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Been awhile Dakka Dakka...how I sorta missed ya. Any who onto the topic....

1.I'm a proud Space Wolf player who loves pretty much everything about em. Dig what they usually stand for and love their fluff. Can't get enough of it. Now in other threads I've argued funny enough with at least three of the current posters to this thread. Which gentlemen nice to see ya again for a possible repeating session of bashing heads into one another.

2. I'll openly say this while I'll passionately defend Space Wolves at the drop of a hat I can also rip em a new one and know their faults. I don't like Rune Priest on the table top. Or to be exact I don't like how people see them. I don't like how people place them so high up in comparison to the other choices and usually for competitive reasons. Which I'll say now...Me and competitive people never get along and it usually always comes down to a full blown argument. Especially when Math-hammer is brought in. But while I don't like them I don't think they really needed to lose their powers and pretty much agree with the supporters who brought up the quick ways to fix them and make them still good while also making them 7th Edition friendly.

Are they OP? To be honest they only seem like[WARNING THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT DOESN'T GO OUT TO ALL BUT THE FEW WHO DO MORE COMPLAINING THEN ANY OTHER. WHO SAY THE SAME THING BELIEVING IT TO BEING UNSTOPPABLE WHEN IN REALTY IT REALLY ISN'T. WHILE ALSO NOT BEING GAME BREAKING. END OF DISCLAIMER] that to those who have an army that banks on Psychic shenanigans and are overly competitive and focus way too much to that aspect of the game. But not everyone sees it like that and hey I'll openly say that yeah I can see how it was a bit much. Yet still there are things far worse in the game and yet there isn't as much hate. Hmmm I sooooo wonder why...

3.12 Great Companies each, as said in the 5th edition Codex, having different number of marines in them. Enough to where each Great Company, as further illiustarted by later released of info could be considered their own chapters due to their sizes and how self efficient each was. So no there isn't just aroun 200 or so in each. it has gone to 500 and above while also yes having the already established amount for some of the companies. While they aren't at the Black Templar level Space Wolves do have a decent number without being below or monstrously above another chapter. This I'm willing to agree with Psienesis about thanks to the novels and preexisting battles with the Months of Shame & Battle of the Fang. These having yes killed off most of the Rune Priests along with a good number of ships and Wolves while also killing off a lot of GKs as well.

4.The whole SM+1 stick is sorta getting old now. Normal Marines have a good number of stuff as an old argument has already established while also being in an endless loop. They are both still +3 save armys that have more or less the same stuff and, while Space Wolves have their one trick puppys, SM have their ice cream truck full of different flavors. To deny that would be ignorant and complete disregard for SM and just proving to be on a vendetta against the wolves.

5. is the hobby truly dying to where people want and support the lack of flavor among SM? BA? DA? SW? Why does the SW have to be brought in line with normal Liberians? While do SW have to be brought in line with their brothers? The purpose of different chapters is more then just for the game aspet, it's also for the narrative and fun that others enjoy. Competitive play is no way to look at an army or to build a HOBBY on. SWs losing flavor would kill it for many. So while yeah I don't play RP all that much and actually prefer Logan, Arjac, Ulrik, Bjorn, Njal and soon Ragnar and Canis and hopefully Lukas. Fact is SWs still have their fangs and claws. So they lost a tooth...this wolf still has plenty of teeth and it just means hey find a new way to play! I'll miss the powers...I liked em...But they weren't really what defined the Wolves. The fluff, aspect and means of how they do battle was what shaped them. So if we can't have crazy storms and stuff who cares? We'll bring the storm with Bolter fire and charging Wolves big enough to eat a tank!

Back to Poster: I'm agreeing with one of the former posters in I want to see more viking stuff in the SW. See them, BA and Orks bring the Assault back to 40K while also finding a good center ground between the Psychic Phase, Shooting and Assault. For the Wolves to be the Jack of All trades and have plenty of fun fluffy and for those who thrive on it yes even some competitive options. I think yes the Rune Priest stuff was a bit crazy but it didn't need to get hit like it did. Yes it robs us of fluff. But we still have other viable options and it's not impossible for us to fight. Just means some people who relied heavily on Jotww will have to find a new trick. Those that used different powers I feel for ya but hey there are tables that can give you the same and hey forge the narrative like GW says! Make up your own head cannon for what your Priest is doing! This hole RP thing is a bump. SW are still playable and viable and for some people they'll just need to find new tactics. We do still have plenty of fluff and flavorful characters after all.

End of Input.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
The thousand sons being a 1000 strong has been retconned, the raven guard are categorically stated as being the smallest legion at 80,000 marines, so Pre heresy wolves had more than that, so did thousand sons, it remains to be seen if it's a mistake and will be.changed back.

Not ret-conned, exactly. They began as a full-size legion like all the rest, but due to the Flesh Change, casualties, and other calamities, there were several points in their history where they numbered only 1000 Marines.

It's not like the Legion was ever only 1000 Marines, no more no less, it's just that life was not at all kind to the the Sons, and so they suffered heavy losses, rebuilt, and then suffered heavy losses... again and again and again.

Yeah that's the way I see it, people seem to hold the belief that they were 1k forever, that makes no sense and fw thankfully have fixes that, remains to be seen foe how long though.

My problem isn't the fact they took the powers, it's more of when they took the powers. All those other codex books have their codex powers AND the core rule powers. SW should have gotten to keep the powers until their updated codex came out.

All this will be null void though if the codex is the next out.

See here is the thing, I don't think SW will be getting an updated codex any time soon. If the Wolves were getting a codex this year don't you think the FAQ would have been less brutal?

Look at the previous FAQ, that one allowed RPs to roll on powers from the same charts as Libbys, and it kept their SW powers. Could have just added in the Daemonology trait and been done with it. Unless of course you don't have any plans to update the Wolves yet, then you do kind of have to do something to make them more compatible with the new psyker phase, because after all, it's going to be on the backburner for awhile.

I'm sorry to say it but I think this FAQ means that we won't be seeing a new dex for any of the FAQ'd Factions... say that a few times out loud, for at least a year or so. Why FAQ the next project, unless it's some form of psuedo-playtesting...

To respond to Wolf Lord Kevin, I agree with what you're saying, but honestly I just can't get behind the idea that ANY of the SW powers were all that impressive. I mean, yes they were okay and situations made certain spells awesome, but on the whole I can't say they had any definitive edge over any other psyker.

Plus, and correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Rune Priests subject to the same "no cookie cutter copies" rule that encompasses all SW HQs and Characters? This would mean that if some one is running 2 RPs, they would have had to choose entirely different powers from one another, so no 2x Jaws!

darkcloak wrote:
Plus, and correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Rune Priests subject to the same "no cookie cutter copies" rule that encompasses all SW HQs and Characters? This would mean that if some one is running 2 RPs, they would have had to choose entirely different powers from one another, so no 2x Jaws!

Jaws and Living Lightning on one, Jaws and Murderous Hurricane on the other. Not the same loadout, so completely legal.

darkcloak wrote:
See here is the thing, I don't think SW will be getting an updated codex any time soon. If the Wolves were getting a codex this year don't you think the FAQ would have been less brutal?

Look at the previous FAQ, that one allowed RPs to roll on powers from the same charts as Libbys, and it kept their SW powers. Could have just added in the Daemonology trait and been done with it. Unless of course you don't have any plans to update the Wolves yet, then you do kind of have to do something to make them more compatible with the new psyker phase, because after all, it's going to be on the backburner for awhile.

I'm sorry to say it but I think this FAQ means that we won't be seeing a new dex for any of the FAQ'd Factions... say that a few times out loud, for at least a year or so. Why FAQ the next project, unless it's some form of psuedo-playtesting...

To respond to Wolf Lord Kevin, I agree with what you're saying, but honestly I just can't get behind the idea that ANY of the SW powers were all that impressive. I mean, yes they were okay and situations made certain spells awesome, but on the whole I can't say they had any definitive edge over any other psyker.

Plus, and correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Rune Priests subject to the same "no cookie cutter copies" rule that encompasses all SW HQs and Characters? This would mean that if some one is running 2 RPs, they would have had to choose entirely different powers from one another, so no 2x Jaws!

They released an FAQ because they haven't released a new Codex yet, simply put. Sure, they could release one a week from now, but until then players need an FAQ in order to actually play with their army. FAQs seem to be written by a different set of writers too - I remember the first 6th FAQ gave Kharn the Betrayer a power axe (so hit at I1). Less than a month later, Kharn was back to swinging at his regular initiative with his super power axe. There's no real future logic to an FAQ than to patch the current book for the time being... otherwise FAQs would change points values on all our units and equipment to keep them balanced.

Glad to see it and jotww gone. Staff was basically 5th psychic hood. Should have been changed in 6th.

3.12 Great Companies each, as said in the 5th edition Codex, having different number of marines in them. Enough to where each Great Company, as further illiustarted by later released of info could be considered their own chapters due to their sizes and how self efficient each was. So no there isn't just aroun 200 or so in each. it has gone to 500 and above while also yes having the already established amount for some of the companies. While they aren't at the Black Templar level Space Wolves do have a decent number without being below or monstrously above another chapter

The second biggest in size is "Almost 200" in the current era, which is Ragnar Blackmanes Great Company (As listed in Codex Space Wolves), thus by logical deduction aside from the 1st size of Logan Grimnar's Company, the rest are below "almost 200" listed in the codex itself.

Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:3.12 Great Companies each, as said in the 5th edition Codex, having different number of marines in them. Enough to where each Great Company, as further illiustarted by later released of info could be considered their own chapters due to their sizes and how self efficient each was. So no there isn't just aroun 200 or so in each. it has gone to 500 and above while also yes having the already established amount for some of the companies. While they aren't at the Black Templar level Space Wolves do have a decent number without being below or monstrously above another chapter. This I'm willing to agree with Psienesis about thanks to the novels and preexisting battles with the Months of Shame & Battle of the Fang. These having yes killed off most of the Rune Priests along with a good number of ships and Wolves while also killing off a lot of GKs as well.

As pointed out above, the second-largest GC is noted as having 200 Marines (that's Ragnar's GC). Even if we are very generous and give 10 of the remaining 11 GCs 199 Marines each, and give the Great Wolf's GC over twice as many Marines as the second-largest GC (giving Logan 500 Marines in his GC... which is laughably overstating its numbers, but stick with me here)...

We end up with 2690 Space Wolves. That's 2.5 Chapters worth of Marines... but we know that this is an over-inflated number of Wolves if we're given the example of "second-largest" Great Company being 200 Marines. It is far more likely that the 10 GCs smaller than Ragnar's number around 100 Marines (otherwise, having 200 wouldn't seem so impressive), 150 at the most. We're not given a headcount for Logan's Great Company, but let's be generous and give him 300 Marines.

So let's continue to be generous, and go with 150 Marines per GC, plus 200 in Ragnars, plus 300 in Logan's... and we get 2000 Space Wolves. That's twice the size of any Codex-adherent Chapter... but it's definitely nowhere near Black Templars headcount, and, even without the losses of their "recent" actions, the numbers we're provided simply don't support the idea that each Great Company gets anywhere near 1000 Space Wolves at a time.

It is far more likely that the 10 GCs smaller than Ragnar's number around 100 Marines (otherwise, having 200 wouldn't seem so impressive), 150 at the most. We're not given a headcount for Logan's Great Company, but let's be generous and give him 300 Marines.

Actually there were mentioned at times to be around 50 in some of the stories, though I've heard as low as 10.

So I estimate about around 1500 myself, maybe 1750.

And they'd still be lower then most chaos warbands.

But yeah, I'm in support of them losing their unique psyker abilities.