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Yeah, the Rune Priest was pretty ridiculous, especially considering how many a SW player could take and the fact that, even without the staff, it's still a great model.

I don't agree with getting rid of the Codex powers, but that's more of a thematic thing rather than "oh you nerfed them too hard".

Also, to hijack the thread with the question - one that also applies elsewhere: if a model has +1 to Deny the Witch Rolls (like the RP does now) does that affect all DtW rolls made by the controlling player so long as that model is alive, or does it only affect powers cast on the model or its unit?

 The Shadow wrote:
Yeah, the Rune Priest was pretty ridiculous, especially considering how many a SW player could take and the fact that, even without the staff, it's still a great model.

I don't agree with getting rid of the Codex powers, but that's more of a thematic thing rather than "oh you nerfed them too hard".

Also, to hijack the thread with the question - one that also applies elsewhere: if a model has +1 to Deny the Witch Rolls (like the RP does now) does that affect all DtW rolls made by the controlling player so long as that model is alive, or does it only affect powers cast on the model or its unit?

The rule states that "A model with a Runic Weapon adds 1 to Deny The Witch rolls." I'm fairly certain that means that it applies tom *his* Deny The Witch rolls, but RAW it could definitely be interpreted that 'A model with a Runic Weapon adds 1 to any Deny The Witch Rolls' as much as it could 'A model with a Runic Weapon adds 1 to his Deny The Witch Rolls'.
And since there's no rule saying that this doesn't stack, it might actually be smart to buy a half dozen Rune Priests for a 1+ Deny The Witch across the board. (Or 2+, since 1s always fail.) Buy them all +1 Mastery Level, add some allied Grey Knights or Inquisition for even more Warp Charges, and ignore every Psychic Power cast on the board with ease. (This might be a counter for Daemon Factories!)

It's cheesy as hell, and I seriously doubt that is what it's supposed to mean, but technically that does seem to be how it is written.

EDIT: If you look at Njal's power, it doesn't help much for RAW but does with RAI. It says it grants Njal an additional +1, for a total of +2. This implies that the bonus was supposed to apply specifically to the model with the Runic Weapon, but it could always mean that everyone has a +1, but he specifically gets a +2.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Thats true. Now what direction do people see SW going in for the future? With a new codex that isn't even rumored yet, what do you think?

Ultimately, I want to see them fully embrace their Vikings In Spaaaaaaace! roots. I love the over-the-top units like Thunderwolf cavalry and think it fits the fluff (its assaulty, its primative, its wolfy). I'd prefer the Rune Priests be mainly for denying other psykers instead of being offensive powerhouses on top of the defensive capabilities. Make their powers primarily as buffs to confound or prevent enemy psychics. I'd prefer to see a more close quarters focus for the army, with a bit of ruthless cunning to go with it (maybe more infiltrating units or something that grants stealth/shroud?) . I hope there is some sort of rule that reflects their tendacy to not work well with others, that would impact allies in some way. And since they don't follow the Codex Astartes, make some of the squad sizes larger (a blob of 20-30 blood claws would actually make them work!).

Finally, make the sagas actually mean something. Roll for them at the beginning of the game, rerolling those that have no impact to the army being faced (no MCs? Reroll the one that gives Monster Hunter). If the saga is failed, your opponent gains 1 VP, if its successful, you gain 1 VP.

While the SW are not a Codex Adherent Chapter, in practice, this doesn't mean much. With what we're given in the previous mentions of the Great Companies, there's not that many more SW than there are in a Codex Adherent Chapter. The second-largest GC is noted as having like 200 Battle Brothers in it, and there being only 10 GCs, you end up with having just over 2000 Space Wolves... and that is working under the very liberal estimate that 8 of the remaining 9 GCs have 199 Marines apiece (which is probably not at all accurate), while Logan's GC is the largest and has 300 Marines (which is, again, a number pulled out of thin air, Logan's GC could be only 201 Marines... or it could be 1000 on its own, but that is exceedingly unlikely). (199 x 8 + 200 + 300 = 2092).

In reality, with more conservative estimates on the sizes of the Great Companies (including those we are given specific headcounts for), there's probably only 1300-1500 Space Wolves in the entire Chapter.

So, on the outside, the SW are nearly 1/3rd the suspected total strength of the Black Templars... but in reality, they are probably roughly 1 and 1/2 the size of a regular, Codex Adherent Chapter.

Psienies: There are 12 companies, not 10.

 Psienesis wrote:
While the SW are not a Codex Adherent Chapter, in practice, this doesn't mean much. With what we're given in the previous mentions of the Great Companies, there's not that many more SW than there are in a Codex Adherent Chapter. The second-largest GC is noted as having like 200 Battle Brothers in it, and there being only 10 GCs, you end up with having just over 2000 Space Wolves... and that is working under the very liberal estimate that 8 of the remaining 9 GCs have 199 Marines apiece (which is probably not at all accurate), while Logan's GC is the largest and has 300 Marines (which is, again, a number pulled out of thin air, Logan's GC could be only 201 Marines... or it could be 1000 on its own, but that is exceedingly unlikely). (199 x 8 + 200 + 300 = 2092).

In reality, with more conservative estimates on the sizes of the Great Companies (including those we are given specific headcounts for), there's probably only 1300-1500 Space Wolves in the entire Chapter.

So, on the outside, the SW are nearly 1/3rd the suspected total strength of the Black Templars... but in reality, they are probably roughly 1 and 1/2 the size of a regular, Codex Adherent Chapter.

Interesting, but how does this have to do with the RP and how it affects Wolves moving forward. Would just like to keep the thread on topic.

 Psienesis wrote:
While the SW are not a Codex Adherent Chapter, in practice, this doesn't mean much. With what we're given in the previous mentions of the Great Companies, there's not that many more SW than there are in a Codex Adherent Chapter. The second-largest GC is noted as having like 200 Battle Brothers in it, and there being only 10 GCs, you end up with having just over 2000 Space Wolves... and that is working under the very liberal estimate that 8 of the remaining 9 GCs have 199 Marines apiece (which is probably not at all accurate), while Logan's GC is the largest and has 300 Marines (which is, again, a number pulled out of thin air, Logan's GC could be only 201 Marines... or it could be 1000 on its own, but that is exceedingly unlikely). (199 x 8 + 200 + 300 = 2092).

In reality, with more conservative estimates on the sizes of the Great Companies (including those we are given specific headcounts for), there's probably only 1300-1500 Space Wolves in the entire Chapter.

So, on the outside, the SW are nearly 1/3rd the suspected total strength of the Black Templars... but in reality, they are probably roughly 1 and 1/2 the size of a regular, Codex Adherent Chapter.

Sorry to continue the off-topic subject, but weren't the Space Wolves one of the larger legions on the Heresy era and they weren't broken up like all of the others afterwards. What the heck happened to them all??? Are they just really that much slower at finding recruits?

Probably lose lots of Blood Claws.

Poll seems pretty clear, 2/3 (66%) of people voting it was OP

Whether or not it still was, with how it owned 5th ed, you couldn't have expected a very different reaction.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Psienies: There are 12 companies, not 10.

Even with 12 GC, that only adds, at most, another 398 Marines (199 x 2). So we're still in "maybe twice, three times as big as a Codex Chapter", definitely not edging into BT territory.

ClassicCarraway wrote: Sorry to continue the off-topic subject, but weren't the Space Wolves one of the larger legions on the Heresy era and they weren't broken up like all of the others afterwards. What the heck happened to them all??? Are they just really that much slower at finding recruits?

Larger legions? No. The Space Wolves have never been as huge as some of the really big ones (like UM). They definitely weren't plagued with problems like the Thousand Sons (which often only had 1000 Marines in the whole Legion at various parts of the GC and the Heresy) though, so weren't, like, a tiny legion. The main problem was that their geneseed never worked in anything other than a native Fenrisian, which is not a densely populated planet.

It should also be noted that the SW suffered some pretty serious casualties during the GC, the Heresy, the Burning of Prospero, the Battle of the Fang, their war with the GK, and probably more than a few with their snit with the Ecclesiarchy, and suffered the loss of the entire 13th Company and any attempt to make more Wolves out of non-Fenrisians. They just can't replace their losses that quickly, because they are limited to the population of a single world, one which cannot and does not support a large population (being a bunch of Feral Vikings that live on unstable islands that drift in seas populated by man-eating creatures, and what other land-masses exist are also populate by man-eating creatures... and other violent Feral Vikings who want nothing more than to raid your village, kill your people, and take your stuff.)

Commander_Farsight wrote:Interesting, but how does this have to do with the RP and how it affects Wolves moving forward. Would just like to keep the thread on topic.

Because someone brought up the fact that they are a non-Codex Adherent Chapter having something to do with the number and power of the Rune Priests. Which... it doesn't, really. Fenris does not breed more psykers than any other Death World in the Imperium. Probably fewer, in fact, given that lots of them probably die when the whole planet goes topsy-turvy, as it does on the regular.

 Psienesis wrote:
Larger legions? No. The Space Wolves have never been as huge as some of the really big ones (like UM). They definitely weren't plagued with problems like the Thousand Sons (which often only had 1000 Marines in the whole Legion at various parts of the GC and the Heresy) though, so weren't, like, a tiny legion. The main problem was that their geneseed never worked in anything other than a native Fenrisian, which is not a densely populated planet.

It should also be noted that the SW suffered some pretty serious casualties during the GC, the Heresy, the Burning of Prospero, the Battle of the Fang, their war with the GK, and probably more than a few with their snit with the Ecclesiarchy, and suffered the loss of the entire 13th Company and any attempt to make more Wolves out of non-Fenrisians. They just can't replace their losses that quickly, because they are limited to the population of a single world, one which cannot and does not support a large population (being a bunch of Feral Vikings that live on unstable islands that drift in seas populated by man-eating creatures, and what other land-masses exist are also populate by man-eating creatures... and other violent Feral Vikings who want nothing more than to raid your village, kill your people, and take your stuff.)

Commander_Farsight wrote:Interesting, but how does this have to do with the RP and how it affects Wolves moving forward. Would just like to keep the thread on topic.

Because someone brought up the fact that they are a non-Codex Adherent Chapter having something to do with the number and power of the Rune Priests. Which... it doesn't, really. Fenris does not breed more psykers than any other Death World in the Imperium. Probably fewer, in fact, given that lots of them probably die when the whole planet goes topsy-turvy, as it does on the regular.

You forgot to add the part where on top of all the violent volcanic reactions, harsh snowstorms, killer animals and other crazy Vikings that want to pillage and kill, that they also have the ritual of giving a newborn an axe and if the baby doesn't clutch on to it right away then he's chucked into the sea because they can't afford weakness even straight from the womb.


Back on topic, I can pretty much agree with everyone saying that the RP needed to get nerfed, I think it could have been done a lot better than taking what was a favourite unit of any Wolves player and dropping it in the toilet. People have already pointed out how easy it would be to alter things like the Rune Staff and codex powers to fit the new Psychic phase.

Personally I like the sound of making Rune Priests a defensive unit. I could definitely live with being able to bring my troops forward to engage my opponent without them being torn apart by psykers on the way.

Apparently a baby up to three months will grab hold of something put in its hand involuntarily, so the axe ritual would be pretty safe.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Apparently a baby up to three months will grab hold of something put in its hand involuntarily, so the axe ritual would be pretty safe.

Perfect. You still get to sound badass without actually having to toss babies in the drink.

[quote=Psienesis 598707 6905243 f1b18bd88cc3cc24f351fc83dc51f5cd.jpg

ClassicCarraway wrote: Sorry to continue the off-topic subject, but weren't the Space Wolves one of the larger legions on the Heresy era and they weren't broken up like all of the others afterwards. What the heck happened to them all??? Are they just really that much slower at finding recruits?

Larger legions? No. The Space Wolves have never been as huge as some of the really big ones (like UM). They definitely weren't plagued with problems like the Thousand Sons (which often only had 1000 Marines in the whole Legion at various parts of the GC and the Heresy) though, so weren't, like, a tiny legion. The main problem was that their geneseed never worked in anything other than a native Fenrisian, which is not a densely populated planet.

It should also be noted that the SW suffered some pretty serious casualties during the GC, the Heresy, the Burning of Prospero, the Battle of the Fang, their war with the GK, and probably more than a few with their snit with the Ecclesiarchy, and suffered the loss of the entire 13th Company and any attempt to make more Wolves out of non-Fenrisians. They just can't replace their losses that quickly, because they are limited to the population of a single world, one which cannot and does not support a large population (being a bunch of Feral Vikings that live on unstable islands that drift in seas populated by man-eating creatures, and what other land-masses exist are also populate by man-eating creatures... and other violent Feral Vikings who want nothing more than to raid your village, kill your people, and take your stuff.)

Ok, I'll bite. I'm a Tau guy. Personally, I think flyers are pretty awesome models. I like the Wolves Drop Pod lists a lot, but is there a reason in their fluff why they don't have ANY flyers?

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Ok, I'll bite. I'm a Tau guy. Personally, I think flyers are pretty awesome models. I like the Wolves Drop Pod lists a lot, but is there a reason in their fluff why they don't have ANY flyers?

No, there isn't. There's one line in the codex about how they don't use Teleport Homers because they like to keep their feet on the ground, but that's it.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Ok, I'll bite. I'm a Tau guy. Personally, I think flyers are pretty awesome models. I like the Wolves Drop Pod lists a lot, but is there a reason in their fluff why they don't have ANY flyers?

No, there isn't. There's one line in the codex about how they don't use Teleport Homers because they like to keep their feet on the ground, but that's it.

In all honesty, the only people who seem to enjoy flight is the swiftclaws cause it makes things more crazy.

Notice how all the speedster stuff is regulated to the younger generation, while the older generation shun even basic jump jets in most cases, I honestly believe they just don't believe it's worthwhile to them.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Ok, I'll bite. I'm a Tau guy. Personally, I think flyers are pretty awesome models. I like the Wolves Drop Pod lists a lot, but is there a reason in their fluff why they don't have ANY flyers?

No, there isn't. There's one line in the codex about how they don't use Teleport Homers because they like to keep their feet on the ground, but that's it.

In all honesty, the only people who seem to enjoy flight is the swiftclaws cause it makes things more crazy.

Notice how all the speedster stuff is regulated to the younger generation, while the older generation shun even basic jump jets in most cases, I honestly believe they just don't believe it's worthwhile to them.

It's because their Codex predates Flyers, that is all. Space Wolves don't like jump packs or teleporting, but they love transport flyers (for examples, see the old Ragnar Space Wolf books or Prospero Burns). I imagine they'll get a shiney Wolf flyer come the new Codex, because there isn't really anywhere else for their model line to go... not that that has ever stopped GW before... *coughCenturionscough*

Good riddance. Hopefully down the line they'll shove space wolves in line and finally fold them into the normal Space Marine Codex, along with Blood Angels. The only space marine faction that has a somewhat valid claim to being its own faction are the Dark Angels, considering they effectively comprise three different army types.

But really, it was about damn time the super special snowflake Rune Priest got slammed.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Good riddance. Hopefully down the line they'll shove space wolves in line and finally fold them into the normal Space Marine Codex, along with Blood Angels. The only space marine faction that has a somewhat valid claim to being its own faction are the Dark Angels, considering they effectively comprise three different army types.

But really, it was about damn time the super special snowflake Rune Priest got slammed.

Bitter much?
Considering that Space Marines can perform 2 of the 3 roles that Dark Angels can, and both Space Wolves and Grey Knights can perform the other one, your argument doesn't help much. (And with unbound, it's saying even less. Every Marine army can go Ravenwing or Deathwing now.) In fact, Dark Angels would bethe easiest army to fold in, in my opinion, though their fluff and unique characters make that a fairly unappealing option.

I am tired of hearing people bitch about 'Special Snowflakes' as far as rules go. Fluff-wise, sure, it gets annoying. Rules-wise, it's boring if nobody gets anything unique. Not to mention, at the time of their release Rine Priests weren't any more 'Special Snowflake' than.Librarians from other chapters. Stronger, maybe, since Jaws was pretty definitely too strong, but not anymore special.

Your statements simply reek of being bitter over losing games or else just anger over not having the most unique and crazy army in the fluff.

I am tired of hearing people bitch about 'Special Snowflakes' as far as rules go. Fluff-wise, sure, it gets annoying. Rules-wise, it's boring if nobody gets anything unique. Not to mention, at the time of their release Rine Priests weren't any more 'Special Snowflake' than.Librarians from other chapters. Stronger, maybe, since Jaws was pretty definitely too strong, but not anymore special.

Special Anti-Daemon sword, stronger psyker hood, special anti-infiltration wargear, all the other optional wargear.

I am tired of hearing people bitch about 'Special Snowflakes' as far as rules go. Fluff-wise, sure, it gets annoying. Rules-wise, it's boring if nobody gets anything unique.

Give something to Xenos and Chaos then instead, they would be massively unique compared to the light differences in Space Marine factions.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Good riddance. Hopefully down the line they'll shove space wolves in line and finally fold them into the normal Space Marine Codex, along with Blood Angels. The only space marine faction that has a somewhat valid claim to being its own faction are the Dark Angels, considering they effectively comprise three different army types.

I was willing to meet you in the middle, until you mentioned Dark Angels. Seriously? They're even easier to fold than Blood Angels. If we're being reasonable, the only Marine Codices that could realistically be folded without losing major flavour/playstyles (eg, no eliminating units or truly unique wargear) would be Dark Angels and Blood Angels.


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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Give something to Xenos and Chaos then instead, they would be massively unique compared to the light differences in Space Marine factions.

If only they would... seriously, I'd like to see some real Chaos love, but that's on GW, not the slowly shrinking loyalist divergent Codices.

Did Rune Priests get nerfed hard? Yeah, they got it pretty darn good, but so did a lot of other things too. Njal is pretty much just a waste of points, no more multiple HQs in one slot, and goodbye to the entire Space Wolf powers page.

I'd say the Wolves took a really stupid hit. Sure they're a cheese factory, but at least they were the most unique Marines and by far some of the best models. Now? I don't think I'd bother with much more than a few Wolf Guard in a diorama box...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I played against a lot of Rune Priests and Njal, and my games were pretty much 50/50, which is good, you don't want to win or lose too often or it gets boring. Honestly I can't say any of the SW powers ever really made me worry except for Jaws and maaybe if Living Lightning was rolling good against a weaker unit, then that would make me cringe but the Geri an Freki power was weak, and so were most other SW powers. Nerfing them now only serves to piss off SW fans. Why bother with a FAQ, just hurry up and write the next codex!

The thousand sons being a 1000 strong has been retconned, the raven guard are categorically stated as being the smallest legion at 80,000 marines, so Pre heresy wolves had more than that, so did thousand sons, it remains to be seen if it's a mistake and will be.changed back.

 Formosa wrote:
The thousand sons being a 1000 strong has been retconned, the raven guard are categorically stated as being the smallest legion at 80,000 marines, so Pre heresy wolves had more than that, so did thousand sons, it remains to be seen if it's a mistake and will be.changed back.

Current fluff did have the thousand sons reduced to 1k, twice.

darkcloak wrote:
Did Rune Priests get nerfed hard? Yeah, they got it pretty darn good, but so did a lot of other things too. Njal is pretty much just a waste of points, no more multiple HQs in one slot, and goodbye to the entire Space Wolf powers page

I couldn't find the no more multiple HQ spot rule change anywhere, could you let me know where you found this?

 RiTides wrote:
Poll seems pretty clear, 2/3 (66%) of people voting it was OP

Whether or not it still was, with how it owned 5th ed, you couldn't have expected a very different reaction.

Tht poll can't account for anything. Most of it is people that prob use MCs or low Inninitive armies and get melted so they think it's OP. Whether it is op or not GW should not have taken the ENTIRE psyik power list from the codex without giving something in return. They literally made an entire codex obsolete because of this one change. It's fine if GW wants to change them, but it should have been changed in the updated codex not the first FAQ to births street.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
The thousand sons being a 1000 strong has been retconned, the raven guard are categorically stated as being the smallest legion at 80,000 marines, so Pre heresy wolves had more than that, so did thousand sons, it remains to be seen if it's a mistake and will be.changed back.

Current fluff did have the thousand sons reduced to 1k, twice.

Not until the end of Prospero, at which point they were reduced to 1k I believe.


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Kal-El wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Poll seems pretty clear, 2/3 (66%) of people voting it was OP

Whether or not it still was, with how it owned 5th ed, you couldn't have expected a very different reaction.

Tht poll can't account for anything. Most of it is people that prob use MCs or low Inninitive armies and get melted so they think it's OP. Whether it is op or not GW should not have taken the ENTIRE psyik power list from the codex without giving something in return. They literally made an entire codex obsolete because of this one change. It's fine if GW wants to change them, but it should have been changed in the updated codex not the first FAQ to births street.

I voted OP, and my main army is Space Wolves. A power which easily slays multiple enemy models without taking into account wounds, eternal warrior, armour saves, etc simply should not exist. As for the psychic charts - they simply do not fit in with the new psychic phase rules. GW expects us to randomly roll for our powers now and get ahold of primaris powers, and that simply cannot be done with the old powers. Divination has been the shizzle all through 6th anyway.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
The thousand sons being a 1000 strong has been retconned, the raven guard are categorically stated as being the smallest legion at 80,000 marines, so Pre heresy wolves had more than that, so did thousand sons, it remains to be seen if it's a mistake and will be.changed back.

Current fluff did have the thousand sons reduced to 1k, twice.

Not until the end of Prospero, at which point they were reduced to 1k I believe.

They were 1k when Magnus joined them. Thus the name.

 Formosa wrote:
The thousand sons being a 1000 strong has been retconned, the raven guard are categorically stated as being the smallest legion at 80,000 marines, so Pre heresy wolves had more than that, so did thousand sons, it remains to be seen if it's a mistake and will be.changed back.

Not ret-conned, exactly. They began as a full-size legion like all the rest, but due to the Flesh Change, casualties, and other calamities, there were several points in their history where they numbered only 1000 Marines.

It's not like the Legion was ever only 1000 Marines, no more no less, it's just that life was not at all kind to the the Sons, and so they suffered heavy losses, rebuilt, and then suffered heavy losses... again and again and again.