Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
We're discounting your opinion on the Dreadnoughts because it makes no sense. How is getting one extra attack if you take Hull Point damage from Overwatch going to break the game? The Dreadnought will get less hits in than three MANz on the charge (S10 vs S9, but half the hits) if you take Hull Point damage during Overwatch. It's such a non-issue that, as you've noticed, we're having trouble taking you seriously.

Well I don't think they need any extra attacks. I don't understand how that doesn't make sense.

Also: First it "You don't play competitively, therefore your opinion will be discounted." but now it's "You're opinion makes no sense, therefore it will be discounted"? Pick one excuse that actually makes sense and isn't derogatory, and stick with it.

I personally don't see the need to apply this change since it doesn't appear to address and/or fix any issue I know of, and I don't see any good reasoning to add it in. That being said, if the general consensus is that this is a change that should be made (for whatever reason), then I wil cease arguing this point.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
On Terminators, they had 2 heavies per 5 in 4th and didn't break the game then, despite being a relatively more powerful unit than now due to less power creep having happened. They're the worst unit in C:SM, 2 heavies per 5 is a start.

Fair enough. As long as it doesn't break the game, I don't really have any basis to refute this change. Though it s worth noting that you said it worked in 4th Edition whereas we're currently in 7th, so it would have to be play-tested.

Dreadnoughts don't "need" to get this minor buff, but the way Righteous Zeal affects them right now is just pointless; when are you ever losing one Dreadnought in a squadron to Overwatch fire and benefitting from giving the rest of the squadron Rage for a turn?

Honestly, considering your stance on Pistol pricing, the usefulness of Storm Bolters, calling Assault Marines with 2 meltaguns "pretty damn powerful", double heavies on Terminators and Dreadnoughts being OP because they got an attack buff I feel completely justified in claiming that you do not know what you are talking about. Your idea of where the power level that makes a unit good is not coherent with reality.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Honestly, considering your stance on Pistol pricing, the usefulness of Storm Bolters, calling Assault Marines with 2 meltaguns "pretty damn powerful", double heavies on Terminators and Dreadnoughts being OP because they got an attack buff I feel completely justified in claiming that you do not know what you are talking about. Your idea of where the power level that makes a unit good is not coherent with reality.

My opinions may not be coherent with competitive play, and they certainly aren't coherent with your own opinions as well as the opinions of many others, but that doesn't mean that I'm completely and utterly wrong. It also doesn't mean that I have no idea what I'm talking about. It simply means that I have a different view of the situation based on my experiences on the tabletop.

So instead of insulting me, convince me. I'm more than happy to be convinced.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Honestly, considering your stance on Pistol pricing, the usefulness of Storm Bolters, calling Assault Marines with 2 meltaguns "pretty damn powerful", double heavies on Terminators and Dreadnoughts being OP because they got an attack buff I feel completely justified in claiming that you do not know what you are talking about. Your idea of where the power level that makes a unit good is not coherent with reality.

My opinions may not be coherent with competitive play, and they certainly aren't coherent with your own opinions as well as the opinions of many others, but that doesn't mean that I'm completely and utterly wrong. It also doesn't mean that I have no idea what I'm talking about. It simply means that I have a different view of the situation based on my experiences on the tabletop.

So instead of insulting me, convince me. I'm more than happy to be convinced.

Evidence 1: Carcharadon Astra Dreadnoughts can already get Rage, and it's not breaking the game. Even Black Templars Dreadnoughts can already get Rage, it's just difficult to the extreme to get any use out of the Chapter Tactic as it currently stands.

Evidence 2: Terminators with 2 heavy weapons per 5 (technically 2 per squad, they didn't get 4 at 10) didn't break the game during 4th edition. Everything is far more potent these days that the most powerful units of 4th edition, ergo Terminators with 2 heavy weapons per 5 would not break the game.

Evidence 3: Blood Angels already get Meltaguns in Assault Marine squads, and they're not exactly trampling everyone else into the dust. Similarly, Raptors can take Meltaguns as well, and they're not murdering everything in their path.

That's 3 out of 4 mentioned ideas that either already exist in the game or has existed in the past without breaking the game. The conclusion thus is that you're wrong in your assertion that conditional Rage on Dreadnoughts would be OP, wrong in your assertion that Terminators with 2 heavy weapons per 5 models would be OP, and wrong in your fear of Assault Marines with Meltaguns being too strong. I realize that I'm coming across as somewhat of an ass, but many of the things you're taking issue with either already exist in some form or has existed in some form in the past. You're arguing points that area demonstrably untrue.

"Evidence 1" - I was not aware off; and all three points make sense; and I withdraw all previous objections on these points.

Thanks for making it clear

I'll post fixes for the FW Chapter Tactics and Characters later tonight. After that I'll try doing codex-specific units.

I think Combi weapons such as Grav or melta warrant their current cost. You get one good shot that can pay off with those weapons.I think the Lascannon and plasma guns could do with a price adjustment down, by about 5 points.

I'd like the option of two specials or heavy weapons for tactical marines, but meh, I can see the logic against it.

The drop pod for 35 points is probably a bit too good. It's resilient and cheap for what it does.

Equipment wise, terminator armour could probably be 20 points and no one would blink an eye.

I do like some of these proposed ideas but would like to add that Salamanders should be able to take Heavy Flamers in thei Tac squads and also get access to hand flamers and inferno pistols.

Honestly Heavy flamers should be available all around. im not sure of the restrictions only on stern guard or terminators.

as for handflamers and inferno pistols :/ meh.

I could've sworn I made mention of Heavy Flamers available on Tactical Squads.

I've been away and not at home, so there hasn't been an opportunity to post fixes regarding FW.

I saw the suggestion that assault marines should have their access to special weapons taken away?

I disagree. If anything, I think that they should be given access to more special weapons. If it was up to me, assault marines could take four special weapons from this list:

flamers, melta guns, plasma pistols and grav pistols

in the same way that devastators get four heavy weapons.

Space Marines need MASSIVE nerfs across the board and removal of grav weapons and all their insane amounts of flyers. Limit or remove Centurions entirely...and that about fixes them.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Space Marines need MASSIVE nerfs across the board and removal of grav weapons and all their insane amounts of flyers. Limit or remove Centurions entirely...and that about fixes them.

Meanwhile, back in reality, fliers are rarely taken in competitive lists, Centurions in themselves are only ever taken because of Grav-cannons, and most of the units in a vacuum are solidly meh and only become good in a formation or with 27 different allies.

In other words, you correctly identified the Grav-weapons as an issue and then swung and missed so widely you almost bust through a wall and ended up in the Age of Sigmar forums.

I think I have to give Assault Special Weapon access back to Assault Marines due to how APPARENTLY Grenades operate in Assault.

 Bryan01 wrote:
I think Combi weapons such as Grav or melta warrant their current cost. You get one good shot that can pay off with those weapons.I think the Lascannon and plasma guns could do with a price adjustment down, by about 5 points.

I'd like the option of two specials or heavy weapons for tactical marines, but meh, I can see the logic against it.

The drop pod for 35 points is probably a bit too good. It's resilient and cheap for what it does.

Equipment wise, terminator armour could probably be 20 points and no one would blink an eye.

Drop Pods was a special rule before it was a model. An entire army deepstriking for free (minus any heavy equipment) didn't break the game then.
I'd advocate that droppods not score and not give killpoints and be cheap enough for what they are- an alternate method of deployment.
Terminators and Assault marines don't get a discount when they choose not to deepstrike.

Give Scouts access to flamers.

Chapter Tactics Fixes:
1. Vehicles gain access to Chapter Tactics
2. If Black Templar Dreadnoughts lose an HP, they gain Rage and Counter-Attack for that turn.
3. Blood Angels get rolled into here. The Descent Of Angels is now part of the Chapter Tactic. Pt. 2 is The Red Thirst, which gives Preferred Enemy in melee
4. Dark Angels get rolled into here. Ravenwing, Deathwing, and Grim Resolve are the Chapter Tactics
FW Chapter Tactics Fixes:
1. Raptors CT still has Legendary Marksman. "Strike From The Shadows" functions as the current PDF describes.
2. In addition to what's already listed, Terminators with Star Phantoms CT gain the "Inertial Guidance" special rule that Drop Pods currently possess.
3. Fire Hawks Jump Pack units are now considered Objective Secured. On Wings Of Fire is still the same.
4. Mantis Warriors remove the "Bulky" clause from The Shadow Killers. Mantis Warrior Librarians also know the Divination Primaris inherently.
5. The Carcharodon rule, "Reavers Of Outer Darkness", forces Fear checks to be done on a 3D6. Models with ATSKNF are forced to take a regular Fear test, and Fearless models are forced to take a Fear test but rerolling the first failed one. Everything else is still the same.
6. Red Hunters may choose to use one of the following rules on any turn, but can't choose it again for the rest of the game: Counter Attack, Monster Hunter, Tank Hunter, Hatred, Skyfire, Interceptor, and Fearless. Everyone has Adamantium Will.
7. Executioners gain rerolls of 1 to hit (both range and melee) against units in cover or falling back
8. Astral Claws function as Dark Angels Chapter Tactics, as they already have similar points of interest

Weapon and Equipment Fixes:
1. Storm Bolters are S5; I'm sticking with my guns on this one
2. Heavy Bolters are now Salvo 2/4
3. Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers are part of the standard codex
4. Pistol variants and Combi-Weapons are now 5 points
5. Chainswords have rerolls of 1 to wound
6. Grav Weapons only strip HP rather than immobilizing the target as well
7. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless and is now 50 points
8. The Standard Of The Emperor Ascendant is now 50 points
9. Dark and Blood Angel Relics are to be tackled at a later point

HQ Fixes:
1. Khan is now 150 points without his Bike
2. Tigurius is now 175 points
3. Shrike is now 175 points
4. Helbrecht now has Orbital Bombardment
5. Azrael has Blind on his Combi-Plasma again, has Orbital Bombardment, and is now 230 points; I am unsure of actually moving him to the HQ slot
6. Belial is now 185 points
7. Asmodai loses Specialist Weapon on his Blades Of Reason, and to be honest I don't know what other fixes would be fitting for him at the moment; I'm open to suggestions
8. Astorath inflicts D3 additional wounds or rolling for penetration if he rolls a 6 to wound or penetrate
9. The Sanguinor's sword now has Rending
10. Tycho has Fleshbane on all his melee attacks
11. Gabriel Seth gets moved here, gains Orbital Bombardment, Artificer Armor, and has Rampage standard instead of it being his Warlord trait, and is now 175 points; his new Warlord trait is yet to be determined
12. Commander Dante has Orbital Bombardment and is now 225 points; his new Warlord trait has yet to be determined and I'm unsure of actually moving him to the HQ slot
13. Jump Pack HQ's can unlock Assault Marines as troops
FW HQ Fixes:
1. Anton Narvaez is now 150 points
2. Mordaci Blaylock gives all CT: Ultramarines Terminator variants Objective Secured.
3. Tarnus Vale has AP5 on his Chainsword, in addition to the earlier fix to Chainswords.
4. Titus has 4 attacks base and Armoured Ceramite and is now 215 points
5. Malakim has 4 attacks and Orbital Bombardment, along with the Glaive no longer being two-handed. Is now 190 points
6. Vaylund Cal has 4 Wounds and Attacks, Weapon Skill 6, and Initiative 5. Is now 250 points and is a Lord of War
7. Ashmantle has 4 attacks base, not including the extra Power Fist
8. Sevrin Loth is now 185 points
9. Lias is now 190 points
10. Tyberos has Eternal Warrior and is now 205 points
11. Androcles can nominate a unit within his line of sight, and lower their cover save by one, and this is cumulative with the Auspex. Is now 155 points
12. Courbray has a Hand Flamer, and his sword has +1 Strength
13. Alberec counts as having CT: Red Hunters now.

Troop Fixes:
1. Tactical Marines can buy another Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 10 man squads
2. In order to be Troops, Bikers must be at 5 man squads
3. Assault Marines have access to Melta Guns and have access to all the pistol variants

Elite Fixes:
1. Tactical Terminators have access to the Plasma Cannon now and can buy two Heavy Weapons at 5 men
2. Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws are 30 points now, and to upgrade to the TH/SS is 10 points
3. Dark Angels CT

Fast Attack Fixes:
1. None

Heavy Support Fixes:
1. All Land Raider variants are 200 points now
2. Devastator Centurions pay 35 points for their Grav Cannon and Amp
3. Whirlwinds are 60 points now

This is mostly my final draft, though it isn't very pretty. I still have yet to really do Chapter-specific units, but those are pretty easy I think (lowering Death Company weapon prices by a smidge, Deathwing Knights becoming 42 points, etc). In the meantime go ahead and review this, and I'll eventually either work on those or getting CSM the fix they should have.

For Chapter tactics and the likes it might be easier to state
all models in X detachment gain y unless otherwise stated.

that way you could shoe horn that into other armies like chaos legions, IG, various craft eldars and what not.

also would prefer the HH rites of war type things instead where its VERY restrictive for cool fluff bonuses.

weapons and equip:
#6 all the yes

would also like to increase points for shield eternal. its way too much of an auto take. same with the IH one.

Troop fix:

bikes should only ever be troops if the chapter specialists in them like RW and scars.

imho.

1. I think it is easier just to state everything has Chapter Tactics. When it comes to fixing CSM, I actually don't plan to give legion rules, as they're not as organized. Rather, I like the flexibility of the current codex but the gakky rules need work.
2. That's kinda how decurions work. I'm just trying to think of a third bonus outside the dumb free vehicles rule, but unsure where to go. In the meantime, I'm trying to do what I can for someone just taking a CAD or two (or three!).
3. Glad you agree with that minor fix to Grav weapons. Regarding TSE, it is an autotake because of the ID mechanic. If I were just paying 50 points for EW, I almost would do it every time. The Salamanders got that cool 30 point EW relocation as well. If you add on a Storm Shield (10-15 points), you're just paying a little for AW. That isn't worth increasing the price.
The Iron Hands one also has the balancing point of it becoming less effective.
4. Why is that? Not everyone follows their parent chapter and what they choose to do. There's an Ultramarine successor that uses Jump Packs a lot (think it's Doom Eagles). Sure they could go with either Blood Angels or Raven Guard for representation, but neither of those capture them well.

3. Eh i just really disagree with auto take items. not sure of the sally or iron hand ones but i basically ALWAYS see the shield eternal.
4. while it may be the case that some successor have specific specializations its something that could be added to with there own supplement or sub chapter tactics like FW ones.

That would require someone to go through all the successor chapters that are actually named, and then making sure they can represent them.

OR we just get the general idea for your favorite chapter or your created one. Doom Eagles are Ultramarine successors and don't differentiate from them much outside Jump Pack specialization. They won't be done justice by Blood Angels or Raven Guard OR Fire Hawks Chapter Tactics (though the latter comes close). So the best compromise for ALL our special snowflake chapters is to make sure the option for Jump and Biker troops is there. Seems reasonable to me. We can't give EVERYONE their own supplement, try as we might.

Regarding autotake items...I get it. However, TSE is actually priced appropriately incorporating the bundle of getting AW (and certain chapters get that, so they're paying for a redundant rule). Just because you see it all the time doesn't mean it is a bad thing, especially when priced accordingly.

The thing about it is that scoring is for the most part meaning less now.

it used to mater when only scoring units could capture.

the only thing this would do is allow people to just take more good things without having to bother with tactical tax.

it just lets people min max all day even if they are trying to play fluffy like full bike troops for WS

And I gave a small but important fix to Tactical Marines, so they're less of a tax: they can actually specialize somewhat to hurt specific targets.

1. Give Grav weapons the Gets Hot USR
2. Limit the number of psychic disciplines available chapter-wide to 3, selected during army construction
3. Make Venerable Dreadnoughts characters and attachable to units of other Dreadnoughts
4. Make Chainfists 10 pts and reroll wound against GMCs

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
OR we just get the general idea for your favorite chapter or your created one. Doom Eagles are Ultramarine successors and don't differentiate from them much outside Jump Pack specialization. They won't be done justice by Blood Angels or Raven Guard OR Fire Hawks Chapter Tactics (though the latter comes close). So the best compromise for ALL our special snowflake chapters is to make sure the option for Jump and Biker troops is there. Seems reasonable to me. We can't give EVERYONE their own supplement, try as we might.

Wouldn't the option for Demi-Companies of the different types work better for situations like this?

For example, in the case of Biker/Jump desired focuses:
Assault Demi-Company
Formation:
1 Captain or Chaplain
0-1 Command Squad
5 squads chosen of any combination from the following list:
- Assault Squad
- Bike Squad
- Centurion Assault Squad
Restrictions"
None.
Special Rules:
Outflank
Borne to Fight: If your army contains one or more Assault Demi-companies, you can choose to enact the Assault Doctrine once per game. When the Doctrine is enacted, all models in your army with the Chapter Tactics rule that are part of a Assault Demi-company are affected.
Kept in Reserve: Centurion Assault Squads may take Drop Pods as Dedicated Transports. All units from this Formation must arrive from Deep Strike Reserves or from Outflank. The owning player may choose to reroll the Reserves Roll for any unit in this Formation.
Part of the Chapter: This Formation may be taken as a Core Choice for the Gladius Strike Force, Scarblade Strike Force, Fist of Medusa Strike Force, or Talon Strike Force.

As a Raptors player, I think Lias issodons current price tag is fair. He is a great force multiplier with not much offensive punch bar his pregame trick. I run a tau buffmander in my Tau army who clocks in around the same points as lias and they seem comparable, expensive but great non psychic buffers who pay for their guaranteed abilities.

Lias has THE best Warlord trait stock, does the force multiplication thing VERY well, and actually doesn't do bad offensively. He deserved a slight increase in points, like it or not.