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Slayer-Fan123Made - check page 174 of the codex on demi companies. They only get Objective secure and Tactical Flexibility special rules - no free transports.

You only get free transports if you take a Gladius Strike Force (page 112) which is 2 Demi companies AND at least one Auxiliary formations.

Bharring wrote:
The only difference between IoM Flakk and CWE Flakk is that IoM Flakk isn't mandatory - you can choose to not pay for it. CWE also don't get it for free.


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(I do think Flakk should be 5ppm or free form IoM - and CWE doesn't need the correction. I just disagree with the argument presented.)

I'll have to dig out my Eldar codices when I get home, but I swear the EML didn't change in price (or got cheaper, in some cases) between 6e and 7e, and Flakk just got bolted on the side. However, I could *very* easily be wrong about this - I hardly ever run EMLs except on Dark Reaper Exarchs, so it's not one of those numbers I have committed to memory.

The broader point I was trying to make wasn't really related to whether Eldar MLs were properly costed or not - that's a separate bottle of bees - but rather that including Flakk missiles in IoM missile launchers for the same cost that they have now (so, "free", essentially) would make the missile launcher worth taking, since at 15 points, it's currently marginal, and at 25 points it's doubly so. Incidentally, I think EMLs generally suffer the same problem - being good at nothing in particular - even though plasma missiles are considerably better than frag missiles, and most platforms that can take one are Relentless. (For the points I'd usually rather have a brightlance or a starcannon, or a shuriken cannon for a lot cheaper)

I'll create a new post later tonight using some of the criticisms in this thread, as they made sense (why didn't I just say Vehicles get CT? Beats me). After that is finalized I can get around to fixing the FW CT and characters.

Alright, so here's how it looks so far. I'm definitely wanting to see how Martel feels about the fixes I gave Blood Angels (though to be fair they get better with just access to Vanilla toys).

Chapter Tactics Fixes:
1. Vehicles gain access to Chapter Tactics
2. If Black Templar Dreadnoughts lose an HP, they gain Rage and Counter-Attack for that turn.
3. Blood Angels get rolled into here. The Descent Of Angels is now part of the Chapter Tactic. Pt. 2 is The Red Thirst, which gives Preferred Enemy in melee. Special units are to be tackled another time
4. Dark Angels get rolled into here. Ravenwing, Deathwing, and Grim Resolve are the Chapter Tactics and special units are to be tackled another time

Weapon and Equipment Fixes:
1. Storm Bolters are S5; I'm sticking with my guns on this one
2. Heavy Bolters are now Salvo 2/4
3. Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers are part of the standard codex
4. Pistol variants and Combi-Weapons are now 5 points
5. Chainswords have rerolls of 1 to wound
6. Grav Weapons only strip HP rather than immobilizing the target as well
7. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless and is now 50 points
8. The Standard Of The Emperor Ascendant is now 50 points
9. Dark and Blood Angel Relics are to be tackled at a later point

HQ Fixes:
1. Khan is now 150 points without his Bike
2. Tigurius is now 175 points
3. Shrike is now 175 points
4. Helbrecht now has Orbital Bombardment
5. Azrael has Blind on his Combi-Plasma again, has Orbital Bombardment, and is now 230 points; I am unsure of actually moving him to the HQ slot
6. Belial is now 185 points
7. Asmodai loses Specialist Weapon on his Blades Of Reason, and to be honest I don't know what other fixes would be fitting for him at the moment; I'm open to suggestions
8. Astorath inflicts D3 additional wounds or rolling for penetration if he rolls a 6 to wound or penetrate
9. The Sanguinor's sword now has Rending
10. Tycho has Fleshbane on all his melee attacks
11. Gabriel Seth gets moved here, gains Orbital Bombardment, Artificer Armor, and has Rampage standard instead of it being his Warlord trait, and is now 175 points; his new Warlord trait is yet to be determined
12. Commander Dante has Orbital Bombardment and is now 225 points; his new Warlord trait has yet to be determined and I'm unsure of actually moving him to the HQ slot
13. Jump Pack HQ's can unlock Assault Marines as troops

Troop Fixes:
1. Tactical Marines can buy another Special Weapon at 10 man squads
2. In order to be Troops, Bikers must be at 5 man squads
3. Assault Marines have no access to Special Weapons and have access to all the pistol variants and now pay 2 points for their Jump Packs

Elite Fixes:
1. Tactical Terminators have access to the Plasma Cannon now and can buy two Heavy Weapons at 5 men
2. Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws are 30 points now, and to upgrade to the TH/SS is 10 points

Fast Attack Fixes:
1. None

Heavy Support Fixes:
1. All Land Raider variants are 200 points now
2. Devastator Centurions pay 35 points for their Grav Cannon and Amp
3. Whirlwinds are 60 points now

So the main reason that Blood Angels and Dark Angels needed to be incorporated was because of the fact they have several successor Chapters, and needed such toys (like generic Chapter Masters) to show that. Some people think that the Space Wolves need to be thrown into the Vanilla Codex, but they're different enough that I don't think it works.

Why take away assault marine special weapons?

Make priests elite again for the love of the Emprah.

Martel732 wrote:
Why take away assault marine special weapons?

Make priests elite again for the love of the Emprah.

The ASM nerf is pretty much the only one I disagree with, all other changes seem pretty reasonable. Granted, this pass of fixes was pretty light on DA, no nerfs on my sweet bikers (and you better not nerf them for the Lion's sake!),

Martel732 wrote:
Why take away assault marine special weapons?

Make priests elite again for the love of the Emprah.

It is to differentiate them from Tactical Marines and Biker Marines. Chainswords actually DO something with this fix and they're a single point cheaper (with Jump Packs). On top of that I fixed pistols. I thought it was a decent compromise.

I also said that faction-specific units would be tackled another time, but I agree with your point about Priests whole-heartedly. However, I wouldn't be sure on how to do stats or point costs. It'll happen eventually though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why take away assault marine special weapons?

Make priests elite again for the love of the Emprah.

It is to differentiate them from Tactical Marines and Biker Marines. Chainswords actually DO something with this fix and they're a single point cheaper (with Jump Packs). On top of that I fixed pistols. I thought it was a decent compromise.

I also said that faction-specific units would be tackled another time, but I agree with your point about Priests whole-heartedly. However, I wouldn't be sure on how to do stats or point costs. It'll happen eventually though.

Fair enough if you think pistols will be enough. It's not like two meltaguns are taking over the world anyway.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Chapter Tactics Fixes:
1. Vehicles gain access to Chapter Tactics
2. If Black Templar Dreadnoughts lose an HP, they gain Rage and Counter-Attack for that turn.

All Dreadnoughts have 4 Attacks base, so extending that particular Chapter Tactic to them may be a bit overpowered. Also, I don't think all vehicles need Chapter Tactics (not to mention most wouldn't properly benefit from them anyway).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
7. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless and is now 50 points

I think do one or the other, but not both.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HQ Fixes:
13. Jump Pack HQ's can unlock Assault Marines as troops

I don't think this should be a thing for all Chapters. Restrict it to Blood Angels or something.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Troop Fixes:
2. In order to be Troops, Bikers must be at 5 man squads

I still don't understand this and don't think this should be a thing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3. Assault Marines have no access to Special Weapons and have access to all the pistol variants and now pay 2 points for their Jump Packs

3 Points is absolutely fine for Jump Packs. As for no Special Weapons, they should still have access to Flamers.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Elite Fixes:
1. Tactical Terminators have access to the Plasma Cannon now and can buy two Heavy Weapons at 5 men

It should be two Heavy Weapons for a 10-Man Squad. Two for a 5-Man is a bit much.

 IllumiNini wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Chapter Tactics Fixes:
1. Vehicles gain access to Chapter Tactics
2. If Black Templar Dreadnoughts lose an HP, they gain Rage and Counter-Attack for that turn.

All Dreadnoughts have 4 Attacks base, so extending that particular Chapter Tactic to them may be a bit overpowered. Also, I don't think all vehicles need Chapter Tactics (not to mention most wouldn't properly benefit from them anyway).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
7. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless and is now 50 points

I think do one or the other, but not both.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HQ Fixes:
13. Jump Pack HQ's can unlock Assault Marines as troops

I don't think this should be a thing for all Chapters. Restrict it to Blood Angels or something.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Troop Fixes:
2. In order to be Troops, Bikers must be at 5 man squads

I still don't understand this and don't think this should be a thing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3. Assault Marines have no access to Special Weapons and have access to all the pistol variants and now pay 2 points for their Jump Packs

3 Points is absolutely fine for Jump Packs. As for no Special Weapons, they should still have access to Flamers.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Elite Fixes:
1. Tactical Terminators have access to the Plasma Cannon now and can buy two Heavy Weapons at 5 men

It should be two Heavy Weapons for a 10-Man Squad. Two for a 5-Man is a bit much.

1. A Dreadnought getting 6 attacks on the charge is most certainly not overpowered. Have you ever seen ANYONE complain that Carcharodon Astra Dreadnoughts can get Rage? Chances say no. There's also very few Chapter Tactics that vehicles don't gain any benefit. Red Scorpions Dreadnoughts and Raven Guard Dreadnoughts get Chapter Tactics yet have no benefits.
2. Why not both? Relentless doesn't come into play that often (the Bolter part of Combi-Weapons, The Primarch's Wrath, other Relic range weapons) and, otherwise, you're paying 30 points for a 6++ (which only happens for PA Librarians) and the once-per-game 2++. Can you give a single good reason NOT to do both, other than you're uncomfortable with it?
3. Why not? Not all successor Chapters are entirely like their parents. It isn't specific when you buy a Bike for your HQ and all the sudden Bikers are Troops, either.
4. It is to stop extreme MSU Special Weapon spam.
5. 3 points is fine, but I think 16 point Assault Marines as troops is worth play-testing. I also feel that, with the other fixes I made, having access to any Special Weapons differentiates them enough from Bikers and Tacticals.
6. Why is two Heavy Weapons for 5 dudes a bit much? You have to be more reasonable than "I'm not comfortable with the idea". If it breaks the game, actually say HOW.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. A Dreadnought getting 6 attacks on the charge is most certainly not overpowered. Have you ever seen ANYONE complain that Carcharodon Astra Dreadnoughts can get Rage? Chances say no. There's also very few Chapter Tactics that vehicles don't gain any benefit. Red Scorpions Dreadnoughts and Raven Guard Dreadnoughts get Chapter Tactics yet have no benefits.

Fair enough about the chapter Tactics affecting vehicles, but I stand by my words on the Dreadnoughts for Black Templars. I've heard a number of people say that 4 Attacks base on a Dreadnought is strong to the point of arguably being OP (whether it is actually OP has varied slightly between people). Also consider a regular Dreadnought with a Power Fist that has 4 Attacks base: That's 4x S10 AP2 hits at I4. That is undeniably really powerful. Boosting the number of attacks it gets (whether its additions attacks in scenarios it would otherwise never get like with Counter Attack, or additional attacks in general) may not be the best way to go about buffing the attacks.

I have a different suggestion: Make an addition to Black Templar Chapter Tactics that can make melee-orientated Dreadnoughts (of all types) more survivable so they can get their existing attacks off in the first place.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2. Why not both? Relentless doesn't come into play that often (the Bolter part of Combi-Weapons, The Primarch's Wrath, other Relic range weapons) and, otherwise, you're paying 30 points for a 6++ (which only happens for PA Librarians) and the once-per-game 2++. Can you give a single good reason NOT to do both, other than you're uncomfortable with it?

I simply disagree with your reasoning. I can see the merit for it to be worth 50 points as is without adding Relentless and agree with this points change. However, if you add Relentless in, I think that 50 points is too cheap. 55 points is probably the lowest I'd price it with Relentless chucked in.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3. Why not? Not all successor Chapters are entirely like their parents. It isn't specific when you buy a Bike for your HQ and all the sudden Bikers are Troops, either.

Because there's no need for this rule, and nor does it fix a problem. The only reason I see to implement it is to add flavour to a Chapter and/or its Successor Chapters. I don't disagree with the change per se, but making Assault Squads to be Troops Choices doesn't really fit in fluff-wise.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
6. Why is two Heavy Weapons for 5 dudes a bit much? You have to be more reasonable than "I'm not comfortable with the idea". If it breaks the game, actually say HOW.

For the same reason I think the current iteration of Assault Squads found in the codex should have further restriction on Flamers. An Assault Squad can have up to 2x Flamers, so if you want to spam flamers, you just take 5-Man Squads with 2x Flamers each. This is a little powerful against infantry if you ask me.

The same logic applies to 2x Heavy Weapons for 5-Man Terminator Squads. It would be too easy to spam Heavy Weapons that get to Deep Strike behind your opponent's army and rip them a new one.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
4. It is to stop extreme MSU Special Weapon spam.

I don't think that anyone would complain if Marines would stick to spamming weapons that can be taken by Assault Squads. If ASMs had access to Grav weapons I'd understand this concern well but if spamming flamers and meltas is broken, Sisters are one of the most abusive armies in the game. Short-ranged assault weapons should be used by squads that are designed to get close to use them.

So below I've relisted your list with everything highlighted a few things:

-- Red are things that should be removed;
-- Green are the things that I've changed.
-- Yellow need to be re-worded for clarity.
-- Blue Need some reasoning since they don't appear to address any particular issue and/or explanation is needed as to how exactly it fixes the issue(s).

Regarding the original post:
Chapter Tactics fixes
Agreed on all points. And as Tradio said, just give Chapter Tactics to all vehicles.

Weapon and equipment fixes
1. Storm Bolters are now S5
No. They are bolters. Not heavy bolters. They should be modeled as such in the rules. They're not more powerful, they just fire more often. Combi bolters are two bolters strapped together. They work as twin linked. Storm bolters are supposed to be a minor improvement on that, hence whenever the topic of storm bolters comes up, I suggest they should be double rapid fire. Acting literally as two bolters for the price of one. 2 shots at 24". 4 shots at 12". This has the added benefit of making power armoured marines unable to charge after firing a weapon which is bigger than a bolter.
2. Heavy Bolters are Heavy 4
agreed.
3. Chainswords get rerolls of 1 to wound
I was thinking of giving them shred.
4. Combi-Weapons now cost 5 points
Until I started actually using them I would have agreed with you. I've been using them a lot and 10 points feels about right. Any cheaper and I'd be looking to put them everywhere. They're on that lovely 'good but not so cheap that I want to spam them' line.
5. Pistol variants now cost 5 points
No, I agree with those saying 10 points is appropriate. Unlike combi weapons they can be used every turn. Even with the short range and single shot AP2 is worth the cost. We don't need more things in the game that make 2+ saves redundant.
6. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless again and is 50 points
I play Dark Angels, so I have no idea what this is and cannot comment.
7. That relic banner thing is only 50 points
I play Dark Angels, so I have no idea what this is and cannot comment. I want my 3 sacred standards split back out again, though I'm fine with looking for a different solution to the Standard of Devastation. Salvo 2/4 was clunky.

HQ fixes
I play Dark Angels, so I have no idea what this is and cannot comment. If Helbrecht gets Orbital Bombardment, can Azrael and Dante have it too?

Troop fixes
1. Tactical Marines get to take another Special Weapon at 10 man squads
No. I don't know what heretical marines you've been talking to but around here we follow the Codex Astartes as laid out by Roboute Guilliman. There is no reason why Tactical Marines should change their loadout now after 30 years of it being the same. It's the fluff. Embrace it. If you change this you may as well just say they can have whatever weapons you want because you're deliberately breaking away from the background. Once it's broken there's no point pretending to adhere to it at all.
2. Bikers are always at a minimum of 5 men in a squad and are 22 points a dude now
Agreed on the minimum, especially for 'troops' as discussed later in the thread. My preference would be to remove the 'bikes as troops' crud entirely. Then they can stay as a minimum squad size of 3. They should probably need to take extra bikes before getting the second special weapon too. Can't comment on the price. Mine are 25 points. I don't know if 22 is an increase or a decrease.

Elite fixes
1. Tactical Terminators can take two Heavy Weapons at 5 men
I'm okay with this.
2. Lightning Claw Terminators are 30 points, and taking a TH/SS stays the same
This presumably makes Deathwing 35 points. I'm okay with that so long as I get the old Deathwing Assault (choose to deep strike turn 1 or 2) back.

Fast Attack fixes
1. None! Assault Marines become mildly better because of a minor fix to Chainswords
Related to your wish for 2 special weapons on tactical squads, Assault squads should not be able to take the 2nd special weapon until they have 10 models. I'd argue that they should be able to have power weapons too (probably instead of taking the PP/flamer) but at least we get eviscerators now. I'll make do with those.

Heavy Support fixes
1. Whirlwinds are 60 a piece
Seems like an unnecessary points reduction to me. Their problem has more to do with 'everyone' playing elite armies than any statline or cost issues. Just needs to be more horde armies in the meta. I could see an argument for them gaining longer range though.
2. Centurions pay the full 35 points for their Grav Cannons, because them getting a 10 point discount was stupid
They're not in my codex, so can't give a great answer but from what I've read on the 'net, I have to say Grav itself needs changing, not the centurions. In fact, Salvo should be unaffected by Relentless. The combination of Salvo and Relentless seems to be the cause of many problems to do with Grav. An alternative would be to retain Salvo and AP2, but change it to wound vs Strength instead of vs Armour Save. Also remove the initial hull damage. Just let it immobilize, then do 1 point of hull damage to an already immobilized vehicle.
Oh, and the Battle Demi-Company doesn't give free transports of any kind.
AGREED. No free stuff for anyone.

Ugh.... Loyalists have no idea how good they have it.

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
Ugh.... Loyalists have no idea how good they have it.

Good to know you're contributing to this. Needless to say that nobody is arguing that Chaos (and a couple of other races) need a serious buff.

On topic: @Zustiur is speaking some sense.

"No. I don't know what heretical marines you've been talking to but around here we follow the Codex Astartes as laid out by Roboute Guilliman. There is no reason why Tactical Marines should change their loadout now after 30 years of it being the same. It's the fluff. Embrace it. If you change this you may as well just say they can have whatever weapons you want because you're deliberately breaking away from the background. Once it's broken there's no point pretending to adhere to it at all. "

The codex doesn't work in practice. Feth the fluff. Go with what works. Imperial heavy weapons are garbage and don't synergize with boltguns.


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 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
Ugh.... Loyalists have no idea how good they have it.

I wouldn't call a few cookie cutter builds based off specific formations "good". Because that's what separates loyalists from BA/CSM.

 IllumiNini wrote:

On topic: @Zustiur is speaking some sense.

Thanks. I've now actually had time to catch up with the rest of the thread. I see most of my points still needed saying as Slayer-Fan123 is reluctant to see things from the different viewpoints already supplied.

Let me just add a few points in response to the more recent list of changes:
Storm Bolters are Bolters. They use the exact same shells as Bolters. Stop ignoring the fluff. They're S4 because they are Bolters. They fire faster than bolters, they do not fire more powerful shots.
I'm unsure on the fluff for Inferno Pistols. Does anyone outside of Blood Angels actually know how to make them?
There is no way that Assault Marines should ever be troops. If 3 Fast Attack slots isn't enough for you, make an Assault Company formation. Shifting things to troops is the pre-7th edition mindset and the ability to do it with bikes should have already been removed.
I just checked back to my 2nd ed books. Assault Squads had the option for 2 special weapons back then. I therefore support the possibility of adding meltaguns, but do not support removing special weapons altogether. Adding plasma and grav would feel wrong to me based on not being 'assault' weapons.
Agreed that land raiders need to be cheaper. Unsure if they should all be the same value though. Starting with 200 and then adjusting after testing is a fair stance.

Stormbolters are useless in the current game. Nowhere does the fluff say they are useless.

200 is still too much for the land raider in 7th ed. I honestly wouldn't even pay 175 for it at this point.

Zustiur wrote:Storm Bolters are Bolters. They use the exact same shells as Bolters. Stop ignoring the fluff. They're S4 because they are Bolters. They fire faster than bolters, they do not fire more powerful shots.

Judging from the previous comments in the thread, I doubt that any amount of commenting by any amount of users is going to convince Slayer that they're wrong on this.

Zustiur wrote:I'm unsure on the fluff for Inferno Pistols. Does anyone outside of Blood Angels actually know how to make them?

I honestly don't think this matters. Not that your point is invalid or not worth mentioning or anything like that, but it's more a case of introducing them to the vanilla codex doesn't fulfill any need or fix any issue.

Zustiur wrote:There is no way that Assault Marines should ever be troops. If 3 Fast Attack slots isn't enough for you, make an Assault Company formation. Shifting things to troops is the pre-7th edition mindset and the ability to do it with bikes should have already been removed.

This! 100% this!

Zustiur wrote:I just checked back to my 2nd ed books. Assault Squads had the option for 2 special weapons back then. I therefore support the possibility of adding meltaguns, but do not support removing special weapons altogether. Adding plasma and grav would feel wrong to me based on not being 'assault' weapons.

This is why I understand the inclusion of Flamers in the current codex, but admittedly: it could be expanded upon. Also, I stand by my limitations on Flamers in a previous post of mine.

Martel732 wrote:Stormbolters are useless in the current game. Nowhere does the fluff say they are useless.

200 is still too much for the land raider in 7th ed. I honestly wouldn't even pay 175 for it at this point.

I reckon a compromise of sorts should be made where Land Raiders of all types should now be 200 Points, but have a few additional rules such as Move Through Cover.

At the risk of sounding rude, Dreadnoughts gaining CT: BT is just not even conceivably OP. I don't even know where to start explaining why, because I didn't think anyone would ever make the argument.

FYI Dreadnoughts have chapter tactics and it means approximately nothing. Even in gladius when they can effectively have 2 chapter tactics working at once...doctrine from demi company and iron hands IWND and a free drop pod...they are still not worth their points.

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
Ugh.... Loyalists have no idea how good they have it.

You fix one codex at a time, not a bunch of them at once.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
Ugh.... Loyalists have no idea how good they have it.

You fix one codex at a time, not a bunch of them at once.

You really should look at them all as a whole otherwise it has the same problems external balance issues.
chaos space marines and marines are similar and should be relatively close. at least similar units.

 IllumiNini wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. A Dreadnought getting 6 attacks on the charge is most certainly not overpowered. Have you ever seen ANYONE complain that Carcharodon Astra Dreadnoughts can get Rage? Chances say no. There's also very few Chapter Tactics that vehicles don't gain any benefit. Red Scorpions Dreadnoughts and Raven Guard Dreadnoughts get Chapter Tactics yet have no benefits.

Fair enough about the chapter Tactics affecting vehicles, but I stand by my words on the Dreadnoughts for Black Templars. I've heard a number of people say that 4 Attacks base on a Dreadnought is strong to the point of arguably being OP (whether it is actually OP has varied slightly between people). Also consider a regular Dreadnought with a Power Fist that has 4 Attacks base: That's 4x S10 AP2 hits at I4. That is undeniably really powerful. Boosting the number of attacks it gets (whether its additions attacks in scenarios it would otherwise never get like with Counter Attack, or additional attacks in general) may not be the best way to go about buffing the attacks.

I have a different suggestion: Make an addition to Black Templar Chapter Tactics that can make melee-orientated Dreadnoughts (of all types) more survivable so they can get their existing attacks off in the first place.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2. Why not both? Relentless doesn't come into play that often (the Bolter part of Combi-Weapons, The Primarch's Wrath, other Relic range weapons) and, otherwise, you're paying 30 points for a 6++ (which only happens for PA Librarians) and the once-per-game 2++. Can you give a single good reason NOT to do both, other than you're uncomfortable with it?

I simply disagree with your reasoning. I can see the merit for it to be worth 50 points as is without adding Relentless and agree with this points change. However, if you add Relentless in, I think that 50 points is too cheap. 55 points is probably the lowest I'd price it with Relentless chucked in.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3. Why not? Not all successor Chapters are entirely like their parents. It isn't specific when you buy a Bike for your HQ and all the sudden Bikers are Troops, either.

Because there's no need for this rule, and nor does it fix a problem. The only reason I see to implement it is to add flavour to a Chapter and/or its Successor Chapters. I don't disagree with the change per se, but making Assault Squads to be Troops Choices doesn't really fit in fluff-wise.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
6. Why is two Heavy Weapons for 5 dudes a bit much? You have to be more reasonable than "I'm not comfortable with the idea". If it breaks the game, actually say HOW.

For the same reason I think the current iteration of Assault Squads found in the codex should have further restriction on Flamers. An Assault Squad can have up to 2x Flamers, so if you want to spam flamers, you just take 5-Man Squads with 2x Flamers each. This is a little powerful against infantry if you ask me.

The same logic applies to 2x Heavy Weapons for 5-Man Terminator Squads. It would be too easy to spam Heavy Weapons that get to Deep Strike behind your opponent's army and rip them a new one.

1. You've also proven you don't live in a competitive area based off that statement. NOBODY thinks Dreadnoughts getting the 4 attacks base was OP, and in fact it was a necessary change to make them even mediocre in combat if you wanted a melee Dreadnought. As you can see in competitive lists, it still doesn't happen. You also hadn't tackled the part where I said that Carcharodon Astra Dreadnoughts can get Rage as well in specific conditions. They aren't OP, are they?
2. 50 is too cheap? 30-40 gets you Terminator Armor with a Power Weapon and Storm Bolter. You pay for extra suriviability for a turn at that point, and that isn't even close to worth the points. In the previous codex, would you have said The Armor Indominitus was worth 60? Probably not. It wasn't worth 55 either. That is yet what you propose though.
3. Making Bikers a Troop choice makes little sense with Raven Guard, but they can do it in the parent codex. It also absolutely fixes a problem: Assault Marines should be good at capturing objectives. Some people like them more than Tactical Marines or Biker Marines. They weren't OP for Blood Angels to originally use as Troops, and they were only used because they got Special Weapons easier than Tactical Marines. You know, the ones that SHOULD be shooting.
4. Too easy to spam Heavy Weapons? I can get two Stormtalons with two TL Assault Cannons and Skyhammers for 230 points. A Tactical Terminator Squad with two Assault Cannons at 215 points would make it too easy to spam Heavy Weapons after having that info?
Also Assault Marines aren't too powerful with two Flamers. I simply want to remove it so that I can define them a specific role. That's why cheap pistols and a minor buff to the Chainsword make sense.


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 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
Ugh.... Loyalists have no idea how good they have it.

You fix one codex at a time, not a bunch of them at once.

You really should look at them all as a whole otherwise it has the same problems external balance issues.
chaos space marines and marines are similar and should be relatively close. at least similar units.

You do realize that the undertaking to actually balance that garbage known as the Chaos Space Marine codex is a pretty monolithic task, right?
If you actually like the attempts I'm doing here to create a better internal balance for Codex: Loyalist Scum, I'll gladly post my ideas for fixes for CSM.


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Zustiur wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

On topic: @Zustiur is speaking some sense.

Thanks. I've now actually had time to catch up with the rest of the thread. I see most of my points still needed saying as Slayer-Fan123 is reluctant to see things from the different viewpoints already supplied.

Let me just add a few points in response to the more recent list of changes:
Storm Bolters are Bolters. They use the exact same shells as Bolters. Stop ignoring the fluff. They're S4 because they are Bolters. They fire faster than bolters, they do not fire more powerful shots.
I'm unsure on the fluff for Inferno Pistols. Does anyone outside of Blood Angels actually know how to make them?
There is no way that Assault Marines should ever be troops. If 3 Fast Attack slots isn't enough for you, make an Assault Company formation. Shifting things to troops is the pre-7th edition mindset and the ability to do it with bikes should have already been removed.
I just checked back to my 2nd ed books. Assault Squads had the option for 2 special weapons back then. I therefore support the possibility of adding meltaguns, but do not support removing special weapons altogether. Adding plasma and grav would feel wrong to me based on not being 'assault' weapons.
Agreed that land raiders need to be cheaper. Unsure if they should all be the same value though. Starting with 200 and then adjusting after testing is a fair stance.

1. And adding another shot just means I'm still getting more Bolter shots with Tactical Marines and that Storm Bolters still have ZERO synergy with the weapons of Terminators. You can use fluff as a justification for your feelings, but if we REALLY wanted to go down that slippery slope, Marines would have like 3 wounds each and everyone would have a shooting penalty against Eldar units.
2. Unsure of Inferno Pistols, but Hand Flamers are definitely common among other Chapters (Fire Hawks can get them, after all) and both needed to not be 15 points anyway.
3. Except shifting Bikes can still happen. They were also Troops for Blood Angels and nobody cared except that they got more Special Weapons for the price compared to Tacticals, the unit that should be shooting. THAT is something that shouldn't have happened.
4. I will rethink removing Flamers, but if they get Melta Guns too you'd have no reason to use Tactical Marines. Again.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Alright, so here's how it looks so far. I'm definitely wanting to see how Martel feels about the fixes I gave Blood Angels (though to be fair they get better with just access to Vanilla toys).

Chapter Tactics Fixes:
3. Blood Angels get rolled into here. The Descent Of Angels is now part of the Chapter Tactic. Pt. 2 is The Red Thirst, which gives Preferred Enemy in melee. Special units are to be tackled another time
4. Dark Angels get rolled into here. Ravenwing, Deathwing, and Grim Resolve are the Chapter Tactics and special units are to be tackled another time


Troop Fixes:
2. In order to be Troops, Bikers must be at 5 man squads
3. Assault Marines have no access to Special Weapons and have access to all the pistol variants and now pay 2 points for their Jump Packs

Elite Fixes:
1. Tactical Terminators have access to the Plasma Cannon now and can buy two Heavy Weapons at 5 men

Most of the Blood Angel and Dark Angle units could be added fairly easily as standard units.

Allow Honour Guard and Command squads to match their commander - eg Captain has a Jump Pack, his command squad can, You take Calgar, he can have a terminator honour guard. (BA Honour Guard and DA Terminator command done). Sanguinary Guard could easily be added into the honour guard option and Raven wing would just need an upgrade to Plasma Talons option on the current command squad.

Black Knights - Allow Venguard to upgrade to bikes with Plasma talons

Baal Predator Weapon options (only) added to the standard predator - Baal engines become a BA only upgrade as part of chapter tactics. Other Lines could also gain something like this eg Raven Guard cloaked Storm Ravens etc.

The DA heavy Landspeeders can slot in as they are, just reword what the Darkshroud does (eg holy relic)

Furioso Dreadnoughts get merged with Ironclades with an upgrade option to Venerable Ironclades. Add Librarian Dreadnought as a HQ

That leaves Death Company & Dreadnought and Deathwing Knights as special units, just like Cruasder squads. The only units I can't see a fit for are the DA flyers now that the new Stormhawk is coming.


I'd leave Flamers (add Meltaguns) in assault squads as they are assault weapons (no grav or plasma) but make them a 1 in 5 men option and have them up against the pistols.

I'd also rather see bikes stopped as a Troop choice and no Assault troops as there are plenty of formations now that can cover that.

2 Heavy Weapons in a 5 man terminator squad makes them devastators, so if you put that option in a Heavy support slot fine, otherwise the 1 in 5 option should stay just like most of the other units (bikes should be 1 in 3/4 due to Attack bikes)

Final point. Almost every chapter is meant to have a Chief Librarian - this set up still prevents 5 of the 9 Legions bloodlines having one (BA, DA, SW & UM only) - they either need a 0-1 upgrade on the librarian for this OR add a chief Librarian option which can be upgrade to one of the 3 named ones who are in the books you'd merge. It's just like BA and DA needed an option for a Chapter master.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You do realize that the undertaking to actually balance that garbage known as the Chaos Space Marine codex is a pretty monolithic task, right?
If you actually like the attempts I'm doing here to create a better internal balance for Codex: Loyalist Scum, I'll gladly post my ideas for fixes for CSM.

Was it ever going to be an easy task?

ScarVet101 wrote:
Final point. Almost every chapter is meant to have a Chief Librarian - this set up still prevents 5 of the 9 Legions bloodlines having one (BA, DA, SW & UM only) - they either need a 0-1 upgrade on the librarian for this OR add a chief Librarian option which can be upgrade to one of the 3 named ones who are in the books you'd merge. It's just like BA and DA needed an option for a Chapter master.

Angels of Death has relics that basically allow you to create the Chief Librarians for Iron Hands (Mindforge Stave), White Scars (Mantle of the Stormseer), Imperial Fists (Bones of Osrak) and Salamanders (Tome of Velcona). Stormseer and Velcona give you an extra power and Osrak gives you an extra WC, so they're pseudo ML3 even though they're not cool enough to get true ML3 like the named characters.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. You've also proven you don't live in a competitive area based off that statement. NOBODY thinks Dreadnoughts getting the 4 attacks base was OP, and in fact it was a necessary change to make them even mediocre in combat if you wanted a melee Dreadnought. As you can see in competitive lists, it still doesn't happen. You also hadn't tackled the part where I said that Carcharodon Astra Dreadnoughts can get Rage as well in specific conditions. They aren't OP, are they?

Can you please stop talking about me not living in a competitive area like it's a valid reason to essentially ignore what I'm telling you? The competitive side of the game isn't the only side of this game. You're suggesting a change and I'm simply offering up my opinions and things I know to be fact on the matter based on my experiences. I think it's foolish of you to ignore other people's experiences simply because a given person doesn't play competitively.

As for Carcharodon Astra Dreadnoughts, I'm unfamiliar with them, so I can't comment.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2. 50 is too cheap? 30-40 gets you Terminator Armor with a Power Weapon and Storm Bolter. You pay for extra suriviability for a turn at that point, and that isn't even close to worth the points. In the previous codex, would you have said The Armor Indominitus was worth 60? Probably not. It wasn't worth 55 either. That is yet what you propose though.

This is very quickly shaping up to be a case of us having to agree to disagree. I personally think 50 Points is too cheap, especially with extra rules added in. You disagree? That's OK. Just as long as you can reasonably justify the change (which to some extent I think you can).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3. Making Bikers a Troop choice makes little sense with Raven Guard, but they can do it in the parent codex. It also absolutely fixes a problem: Assault Marines should be good at capturing objectives. Some people like them more than Tactical Marines or Biker Marines. They weren't OP for Blood Angels to originally use as Troops, and they were only used because they got Special Weapons easier than Tactical Marines. You know, the ones that SHOULD be shooting.

Fair enough. I simply see no need at all for Bikers of any type to be Troops Choices, and I don't think Assault Marine Squads should be Troops Choices outside of Blood Angels. I see no fluff reason to do anything else, and Bikers/Assault Marines being a Troops Choice doesn't seem to fix any issue.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
4. Too easy to spam Heavy Weapons? I can get two Stormtalons with two TL Assault Cannons and Skyhammers for 230 points. A Tactical Terminator Squad with two Assault Cannons at 215 points would make it too easy to spam Heavy Weapons after having that info?

I stand by my words.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also Assault Marines aren't too powerful with two Flamers. I simply want to remove it so that I can define them a specific role. That's why cheap pistols and a minor buff to the Chainsword make sense.

All I meant with the Flamers thing was that they are on the powerful side because of their ability to spam Flamers in 5-Man Squads. I didn't say they were too powerful.

We're discounting your opinion on the Dreadnoughts because it makes no sense. How is getting one extra attack if you take Hull Point damage from Overwatch going to break the game? The Dreadnought will get less hits in than three MANz on the charge (S10 vs S9, but half the hits) if you take Hull Point damage during Overwatch. It's such a non-issue that, as you've noticed, we're having trouble taking you seriously.

On Terminators, they had 2 heavies per 5 in 4th and didn't break the game then, despite being a relatively more powerful unit than now due to less power creep having happened. They're the worst unit in C:SM, 2 heavies per 5 is a start.