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 Chootum wrote:
I run 3 Armored Sentinels with 3 Plasma Cannons for 150 Pts. They are always 2" from an Ammo Dump and reroll gets hots. They always make their points back and have been awesome.

Comparing that with a 155 pt Executioner with no sponsons (3 PC templates).

Sents have 6 HPs at AV12
Executioner has 3 HPS at AV14

They are usually comparable in game. If you have a Fast Attack slot available, I highly recommend the Sentinels with that loadout. Very very good.

Will try! Most other loadouts on these are crap though.

For Guard, like everyone else, the Elite section. I can use Scions... but I never really want to.

After that? Ordnance Russes. Sponsons are so cheap and good, and they're overcosted to boot.

Chimera are a necessary evil, but they suck these days.


Blood Angels troops are crap.

Lesee: Pretty much most units for Chaos Space Marines. However as one would expect, the worst of the worst tends to be Warp Talons, Defilers, and mutilators.

Nercrons would probably be a doom scythe for me, because of the way I play. Tau would be aun'shi, I think vespids are actually really good

 Da Stormlord wrote:
Nercrons would probably be a doom scythe for me, because of the way I play. Tau would be aun'shi, I think vespids are actually really good

The Doom Scythe is not bad at all (Though, the Hemlock Wraithfighter craps all over it. Thanks GW),

For me, the worst in the Necron codex are as follows:

1. Trazyn the Infinite: Doesn't really serve a purpose. Doesn't buff anything, and isn't a CC beatstick. I'd still use him in a fun game, though.
2. Transcendant Ctan: 250 points for the squishiness of a Ctan, is outshined by the Wraithknight still, only damage output is random, and his Writhing Worldscape ability is borderline useless. Still has a place in some lists, but nowhere near an optimized choice.
3. Annihilation Barge: No longer has a place. "Heavy Weapons" platform, with 6" movement if you want to shoot, a second gun that means nothing, hindered by being Open-topped, and it's main gun has AP- and 24" range. The gun itself is fine, but the platform is useless. 10 points more gets you a Night Scythe.
4. Scarabs: More expensive, squishy, and commonly seen as a tax for the Canoptek Harvest. Has melee Gauss, but against targets T7 and higher, they'll be insta-gibbed while trying to tarpit it, and against vehicles, you could bring more durable models (Warriors) that do the same thing from range.

Overall I like everything in the codex, and externally, none of the above units are terribad, but internally, there are way better options.

I'd agree with that list for Necrons.

I disagree on Scarabs being bad, as you can spawn more. I have seen some really nasty scarab farms list using a chronometron cryptek and harvest.


Suddenly when a squad of 10 becomes 20 and they have shred they become a different story, Even the strongest enemies will only kill a handful, and they start multiplying rapidly,

Scarabs I think are more situational than actually outright "bad". As an IG player, they're still extremely scary for me, as they're fast with no way to slow them down short of killing them, and even just a couple depleted bases making it into base contact with an infantry or artillery unit can win combat, on top of the fact that (unless you're shooting massed S6+ at them), they effectively only care about every 3rd wound (or less depending on where the shooting is coming from) and can be reinforced and play shennanigans with placement.

As for Annihilation Barges, honestly I don't think there's anything wrong with the unit itself, its not like it's an ineffective unit or hideously overpriced or anything like that, but that it's just the internal balanced that is wonky, as you're probably usually taking Night Scythes anyway, and they remain one of the cheapest and most powerful flyers in the game even with their recent nerfing.


As for my selection of worst units....

For IG, as much as I want to point out things like Scions/Stormtroopers, Ogryn, Battlecannon Russ tanks and Vanquishers and the like, there are two units that stand out in my mind as utterly useless.

Rough Riders - these lack any substantial punch anymore, and really have lacked punch in any post 3E metagame, and have never had the survivability to really be anything but a counterattack unit, and with the 6E/7E change of no assaulting out of reserves, they're much less effective in that role as they can't be held safely in reserve to charge into something that crashed into your lines. Costing nearly twice what a basic Guardsmen does doesn't help either.

Techpriest Engineseer- woooo has a 1-in-3 chance to repair a single HP or damage result if it manages to be in base contact with a vehicle that needs it, costs nearly as much as a basic Infantry squad, and any upgrade options to increase effectiveness or firepower are hilariously overpriced along with having no transport option.

For Chaos Space Marines, I'm going to go with the Defiler

Got a *huge* points increase for no major increase in effectiveness, costs more than most kitted Leman Russ tanks and nearly twice what a Dread costs, with weaponry that pushes it into mutually opposed roles, and armor that is quite simply totally inadequate for something of its size and cost.

 Lord Commissar wrote:
I disagree on Scarabs being bad, as you can spawn more. I have seen some really nasty scarab farms list using a chronometron cryptek and harvest.


Suddenly when a squad of 10 becomes 20 and they have shred they become a different story, Even the strongest enemies will only kill a handful, and they start multiplying rapidly,

Downside of this, is that unless you bring a CAD, you can only bring 1 Spyder (Thanks to the internet thinking they're correct on rules) and therefor only spawning 1 scarab per turn. So you have to invest more points into scarabs, which is not a painless investment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Scarabs I think are more situational than actually outright "bad". As an IG player, they're still extremely scary for me, as they're fast with no way to slow them down short of killing them, and even just a couple depleted bases making it into base contact with an infantry or artillery unit can win combat, on top of the fact that (unless you're shooting massed S6+ at them), they effectively only care about every 3rd wound (or less depending on where the shooting is coming from) and can be reinforced and play shennanigans with placement.

As for Annihilation Barges, honestly I don't think there's anything wrong with the unit itself, its not like it's an ineffective unit or hideously overpriced or anything like that, but that it's just the internal balanced that is wonky, as you're probably usually taking Night Scythes anyway, and they remain one of the cheapest and most powerful flyers in the game even with their recent nerfing.

I mean yeah, I enjoy playing Scarabs, certainly. They're loads of fun. I'm just saying in my view, if I wanted to optimize to bring the most effective thing, I'd leave them at home. Luckily though, I can play semi-fluffy lists of Crons and still do well, thanks to the detachment.

As for the barges, I'd still rather have most other heavy support platforms in the game. A Fire Prism, a Predator Tank, hell, a Leman Russ even. The A barge has the same range as my infantry, and doesn't give me anything my standard dudes can't give me, for cheaper and more durable. But, I still enjoy bringing an Annihilation Nexus for gaks and giggles in fun games. That's the beauty of it.

 Vaktathi wrote:

As for Annihilation Barges, honestly I don't think there's anything wrong with the unit itself, its not like it's an ineffective unit or hideously overpriced or anything like that, but that it's just the internal balanced that is wonky, as you're probably usually taking Night Scythes anyway, and they remain one of the cheapest and most powerful flyers in the game even with their recent nerfing.

The problem is, the A. Barge got a double nerf. It's cost increased by 33% (which was reasonable), but it also lost tesla on snapshots (which wasn't).

What made the old barge great was that it's weapon had a lot of utility against most targets, and could still get a reasonable number of hits on fliers, after jinking or after moving 12". Now, not only are all those gone, but it's also substantially more expensive.


Regardless, I agree about Night Scythes still being too strong.

ConanMan wrote:
I disagree with the previous post about Eldar's worst unit being storm guardians, they are 72 points now, and get 2 free power weapons and 2 free melta guns (if you get 24 of them plus a vyper and stuff.. they then run 6",) and for 216 points for 24 models they are impressive.

In fact point for point storm guardians are good vs any units that are NOT close combat troops (including marines)

My candidate for the worst unit in the eldar codex is wraithblades with swords.

One Storm Guardian squad is awful enough, and now 3 of them? Seeing them on the table will makes me feel very cold on the inside, as though my heart has abandoned me. How are you supposed to get them across the field? They will still get shot to pieces. Almost every basic weapon in the game is AP5, negating their armor. You absolutely need Wave Serpents to carry them. And how are they going to survive that flamer Overwatch?

Why do you think they will get into close combat with a unit that is NOT a close-combat focused? When you play a close combat unit, always be prepared to take on another close combat unit. When I play Striking Scorpion, I always imagine how they will fight against Orks and Khorne Bezerkers.

Trade off between Guardians and Storm Guardians. 1 shot at S4 AP5 Bladestorm 12" range for 1 close combat attack at S3 Ap-. Power Sword costs 15 points per model. Not even Power Weapon where I get to pick from a variety.

And why are you using the worst formation in the army? Spend on Windraider or even the other Guardian one.

Wraithblades are bad, but seriously not THAT bad.

This is actually a tough one for the Chaos Space Marines, because in the current state of affairs, it's actually difficult to choose which of their units is the worst. Their current book is filled with interesting concepts and ideas but poorly implemented rules-wise. Take the Warp Talons, for instance. I don't know if assaulting straight from deep strike would be too cheesy, but considering how much they cost, the fact that they can't assault from deep strike makes them an actual points sink.

To be completely honest, I don't know if the fault really lies with the codex itself, or rather with the power creep other armies have profited from. Heldrakes and Dinobots aside (currently, none of them specially good), CSM look like an army frozen in time since 4th edition, an army of - supposedly - close combat specialists who never get to assault because after 10000 years in the Eye of Terror their only assault vehicle is the Land Raider. It must be terribly difficult for those warpsmiths to tweak the existing rhino design into a proper assault vehicle, I mean they can build Dinobots from scratch but an useful assault-oriented APC? Nooooooo.

If only they had been frozen at their 3.5 codex state. At least they would be a more interesting army to play.

Tyranids: dakka flyrant
Chaos: Helldrake
Eldar: jet bikes or wraithknights
IG: wyverns

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Chaos: warp talons.

I'm glad somebody else agrees, I see almost no reason to ever bring Warp Talons over Raptors.

Orks
Bwagon. waaaaaaaay to overpriced. Could easily drop 40 points.

Mob rule,.. its just useless, not a unit i know
Invul saves gone.. omfgwtf... still no unit i know

Meganobz.. not even a 6++ pfff
Warboss... Lols hits like a hammer, takes hits like a grot...
Nobs Hit like a hammer, die like grots
Stormboyz... could just not spend the points... uselessssss
Kommandoz... decent but still suck because of the mass ignore cover weapons out there.
Bik Mek... only usefull for KFF... but pricey
Burna bomma and superbomma... to costly for what they do.. it aint much
Deff dread.... Killa kans.... they are made to suck..
Gorka/Morkanaut... waaaaaaay to pricey. Could easily drop 50 points.
Ghazkgull... seriously... THE BEAST that is like a puppy now...

I'd say Celestians for SOB. At least you can pack repentia in an allied assault vehicle and make that imperial knight that wasn't paying attention find out what it's like to eat 20+ armourbane attacks. Penitent engines even have a place in low point or heavy swarm games. (I don't know if anyone actually runs full swarm Tyraninds but 9 penitent engines plus a flamer/Heavyflamer BSS would make a list like that barbecue.)

 Cirronimbus wrote:
For Tau I'd say the worst are probably Gun Drone squadrons or possibly Sniper Drone squadrons, although I don't think either are objectively bad units, just that they compete for slots against things that are better. Special characters are a bit lackluster as well but I didn't count them.

wha...whaaaa???? Commander w drone controller inserted into squad. OMG the firepower.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
and don't forget the mega nobz, who cost as much as a terminator and suffer the same downfalls as them. To expensive, no dakka, and they have to have a 110point Transpoirt to be slightly useful.

C'mon bro.... 110 pts? What about Trukks w Ram? Megas are currently my face ripping favorite. Especially the bully boyz!


Orks in my opinion suffer from serveral problems
- Nobz/NobBikers without 5th ed wound allocation shenanigans
- Bubble Chucka comes to mind as the stand out worst unit in the codex
- Flash Gitz but I have no experience with them admittedly
- Killa Kanz should be elites. Too expensive. Too nerfed.
- Deff Dreds like all dreds in 40k
- Dorkanauts could be solved by one ERRATA "Change Walker-type to Super Heavy Walker" Poof. More models sold. but the cost is basically equal to a <snicker> Wraithknight. And lord knows they could go toe to toe with a Wraithknight.

Read a few years ago about the worst gun in the game and one answer made me lol.... "Kombi - Rokkit because it hits 1 out of every 3 games."

Nobz. Can't really think of many things worse.

I agree with the posts made about CSM units:

Defilers, Warp Talons, Mutilators stand out as the worst.

Then, of course Thousand Sons, Berzerkers, Possessed, choppy Chosen...

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Orks
Bwagon. waaaaaaaay to overpriced. Could easily drop 40 points.

Mob rule,.. its just useless, not a unit i know
Invul saves gone.. omfgwtf... still no unit i know

Meganobz.. not even a 6++ pfff
Warboss... Lols hits like a hammer, takes hits like a grot...
Nobs Hit like a hammer, die like grots
Stormboyz... could just not spend the points... uselessssss
Kommandoz... decent but still suck because of the mass ignore cover weapons out there.
Bik Mek... only usefull for KFF... but pricey
Burna bomma and superbomma... to costly for what they do.. it aint much
Deff dread.... Killa kans.... they are made to suck..
Gorka/Morkanaut... waaaaaaay to pricey. Could easily drop 50 points.
Ghazkgull... seriously... THE BEAST that is like a puppy now...

I agree on some but not on others.

The Mob Rule is bad, but it's not a deal breaker for me. It's thank to Mob Rule that my boys never ran sometimes. Still s****y to take off 2-4 boys every failed morale check now though.

Meganobz are a mixed bag for me. With a trukk missile, they are supremely effective. Plant that trukk 24" in someones face, wait for it to explode and the meganobs crawl out on their turn, and then wreck face.

Warboss I've had lots of success with the fnp's with lukky stikk. But I feel this is the only way to take him though. Not having rerolls on his FnP is just too risky when we have no invuls like you said.

Other units listed though, yea. I've had success with stormboyz only when there are a lot of other units to take heat off of them.

I love the concept of Kommandos, and had a few rare success with them and flamers. But they never last when the going gets tough (which its always tough for greenskinz)

Battlewagon way too costly like mentioned.

But the worst culprit I think of all in the entire codex?

Nobs. As a group, they are super expensive with a terrible save. Yes the waaagh banner is nice, and you can stick a painboy with them; but there are a lot of other useful other ways to spend the points.

I haven't played a nobs group in awhile, but I can only seem them useful in Kill Team missions, maybe?

Nobz: Significantly Over priced, no access to weapons beyond Kombi Skorchas/rokkitz. Garbage saves, even when upgraded a 4+ is about as useless as a 6+ in our current edition where S6AP4 or better is so prevalent. And to upgrade them to Bikers the cost is......astronomical. 18pts per model and i believe 27pts extra for a bike.

Meganobz: Same problems as a terminator, everyone keeps saying "Put them in a Trukk" and I say to that, if your opponenet is stupid enough to not pop that trukk on Turn 1 then you deserve to win with that garbage unit.

Burna Boyz/TankBustas/lootas: IF they aren't in a vehicle they are dead, and when that vehicle inevitably explodes (Open Topped + melta = 4+ explosion) you lose 5ish models, fail your leadership check and either run away or lose 1-6 more models to a Mob Rule check and you are left with a significantly smaller mob that has 6+ armor that gets shot off the table.

ALL ORK FLYERS: No DAKKA!, Dakkajet has 3 TL Supa Shootas which is only 9 S6 shots and it costs 130ish points....the eldar, on a much more survivable platform (JETBIKES) Can push out MORE S6 shots for less points. 10AV all round doesn't help the ork case either. Fightabomba is fun but with S7 its bomb doesn't do as much as it should. Burnabomba is a joke simple as that, the orks have more then enough anti-light infantry as is.

Battlewagon: TO expensive and without last codex's Deff Rolla it is just an over priced Transport for Burnas/Tankbustas and lootas. ohh and to make life better for orks, it falls into the Emptiest Slot in our FOC.....Heavy Support.

Trukks: Without Ramshackle (The old rule not this new crap) a Trukk is a timed explosive. It is a rare game when my Trukks survive more then 1-2 turns. Even in a Trukk spam army all it takes is bolters to take one out and the occasional Rokkit/lascannon/heavy bolter really mulches them.

Deff Dreads/KillaKans/Orkanauts/Stompa: Over priced, Low survivability, not enough Dakka and did i mention OVER PRICED!

FLASH GITZ: Nobz without access to even our crappy 4+ armor. Can not be taken without a Battlewagon....PERIOD! Significantly over priced for the Random AP it provides and with only a range of 24 they die in droves....throw in the "No Escape" rule for flamers and Flash gitz die in droves even INSIDE the stupid Battle wagon.

And lastly because im tired of hating all over my own codex, the biggest offender (in my opinion)

GHAZGHKULL MAG URUK THRAKA: Our LOW, leader of the Great Waaagh, Biggest, baddest ork since the emperors time......no invul, has +1 WS, Wounds and attacks then a regular Warboss.....Doesn't swing at initiative because....balance. So basically what you have is a severely over priced Warboss that has +1 attacks then a regular Warboss and has a better chance of hitting with his WS of 6. I mean FFS couldn't they have at least made him a T6 or T7 model to at least minimize the massive number of wounds he takes? Ohh wait thats right im forgetting, for 1 turn a game (can't be turn 1) Ghaz gets a 2++!!!!!!! OMG SO OP! Everyone start complaing to GW about how OP Ghaz is.....

I see on a regular basis players taking the LOW character slots in their army. (not WK stuff but the named character) Dante comes to mind frequently. I don't think I have ever seen an Ork take Ghaz unless he was bringing an UBER fluffy list and had no intent to win.

So theirs my rant enjoy my hate towards my own codex.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Techpriest Engineseer- woooo has a 1-in-3 chance to repair a single HP or damage result if it manages to be in base contact with a vehicle that needs it, costs nearly as much as a basic Infantry squad, and any upgrade options to increase effectiveness or firepower are hilariously overpriced along with having no transport option.

I had this idea of an enginseer + 2 servitors with plasma cannons in a chimera. They cost 80 points, making them cheaper than a plasma veteran squad, and they get 2 plasma cannons instead of 2 plasma guns, increasing range and damage output. For the kicker, they have an enginseer who can confer PotMS on a vehicle within 12" and who repairs their own chimera on a 3+.

Total theorycrafting at this point, but I think it could be pretty good in a gunline.

I really really really want to like Flashgitz, and I've had success with them. But every time I take them, I'm like "eeeehhh" because I know there's a lot of pain I can bring in their place.

Lootas only saving grace is the 48" range gun. You can park them on a large object in a far corner and they can pop things from afar.

 OrkaMorka wrote:
I really really really want to like Flashgitz, and I've had success with them. But every time I take them, I'm like "eeeehhh" because I know there's a lot of pain I can bring in their place.

Lootas only saving grace is the 48" range gun. You can park them on a large object in a far corner and they can pop things from afar.

Thats how I use them....until they get targetted by anything and die like flies....or if they are in a battlewagon, they get hit by Deep striking Melta that pops it and kills all the orks inside, or at least enough of them to render them impotent for the rest of the game.

@TheSilo:
For Imperial Guard (AM), my vote would go to mortar heavy weapon squads. They cost so many points to do so little.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Nobz: Significantly Over priced, no access to weapons beyond Kombi Skorchas/rokkitz. Garbage saves, even when upgraded a 4+ is about as useless as a 6+ in our current edition where S6AP4 or better is so prevalent. And to upgrade them to Bikers the cost is......astronomical. 18pts per model and i believe 27pts extra for a bike.

Meganobz: Same problems as a terminator, everyone keeps saying "Put them in a Trukk" and I say to that, if your opponenet is stupid enough to not pop that trukk on Turn 1 then you deserve to win with that garbage unit.

Burna Boyz/TankBustas/lootas: IF they aren't in a vehicle they are dead, and when that vehicle inevitably explodes (Open Topped + melta = 4+ explosion) you lose 5ish models, fail your leadership check and either run away or lose 1-6 more models to a Mob Rule check and you are left with a significantly smaller mob that has 6+ armor that gets shot off the table.

ALL ORK FLYERS: No DAKKA!, Dakkajet has 3 TL Supa Shootas which is only 9 S6 shots and it costs 130ish points....the eldar, on a much more survivable platform (JETBIKES) Can push out MORE S6 shots for less points. 10AV all round doesn't help the ork case either. Fightabomba is fun but with S7 its bomb doesn't do as much as it should. Burnabomba is a joke simple as that, the orks have more then enough anti-light infantry as is.

Battlewagon: TO expensive and without last codex's Deff Rolla it is just an over priced Transport for Burnas/Tankbustas and lootas. ohh and to make life better for orks, it falls into the Emptiest Slot in our FOC.....Heavy Support.

Trukks: Without Ramshackle (The old rule not this new crap) a Trukk is a timed explosive. It is a rare game when my Trukks survive more then 1-2 turns. Even in a Trukk spam army all it takes is bolters to take one out and the occasional Rokkit/lascannon/heavy bolter really mulches them.

Deff Dreads/KillaKans/Orkanauts/Stompa: Over priced, Low survivability, not enough Dakka and did i mention OVER PRICED!

FLASH GITZ: Nobz without access to even our crappy 4+ armor. Can not be taken without a Battlewagon....PERIOD! Significantly over priced for the Random AP it provides and with only a range of 24 they die in droves....throw in the "No Escape" rule for flamers and Flash gitz die in droves even INSIDE the stupid Battle wagon.

And lastly because im tired of hating all over my own codex, the biggest offender (in my opinion)

GHAZGHKULL MAG URUK THRAKA: Our LOW, leader of the Great Waaagh, Biggest, baddest ork since the emperors time......no invul, has +1 WS, Wounds and attacks then a regular Warboss.....Doesn't swing at initiative because....balance. So basically what you have is a severely over priced Warboss that has +1 attacks then a regular Warboss and has a better chance of hitting with his WS of 6. I mean FFS couldn't they have at least made him a T6 or T7 model to at least minimize the massive number of wounds he takes? Ohh wait thats right im forgetting, for 1 turn a game (can't be turn 1) Ghaz gets a 2++!!!!!!! OMG SO OP! Everyone start complaing to GW about how OP Ghaz is.....

I see on a regular basis players taking the LOW character slots in their army. (not WK stuff but the named character) Dante comes to mind frequently. I don't think I have ever seen an Ork take Ghaz unless he was bringing an UBER fluffy list and had no intent to win.

So theirs my rant enjoy my hate towards my own codex.

Could not agree with you more. The new ork codex was the biggest let down for me. I mentioned several of the same things that you did earlier in the topic. Got flamed when I mentioned battle wagons. BW got a point increase for no reason and the deff roller is about worthless.

Mallich wrote:
@TheSilo:

Spoiler:

 TheSilo wrote:
I had this idea of an enginseer + 2 servitors with plasma cannons in a chimera. They cost 80 points, making them cheaper than a plasma veteran squad, and they get 2 plasma cannons instead of 2 plasma guns, increasing range and damage output. For the kicker, they have an enginseer who can confer PotMS on a vehicle within 12" and who repairs their own chimera on a 3+.

5+, as the two servitors have replaced their servo-arms with plasma cannon. The enginseer + plasma servitors would come to 90 points, not 80, so would cost as much as the plasma vet squad. Also, you'll have to spend a turn embarking on that chimera. If you really wanted plasma servitors, check the inquisition list. Their servitors are 20% cheaper and their chimera is cheaper, has more fire points, and is a dedicated transport.

For Imperial Guard (AM), my vote would go to mortar heavy weapon squads. They cost so many points to do so little.

Forgot that they can't take their own dedicated transport, 'cause why would a techpriest have access to a vehicle transport? Lol!

Mortar squads are probably the best value heavy weapons squad, they're just so hilariously overshadowed by wyverns. If heavy weapon squads were priced like special weapons squads, they'd be a decent choice, but once equipped they have 6 wounds yet cost as much as a 10 man guard squad. And being unable to give them voxes makes zero sense.

I think for tyranids is probably the malceptor, although the haruspex gives it a solid run for its money. I would say pyrovores but now that we have drop pods again, they can be useful.

Tyranids have a lot of units that could be tweaked to make more useful within the codex, but I really think wings for a hive tyrant needs a point increase, too huge an advantage for the cost. Makes taking anything other then a flyrant as a HQ almost shooting yourself in the foot, even in a fun game.

Don't have any ork players in our group, but I remember the fun of playing against orks in 2nd ed. I remember the general groans when the new codex came out. Makes me sad that one of the original, and most iconic, armies of 40k seems have had such a bad codex dumped on them.

I find Tankbustas seemed to have been the only saving grace. Never leave home without my bomb-squigs now.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Nobz: Significantly Over priced, no access to weapons beyond Kombi Skorchas/rokkitz. Garbage saves, even when upgraded a 4+ is about as useless as a 6+ in our current edition where S6AP4 or better is so prevalent. And to upgrade them to Bikers the cost is......astronomical. 18pts per model and i believe 27pts extra for a bike.

Meganobz: Same problems as a terminator, everyone keeps saying "Put them in a Trukk" and I say to that, if your opponenet is stupid enough to not pop that trukk on Turn 1 then you deserve to win with that garbage unit.

Burna Boyz/TankBustas/lootas: IF they aren't in a vehicle they are dead, and when that vehicle inevitably explodes (Open Topped + melta = 4+ explosion) you lose 5ish models, fail your leadership check and either run away or lose 1-6 more models to a Mob Rule check and you are left with a significantly smaller mob that has 6+ armor that gets shot off the table.

ALL ORK FLYERS: No DAKKA!, Dakkajet has 3 TL Supa Shootas which is only 9 S6 shots and it costs 130ish points....the eldar, on a much more survivable platform (JETBIKES) Can push out MORE S6 shots for less points. 10AV all round doesn't help the ork case either. Fightabomba is fun but with S7 its bomb doesn't do as much as it should. Burnabomba is a joke simple as that, the orks have more then enough anti-light infantry as is.

Battlewagon: TO expensive and without last codex's Deff Rolla it is just an over priced Transport for Burnas/Tankbustas and lootas. ohh and to make life better for orks, it falls into the Emptiest Slot in our FOC.....Heavy Support.

Trukks: Without Ramshackle (The old rule not this new crap) a Trukk is a timed explosive. It is a rare game when my Trukks survive more then 1-2 turns. Even in a Trukk spam army all it takes is bolters to take one out and the occasional Rokkit/lascannon/heavy bolter really mulches them.

Deff Dreads/KillaKans/Orkanauts/Stompa: Over priced, Low survivability, not enough Dakka and did i mention OVER PRICED!

FLASH GITZ: Nobz without access to even our crappy 4+ armor. Can not be taken without a Battlewagon....PERIOD! Significantly over priced for the Random AP it provides and with only a range of 24 they die in droves....throw in the "No Escape" rule for flamers and Flash gitz die in droves even INSIDE the stupid Battle wagon.

And lastly because im tired of hating all over my own codex, the biggest offender (in my opinion)

GHAZGHKULL MAG URUK THRAKA: Our LOW, leader of the Great Waaagh, Biggest, baddest ork since the emperors time......no invul, has +1 WS, Wounds and attacks then a regular Warboss.....Doesn't swing at initiative because....balance. So basically what you have is a severely over priced Warboss that has +1 attacks then a regular Warboss and has a better chance of hitting with his WS of 6. I mean FFS couldn't they have at least made him a T6 or T7 model to at least minimize the massive number of wounds he takes? Ohh wait thats right im forgetting, for 1 turn a game (can't be turn 1) Ghaz gets a 2++!!!!!!! OMG SO OP! Everyone start complaing to GW about how OP Ghaz is.....

I see on a regular basis players taking the LOW character slots in their army. (not WK stuff but the named character) Dante comes to mind frequently. I don't think I have ever seen an Ork take Ghaz unless he was bringing an UBER fluffy list and had no intent to win.

So theirs my rant enjoy my hate towards my own codex.

I find it funny that most of the units on this list (meganobz, lootas, Tankbustas, battlewagons, sometimes flash Gitz) are my money units that do the heavy lifting for my army. Battlewagons in particular are the bread and butter means to get my army across the board and into the enemy's face. Sure deffrollas are 100% trash but they are still AV14 front transports which can hold 20 (12 with the underrated killkannon) and is an open topped assault vehicle (space marines wish they had such a cheap assault vehicle). Blitz Brigade is just nasty with 5 AV14 units with scout, frees up the heavy support slots to bring things like lootas (who are cheaper than before and pump out solid dakka). Flash Gitz are decent and work fairly well in battlewagon lists, sorta expensive but can put out face melting dakka when you make the AP roll (not going to see them in tournaments but better than some other stuff). Tankbustas are amazing and one of the gems of the Ork dex. Spammable assault weapon str 8 AP3 with Tank Hunter and melta bombs is hard to beat for the price. Put them in (you guessed it) battlewagons and they are hard to put down while eating MEQs and vehicles for breakfast. Meganobz in trukks are just nasty and force the enemy to deal with them or get charged turn 2. LoS blocking and terrain are your friend with them (keep them in reserves if your worried about an alpha strike taking them out).

The biggest problem with the Ork codex is mob rule not helping our poor leadership enough in non 30 boy blobs and the FOC being too restricting for what the Orks need to offset the short comings. (Orks with a decurion style detatchment would be a terror to play against, that's without any OP bonuses).