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**cincydooley**

RJCarrot wrote:
Sidebar:

People keep talking about raping during war.

Where is this happening? I assume there is a conflict line where people are fighting over. Are people actually venturing into contested territory to get raped? And if the bad guys are coming to town to rape people, why don't they just kill them? Or is the problem that they don't have guns?

Not trolling here, seriously asking, I don't follow stuff from other countries, let alone stuff here at home.... I just can't understand how people can find time to drop trou and get to the rapin while gunfire is a thing.

Rape was actually used as a pretty horrendous weapon of terror during the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia.

I'd say google it, but it's some pretty despicable gak so I wouldn't actually recommend you go read it...

**trexmeyer**

Rape during war has historically occurred for several reasons, intensified sexual desires after killing, as an act of terrorism, and to breed out the native population. It's really the ultimate insult to another people. Not only did you just kill all the men, you raped all the women, and impregnated them with the bastard offspring of the very people that just gutted your husbands, fathers, and brothers.

**dogma**

Not after killing, after fighting; which is the primary reason. Terrorism is secondary, most of the time. And breeding out the population is barely significant at all.

**sirlynchmob**

Bullockist wrote:
I think it needs to be considered that trhe Palestinian people have no part of this (omg it's the one issue I'm serious on ) and suffer accordingly.
Egypt attacked Israel, Israel occupied gaza. 50 years on they are still there. Making the population live like gak.
If that was my country I KNOW where I would be.

You guys from the US . Why is Israel integral to US defence? I believe I read this this week, if not before.
From my point of view Israel is anti- US interest in the region as it gets EVERYONE else offside in the region.
Why support 1 country that gets everyone else in the region offside?

1.
Because the christian fundamentalists in the US wants Israel to rebuild some temple so God can return and start the rapture. Just think of them as a death cult that shows up in large numbers to vote. So Israel gets a free pass no matter what atrocities it is committing, ie bombing yet another school used by the UN as a school and bomb shelter. Because when the rapture happens all the 'good christians' in the states will be taken up to heaven and the jews in Israel will be left behind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Temple
"Third Temple will be rebuilt when the Anti-Christ, often identified as the political leader of a trans-national alliance similar to the European Union or the United Nations, secures a peace treaty between the modern nation of Israel and its neighbours following a global war. The Anti-Christ later uses the temple as a venue for proclaiming himself as God and the long-awaited Messiah, demanding worship from humanity."

2.
A unstable is also a good place to fight a endless series of wars which makes huge profits for those who work in the war industries.

**Ouze**

Medium of Death wrote:
What's going on in this thre...

Oy vey!

These threads only seem to last marginally longer than the cease-fires.

**ZebioLizard2**

Ketara wrote:
Bullockist, you keep stating that Israel is an 'occupying power'.They really aren't, by any possible definition of the word. They do not hold political sway, they have no troops garrisoned there, and they make no claims with regards to owning it.

Israel took the territory temporarily after a war with Egypt some time back. They withdrew all troops, dismantled all settlements, and gave the Palestinians political independence back in 2005.

Whereupon the Palestinian populace turned around and legitimately and democratically elected a Government that had an express manifesto of invading/destroying Israel. So Hamas aren't a fringe group that can be separated from the Palestinians, they won a MAJORITY in an election over there. And having won that election, they then proceeded to stockpile as many missiles as possible, butcher all political rivals within the country, and dig assault tunnels on Israel.

Gaza is not an occupied country with Hamas a plucky minority group of freedom fighters. Gaza is an independent country with an elected government that has declared war on Israel. When the V1's came flying into Britain,(Godwin time) we didn't sit here and talk about how the Nazi's were actually a minority in Germany and worry about the consequences of retaliation upon German citizens. We just threw as many bomber craft back as we could. This is a similar scenario, albeit this time with the side being attacked being considerably better armed than the one doing the attacking.

Just want to point out that the previous Palestinian government political party was far weaker, didn't provide social services (The hama's were providing food and Social Service to the people at the time), and was letting Israel stomp all over certain treaties at the time without a single word.

When the former government is letting your people get stomped on by another, and this other political group (hamas) is giving food, social services, garbage pickup, and other such things. You tend to look at them in a far more glowing light.

**Relapse**

squidhills wrote:
trexmeyer wrote:

Over 2000 nuclear devices have been detonated in the past 60 years. Probably in excess of one hundred in the western United States alone. Fallout appears to be largely a myth.

The majority of those devices were detonated underground, specifically because of concerns about fallout, which is very, very real. There are more than a few cancer-riddled veterans who spent the early 1950s walking toward mushroom clouds who can vouch for that. Also everyone who worked on that John Wayne Genghis Khan movie (filmed on location in a radioactive wasteland!)...

Yep. I live in Utah and the "Downwinders" in St. George have a lot of cancer happening.

http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapters/utah_today/nucleartestingandthedownwinders.html

**Ketara**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Ketara wrote:
Bullockist, you keep stating that Israel is an 'occupying power'.They really aren't, by any possible definition of the word. They do not hold political sway, they have no troops garrisoned there, and they make no claims with regards to owning it.

Israel took the territory temporarily after a war with Egypt some time back. They withdrew all troops, dismantled all settlements, and gave the Palestinians political independence back in 2005.

Whereupon the Palestinian populace turned around and legitimately and democratically elected a Government that had an express manifesto of invading/destroying Israel. So Hamas aren't a fringe group that can be separated from the Palestinians, they won a MAJORITY in an election over there. And having won that election, they then proceeded to stockpile as many missiles as possible, butcher all political rivals within the country, and dig assault tunnels on Israel.

Gaza is not an occupied country with Hamas a plucky minority group of freedom fighters. Gaza is an independent country with an elected government that has declared war on Israel. When the V1's came flying into Britain,(Godwin time) we didn't sit here and talk about how the Nazi's were actually a minority in Germany and worry about the consequences of retaliation upon German citizens. We just threw as many bomber craft back as we could. This is a similar scenario, albeit this time with the side being attacked being considerably better armed than the one doing the attacking.

Just want to point out that the previous Palestinian government political party was far weaker, didn't provide social services (The hama's were providing food and Social Service to the people at the time), and was letting Israel stomp all over certain treaties at the time without a single word.

When the former government is letting your people get stomped on by another, and this other political group (hamas) is giving food, social services, garbage pickup, and other such things. You tend to look at them in a far more glowing light.

I know I'd pick a lack of social services over being used as a human shield. YMMV of course.

**ZebioLizard2**

Ketara wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Ketara wrote:
Bullockist, you keep stating that Israel is an 'occupying power'.They really aren't, by any possible definition of the word. They do not hold political sway, they have no troops garrisoned there, and they make no claims with regards to owning it.

Israel took the territory temporarily after a war with Egypt some time back. They withdrew all troops, dismantled all settlements, and gave the Palestinians political independence back in 2005.

Whereupon the Palestinian populace turned around and legitimately and democratically elected a Government that had an express manifesto of invading/destroying Israel. So Hamas aren't a fringe group that can be separated from the Palestinians, they won a MAJORITY in an election over there. And having won that election, they then proceeded to stockpile as many missiles as possible, butcher all political rivals within the country, and dig assault tunnels on Israel.

Gaza is not an occupied country with Hamas a plucky minority group of freedom fighters. Gaza is an independent country with an elected government that has declared war on Israel. When the V1's came flying into Britain,(Godwin time) we didn't sit here and talk about how the Nazi's were actually a minority in Germany and worry about the consequences of retaliation upon German citizens. We just threw as many bomber craft back as we could. This is a similar scenario, albeit this time with the side being attacked being considerably better armed than the one doing the attacking.

Just want to point out that the previous Palestinian government political party was far weaker, didn't provide social services (The hama's were providing food and Social Service to the people at the time), and was letting Israel stomp all over certain treaties at the time without a single word.

When the former government is letting your people get stomped on by another, and this other political group (hamas) is giving food, social services, garbage pickup, and other such things. You tend to look at them in a far more glowing light.

I know I'd pick a lack of social services over being used as a human shield. YMMV of course.

They weren't exactly in full "Screw the Civilians" mode at the time, they were the "Shining Beacon to the people".

**Da Boss**

Yeah. Hamas are evil extremists, but it was Israeli intransigence that de-legitimised the PLO and resulted in extremists being elected.

Before Israel's (western supported) defeat of the various countries in the region, there were many secular and more liberal states in the region. The creation and support for Israel destabilised the region and caused the uptick of extremism.

That's what happens when sentimentality, religious extremism, and the world's most horrific humanitarian disaster all combine to make some crappy policy choices.

There's probably no hope for the region any more. It's more polarised and extreme now than it was in the 90s, on both sides. I reckon people "pick sides" primarily based on who they find it easier to empathise with.

If Israel was at all serious about peace it would stop settlement expansion in the West Bank and lift the blockade of goods like cement into Gaza though. Hamas are treacherous scum, but all the alternatives to Hamas were systematically undermined by Israel.

**Jihadin**

On June 17, 2010, the Israel cabinet agreed to ease the restrictions on items permitted into the Gaza strip.

List no. 1: Items Subject to Specific Permission

1. Arms and Munitions: forbidden transfer under all circumstances across Israel's frontiers without specific permits - as defined in the Control of Exports Security Order (Arms and Munitions) 5768-2008, and in the Control of Exports Security Order (Missile Equipment) 5768-2008.

2. Dual Use goods and items: liable to be used, side by side with their civilian purposes, for the development, production, installation or enhancement of military capabilities and terrorist capacities. This list comprises:

Items listed under the Wassenaar Arrangement: As specified in the updated (2008) "Wassenaar Arrangement on Export Controls for Arms and Dual Use Goods and Technologies - List of Dual Use Goods and Technologies and Munitions List."

Items whose entry into the PA Areas is controlled based on Israeli legislation: i.e. materials and equipment liable to be used for terror attacks and technology that could be used by terrorists - as defined in the Control of Exports Security Order (Controlled Dual Use Equipment Transferred to the PA Areas) 5768-2008 and in Orders of the OC Central Command.

These lists include, in detail, a range of chemicals used in the production of explosives (including certain fertilizers); specific types of metal profiles; ball bearings; lathes and their parts; composite materials; hunting knives and machetes; optical equipment, such as lasers and night vision goggles; certain navigation aides; diving equipment; parachutes, gliders and other nonmotorized airborne vehicles; flares and fireworks; avionics and flight control equipment; missile related computer technologies; rock drills and equipment drawing water from excavated sites. Items not necessarily included in the lists above but whose entry into Gaza is controlled, as detailed below:

i. Items and chemicals which could be used in the production of high trajectory weapons (rockets and mortars) by Hamas and other terror groups in Gaza - Fertilizers or other mixtures - specifically containing KCl at more than 5%; Epoxy and Vinyl Ester resins; Hardeners for Epoxy Resins containing Amides or Amines; Accelerators for Vinyl Esters; HTPB; Water purification solutions at concentrations higher than 11%.

ii. Items used as raw materials for improving protection for terror activists - Fibers or woven fabrics containing Carbon or Glass variants.

iii. Vessels.

List No. 2: Construction Items and Materials to be Allowed Entry into Gaza only for PA-authorized Projects Implemented by the International Community

Israel will only permit their entry into Gaza to facilitate construction projects in Gaza which have been authorized by the PA and implemented and monitored by the international community. The often cited reason is that such materials could be used by Hamas for military purposes (building bunkers, fortifying positions and digging tunnels)

This list includes:

Portland cement and lime (in bulk, bags or barrels)
Natural and Quarry aggregates and all varieties of gravel
Ready concrete
Precast concrete elements and products
Steel elements and/or construction products
Iron for foundations and columns, at any diameter (including wielded steel nets)
Steel cables of any width
Forms for construction elements (plastics or galvanized iron)
Industrialized forms for casting concrete
Plastic or composite beams more than 4 mm thick
Thermal isolation materials and products
Blocs (at any width) - Concrete; Silicate; Ytong or its equivalent; or gypsum
Materials and products for sealing structures
Asphalt and its components (Bitumen, emulsion) in aggregate or packaged
Steel elements or framing products for construction
Cast concrete elements and products for drainage over 1 m in diameter
Precast units and sea-borne containers
Vehicles, excluding private cars and including 4X4 vehicles and other categories of motor vehicles liable to be used in terror activities
Lumber beams and boards more than 2 cm thick, (liable to be used in "offensive" tunneling aimed at penetrating Israeli territory), unless incorporated in finished products
Specific procedures, on a case by case basis, will be established so as to permit the transfer of such lumber for other purposes in Gaza.

Certain kind of cement

**Da Boss**

Yeah, that makes it much better.

**Jihadin**

Here's the report for it Bit dated

http://www.molg.pna.ps/ecb/studies/material/material.pdf

**Ketara**

Da Boss wrote:

If Israel was at all serious about peace it would stop settlement expansion in the West Bank and lift the blockade of goods like cement into Gaza though. Hamas are treacherous scum, but all the alternatives to Hamas were systematically undermined by Israel.

I agree on the settlement expansion. Fatah are horribly corrupt, but they can be dealt with rationally. That's where Israel comes into being the aggressor more in my books.

But Hamas in Gaza? I swap sides. If the Isle of Jersey suddenly started stockpiling missiles to fire at Britain, I'd be fully in favour of an extensive naval blockade there. The Palestinian people in Gaza elected an aggressive government. Let them reap what they sowed, in the same way WW1 Germany was blockaded off during hostilities. Let them pay their debts afterwards like ex-Napoleonic France. If you vote to start a war of aggression, I have little sympathy.

**WarOne**

This war will not end quickly nor go away quietly.

My personal anecdote to add for the day:

I work retail. Literally everyday we get a customer or more who are from Israel who come in to purchase products from my store (yes, they are tourists and yes, they are still on vacation or visiting here with the war going on).

Today was especially poignant as one person shopping around for several minutes came up right in the middle of a typical customer transaction I was ringing up and pretty much began a tirade about how horrible Hamas is and felt that all the Palestinians were at fault for what was happening.

This person chided CNN for continuing to show the plight of the Palestinian people through videos and coverage.

She said she felt bad a little bit for the people living in Gaza at first but eventually came full circle and believes that they should all be wiped out instead. Yes, she advocated full scale genocide of the entire populace. And yes, they are doing it to themselves. They cannot take care of themselves and all they know how to do is make bombs and kill innocent civilians.

This person pointed out that all the little children that are the victims will become future terrorists because of all the violence they see and being trained for.

And what made her views come into stark contrast was she finally stated her two sons are fighting in the war there (thus inferring her Israeli citizenship). One who was in his 30's with five children is fighting in the direct combat squads and another who was early 20's with one child just got called up as part of the second round of reservists.

As a neutral observer to this reaction, I tried a mediated, politically neutral response to her response explaining war is unfortunate and cyclical, ushering the customers I helped out quickly before she turned on them again. Another person, a gentleman behind her, supported her wholehearted in her views and stated America will defend Israel, claiming that soldiers from the US will be there before long.

With two sons directly in the war effort and her staunch support of Israel, I can see crystal clear why this war will not end soon. With the gentleman, I can see the undying loyalty the average American exhibits. Everyone has too deep a stake in this to pull out. And if that is a prevailing view in Israel, I have no doubt that as the casualties mount for Palestinians, very few Israels will shed any tears on this matter.

**Da Boss**

Ketara: It's pretty heartless to have little sympathy for the children in Gaza.

**WarOne**

Da Boss wrote:
Ketara: It's pretty heartless to have little sympathy for the children in Gaza.

The children did not elect the government. They are victims in this more than anyone else.

But as they grow up to maturity, it will be their decision on how the future of Palestine/Israel will be determined. I do not think this war and any other wars they have suffered will help make them positive contributors to any future resolutions to future conflicts.

**Da Boss**

That's an understatement.

Gah. This entire topic makes me angry and depressed. I should avoid these threads.

**WarOne**

Da Boss wrote:
That's an understatement.

Gah. This entire topic makes me angry and depressed. I should avoid these threads.

War is never about happiness and calm. Death reigns and famine often follows.

For the Palestinians, they're boxed in with extremists who will never let Israel exist if they will allow it.

For Israelis, they're boxed into a mentality that it's us versus them. They feel locked in a cage with nothing but hungry lions outside, but in their own paranoia, have trapped in others for their own self-preservation.

There are no black and whites here, just varying shades of death and grey moralities.

**ZebioLizard2**

Out of curiosity what set her off on the people in the store, was the news on a TV nearby or something?

**WarOne**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Out of curiosity what set her off on the people in the store, was the news on a TV nearby or something?

We have a radio that plays popular music and no TVs, no newspapers about.

Nothing. Absolutely out of no where. She was shopping in the store for about ten-fifteen minutes, placed some items at the counter, then literally surged forward behind two other ladies I was ringing up and started up talking points about the Israeli perspective on the war and then going in to much more extreme territories.

**Ketara**

Da Boss wrote:
Ketara: It's pretty heartless to have little sympathy for the children in Gaza.

I have as much sympathy for them as I do the starving orphans in Africa where the Presidents drive around in BMW. People grow up in less than ideal circumstances everywhere, and it sucks. But I cannot condemn Israel for striking back when struck at. If Hamas sets up a mortar next to a school, fires off a few rounds, and then packs up and tries to run before the Israeli counterstrike comes whistling in, I can't fault Israel for trying to nail them before they do so. Every one of those mortars that gets eliminated is one that cannot kill their citizens. And the first duty of every Government is to protect the lives of their citizens.

When we blockaded Germany in WW1, the children who went hungry there didn't elect the Government. They didn't vote for the country that sent their daddy to get gunned down in the trenches. But they suffered anyway. Such, alas, is the way of the world. Not everyone gets three square meals a day, a good education, loving parents, and a peaceful upbringing.

For the Palestinians, they're boxed in with extremists who will never let Israel exist if they will allow it.

The Palestinians voted Hamas in as a majority. It's not quite as if there's a hundred people for every Hamas member. Remember that. They voted them in. Whilst I accept that you can agree with some policies of a party and not the rest, if the Tory party made a key part of their manifesto, 'Kill all the Frenchman and occupy France', I'm pretty sure they'd get a lot less votes. And if we then lobbed missiles at France and they threw them back, we couldn't exactly complain.

**Goliath**

Ketara wrote:
The Palestinian people in Gaza elected an aggressive government. Let them reap what they sowed

The median age in Gaza is 18.2. (Source)
Hamas came to power in the palestinian elections of 2006 (Source)
The median person now, would have been 10 when Hamas came to power. Even now, half the population of Gaza isn't old enough to vote, let alone to have voted in Hamas, so ignoring the fact that Hamas only recieved 45% of the vote (Source again), the majority of the country that is alive today would not have been old enough to vote when Hamas came to power. Are you really saying that the majority of the country should "reap what they sowed" when they had absolutely nothing to do with the sowing of it? Seriously?

**Ensis Ferrae**

Ketara wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
Ketara: It's pretty heartless to have little sympathy for the children in Gaza.

I have as much sympathy for them as I do the starving orphans in Africa where the Presidents drive around in BMW. People grow up in less than ideal circumstances everywhere, and it sucks. But I cannot condemn Israel for striking back when struck at. If Hamas sets up a mortar next to a school, fires off a few rounds, and then packs up and tries to run before the Israeli counterstrike comes whistling in, I can't fault Israel for trying to nail them before they do so. Every one of those mortars that gets eliminated is one that cannot kill their citizens. And the first duty of every Government is to protect the lives of their citizens.

When we blockaded Germany in WW1, the children who went hungry there didn't elect the Government. They didn't vote for the country that sent their daddy to get gunned down in the trenches. But they suffered anyway. Such, alas, is the way of the world. Not everyone gets three square meals a day, a good education, loving parents, and a peaceful upbringing.

Now, we've all seen arguments for "who started" this fight, but this right here is what I can definitely agree with... as my own children grow up, I'll be teaching them that to start a fight is wrong (as often times, that is getting into bully territory), but if someone else throws the first punch, you'd damn well better protect yourself, and end the fight. Compared to what we KNOW Israel is capable of, they really are just trying to pimp slap Hamas, when it seems that a Tyson hook is what is needed.

**Ketara**

Goliath wrote:
Ketara wrote:
The Palestinian people in Gaza elected an aggressive government. Let them reap what they sowed
The median age in Gaza is 18.2. (Source)
Hamas came to power in the palestinian elections of 2006 (Source)
The median person now, would have been 10 when Hamas came to power. Even now, half the population of Gaza isn't old enough to vote, let alone to have voted in Hamas, so ignoring the fact that Hamas only recieved 45% of the vote (Source again), the majority of the country that is alive today would not have been old enough to vote when Hamas came to power. Are you really saying that the majority of the country should "reap what they sowed" when they had absolutely nothing to do with the sowing of it? Seriously?

Look at those figures again. What they tell me is half the country was at voting age when the last election rolled around, and roughly one in two of those people voted Hamas. In other words, roughly one in four people in Gaza today voted Hamas. In comparison, only one in three voted Conservative in the UK 2010 General Election, and they run the country. If the Tories had run on a manifesto of , 'let's bomb France', then yes, I would say that the UK deserved to reap what it sowed when the inevitable counterstrike from France came. Even though only 33% of the country voted for them. Likewise, I stand consistent on that stance with Hamas.

If you are prepared to let your Government commit violence and hostility in your name, then you stand complicit. I see no demonstrations against Hamas, no peace movements. Nothing that would leave me to believe that the Hamas Government is not generally representative (to at least 50%) of the people of Gaza.

**WarOne**

Ketara wrote:

If you are prepared to let your Government commit violence and hostility in your name, then you stand complicit. I see no demonstrations against Hamas, no peace movements. Nothing that would leave me to believe that the Hamas Government is not generally representative (to at least 50%) of the people of Gaza.

And how far should the Palestinians be punished for supporting Hamas? 1.7 million people live in the Gaza Strip. How much should these people be punished for supporting the militants who are now engaged in a death struggle with Israel? How much sympathy can be wrought if the number of dead escalates into the thousands and the displaced population approaches one million?

**Goliath**

Ketara wrote:
Goliath wrote:
Hamas came to power in the palestinian elections of 2006 (Source)
The median person now, would have been 10 when Hamas came to power. Even now, half the population of Gaza isn't old enough to vote, let alone to have voted in Hamas, so ignoring the fact that Hamas only recieved 45% of the vote (Source again), the majority of the country that is alive today would not have been old enough to vote when Hamas came to power. Are you really saying that the majority of the country should "reap what they sowed" when they had absolutely nothing to do with the sowing of it? Seriously?

Look at those figures again. What they tell me is half the country was at voting age when the last election rolled around, and roughly one in two of those people voted Hamas. In other words, roughly one in four people in Gaza today voted Hamas. In comparison, only one in three voted Conservative in the UK 2010 General Election, and they run the country. If the Tories had run on a manifesto of , 'let's bomb France', then yes, I would say that the UK deserved to reap what it sowed when the inevitable counterstrike from France came. Even though only 33% of the country voted for them. Likewise, I stand consistent on that stance with Hamas.

If you are prepared to let your Government commit violence and hostility in your name, then you stand complicit. I see no demonstrations against Hamas, no peace movements. Nothing that would leave me to believe that the Hamas Government is not generally representative (to at least 50%) of the people of Gaza.

I suppose. I guess the issue I have with it is that the reason most people didn't vote wasn't because they couldn't be bothered (as would be the case in the tory example you gave) but that they were children, and therefore ineligible to vote, but they're still supposed to just live with it.

To be honest this entire war just makes me miserable, especially with the habit the internet has of making it so that no-one is allowed to see the middle ground; Either the Israelis are oppresive monsters that are committing genocide against unarmed civilians and hospitals, or Hamas is a bunch of "Islamist nutt jobs who's only goal in life is to systematically exterminate every last Jew on Earth" (a direct quote from this thread), there is no compromise at all, and the fact that it's gotten to this point upsets me.

If you'd told me when I was 12 that the crap that was happening in Israel and Gaza and the West Bank would still be happening eight years later, I would have told you you were really silly, and then laughed at you for being silly, but now here we are, I'm now 20, and they're still blowing the ever-loving crap out of each other.

**WarOne**

The world sucks, hardcore. Be thankful if you live in a nation not out to murder or imprison its own citizens for having a divergent thought. Be thankful your government will go out of its way to protect you abroad and give you rights and services domestically not because of you individually, but of who you are by the happenstance of where you were born or what passports you hold.

We can sit in a home, safe from the relative "evils" out there and armchair any discussion on a forum dedicated to a luxury/hobby.

The people in other places huddle in misery, missing or dead relatives not there to comfort them, amenities scarce or non-existent, death lurking from any given point, and revenge perhaps in the offering whether immediate or festering in the future. I pity these people, but their fate is not in my hands.

Only those in power who preach peace and civility towards fellow humans have the capacity to do something. But how long must we wait until enough of these people say "Stop" and end the conflict?

**Da Boss**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Ketara wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
Ketara: It's pretty heartless to have little sympathy for the children in Gaza.

I have as much sympathy for them as I do the starving orphans in Africa where the Presidents drive around in BMW. People grow up in less than ideal circumstances everywhere, and it sucks. But I cannot condemn Israel for striking back when struck at. If Hamas sets up a mortar next to a school, fires off a few rounds, and then packs up and tries to run before the Israeli counterstrike comes whistling in, I can't fault Israel for trying to nail them before they do so. Every one of those mortars that gets eliminated is one that cannot kill their citizens. And the first duty of every Government is to protect the lives of their citizens.

When we blockaded Germany in WW1, the children who went hungry there didn't elect the Government. They didn't vote for the country that sent their daddy to get gunned down in the trenches. But they suffered anyway. Such, alas, is the way of the world. Not everyone gets three square meals a day, a good education, loving parents, and a peaceful upbringing.

Now, we've all seen arguments for "who started" this fight, but this right here is what I can definitely agree with... as my own children grow up, I'll be teaching them that to start a fight is wrong (as often times, that is getting into bully territory), but if someone else throws the first punch, you'd damn well better protect yourself, and end the fight. Compared to what we KNOW Israel is capable of, they really are just trying to pimp slap Hamas, when it seems that a Tyson hook is what is needed.

Guess it's a shame there's not many christians involved in the conflict, or there might be a bit more turning the other cheek.

It's not difficult to see how Hamas comes to power. The Palestinians were displaced initially. The wars fought to destroy Israel and restore a status quo they would find acceptable were incompetently lead and under-resourced, and therefore their "side" (though in reality few were really on the "side" of the Palestinians) lost to the much better lead and resourced Israeli military.

Over decades, each attempt at resolving differences through diplomacy fails as Israel refuses to recognise or deal with the PLO for a long time, or flat out does not honour agreements. The PLO becomes de-legitimised after decades of failure to get any concessions from Israel, and the population begin to look for answers elsewhere. Hamas offers a simple answer - the Israelis won't negotiate and trample on agreements, so let's destroy them. Militants in Lebanon had been "successful" in "driving off" the Israelis (the reality is a little less heroic, the Israelis were leaving anyway and their exit was accelerated due to increased militant activity). Hamas promise to emulate these "successes", the only successes the Palestinians have to write home about in practically forever.They get voted in, and everything gets worse.

Given the situation, and how long it's been going on, and how little the international community cares about their situation, I can totally see why Hamas got into power. It's a mistake, and they're paying for it now, but other options had yielded nothing, either.

Hamas is terrible, but it's success stems from Israel's inflexibility in dealing with the Palestinians. Refuse to deal with the reasonable people, and you get left with the unreasonable people.

Given how long it's all gone on, and the vast store of ill feeling on both sides, perhaps there's no chance of a peaceful solution any more. Plenty of Palestinians want Israel completely destroyed and all the Jews there killed, and plenty of Israelis want all the Palestinians dead or driven off. The whole thing has been a disaster from start to present, and I have no doubt the "finish" will be equally disastrous.

As far as American policy goes, I just don't get it. American support for Israel is expensive, and in terms of foreign relations it's the number 1 reason why countries in the region have a problem with the US. It seems like a no-win situation for the US and I don't get why more Americans aren't arguing for a scaling back of support or at least a harsher stance with regard to Israel's excesses. When I read threads here, I see a lot of "Right on!" attitudes towards Israel's hardline stances, but the fact is, these stances are not working. Hardline is met with hardline, and both sides become more extreme, leading to an escalating cycle of bloodshed.

**Ketara**

WarOne wrote:

And how far should the Palestinians be punished for supporting Hamas? 1.7 million people live in the Gaza Strip. How much should these people be punished for supporting the militants who are now engaged in a death struggle with Israel? How much sympathy can be wrought if the number of dead escalates into the thousands and the displaced population approaches one million?

I will say this. If my Government was advocating chucking missiles at the US for no reason, initiated hostilities, and we were currently under aerial attack from the US for that very reason, I wouldn't be blaming the US. I'd eithe rbe fleeing the country, or if that wasn't possible, trying to find some way of toppling my Government from whatever insanity had taken them. Because that's what it is. In the same way the UK could not hope to defeat the US militarily right now, Hamas has no chance of defeating Israel. It's war for the sake of war, blood spilt for the sake of spilling blood.

I see no sort of Palestinian attempt to topple Hamas. Why? Because Fatah knows that this time around, the two are playing for keeps. And after Israel crushes Hamas into the ground, Fatah can pick up the pieces whilst still decrying Israel the whole time. So they're more than happy to sit back and watch Hamas be smooshed.

Goliath wrote: I suppose. I guess the issue I have with it is that the reason most people didn't vote wasn't because they couldn't be bothered (as would be the case in the tory example you gave) but that they were children, and therefore ineligible to vote, but they're still supposed to just live with it.

To be honest this entire war just makes me miserable, especially with the habit the internet has of making it so that no-one is allowed to see the middle ground; Either the Israelis are oppresive monsters that are committing genocide against unarmed civilians and hospitals, or Hamas is a bunch of "Islamist nutt jobs who's only goal in life is to systematically exterminate every last Jew on Earth" (a direct quote from this thread), there is no compromise at all, and the fact that it's gotten to this point upsets me.

That's what makes me laugh. In the last thread, I was accused of being waaay too pro-Israel at first, and then after I ducked out for a week and came back, too pro-Palestinian. People tend to tar you with a brush of being 'for or against' depending on where their own political sympathis lie. The Pro-Palestinians ignore Hamas, their desire for genocide and use of human shields, and the pro-Israeli's regard everything Israel does as being for the security of their nation. Both are blind to the wrongdoing on opposing sides.

As I said earlier, I very much tend to side with Israel against Hamas in Gaza, but am very much not impressed with their actions on the West Bank.

WarOne wrote:The world sucks, hardcore. Be thankful if you live in a nation not out to murder or imprison its own citizens for having a divergent thought. Be thankful your government will go out of its way to protect you abroad and give you rights and services domestically not because of you individually, but of who you are by the happenstance of where you were born or what passports you hold.

We can sit in a home, safe from the relative "evils" out there and armchair any discussion on a forum dedicated to a luxury/hobby.

The people in other places huddle in misery, missing or dead relatives not there to comfort them, amenities scarce or non-existent, death lurking from any given point, and revenge perhaps in the offering whether immediate or festering in the future. I pity these people, but their fate is not in my hands.

Only those in power who preach peace and civility towards fellow humans have the capacity to do something. But how long must we wait until enough of these people say "Stop" and end the conflict?

As someone who's actually fled a home country in fear of my life, when everything started crumbling down, I appreciate what the UK has to offer far more than most of those born here.