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I have zero interest in battering my head against a brick wall thanks. It is a lovely day and I am going to paint some models.
So, what we have:
1) You saying that my vision is false as default. But it's not "different points of view". It's disabling my point of view.
2) You have nothing to disapprove me.
Bye, have a nice day.
Anyone else?
Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
ALL viewpoints will be tainted by bias. The 'truth' is a three edged sword, after all (your side, their side, the actual truth). Iron Captain & freakazoitt you aren't making any friends and you are unlikely to change any minds - especially on a mostly US populated board on the weekend they celebrate the day they kicked Alien arse.
Its almost like people believe that Russia didnt and dosent do anything wrong.
Everything wrong thats happening in Eastern Europe is in some way related to what the Russians did to us.
After all, why do you think we hate you so much?
You Russians preformed genocides in our countries, enslaved our people and ruined our economies all that throughout the 20th century.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/04 09:21:52
motyak wrote:[...] Yes, the mods are illuminati, and yakface, lego and dakka dakka itself are the 3 points of the triangle.
chromedog
Why not to try? But all I yet got there is neglecting and laugh.
I'm not a deaf patriot like some others.
You Russians preformed genocides in our countries, enslaved our people and ruined our economies all that throughout the 20th century.
Everyone did mistakes in past. Stalin did Katyn in 1940. But in 1920-1921 in Poland 80000 bolshevik prisoners were died. All we can do now is to forgive each other.
And you forgot how USSR helped to rebuild Poland from ruins caused by nazis.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/04 10:29:02
Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
Its one thing to forgive eachother. Im all for it. But its really damn hard if one of the parties is actively trying to return things to how they were back then.
And you forgot how Russia rebuilded Poland from ruins caused by nazis.
You point out Katyn, and you wonder why they aren't grateful...
Contrary to feel good stories, people don't forgive easily, and in fact the easiest way to get them to forgive you is to just leave them alone for awhile (occupying their country with a brutal dictatorship for 50 years doesn't count). Spending the next 30 whining about how no one respects you anymore and making regular aggressive gestures towards your neighbors doesn't help.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/04 10:24:33
Everyone did mistakes in past. Stalin did Katyn in 1940. But in 1920-1921 in Poland 80000 bolshevik prisoners were died. All we can do now is to forgive each other.
And you forgot how Russia rebuilded Poland from ruins caused by nazis.
Youre saying we killed 80 000 prisoners of war? Thats ridiculous. We are not like you, we dont kill PoWs en masse.
You also killed thousands of our people after the war, not just during it.
How many men returned to their country after the war only to be executed by the NKVD?
Rebuilt from the damages done by the Nazis? Please. Arguably you Russians did more damage to Poland during the war than the Germans (For example during the Warsaw uprising).
We would have been far better off if you just stopped vandalizing Eastern Europe constantly.
Lordofhats sums it up pretty nicely too.
Also I love what you are implying by saying "we should all forgive eachother"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/04 10:28:00
motyak wrote:[...] Yes, the mods are illuminati, and yakface, lego and dakka dakka itself are the 3 points of the triangle.
Let's also ignore that the Nazi's invaded Poland because they had a deal with Stalin, Stalin would get Poland and they would keep out of each other's hair. (for a while) I like how this counts as rebuilding instead of invading.
Everyone did mistakes in past. Stalin did Katyn in 1940. But in 1920-1921 in Poland 80000 bolshevik prisoners were died. All we can do now is to forgive each other.
And you forgot how Russia rebuilded Poland from ruins caused by nazis.
Youre saying we killed 80 000 prisoners of war?
I think he's referring to the detention of Russians (not Bolsheviks, Imperial Russian soldiers) and Soviet soldiers captured during the Polish Soviet War, 80,000 of whom did die for a multitude of reasons, but acting like Poland killed them is rather inaccurate way of looking at it. A fair number of the prisoners were left by the Germans when WWI ended in Poland, who had no idea what to do with Imperial Army soldiers with Imperial Russia not existing anymore, especially when the fledgling Soviet Russia started a war with them. Poland was dealing with famine, poor infrastructure, a barely functioning government. A lot more than 80,000 people died in Poland in the early 1920's.
Its also ironic the the Polish-Soviet War is mentions since the war was precipitated on the notion of conquering Poland.
No one mentioned a shadowy long term plan. It is a simple matter of geopolitics and conflicting interests. Russia and Western nations have for centuries had conflicting interests, just like all European nations had with each other. Because Russia was and is powerful, Western nations have often tried to keep Russia down and prevent it from becoming a threat to their own interests. The real problem started when the Western European nations all started this huge anti-Russian alliance called NATO. That turned it from just a part of the Great Game into The West vs Russia.
For the time when Russia was the USSR, had the most powerful land military in history, and had shown the willingness to use it against non-aggressive powers (Finland, Poland, etc) and used worldwide socialist revolution as a tool of state, yeah.
Now, that's not to say that the USSR wasn't also justified in some of its own fears, but the two sides squaring off like that, with such vast political and economics differences, was inevitable for that time.
In the last few decades however, NATO had been progressively becoming less and less of a militarily functional organization and Europe was disarming and focusing its gaze elsewhere, largely outside of Europe and away from Russia. NATO, as a threat to Russia, was becoming increasingly less significant. The Dutch were looking at dumping their tank arsenal entirely, and there are fewer Germans, French, and British in uniform now than at any point since the mid 1800's. The armies of Europe were withering away until the brakes got put on over the last year.
Russia doesn't want economic integration or a world market, Russia wants to be self-sufficient and not rely on anyone else. Russia has always been self-sufficient. Russia may not export much, but it also imports little. Russia, in general, just wants to be left alone and have as little to do with foreigners as possible.
As Bastiat said, "When goods don't cross borders, armies will".
Autarky hasn't worked spectacularly well for any nation...ever. Ask the North Koreans how that's going for them. It didn't work for the USSR. Germany tried to use the exact same line of thinking (self sufficiency and reliance with as little to do with foreigners as possible) in the 1930's and 1940's and as the justification for the invasion of their neighbors to obtain Lebensraum, and that didn't work out for them. Japan too had much the same idea, and got the same results Germany did.
As for Exports, Russia does export a lot, it's just in resources. In fact, it's largely exports that have driven the Russian economy and recover since the late 90's, particularly energy exports. The Russian economy is critically dependent on the success of these exports. The problem is that these are products that lots of other nations can produce and that often have alternatives and the prices can collapse relatively easily.
Meanwhile, Russia has no economically viable producers of many consumer and industrial items, particularly technology items. Russia only just last month made its first commercially available computer with a domestically produced PC CPU, and it's a 200,000 Ruble ($4,000) machine, with significantly less processing power than Intel equivalents costing a small fraction of that, and still has to use foreign designed and produced components like video cards.
Autarky isn't any more realistic for Russia than it is anyone else, particularly if they want to stay on even par in terms of technology and standard of living. The USSR tried that, and it failed. North Korea has become the joke state of the world as a result of such a policy. The real effect of this policy is that China is gaining an increasing stake in the Russian economy to fuel her own boom and getting to play Loan Shark to the Russian state. This avoids have to deal with EU/NATO countries to the same extent, particularly in areas like finance, but China has been able to get terms out of agreements with Russia that France could only ever dream of.
Great powers and empires are not built on autarky, trade makes them powerful and rich.
It used to be constantly shifting power paradigms in the past, but that changed with NATO. Nonetheless, the past contains many examples of Western nations trying to keep Russia down to protect their own interests. The difference being that while in the past, Western European nations did so on their own and while also fighting each other, now they cooperate with each other against Russia.
Because, quite frankly, Russia has chosen not to remove the fears that created NATO in the first place. There had been suggestions of inviting Russia to join NATO by various different parties through the late 90's even as recently as 2010, even in places like Poland and Germany. The Russian government's envoy, Dmitry Rogozin, declined such an idea stating "Great powers don't join coalitions, they create coalitions. Russia considers itself a great power.". That's sort of the core of the issue. Russia wanted to be the top dog or not play, and Russia simply doesn't have the capability to be top dog with the other big kids, and it's not hard to see where problems are going to occur in that situation and why others may feel threatened.
That's not to say that Russia doesn't have it's own fears or some good reasons for those, but Russia actively, officially, and openly turned down the opportunity to change the fundamental nature of NATO because it couldn't be top dog. It effectively said "I don't need you, I'll create my own security partnership, with Blackjack and Hookers" when the subject of being included was brought up.
Now, for the present, Russia's takeover of Crimea was truly masterfully executed on an operational level, but the changing of national borders by military force (bloodless and marvelously coordinated though it was) in Europe by a major power is not something that had been done since the second world war and everyone had thought was a thing of the past, and has resulted in reinvigorating an otherwise withering NATO.
Freakazoitt wrote: chromedog
Why not to try? But all I yet got there is neglecting and laugh.
I'm not a deaf patriot like some others.
You Russians preformed genocides in our countries, enslaved our people and ruined our economies all that throughout the 20th century.
Everyone did mistakes in past. Stalin did Katyn in 1940. But in 1920-1921 in Poland 80000 bolshevik prisoners were died. All we can do now is to forgive each other.
And you forgot how USSR helped to rebuild Poland from ruins caused by nazis.
Everyone did mistakes in past. Stalin did Katyn in 1940. But in 1920-1921 in Poland 80000 bolshevik prisoners were died. All we can do now is to forgive each other.
And you forgot how Russia rebuilded Poland from ruins caused by nazis.
Youre saying we killed 80 000 prisoners of war? Thats ridiculous. We are not like you, we dont kill PoWs en masse.
To address this issue, there was some awkwardness after the 1920-21 war on both sides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_prisoners_and_internees_in_the_Soviet_Union_and_Lithuania_%281919%E2%80%9321%29 From most accounts it looks like tens of thousands of prisoners were simply retained by the USSR and never release and many executed, while a lot of those in Polish custody died of disease and starvation. About ~20,000 on both sides died while in the custody of the other.
As for rebuilding Poland after the Nazi's, let's be fair here, the USSR invaded half of Poland when the Nazi's did in full cooperation and pre-planned intent with the Nazi's (while Britain and France ostensibly went to war to defend Poland...but only declared war on Germany and not the USSR, and did basically nothing all to actually help Poland either way), and the USSR kept that half after the war (giving German territory to Poland instead), and actively prevented the pre-war government form returning and a host of other things.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/04 10:50:35
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Youre saying we killed 80 000 prisoners of war? Thats ridiculous. We are not like you, we dont kill PoWs en masse.
...and 60000 more were disapeeared.
But I'm not blame Poland. Civil Wars always brutal.
How many men returned to their country after the war only to be executed by the NKVD?
That was happened, because of communists, Stalin, revenge for Civil War, Britain's gak and many other thing not exist now. Not because russians want to kill polish because they are evil devil.
Arguably you Russians did more damage to Poland during the war than the Germans (For example during the Warsaw uprising).
Please explain what Russian damaged during Wasraw uprising (are you taling about 1944?),
Soladrin wrote: Let's also ignore that the Nazi's invaded Poland because they had a deal with Stalin, Stalin would get Poland and they would keep out of each other's hair. (for a while) I like how this counts as rebuilding instead of invading.
It happen, because Britain and France allowed nazis to do that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/04 10:54:38
Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
Yes, NATO is a way of binding together the European countries, but under American leadership. Nothing gets done in NATO without US leadership, and while not every Western European NATO member may cooperate every time on every single issue, in general, they do cooperate and coordinate their actions with each other.
That depends. NATO Military action does tend to occur with American involvement, it is true. That is primarily the result of America providing the majority of the remote strike capabilities/support in NATO though, I would say. Primarily because barring defence of a NATO country (and none has ever been attacked) if America isn't on board with a military strike, it's quite difficult to make it happen.
But I'd separate that from 'American leadership'. God only knows, we all bicker like cats in a sack. We might occasionally do something to US interests (if it follows our own as well), but even then we don't quite 'follow' the US line. Differing nationalities and cultures tend to be an obstacle to that sort of thing.
Modern NATO has nothing to do with WW2. NATO accepts and actively looks for new members. All those new members who joined long after NATO was formed are next to Russia or even on former Russian territory. Most partnerships etc. also are with countries next to Russia. Claiming that is all coincidence is closing your eyes on purpose.
NATO itself was formed for two reasons. To bind European countries together to stop them warring against each other, and in fear of the Soviet threat (more commonly known as 'Stalin with 'da bomb )
As others have pointed out though, the reason that many nations next to Russia or made up from the remnants of the Union are keen on NATO, is because they see it as a way out from Russian influence. Please allow me to extrapolate.
If you were the leader of a country bordering Russia right now, you'd see the Russian Premier tightening his grip on power. You'd see him ramping up military spending, and you'd see him beginning to interfere militarily along the borders. To any country, this constitutes a potential threat, and as it's leader, you are responsible for lessening it. So what do you do? Your country is no match for Russia, economically or militarily. Your economy likely has heavy trade links with Russia.
You essentially have three options:-
-You stay as quiet as possible, and hope no-one notices you.
-You throw in your lot with Russia wholeheartedly.
-You try and join the EU/NATO, because the EU gives economic links to supplement or replace those of Russia, and NATO wards off any potential Russian military meddling/invasion.
Looking at it logically, you can try option 1. If things are generally quiet, there's no harm in maintaining the status quo, but it's a short termist policy at best. You can throw in your lot with Russia, and do whatever they say, but this likely means being expected to jump when the Russian Premier says so. You might be fine, but then again, you might end up with the Russians effectively making your foreign and economic policy for you. It's a heavy gamble for an independent nation. The third option meanwhile, does not require much in the way of input (most NATO members haven't met their 2% target in years), but allows you to draw upon the military might of a bloc of countries. That allows your run your own military spending down. The economic options opened up by the European Common Market are phenomenal, and far exceed what Russia can offer.
The cost meanwhile, is that you integrate a chunk of your armed forces along NATO lines, and meet EU directions on freedom of speech and suchlike. If you're of a naturally dictatorial type, that might be too high a price for you. But even if you are, you wouldn't be looking to throw in with Russia completely anyway, but rather just take the first option. But that's just you. Assuming that one of your successors is less inclined that way, the odds are that logically, the EU/NATO offer the best prospects.NATO countries also don't war against each other, so you have security of borders that an alliance with Russia might not give you.
The result has been that nation after nation has thrown their hat into the NATO/EU rings. Realpolitik usually dictates the action of nations, and those two organisations tend to offer the maximum possible positive outcomes, with the fewest negatives. It's not necessarily a case, I don't think, of NATO or the EU going, 'Let's encircle Russia', so much as it is countries asking to join, and then being granted access. NATO doesn't actively encourage people to come and join it, by pure virtue of the fact that it doesn't have to. It is not unreasonable to suggest that joining it is the most logical option for most countries who could, and so they have done so.
It doesn't matter whether NATO as an organisation was involved. NATO as an organisation in itself is not important because it has no power or influence or whatever of itself. What matters is the NATO states, because their cooperation also takes place outside of what is officially NATO. Therefore distinguising between conflicts that had NATO as organisation involved and conflicts that involved a coalition of NATO states is useless nitpicking, because both are functionally the same.
Okay. But if that is the case, then you must judge the co-operation between foreign nations individually. You cannot say that NATO is encircling Russia, and then say that the actions of NATO are irrelevant in and of itself, but it is rather the member states that should be paid attention to. The two are mutually exclusive, I think, to the point you are trying to make.
I have zero interest in battering my head against a brick wall thanks. It is a lovely day and I am going to paint some models.
So, what we have:
1) You saying that my vision is false as default. But it's not "different points of view". It's disabling my point of view.
2) You have nothing to disapprove me.
Bye, have a nice day.
Anyone else?
I'll be honest, I have no desire to engage with you. I know that if you listen carefully to what he's saying, and discuss things reasonably with Iron_Captain, both can come away with a certain degree of additional knowledge from time to time (even if we just agree to disagree). With you, I get the impression I'd be wasting my time. I'm not sure if that's the impression you want to be giving, but it's honestly the one I'm getting.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/04 10:58:45
Youre saying we killed 80 000 prisoners of war? Thats ridiculous. We are not like you, we dont kill PoWs en masse.
...and 60000 more were disapeeared.
But I'm not blame Poland. Civil Wars always brutal.
So youre implying we killed over 140 000 people? Im speechless to be honest.
And it was YOU invading us (again) not us attacking you.
How many men returned to their country after the war only to be executed by the NKVD?
That was happened, because of communists, Stalin, revenge for Civil War, Britain's gak and many other thing not exist now. Not because russians want to kill polish because they are evil devil.
Oh so they werent Russians? Just because it happened 70~ years ago does not make it any less relevant.
Arguably you Russians did more damage to Poland during the war than the Germans (For example during the Warsaw uprising).
Please explain what Russian damaged during Wasraw uprising (are you taling about 1944?),
Oh just that small thing with multiple divisions sitting a few km from Warsaw during the uprising not doing anything.
motyak wrote:[...] Yes, the mods are illuminati, and yakface, lego and dakka dakka itself are the 3 points of the triangle.
But I'm not blame Poland. Civil Wars always brutal.
Soviet Ukraine and the Soviet Union (because they were two states at one point) and the Second Polish Republic went to war in 1919, nominally, over disputed territories that both wanted to lay claim to.. That is not a Civil War. It's just a war. I'm actually surprised to learn Russia is still spinning the Civil War angle, because it was always ridiculous. i just thought they'd stop repeating it ages ago.
It happen, because Britain and France allowed nazis to do that.
That doesn't even remotely absolve Russia of it's own role in those events. Germany likely wouldn't have invaded without a nonaggression pact with the Soviet Union.
Honestly. You wonder why no one is trying to 'prove' anything to you, when your comments are basically regurgitated nonsense so distinct from reality it boggles the mind anyone actually believes it.
And it was YOU invading us (again) not us attacking you.
To be fair, Poland shares a degree of blame for starting the war (Poland really wanted Belarus), but Polands war goals were far more tame and less "conquer it all and worry about it later' than Russia's, which both wanted to war and to use it as a valid excuse to retaliate and conquer Poland.
It's all really a giant mess because the formation of the 'Ukraine' as a singular region rather than a disparate one was happening at the same time, and both the Poles, 'Ukrainians' and Russians had valid territorial claims to the lands they were fighting over initially. Russian however intended to go much further than pushing legitimate territorial claims, and unsurprisingly, Poland only wanted the lands in the first place to form a bulwark against Russian hegemony, because it's not like this whole Russia v Poland thing started at the end of WWII. It's a fair bit older than that.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/04 11:10:24
Daemonhammer wrote: So youre implying we killed over 140 000 people? Im speechless to be honest.
And it was YOU invading us (again) not us attacking you.
200000 prisoned, 80000 pows died for many reasons (but many of them tortured to death) and 60000 disappeared.
Oh so they werent Russians? Just because it happened 70~ years ago does not make it any less relevant.
weren't totalitarians who think that Poland is just illegal rebelled state
Oh just that small thing with multiple divisions sitting a few km from Warsaw during the uprising not doing anything.
These divisions were VERY exhausted by hard fighting and do you know why uprising happen? Because Britain ordered them to do uprising and take control over Warsaw quickly BEFORE SOVIET WILL ADVANCE. There were no coordination between them, How they can coordinate if uprising was controlled from London?
Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
We also had people living all over the place back then, for example the western Ukraine region (around Lwów) was practically Polish with a Polish majority, which is where half of my family comes from.
Daemonhammer wrote: So youre implying we killed over 140 000 people? Im speechless to be honest.
And it was YOU invading us (again) not us attacking you.
200000 prisoned, 80000 pows died for many reasons (but many of them tortured to death) and 60000 disappeared.
Wow. Just wow. Maybe we started the holocaust too?
Oh so they werent Russians? Just because it happened 70~ years ago does not make it any less relevant.
weren't totalitarians who think that Poland is just illegal rebelled state
What?
Oh just that small thing with multiple divisions sitting a few km from Warsaw during the uprising not doing anything.
These divisions were VERY exhausted by hard fighting and do you know why uprising happen? Because Britain ordered them to do uprising and take control over Warsaw quickly BEFORE SOVIET WILL ADVANCE. There were no coordination between them, How they can coordinate if uprising was controlled from London?
Yeah right, they were exhausted. It had nothing to do with the orders of the upper Soviet leadership.
Convenient how your forces "got tired" around the same time thousands of partisans were being killed.
The same people who might later demand a small thing like having their country back.
And since when did the Red army care about the tiredness of its soldiers?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/04 11:22:38
motyak wrote:[...] Yes, the mods are illuminati, and yakface, lego and dakka dakka itself are the 3 points of the triangle.
200000 prisoned, 80000 pows died for many reasons (but many of them tortured to death) and 60000 disappeared.
Russia's claims that POWs were tortured have no basis in fact. In fact, many of the POWs weren't even guarded. They were too weak to escape, and the Imperial ones by and large didn't even want to cause they didn't want to return to a Russia that had made a habit of executing Imperial soldiers.
These divisions were VERY exhausted by hard fighting and do you know why uprising happen? Because Britain ordered them to do uprising and take control over Warsaw quickly BEFORE SOVIET WILL ADVANCE. There were no coordination between them, How they can coordinate if uprising was controlled from London?
That's a rather distorted view of what happened. The British were afraid that if the Soviets 'liberated' Poland, they'd never leave (huh, turns out that's exactly what happened.... Guess they were right?) but that if the Poles liberated themselves with Russian help, that Russia could be persuaded not to occupy Poland after the war. Britain hoped that timing the Warsaw Uprising the advancing Russian troops would result in both sides working together, and was frankly, was a pretty standard British concept that was also used in France, the Netherlands, and Belgium.
Germany actually did Poland and Russia a favor by pulling out of Warsaw because they knew they couldn't hold the city (and some hoped the Polish rebels and Russian troops would start fighting each other). Russia stopping it's advance really did screw the Polish Resistance. They could have just marched in and gotten the city virtually free of charge and moved on, except Russia knew exactly what Britain was doing, wanted to conquer Poland anyway, and saw a really easy way to let the future Anti-Soviet Polish Resistance get itself killed, so they sat back and waited for the Germans to lose patience and go into the city and crush the Polish Resistance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daemonhammer wrote: And since when did the Red army care about the tiredness of its soldiers?
Well, they were tired, and the Red Army in 1944 wasn't as brutal as it had been in 1942 towards its own men (still not a great place though) but that was just kind of a fringe benefit of sitting back and letting Germany deal with a future problem for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/04 11:24:21
Russia's claims that POWs were tortured have no basis in fact. In fact, many of the POWs weren't even guarded. They were too weak to escape, and the Imperial ones by and large didn't even want to cause they didn't want to return to a Russia that had made a habit of executing Imperial soldiers.
What? Almost all bolsheviks army that time was ex Imperial Army.
1) Today Russia is not communist totalitarian with NKVD and GULAG.
2) Today Russia don't think that Poland is illegal rebelled state
Yeah right, they were exhausted. It had nothing to do with the orders of the upper Soviet leadership.
Convenient how your forces "got tired" around the same time thousands of partisans were being killed.
The same people who might later demand a small thing like having their country back.
They can't just scream "O look, there something happening let's go there". Warmachine is very bulky to make desicions.
And since when did the Red army care about the tiredness of its soldiers?
Jukov was not only general in Red army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/04 11:32:32
Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
Wow. Just wow. Maybe we started the holocaust too?
I repeat, I don't blame Poland.
Yet again, i dont know if i should laugh or cry at what you are saying.
1) Today Russia is not communist totalitarian with NKVD and GULAG.
Its still a totalitarian state.
No NKVD but FSB and FSO instead nowadays.
I wonder though what happens to all these people that dont like Putin and that Putin dosent like.
2) Today Russia don't think that Poland is illegal rebelled state
Not yet.
Yeah right, they were exhausted. It had nothing to do with the orders of the upper Soviet leadership.
Convenient how your forces "got tired" around the same time thousands of partisans were being killed.
The same people who might later demand a small thing like having their country back.
They can't just scream "O look, there something happening let's go there". Warmachine is very bulky to make desicions.
Yeah, make more excuses.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/04 11:44:08
motyak wrote:[...] Yes, the mods are illuminati, and yakface, lego and dakka dakka itself are the 3 points of the triangle.
What? Almost all bolsheviks army that time was ex Imperial Army.
Perhaps because I was vague;
The Soviets made a very quick habit of executing soldiers who didn't get on the 'party platform' and even those who did but weren't doing a good enough job. Tens of thousands of soldiers were executed over the course of the Russian Civil War (and Russian media popularly celebrated it at that), and naturally most of those executed were former Imperial Army, many of them 'political' officers in the sense that Russia was spending a lot of time wiping out the old nobility one family member at a time.
Because Karma, a lot of those who did the executing eventually got executed, and those who did the executing of the executing eventually got executed too... There's a Monty Python reference here somewhere. Something about sacking
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/04 12:03:30
Because Karma, a lot of those who did the executing eventually got executed, and those who did the executing of the executing eventually got executed too... There's a Monty Python reference here somewhere. Something about sacking
USSR not invaded Poland 1939. They just took back, what Poland captured in 1918-1920 war. Russia not resposible for Germany invaded Poland, it's Britain and allies resposibility. They have to fight against German, as stated in agreement but did nothing. Like they did nothing during invasion to Czechoslovakia,
Its still a totalitarian state.
No NKVD but FSB and FSO instead nowadays.
I wonder though what happens to all these people that dont like Putin and that Putin dosent like.
If compared to Stalin times, it's totally different,
Not yet.
How do you know?
Yeah, make more excuses.
Emmm... probably didn't recieve an order to advance, because uprising was politically against soviets (while miliarily it was against germans), because
Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
USSR not invaded Poland 1939. They just took back, what Poland captured in 1918-1920 war.
What Poland recaptured in the 1919-21 war was Polish lands anyway, with Polish majority population.
Also what this implies is that atleast half of Poland was somehow Russian.
Russia was responsible too because Poland would be able to fight atleast twice as long have the Russians not stabbed us in the back and forced us to fight on two fronts.
Its still a totalitarian state.
No NKVD but FSB and FSO instead nowadays.
I wonder though what happens to all these people that dont like Putin and that Putin dosent like.
If compared to Stalin times, it's totally different,
Yet political enemies have a tendency to disappear or commit suicide.
Not yet.
How do you know?
Because thats how Russia works nowadays? You claim something is illegal and actually belongs to you and suddenly there are Russian soldiers everywhere.
Yeah, make more excuses.
Emmm... probably didn't recieve an order to advance, because uprising was politically against soviets (while miliarily it was against germans), because
You just confirmed what I said before.
motyak wrote:[...] Yes, the mods are illuminati, and yakface, lego and dakka dakka itself are the 3 points of the triangle.
Paranoid is to fear communists invasion after 24 years they disappeared. Just replased "Communists" with "Putin"
Probably because the internal politics of the Russian Federation are fundamentally the same as those of the USSR (putting on a different hat doesn't change much), and Russia keeps invading their neighbors.
You don't see the US invading Mexico because of Cartels or Canada because we want their maple (we do want their maple though).
We can whine plenty about the evils of US foreign policy, but that doesn't make Russia any less antagonistic than it is. Things were actually starting to look up until the Georgia crisis, and then everyone started worrying that Russia had changed hats but was ultimately the same state it had been before. Ukraine only furthers those fears. Russia can't bitch about NATO when NATO's existence and continuance is justified by Russian foreign policy.
Have you ever considered that it might actually be NATO policy that is driving Russia towards those actions? Constantly painting Russia as antagonistic is not really going to improve things, is it not? Also, there are huuuuuuuuuuge differences between the internal politics of Soviet Union and Russian Federation. Russian Federation is not communist, and it is very conservative where the Soviet Union was really liberal.
Ghazkuul wrote:
There were news reports recently of an "I hate Russians" T-shirt that showed up in one community.
Seriously that's the extent of your hatred against Russian transplants? grow the heck up.
Russia invaded and violently suppressed several countries and regions and then after the Soviet Union collapsed in on itself they all gained independence. Those Russian citizens who were forced by the Soviet government to relocate to these other countries are stuck in a country that no longer holds close ties to Russia but at the same time they have 2 choices, either adapt to their new country or move back to Russia.
You don't seem to know much about the situation. Many ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia are not citizens at all, because they were refused passports when those countries became independent, on basis that they were Russian. Earning citizenship is made very hard for them on purpose and requires them to betray their own ethnic identity. Returning to Russia is not possible, even if they wanted, because they have no passports. They are discriminated against by the Estonian or Latvian populations and lack many basic rights (russian-language media and schools are severely restricted for example).
I wonder why Russian is restricted...Ohh yeah thats right because Russia VIOLENTLY suppressed their cultural heritage for decades while they were occupied by the Russians. What these countries want is their national identity back. And they can return to Russia simply by visiting an embassy and saying "I want to go back to Russia". Sucks to be them and I am deeply sorry they can't get the same rights as those who they violently oppressed for decades but that is Russia/Soviet Unions fault not the little countries.
So them getting their national identity back requires them to supress the Russians they lived alongside for centuries? At that point, we should ask the question: Do we even want those countries to have their national identity back if discrimination of other ethnicities and honouring their Nazi past seems to be such an integral part of it? Is it actually a good thing to allow these crimes for the sake of 'national identity'? That would be similar to stripping US citizenship and basic rights of all white citizens of former Confederate states based on the fact that white people historically opressed black people in those areas and that now supression of white people is needed for black identity.
Do you think that the fact that Russians opressed Latvian and Estonians in the past is a good reason for Latvians and Estonians to opress Russians now? Don't forget that those Russians being opressed had no part in the opression of Latvians and Estonians, which was done by the Soviet government (which was made up of people from all over the USSR, not just Russians), not the Russian people. The Russians simply lived there alongside the Estonians and Latvians in peace. It is their home as much as it is that of Estonians and Latvians. They have become the victims of the past policies of a state that does not even exist anymore, and you think this is justified?
And now, you can't immigrate to Russia by just going to a Russian embassy and saying: I want to go to Russia. Not even if you are ethnic Russian, and especially not when you have no documents.
You might need to go read another history book, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia weren't Nazi's. And if they lived in those 3 countries for hundreds of years they would be Locals not Russian transplants and would have no problem obtaining citizenship. seriously dude stop buying into the Propaganda of the Russians so hardcore.
Also, ethnic Russians have lived and settled in the what is now the Baltic states alongside the Baltic peoples for a thousand years, as far as recorded history goes back. Most of the current generation of ethnic Russians has been actually born in the Baltic States, their parents having immigrated or forcedly relocated there in Soviet times. At what point does a land become one's native land? By your logic, should all Americans get out of the USA too and return to Europe and Africa because they are all recent immigrants compared to native Americans? Or should Hispanics be forced out because they are recent immigrants compared to other Americans? Why do you hate immigrants so much?
Daemonhammer wrote: I honestly dont know if i should laugh or cry at the concept of "Baltic states are nazi!".
Baltic states are not Nazi, that was only in the past. Most modern Balts are not Nazis, even if Russian propaganda says so. The treatment of ethnic Russians in the Baltic States and the historic revisionism of Estonia's and Latvia's Nazi past is pretty scary though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/04 12:55:03
Yes. I find it greatly disturbing how being conquered by the Nazi's and forced into their regime has been historically revised as some kind of black mark of of guilt
Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
~2800 points 
)
