'n Shake or Culver's.
Where do they not have Steak 'n Shakes?! I thought those fethers were almost as prolific as McDonalds... Dogma, why do you wish to destroy my world view?
Edit: WTF is a Culver's?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/16 16:23:47
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I also don't think that "dirty jobs" as such are stigmatized. The jobs that have been have done so because of the typical people who work them. In many ways, working Fast Food at 30 almost should come with a stigma (at least, outside of military towns). Same thing if you are working as a gas station attendant, in a movie theater, etc. but are not management, quite often times, something has gone wrong.
But that determination should be left to that person. If something has gone wrong in their life, then they almost certainly know. There is no need to make such a person feel worse, while simultaneously judging people who didn't end up in similar positions by way of mistakes.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
I was a mechanic at a dealership, then i went to college to become a paramedic and on to the firedepartment. I made more most years as a mechanic. However, i do enjoy my work now much more and college opened that door for me. Of course i'm still paying off a large school loan for my time at the university.
In my experience its work ethic that produces better work and over time a higher income.
Where do they not have Steak 'n Shakes?! I thought those fethers were almost as prolific as McDonalds... Dogma, why do you wish to destroy my world view?
Edit: WTF is a Culver's?
To my knowledge Steak 'n Shakes don't exist on the West Coast.
Also, this is Culver's. Think Dairy Queen if Dairy Queen didn't suck.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
The problem now, especially since the banks took a giant dump on everyone, is that even basic entry level graduate jobs now require a higher quality degree and 2-5 years experience... for what should be a job for graduates to get on graduating. With cut downs in staff sizes, there are those skilled people to fill those jobs, leading recent graduates nothing they can go for...
Wow. May as well blame bush too. What an ignorant statement.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/16 16:54:04
McDonalds just gave their CEO a $5 million/year raise.
.
Which has absolutely zero bearing on how much a person that dumps frozen food into a fryer should make.
They should get a 5 dollar an hour bump based on how much you dislike fried food after working a fryer for several hours a day. I've worked a fryer 3 times in my life, and I couldn't touch fried foods for a week after each time...
Where do they not have Steak 'n Shakes?! I thought those fethers were almost as prolific as McDonalds... Dogma, why do you wish to destroy my world view?
Edit: WTF is a Culver's?
To my knowledge Steak 'n Shakes don't exist on the West Coast.
Also, this is Culver's. Think Dairy Queen if Dairy Queen didn't suck.
Interesting, I shall have to try this Culver's...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/16 16:54:38
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Where do they not have Steak 'n Shakes?! I thought those fethers were almost as prolific as McDonalds... Dogma, why do you wish to destroy my world view?
Edit: WTF is a Culver's?
To my knowledge Steak 'n Shakes don't exist on the West Coast.
Also, this is Culver's. Think Dairy Queen if Dairy Queen didn't suck.
Interesting, I shall have to try this Culver's...
I and my belly can vouch for Culver's... .great example of goodfast food.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/16 16:57:07
I did say that In 'N Out was LOCAL. Sadly they are not across the country.
I agree that CEO pay has no actual bearing on entry level pay. My point about McDonalds has more to do with them only offering what they pay for burger flippers compared to a company that is by and large immensely successful doing the EXACT same job differently and paying better.
Let's go one further. Costco. More or less the same business model as Wal Mart and Sam's Club: buy and sell in bulk at a lower % and make it up in volume. Costco meanwhile starts at something like $12/hr, the average employee pay is $17/hr, they only hire full time that I'm aware of, and their CEO refuses to take any bonuses or raises(despite push from other companies to do so). And that company is also wildly successful.
I agree that "deserve" is not the right word. Perhaps "entitled to" is more appropriate. People can feel they deserve whatever, but in reality they are not entitled to that same thing.
If McDonalds wants to change their company around to be more like In 'N Out(whether you like them or not, you cannot deny their success at quality fast food) then sure, pay McJobs more. While they are still selling bleach burgers and Glue Nuggets, they are not worth me paying more(or anything since I don't eat there) and if their product is crap they have to charge less, and if they charge less they pay less.
I maintain that McJobs are for children. If the Waste Management guys want more money, that I feel could be argued to a certain point as it's not some menial task that really isn't important. It's a vital service to communities, and I tip my hat to those that do it and feel they should be paid appropriately.
To that same end though, look at EMT's. The make on average $9/hr, and they are saving people's lives. You don't see them picketing on the street refusing to work because they want more money. Most of the career medics go to school to advance their careers and make more money, like grown ups.
"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
This is interesting, My Proff and I had a conversation. She said some interesting things, like college can be for everyone if they have realistic expectations, She sees to many students come in, think they will get their dream job with a single degree and no work(She said this is especially true for science majors and art majors) and that if there was more transperency alot more would get done.
That video is amazing. Work smart AND hard is lost on lots of people.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/16 17:40:26
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Culvers is awsome but slightly evil (CURSE YOU INCONVENIENT LOCATION(s)) i get an order of onion rings there once a week when im done donating plasma for the second time
cincydooley wrote: Wow. May as well blame bush too. What an ignorant statement.
Rightyo...
I'll just ignore the experience of the large number of people I graduated with in 2008 and onwards then... one of the contributary factors for new graduate employment rates dropping post 2008-ish was more experienced workers who had been let go from elsewhere taking the entry level jobs that would normally have gone to graduates, having a knock on effect on graduate employment.
And when I first started employing for jobs in 2007/8, the graduate level jobs were all asking for "degree in field X, of level Y"... from 2009 onwards they all wanted at least 2 years experience, for the same job.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/16 18:38:46
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5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
Another is that (assuming you've had a good education) you should have gained some experience with critical thinking, analysis, making conclusions, etc.
or he will find you and eat you in your sleep!