Ustrello wrote:

 Daemonhammer wrote:
I wonder if Russians like him actually see us Polish people (and people from the Baltic states) as the bad guys.

This reminds me of a comic I saw [...]

 Daemonhammer wrote:
I wonder if Russians like him actually see us Polish people (and people from the Baltic states) as the bad guys.

 Daemonhammer wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 Daemonhammer wrote:
I wonder if Russians like him actually see us Polish people (and people from the Baltic states) as the bad guys.

This reminds me of a comic I saw [...]

I love Polandball, so much political commentary and satire in these short comics.

Spoiler:

Balts (at least Estonians and Latvians) are generally considered pretty bad, yes. That nazi-worshipping stuff they have going on kinda does that, especially because whenever a neo-nazi is sighted in the Baltic states, all Russian media are on it. Not to mention that the large Russian populations in the Baltic states often have their rights violated and are treated as second-class people. (Lithuania is a nice exception though).

djones520 wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:
So is there any solution to stop second Cold War? It's very resources and nerves wasting

Tell your government to stop it's expansionist policies.

Ketara wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
With the West I mean NATO. (most Western countries are NATO members, so that is why it often gets used when referring to NATO)

Still more common than invasions by Russia.
And besides, you can't just simply exclude America. America is NATO. The European countries are just sidekicks that go along because they many of the same goals and also profit from US imperialism.

See, this lumping together of everyone in Europe under the thumb of the Americans and the blanket label of 'the West' is where I honestly think you go a bit off track. NATO is full of countries like those I just listed, who want nothing more than to get on with life. Then you have another tier of European countries who are a bit bigger, and tend to chase their own interests. And then you have America, who are like those European countries but bigger and more powerful than any of them individually.

Sometimes some of us go along with America (because it fits our interests to do so, we've all been playing the Great Game for longer than these Yank upstarts!)

But quite often, we don't. There's a reason a lot of Americans complain about how all we Europeans do is sit there and criticise them. The truth is, most of Europe left WW2 exhausted and deeply psychologically scarred by two generations of conflict. NATO would have been a possibility/likelihood even without the Americans. NATO, like the EU, is a way of binding together all those advanced European nations who have tremendous economic power, and the capacity to produce corresponding tremendous military power.

Ketara wrote:

How convenient than that all NATO allies somehow add to the surrounding of Russia? Why does NATO not have members in South America, Africa or South Asia, but only in regions bordering Russia?

Because none of those nations had just finished a set of destructive European wars mere years before NATO was formed.

Ketara wrote:

If you say NATO is a defensive alliance, you are fooling yourself. Ask any Serb how defensive NATO is!
How were Serbia, Iraq Libya etc. threats to NATO?

Libya wasn't a NATO operation. Neither were the Iraqi wars. I think you need to distinguish between wars that had NATO members involved in them, and wars that had NATO as an organisation involved in them. Otherwise, it makes it hard to have a discussion on the matter.

Vaktathi wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Because the West hates Russia and wants to keep it down.

What exactly do you define as "the West"...?

Methinks that there's some misunderstanding here. Russia isn't something people think about needing to be "subjugated". It isn't even a place most people think about a whole lot period. When MItt Romney said that Russia was the most important geopolitical threat the US faced in the 2012 election, he was responded to with laughter by almost everyone, because it was seen as him being two decades out of touch.

This is not to say that there haven't been donkey-cave moves by the US and other NATO nations towards Russia, there have been. US treatment of Russia after the fall of the USSR was very poorly handled. But to suggest that "the West" in general has some sort of shadowy long term plan to subjugate Russia is rather absurd, if for no other reason than it attributes a long term unity, force of will, and commitment that just isn't there.

Vaktathi wrote:

That is the whole reason. Russia doesn't want to bow down to the US and is therefore a threat to the Western world order which has to be contained. That is what NATO is for.

NATO continued to exist after the fall of the USSR because it was too much effort to dismantle it and they found other reasons to keep it around. Nobody was talking about NATO engaging in any sort of conflict with Russia three or four years ago.

NATO functions on the strength of the US military alone. It has effectively allowed and incentivized Europe to spend the last two decades disarming until very recently. This was a good thing, it was a stabilizing force amongst the countries within the alliance who had previously massacred each other by the millions. Europe's armies shrank, their capabilities withered, their will and need to resort to violence diminished, and they decided to stop funding and supporting massive military establishments and put that money elsewhere. The only reason NATO is able to pose a conventional threat to anyone really is because the US military takes up a huge amount of slack.

Really, the bigger problem quite honestly is the low degree of integration on consumer and industrial goods that the US/EU and Russia have. Integrated economies typically don't have military tension. In the US, about the only Russian products you'll find are booze, crab, and surplus military equipment. Russia's exports to other nations, while different in composition, have largely the same problem. It's mostly resources. As much as a fan as I am of Kalashnikov rifles and cheap ammunition, if that's the most recognized "Consumer' product of a nation, it doesn't speak well to economic integration (even before import from Izhmash was banned), particularly when half a dozen (or more) other nations export the same product (Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, Serbia, etc). Russian export composition is largely commodity based. I have clothes from Bangladesh, shoes from Thailand, a TV from Japan, a phone made in Korea, a watch made in Germany, paintbrushes from Spain, gaming miniatures from the UK, a car assembled in Japan from parts made in Mexico, countless things from China (flasks, silverware, tackle boxes, cups, etc), computer components from India and Vietnam, but the only things I have from Russia are Izhevsk manufactured AK-74 magazines, and those were specially sought out specifically because they were Russian, I had to go out of my way to look for and buy them just for that special fact.

Russia's economic integration level with most other nations is effectively that of a developing nation, even if the volumes of trade are large. That means issues that arise are much more likely to be seen as with "the other" as opposed to "the neighbor".

Vaktathi wrote:

Yes, the West trying to contain Russia to protect its own interests goes back many centuries.

You make it sound like there was some sort of organized anti-Russian secret cabal, rather than constantly shifting power paradigms that constantly tried to take down whoever was looking to start being top dog. The western and central Europeans fought amongst each other and backstabbed each other at least as much as they did anything to Russia, usually moreso. Even issues with the US are less than a hundred years old, all post-revolution issues and in fact mostly post WW2.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Balts (at least Estonians and Latvians) are generally considered pretty bad, yes. That nazi-worshipping stuff they have going on kinda does that, especially because whenever a neo-nazi is sighted in the Baltic states, all Russian media are on it. Not to mention that the large Russian populations in the Baltic states often have their rights violated and are treated as second-class people. (Lithuania is a nice exception though).

Tell me that doesn't smack of state approved propaganda. Btw, that is exactly how Hitler started WWII. "The Germans in *Insert name of country here* are being oppressed, Germany must rescue her countrymen.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

djones520 wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:
So is there any solution to stop second Cold War? It's very resources and nerves wasting

Tell your government to stop it's expansionist policies.

No, you should tell your government to stop its expansionist policies.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

djones520 wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:
So is there any solution to stop second Cold War? It's very resources and nerves wasting

Tell your government to stop it's expansionist policies.

No, you should tell your government to stop its expansionist policies.

I'm sorry, how does the US have expansionist policies? We meddle (as do all great powers, Russia included), but you don't see us stealing entire sections of land from other countires, or supporting and supplying groups that want to become part of our country, now do you?

Iron_Captain wrote:Because the West hates Russia and wants to keep it down. That is the whole reason. Russia doesn't want to bow down to the US and is therefore a threat to the Western world order which has to be contained. That is what NATO is for.

Ketara wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Because the West hates Russia and wants to keep it down.

That's just a teensy bit paranoid.

What the West wants, is to be able to go about it's business without fear of invasion or people interfering with their trade. If by 'keep Russia down', you mean, 'Have Russia respect current international borders and freedom of trade', then yes. We don't want the rise of a new militaristic Russian Empire. We'd much rather have the rise of a Russia that keeps the peace with the rest of us, and joins us in trying to gouge each other (and the rest of the world) in mercantile fields.

Wyrmalla wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Look at how often in this century NATO countries have invaded other countries and how often Russia has.

Soladrin wrote:How stop cold war 2.0. Tell Putin to feth off.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

djones520 wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:
So is there any solution to stop second Cold War? It's very resources and nerves wasting

Tell your government to stop it's expansionist policies.

No, you should tell your government to stop its expansionist policies.

I'm sorry, how does the US have expansionist policies? We meddle (as do all great powers, Russia included), but you don't see us stealing entire sections of land from other countires, or supporting and supplying groups that want to become part of our country, now do you?

How is the US policies to expand its influence and maintain and reinforce its status as world hegemon not expansionist? Why does the US have opened so much military bases all over the world? US military influence is everywhere, how is that not expansionist?
The US does not take territory with hard power, but with soft power. To me, that is pretty much the same.

There were news reports recently of an "I hate Russians" T-shirt that showed up in one community.

Paranoid is to fear communists invasion after 24 years they disappeared. Just replased "Communists" with "Putin"

LordofHats wrote:

Paranoid is to fear communists invasion after 24 years they disappeared. Just replased "Communists" with "Putin"

Probably because the internal politics of the Russian Federation are fundamentally the same as those of the USSR (putting on a different hat doesn't change much), and Russia keeps invading their neighbors.

You don't see the US invading Mexico because of Cartels or Canada because we want their maple (we do want their maple though).

We can whine plenty about the evils of US foreign policy, but that doesn't make Russia any less antagonistic than it is. Things were actually starting to look up until the Georgia crisis, and then everyone started worrying that Russia had changed hats but was ultimately the same state it had been before. Ukraine only furthers those fears. Russia can't bitch about NATO when NATO's existence and continuance is justified by Russian foreign policy.

Ghazkuul wrote:

There were news reports recently of an "I hate Russians" T-shirt that showed up in one community.

Seriously that's the extent of your hatred against Russian transplants? grow the heck up.

Russia invaded and violently suppressed several countries and regions and then after the Soviet Union collapsed in on itself they all gained independence. Those Russian citizens who were forced by the Soviet government to relocate to these other countries are stuck in a country that no longer holds close ties to Russia but at the same time they have 2 choices, either adapt to their new country or move back to Russia.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

LordofHats wrote:

Paranoid is to fear communists invasion after 24 years they disappeared. Just replased "Communists" with "Putin"

Probably because the internal politics of the Russian Federation are fundamentally the same as those of the USSR (putting on a different hat doesn't change much), and Russia keeps invading their neighbors.

You don't see the US invading Mexico because of Cartels or Canada because we want their maple (we do want their maple though).

We can whine plenty about the evils of US foreign policy, but that doesn't make Russia any less antagonistic than it is. Things were actually starting to look up until the Georgia crisis, and then everyone started worrying that Russia had changed hats but was ultimately the same state it had been before. Ukraine only furthers those fears. Russia can't bitch about NATO when NATO's existence and continuance is justified by Russian foreign policy.

Have you ever considered that it might actually be NATO policy that is driving Russia towards those actions?
Constantly painting Russia as antagonistic is not really going to improve things, is it not?
Also, there are huuuuuuuuuuge differences between the internal politics of Soviet Union and Russian Federation. Russian Federation is not communist, and it is very conservative where the Soviet Union was really liberal.

Ghazkuul wrote:

There were news reports recently of an "I hate Russians" T-shirt that showed up in one community.

Seriously that's the extent of your hatred against Russian transplants? grow the heck up.

Russia invaded and violently suppressed several countries and regions and then after the Soviet Union collapsed in on itself they all gained independence. Those Russian citizens who were forced by the Soviet government to relocate to these other countries are stuck in a country that no longer holds close ties to Russia but at the same time they have 2 choices, either adapt to their new country or move back to Russia.

You don't seem to know much about the situation. Many ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia are not citizens at all, because they were refused passports when those countries became independent, on basis that they were Russian. Earning citizenship is made very hard for them on purpose and requires them to betray their own ethnic identity. Returning to Russia is not possible, even if they wanted, because they have no passports. They are discriminated against by the Estonian or Latvian populations and lack many basic rights (russian-language media and schools are severely restricted for example).

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

LordofHats wrote:

Paranoid is to fear communists invasion after 24 years they disappeared. Just replased "Communists" with "Putin"

Probably because the internal politics of the Russian Federation are fundamentally the same as those of the USSR (putting on a different hat doesn't change much), and Russia keeps invading their neighbors.

You don't see the US invading Mexico because of Cartels or Canada because we want their maple (we do want their maple though).

We can whine plenty about the evils of US foreign policy, but that doesn't make Russia any less antagonistic than it is. Things were actually starting to look up until the Georgia crisis, and then everyone started worrying that Russia had changed hats but was ultimately the same state it had been before. Ukraine only furthers those fears. Russia can't bitch about NATO when NATO's existence and continuance is justified by Russian foreign policy.

Have you ever considered that it might actually be NATO policy that is driving Russia towards those actions?
Constantly painting Russia as antagonistic is not really going to improve things, is it not?
Also, there are huuuuuuuuuuge differences between the internal politics of Soviet Union and Russian Federation. Russian Federation is not communist, and it is very conservative where the Soviet Union was really liberal.

Ghazkuul wrote:

There were news reports recently of an "I hate Russians" T-shirt that showed up in one community.

Seriously that's the extent of your hatred against Russian transplants? grow the heck up.

Russia invaded and violently suppressed several countries and regions and then after the Soviet Union collapsed in on itself they all gained independence. Those Russian citizens who were forced by the Soviet government to relocate to these other countries are stuck in a country that no longer holds close ties to Russia but at the same time they have 2 choices, either adapt to their new country or move back to Russia.

You don't seem to know much about the situation. Many ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia are not citizens at all, because they were refused passports when those countries became independent, on basis that they were Russian. Earning citizenship is made very hard for them on purpose and requires them to betray their own ethnic identity. Returning to Russia is not possible, even if they wanted, because they have no passports. They are discriminated against by the Estonian or Latvian populations and lack many basic rights (russian-language media and schools are severely restricted for example).

I wonder why Russian is restricted...Ohh yeah thats right because Russia VIOLENTLY suppressed their cultural heritage for decades while they were occupied by the Russians. What these countries want is their national identity back. And they can return to Russia simply by visiting an embassy and saying "I want to go back to Russia". Sucks to be them and I am deeply sorry they can't get the same rights as those who they violently oppressed for decades but that is Russia/Soviet Unions fault not the little countries.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

LordofHats wrote:

Paranoid is to fear communists invasion after 24 years they disappeared. Just replased "Communists" with "Putin"

Probably because the internal politics of the Russian Federation are fundamentally the same as those of the USSR (putting on a different hat doesn't change much), and Russia keeps invading their neighbors.

You don't see the US invading Mexico because of Cartels or Canada because we want their maple (we do want their maple though).

We can whine plenty about the evils of US foreign policy, but that doesn't make Russia any less antagonistic than it is. Things were actually starting to look up until the Georgia crisis, and then everyone started worrying that Russia had changed hats but was ultimately the same state it had been before. Ukraine only furthers those fears. Russia can't bitch about NATO when NATO's existence and continuance is justified by Russian foreign policy.

Have you ever considered that it might actually be NATO policy that is driving Russia towards those actions?
Constantly painting Russia as antagonistic is not really going to improve things, is it not?
Also, there are huuuuuuuuuuge differences between the internal politics of Soviet Union and Russian Federation. Russian Federation is not communist, and it is very conservative where the Soviet Union was really liberal.

Ghazkuul wrote:

There were news reports recently of an "I hate Russians" T-shirt that showed up in one community.

Seriously that's the extent of your hatred against Russian transplants? grow the heck up.

Russia invaded and violently suppressed several countries and regions and then after the Soviet Union collapsed in on itself they all gained independence. Those Russian citizens who were forced by the Soviet government to relocate to these other countries are stuck in a country that no longer holds close ties to Russia but at the same time they have 2 choices, either adapt to their new country or move back to Russia.

You don't seem to know much about the situation. Many ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia are not citizens at all, because they were refused passports when those countries became independent, on basis that they were Russian. Earning citizenship is made very hard for them on purpose and requires them to betray their own ethnic identity. Returning to Russia is not possible, even if they wanted, because they have no passports. They are discriminated against by the Estonian or Latvian populations and lack many basic rights (russian-language media and schools are severely restricted for example).

I wonder why Russian is restricted...Ohh yeah thats right because Russia VIOLENTLY suppressed their cultural heritage for decades while they were occupied by the Russians. What these countries want is their national identity back. And they can return to Russia simply by visiting an embassy and saying "I want to go back to Russia". Sucks to be them and I am deeply sorry they can't get the same rights as those who they violently oppressed for decades but that is Russia/Soviet Unions fault not the little countries.

So them getting their national identity back requires them to supress the Russians they lived alongside for centuries? At that point, we should ask the question: Do we even want those countries to have their national identity back if discrimination of other ethnicities and honouring their Nazi past seems to be such an integral part of it? Is it actually a good thing to allow these crimes for the sake of 'national identity'? That would be similar to stripping US citizenship and basic rights of all white citizens of former Confederate states based on the fact that white people historically opressed black people in those areas and that now supression of white people is needed for black identity.

Do you think that the fact that Russians opressed Latvian and Estonians in the past is a good reason for Latvians and Estonians to opress Russians now? Don't forget that those Russians being opressed had no part in the opression of Latvians and Estonians, which was done by the Soviet government (which was made up of people from all over the USSR, not just Russians), not the Russian people. The Russians simply lived there alongside the Estonians and Latvians in peace. It is their home as much as it is that of Estonians and Latvians. They have become the victims of the past policies of a state that does not even exist anymore, and you think this is justified?

And now, you can't immigrate to Russia by just going to a Russian embassy and saying: I want to go to Russia. Not even if you are ethnic Russian, and especially not when you have no documents.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Ignoring that neo-nazism is rampant in Eastern Europe in general, not just Ukraine and that the Separatists have their fair share of fascist groups as well. Hell one of the images that Russian news was using for a supposed Ukrainian Nazi had the guy covered in Russian flags...

Meh, Russia wants to portray their enemies as Nazis so they can go back to the "Great Patriotic War" stick that Putin's been promoting. Shame then that they don't look at their own doorstep to organisations like the Nashi which are stand ins for the Hitler Youth or the tons of state advocated gangs who hunt down minorities...

Damn, off-topic's not always the best place to look for a constructive discussion, but I keep forgetting what pits these Russia threads are.

 Freakazoitt wrote:
Different points of view are always good for objective picture of the events.