Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here's some actual fixes.

Chapter Tactics fixes
1. Black Templars get Rending in challenges again, because it is stupid they removed it..
2. Clarification that Iron Hands vehicles get IWND. All of them.
3. Salamanders vehicles get bonuses to their flame weapons, because it is stupid they don't.
4. Imperial Fists get clarification that their vehicles get rerolls to hit with Bolter weapons, because they're being used by Imperial Fist Space Marines and it is stupid that hey don't.

Weapon and equipment fixes
1. Storm Bolters are now S5
2. Heavy Bolters are Heavy 4
3. Chainswords get rerolls of 1 to wound
4. Combi-Weapons now cost 5 points
5. Pistol variants now cost 5 points
6. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless again and is 50 points
7. That relic banner thing is only 50 points

HQ fixes
1. Khan is now 150
2. Tigurius is now 175
3. Shrike is now 175 points
4. PRETTY sure Helbrecht doesn't have Orbital Bombardment. He now has that

Troop fixes
1. Tactical Marines get to take another Special Weapon at 10 man squads
2. Bikers are always at a minimum of 5 men in a squad and are 22 points a dude now

Elite fixes
1. Tactical Terminators can take two Heavy Weapons at 5 men
2. Lightning Claw Terminators are 30 points, and taking a TH/SS stays the same

Fast Attack fixes
1. None! Assault Marines become mildly better because of a minor fix to Chainswords

Heavy Support fixes
1. Whirlwinds are 60 a piece
2. Centurions pay the full 35 points for their Grav Cannons, because them getting a 10 point discount was stupid

Oh, and the Battle Demi-Company doesn't give free transports of any kind.

Now you just slowly add Dark Angels and Blood Angels. Done.

What about Shrikes weird infiltrate ability? Is that still broken in 7th?

I like everything except the Biker squad limitations. Feels unnecessary to buy 2 boxes of something to field it.

I like a lot of these fixes. Could we allow 6 man bike squads but at 24 ppm since bike boxes come with 3?

Well, I was tempted to say that 5 point pistols are too cheap, but on second thought, no, probably not. The most abusive thing you could do with that is dual-grav-pistol vanguard vets, and that's not broken. Strong if expensive, but not broken.

For heavy bolters, maybe Salvo 2/4 instead of Heavy 4?

Ideally something needs to be done about Grav killing vehicles too well. Codex Marines live and die by the efficiency of Grav weapons.

Mostly ok but why Str 5 Stormbolters? They're only still only use bolter ammo.

Terminators - not so sure on the 2 HW for 5 men but giving them special ammo does seem to be fairly accepted on here. since Overkill showed alternative ammo options for this stuff.

Bikes - keep the min size as 3 but tweak the requirements for upgrades, eg no attack bike unless you have the full 8 standard bikers.

Assault marines - let them take meltaguns (an assault weapon).

Not so sure on the chainblades. Fluff wise that works but then but the same margin terminator armour should get +1 Str standard as it's meant to boost a marines strength significantly more then power armour.

Tigurius, Telion & Chronus and lose Ultramarine chapter tactics and replace it with the standard "chapter tactics" - either that or add a tank commander, chief Librarian (upgrade) and Scout character (replace with scout armour & infiltrate) options for non Ultramarines.

Slight side note - battle companies don't get free transports - Gladius Strikeforces do. Possible replace the free rhinos rule with something more in line with the new Angles of death formations though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:1. Black Templars get Rending in challenges again, because it is stupid they removed it..
2. Clarification that Iron Hands vehicles get IWND. All of them.
3. Salamanders vehicles get bonuses to their flame weapons, because it is stupid they don't.
4. Imperial Fists get clarification that their vehicles get rerolls to hit with Bolter weapons, because they're being used by Imperial Fist Space Marines and it is stupid that hey don't.

2-4 can be simplified into a single rule: "All SM vehicles now have the chapter tactics special rule."

Weapon and equipment fixes
1. Storm Bolters are now S5

Heavy bolters and stormbolters now have the same strength? Do they fire the same sized bullets?

5. Pistol variants now cost 5 points

5 points or 5 points less?

6. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless again and is 50 points

Why? It's not terminator armor. It does need a price reduction, though. Replacing power armor with terminator armor is much less expensive than the armor indomitus.

7. That relic banner thing is only 50 points

I'm inclined to agree with this. Fear is practically useless, and Pedro gets the effects of that banner, plus other stuff, for a lot cheaper.

HQ fixes
1. Khan is now 150
2. Tigurius is now 175
3. Shrike is now 175 points
4. PRETTY sure Helbrecht doesn't have Orbital Bombardment. He now has that

1. Only chapter masters should get orbital bombardment. Helbrecht is not a chapter master. He is a "high marshal," whatever that is. That's what you get for not rigidly following the Codex Astartes.

2. Captain + jump pack = 105 points. A lightning claw is only 15 ppm. I'm at 135. Imho, even taking into account his special rules, Shryke still hideously overcosted at 175.

2. Lightning Claw Terminators are 30 points

30 ppm for a model in terminator armor? Why?

Heavy Support fixes
1. Whirlwinds are 60 a piece

Why does a model which fires barrage large blasts at 72 inches need a price reduction?

2. Centurions pay the full 35 points for their Grav Cannons, because them getting a 10 point discount was stupid

It replaces a twin-linked heavy bolter. 35 (the cost of the cannon) - 10 (the cost of a heavy bolter) = 25.

Oh, and the Battle Demi-Company doesn't give free transports of any kind.

Why not?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ScarVet101 wrote:Slight side note - battle companies don't get free transports - Gladius Strikeforces do.

False. To get free transports, you have to take 2 demicompanies. A demicompany is a captain or chaplain, 3 tactical marines squads, a devastator squad (or equivalent) and an assault marine squad (or equivalent).

Those 2 demicompanies together make a battle company, assuming one demicompany has a captain, and the other a chaplain. To get the free transports, you have to take a battle company + an auxillary formation. And then the free transports only apply to the units in the demicompanies.

Possible replace the free rhinos rule with something more in line with the new Angles of death formations though.

I'm fine with free rhinos.

ScarVet101 wrote:
Mostly ok but why Str 5 Stormbolters? They're only still only use bolter ammo.

Terminators - not so sure on the 2 HW for 5 men but giving them special ammo does seem to be fairly accepted on here. since Overkill showed alternative ammo options for this stuff.

Bikes - keep the min size as 3 but tweak the requirements for upgrades, eg no attack bike unless you have the full 8 standard bikers.

Assault marines - let them take meltaguns (an assault weapon).

Not so sure on the chainblades. Fluff wise that works but then but the same margin terminator armour should get +1 Str standard as it's meant to boost a marines strength significantly more then power armour.

Tigurius, Telion & Chronus and lose Ultramarine chapter tactics and replace it with the standard "chapter tactics" - either that or add a tank commander, chief Librarian (upgrade) and Scout character (replace with scout armour & infiltrate) options for non Ultramarines.

Slight side note - battle companies don't get free transports - Gladius Strikeforces do. Possible replace the free rhinos rule with something more in line with the new Angles of death formations though.

Eh lets not hand out um characters to everyone else. i know some space marines really want it but i rather not homogenize all of them any more than they are now.
Not sure of all the standard equipment changes like the storm bolter and heavy bolter.
Grav weapons need to change badly. i dont mind the based on armor save thing but it really shouldnt be AP2. its a complicated weapon that should have some sort of down side.
some formations are ok but the drop pod one needs to be tone downed hard. if anything there should be a cap for formations in any army.
some ideas i like others are kinda meh.

Redacted: Ignore this posting.

pm713 wrote:
What about Shrikes weird infiltrate ability? Is that still broken in 7th?

It works fine RAW. It's awkwardly done, sure, but it works. However, he's not worth 185. Give him a small discount and test him to see what happens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matthew wrote:
I like everything except the Biker squad limitations. Feels unnecessary to buy 2 boxes of something to field it.

Maybe just as troops then. It seemed like a good way to nerf bikes without actually nerfing them outside the additional point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Ideally something needs to be done about Grav killing vehicles too well. Codex Marines live and die by the efficiency of Grav weapons.

It could always just strip the HP and not immobilize. That way they're still doing work against vehicles.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:It could always just strip the HP and not immobilize. That way they're still doing work against vehicles.

No. Grav weapons should have determinate strengths and weaknesses. Plasma is high strength and low AP, but gets hot. Multimelta is high strength, low AP and excellent against vehicles, but is very short range. Lascannons are high strength and low AP, but are heavy weapons and cost 20 ppm.

Grav needs more weaknesses to offset their benefits.

Grav really shouldnt work on vehicles at all. there are all sorts of weapons that cant do gak to vehicles so why should the grav be an exception.

you gotta figure out exactly what you want the grav to do and figure out a fix from there.

 Desubot wrote:
Grav really shouldnt work on vehicles at all. there are all sorts of weapons that cant do gak to vehicles so why should the grav be an exception.

you gotta figure out exactly what you want the grav to do and figure out a fix from there.

Grav weapons are supposed to make really heavy things cave in on themselves.

The problem with grav weapons is that they're all salvo weapons (except for the pistol), and the grav amp basically makes the cannon twin-linked.

When you're able to spam it on relentless units, that's a problem.

ScarVet101 wrote:
Mostly ok but why Str 5 Stormbolters? They're only still only use bolter ammo.

Terminators - not so sure on the 2 HW for 5 men but giving them special ammo does seem to be fairly accepted on here. since Overkill showed alternative ammo options for this stuff.

Bikes - keep the min size as 3 but tweak the requirements for upgrades, eg no attack bike unless you have the full 8 standard bikers.

Assault marines - let them take meltaguns (an assault weapon).

Not so sure on the chainblades. Fluff wise that works but then but the same margin terminator armour should get +1 Str standard as it's meant to boost a marines strength significantly more then power armour.

Tigurius, Telion & Chronus and lose Ultramarine chapter tactics and replace it with the standard "chapter tactics" - either that or add a tank commander, chief Librarian (upgrade) and Scout character (replace with scout armour & infiltrate) options for non Ultramarines.

Slight side note - battle companies don't get free transports - Gladius Strikeforces do. Possible replace the free rhinos rule with something more in line with the new Angles of death formations though.

Storm Bolters are spitting out more and look to be mildly larger. Plus we don't need more S4 shooting outside Tacticals. S5 at least lets Terminators have a chance to wound a larger target they would shoot at and charge with fists.
Regarding Terminators getting special ammo, no. That is the gimmick of Sternguard. Otherwise, we're relegating Sternguard to pure suicide roles.
Nobody is taking the Attack Bike anyway.
Assault Marines can get Melta Guns when I or someone else incorporates Blood Angels in this fix. My main idea would be not to let Assault Marines access Special Weapons at all. Rather, they get access to all the pistol variants (still at 5 points a piece), and a Jump Pack HQ unlocks them as troops. However, that's more typing I didn't really want to do.
It's a very insignificant add-on that goes a long way to make Assault Marines worth a look. Regarding Terminator Armor giving a Strength boost, you're taking Power Fists more than likely anyway. I've yet to see someone keep a Terminator Captain/Master with their Sword.
Those are Ultramarine specific characters. They stay as is. Should you want to create more special characters for Iron Hands (they've got 1 from FW, and that's from a Successor so that doesn't count), just create rules that kinda make sense.
Also, Battle Demi-Companies do get the free transports.

Traditio wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I like a lot of these fixes. Could we allow 6 man bike squads but at 24 ppm since bike boxes come with 3?

Only if you're willing to accept the same limitations and price for windriders.

Few things I find funny.

1. The 24 ppm was actually something you and I and some other discussed and agreed on, even for windriders, and so I've already "accepted that"
2. The fact that either a) you don't remember that conversation or b) you are just trying to troll.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:Few things I find funny.

1. The 24 ppm was actually something you and I and some other discussed and agreed on, even for windriders, and so I've already "accepted that"
2. The fact that either a) you don't remember that conversation or b) you are just trying to troll.

I don't remember you actually formally agreeing to 1.

But fair enough. Duly noted.

My hat off to you.

woop that was at Traditio response. Ehh i guess. the weapon it self makes no sense to me. as even people still have mass. even without armor.

heck some MC with no armor on it have WAY more mass than a terminator.

it really needs a fluff fix imho.

i feel like it shouldn't immobilize tanks. maybe stun them otherwise multiple grav shots will double up on immobilize HP which is a core rule problem

Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:1. Black Templars get Rending in challenges again, because it is stupid they removed it..
2. Clarification that Iron Hands vehicles get IWND. All of them.
3. Salamanders vehicles get bonuses to their flame weapons, because it is stupid they don't.
4. Imperial Fists get clarification that their vehicles get rerolls to hit with Bolter weapons, because they're being used by Imperial Fist Space Marines and it is stupid that hey don't.

2-4 can be simplified into a single rule: "All SM vehicles now have the chapter tactics special rule."

Weapon and equipment fixes
1. Storm Bolters are now S5

Heavy bolters and stormbolters now have the same strength? Do they fire the same sized bullets?

5. Pistol variants now cost 5 points

5 points or 5 points less?

6. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless again and is 50 points

Why? It's not terminator armor. It does need a price reduction, though. Replacing power armor with terminator armor is much less expensive than the armor indomitus.

7. That relic banner thing is only 50 points

I'm inclined to agree with this. Fear is practically useless, and Pedro gets the effects of that banner, plus other stuff, for a lot cheaper.

HQ fixes
1. Khan is now 150
2. Tigurius is now 175
3. Shrike is now 175 points
4. PRETTY sure Helbrecht doesn't have Orbital Bombardment. He now has that

1. Only chapter masters should get orbital bombardment. Helbrecht is not a chapter master. He is a "high marshal," whatever that is. That's what you get for not rigidly following the Codex Astartes.

2. Captain + jump pack = 105 points. A lightning claw is only 15 ppm. I'm at 135. Imho, even taking into account his special rules, Shryke still hideously overcosted at 175.

2. Lightning Claw Terminators are 30 points

30 ppm for a model in terminator armor? Why?

Heavy Support fixes
1. Whirlwinds are 60 a piece

Why does a model which fires barrage large blasts at 72 inches need a price reduction?

2. Centurions pay the full 35 points for their Grav Cannons, because them getting a 10 point discount was stupid

It replaces a twin-linked heavy bolter. 35 (the cost of the cannon) - 10 (the cost of a heavy bolter) = 25.

Oh, and the Battle Demi-Company doesn't give free transports of any kind.

Why not?

I'm fine with free rhinos.

Oh yeah. We COULD just go with that.
They're not the same AP or firing rate, and Storm Bolters do appear larger. The fix is fine.
Pistols are 5 points, not 5 points less.
It's basically Terminator-armor-but-not. Last edition gave it Relentless, and taking that away on top of no discount was stupid. Therefore, giving a small discount AND conferring Relentless means your Bolters from the occasional Combi-Weapon aren't almost useless.
Glad you agree on the Banner.
Helbrecht IS a Chapter Master. High Marshal is nothing but a fancier title, and the Black Templars are a crusading FLEET chapter. He gets the Bombardment.
With Shrike, you're basically paying the extra 40 points for Infiltrating a Vanguard squad and getting Rending on his Claws. I say 175 and test to see what happens.
Lightning Claw Terminators become 30 a piece because that equipment being the same cost as a Storm Bolter and Fist is complete bogus. TH/SS Terminators become 40 again, and there's a semblance of almost-internal balance.
I'm PRETTY sure Whirlwinds don't have 72" on their guns. Even then, I wouldn't take it over a Thunderfire. Ergo, slight price cut.
I also don't care. You're assuming that they were upgraded with the Heavy Bolter. Pretty sure the Predator would pay less for its TL Lascannon using that logic, but that's not a bad idea as Predators are rarely taken. That said, you want balance on Grav Centurions? Making them 10 points more to take does that job fine.
Free transports and upgrades is stupid. Rules can be perfectly acceptable and fluffy, but it isn't fluffy that Space Marines just get free vehicles for working together in a specific manner. Therefore, there needs to be a different bonus.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Pistols are 5 points, not 5 points less.

I don't think that I can agree with this.

5 points for a grav or plasma pistol seems unreasonably underpriced. I could see making it 5 ppm less than current, though. Then a plasma pistol or grav pistol would be points equivalent to a meltagun or multimelta. But even then, does a grav pistol really need a points reduction?

It's basically Terminator-armor-but-not. Last edition gave it Relentless, and taking that away on top of no discount was stupid. Therefore, giving a small discount AND conferring Relentless means your Bolters from the occasional Combi-Weapon aren't almost useless.

I think the problem is that it's just artificer armor. Artificer armor is just really old, really nice, really well crafted power armor. Power armor doesn't confer relentless (it should; but it doesn't).

Actually, how's that for a fix?

Power armor confers relentless.

Glad you agree on the Banner.

Actually, I'm having second thoughts about this. How much is a 12 inch fearless bubble worth?

Helbrecht IS a Chapter Master. High Marshal is nothing but a fancier title, and the Black Templars are a crusading FLEET chapter. He gets the Bombardment.

Noted. Also, it occurs to me:

That's a "4" underneath W and A on the statline on p. 126.

Lightning Claw Terminators become 30 a piece because that equipment being the same cost as a Storm Bolter and Fist is complete bogus. TH/SS Terminators become 40 again, and there's a semblance of almost-internal balance.

A lightning claw terminator is basically an honor guard, minus the ranged weapons, plus a 5+ invuln, add dual wielding lightning claws.

30 points seems fair.

I'm PRETTY sure Whirlwinds don't have 72" on their guns. Even then, I wouldn't take it over a Thunderfire. Ergo, slight price cut.

You're right. 12-48.

Still, that's "ordnance" and "barrage" in the weapon statline. Not to mention the formation bonuses.

I also don't care. You're assuming that they were upgraded with the Heavy Bolter.

They come with heavy bolters. The grav cannon replaces the heavy bolters.

Pretty sure the Predator would pay less for its TL Lascannon using that logic, but that's not a bad idea as Predators are rarely taken.

It's 25 ppm to replace the autocannon with a TL lascannon. I have no clue how much a TL lascannon is worth.

For comparative purposes, the Razorback replaces the TL heavy bolter with a lascannon and TL plasma gun for 20 points.

That's a big discount.

That said, you want balance on Grav Centurions? Making them 10 points more to take does that job fine.

Imho, the solution is: 1. to make centurions as such more appropriately costed (a 2 wound model with that save, that toughness and that wargear shouldn't be a 55 point model), 2. nerf grav and 3. nerf psychic support.

Free transports and upgrades is stupid. Rules can be perfectly acceptable and fluffy, but it isn't fluffy that Space Marines just get free vehicles for working together in a specific manner. Therefore, there needs to be a different bonus.

I have no a priori reason to think that free transports and upgrades is stupid or unreasonable. The fact that you personally don't like it doesn't make it unfair or overpowered.

All special rules, transports, upgrades, etc. have a points value. It makes no difference if free models, transports, upgrades, special rules, etc. are conferred. Points equivalencies/balance can be effected regardless.

And I want you to bear this in mind:

Would a captain, a chaplain, 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault marine squads be viable without free rhinos?

Furthermore:

If I'm taking 700 points of marines and 180 points of chaplain and captain, I'm already imposing a fairly serious tax on my army. That tax needs to be compensated, and gaining, for all intents and purposes, Ultramarines Chapter Tactics in addition to whatever it is that I already have simply doesn't cut it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Here's some actual fixes.

Haha it's always nice to see the optimism! As a precursor to everything below, a lot of what you've said in the original post doesn't seem to address any actual issues with the codex.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Chapter Tactics fixes
1. Black Templars get Rending in challenges again, because it is stupid they removed it..
2. Clarification that Iron Hands vehicles get IWND. All of them.
3. Salamanders vehicles get bonuses to their flame weapons, because it is stupid they don't.
4. Imperial Fists get clarification that their vehicles get rerolls to hit with Bolter weapons, because they're being used by Imperial Fist Space Marines and it is stupid that hey don't.

(1) As much as I'd love my BTs having Rending in Challenges, I feel this is a SR that you give a weapon, not a model or unit.
(2) What needs clarification?
(3) I agree.
(4) I reckon this is an arguable point, but I would have no objections to this being implemented.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Weapon and equipment fixes
1. Storm Bolters are now S5
2. Heavy Bolters are Heavy 4
3. Chainswords get rerolls of 1 to wound
4. Combi-Weapons now cost 5 points
5. Pistol variants now cost 5 points
6. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless again and is 50 points
7. That relic banner thing is only 50 points

(1) As was mentioned before: Storm Bolters should not be Strength 5. They're an Assault 2 Weapon rather than a Rapid Fire Weapon, which means they're already better than their standard Bolter counterparts.
(2) As was mentioned before: They should be along the lines of Salvo 2/4. That seems more fair.
(3) I think that would make a good Special Rule that was part of the Chapter Tactics for Blood Angels, Black Templars, and/or somebody similar.
(4) I can get on board with this.
(5) Grav Pistols and Plasma Pistols should be 10 points. 5 points is too cheap.
(6) TAI doesn't need to be changed IMHO, though a flat reduction in points to 50 points would be nice.
(7) No preference on this.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:HQ fixes
1. Khan is now 150
2. Tigurius is now 175
3. Shrike is now 175 points
4. PRETTY sure Helbrecht doesn't have Orbital Bombardment. He now has that

I can't comment on the first three, but I don't think Helbrecht needs Orbital Bombardment. It's not a necessity to have it, and I think he's better of being upgraded and made a Lord of War. Whether that entails OB is something I'm not fussed on, but there's no reason why he can't have it. There's just no particular reason why he needs it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Troop fixes
1. Tactical Marines get to take another Special Weapon at 10 man squads
2. Bikers are always at a minimum of 5 men in a squad and are 22 points a dude now

(1) I can get behind this.
(2) I don't understand: Why do people think bikes need to be more expensive? And considering the increase is only 1 pt/model, what's the point?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Elite fixes
1. Tactical Terminators can take two Heavy Weapons at 5 men
2. Lightning Claw Terminators are 30 points, and taking a TH/SS stays the same

I don't think these are the changes that need to be made. I think you're better off making them such that they have T5, W2, A3 (on the Sergeants only), and possibly S5. Does this warrant a points increase? Maybe (probably). Does it warrant much of a points increase if the answer to the last question was 'yes'? No.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Fast Attack fixes
1. None! Assault Marines become mildly better because of a minor fix to Chainswords

I think Assault Marines (and Jump Units in general) could benefit from being able to assault after arriving by Deep Strike with the following restrictions (should they choose to assault that turn):

-- Cannot manifest psykic powers during the turn the arrive by DS.
-- Cannot make shooting attacks during the turn the arrive by DS.
-- Do not benefit from items/SRs/other effects that prevent them from scattering or reduce their scatter distance.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Heavy Support fixes
1. Whirlwinds are 60 a piece
2. Centurions pay the full 35 points for their Grav Cannons, because them getting a 10 point discount was stupid

No to both. Whirlwinds definitely don't need to be cheaper, and Grav Cannons need to be nerfed, NOT Centurions.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Storm Bolters are spitting out more and look to be mildly larger.

I think you should look into Storm Bolters. They're just a twin-barreled version of a standard Bolter. They might look like they use bigger ammunition, but they don't.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Plus we don't need more S4 shooting outside Tacticals. S5 at least lets Terminators have a chance to wound a larger target they would shoot at and charge with fists

We need S5 shooting attacks even less. And being an S4 Assault 2 Weapon does exactly what you apparently want it to do anyway,

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Assault Marines can get Melta Guns when I or someone else incorporates Blood Angels in this fix. My main idea would be not to let Assault Marines access Special Weapons at all. Rather, they get access to all the pistol variants (still at 5 points a piece), and a Jump Pack HQ unlocks them as troops.

Why change them like this? It's unnecessary and doesn't address any problem. Plus Jump Units as Troops Choices is travelling too much into territory Vanilla Marines should not be in.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:However, that's more typing I didn't really want to do.

If you don't want to be doing a lot of typing, then genuinely trying to actually fix a codex isn't for you because it will generally involve a lot of writing (not to mention of lot of identifying problems and reading).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:It's a very insignificant add-on that goes a long way to make Assault Marines worth a look. Regarding Terminator Armor giving a Strength boost, you're taking Power Fists more than likely anyway. I've yet to see someone keep a Terminator Captain/Master with their Sword.

A Strength boost for Terminator Armour actually makes sense since it's a larger suit of armour compared to regular Power Armour and, like Power Armour, Terminator Armour is powered (duh). So it is plausible. Also, the fact that it's typical of people to take Power Fists on their Terminator Captain/Chapter Master should not play any role in deciding whether or not a strength boost from Terminator Armour is appropriate.

Every Chapter Master in the book except Helbrecht has Orbital Strike. The Black Templars are experts in space warfare to the degree that Helbrecht was made Supreme Commander over the Armageddon space theatre of operations. If anyone ought to have Orbital Strike, it's Helbrecht. He's not relentless anyway, so he'd have to waste a turn to use it.

Why would a 5 point pistol be so terrifying? It's one shot at 12". What's the nastiest possible scenario? Vanguard Veterans with 2 Grav-pistols each are more expensive Grav Devastators, even at 5 points per pistol, without Grav amps with lower range. What are we so afraid of?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Every Chapter Master in the book except Helbrecht has Orbital Strike. The Black Templars are experts in space warfare to the degree that Helbrecht was made Supreme Commander over the Armageddon space theatre of operations. If anyone ought to have Orbital Strike, it's Helbrecht. He's not relentless anyway, so he'd have to waste a turn to use it.

Fair call.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Why would a 5 point pistol be so terrifying? It's one shot at 12". What's the nastiest possible scenario? Vanguard Veterans with 2 Grav-pistols each are more expensive Grav Devastators, even at 5 points per pistol, without Grav amps with lower range. What are we so afraid of?

Maybe not for Grav Pistols, but Plasma Pistols at 5 Points? That's pretty cheap for a S7 AP2 shot, even with a 12" Range and Gets Hot.

No it isn't. You're paying 29 PPM (assuming Vanguard Veterans with 2 pistols each) for MEQ on foot with an 18" threat range that risk killing themselves when they shoot. Plasma Pistols just aren't very good even when massed. Sure, you could Drop Pod them in, at which point they die because T4 3+ is nothing special at all.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No it isn't. You're paying 29 PPM (assuming Vanguard Veterans with 2 pistols each) for MEQ on foot with an 18" threat range that risk killing themselves when they shoot. Plasma Pistols just aren't very good even when massed. Sure, you could Drop Pod them in, at which point they die because T4 3+ is nothing special at all.

Fair enough. At the very least, we can both agree they're most definitely not worth the 15 points the codex currently requires you to pay for Plasma Pistols.

Grav weapons definitely shouldn't have AP2, simply forcing re-rolls on armour saves would be plenty IMO, as that still reduces a ~66% chance to pass down to ~44% if my math is right, 2+ is reduced from ~88% to ~77%, but was ~16.6% easier to wound in the first place. I'd say what they need more is some mechanic based on size, e.g- inflict D3 Wounds against Very Bulky, or each hit is multiplied into one hit per Wound (so if you hit with one shot against a 3 wound target, that's 3 hits).

There are a bunch of options that aren't nearly as messed up as the current grav rules, without penalising terminators so much.


Storm Bolters shouldn't be Strength 5, I'd say they should instead be Assault 2/Heavy 4, so Terminators being Relentless will always fire double the number of shots, while others have to stay put to get that bonus. Heavy Bolters should perhaps be the same or be Salvo 3/5 or such; an Assault Cannon still has better Strength and Rending.

Chainswords should IMO be min Strength 4 and AP5; obviously the Strength doesn't help marines, but would make the distinction between freakin' chainsaw sword and tiny little combat knife a lot more significant for everyone.

 Haravikk wrote:
Grav weapons definitely shouldn't have AP2, simply forcing re-rolls on armour saves would be plenty IMO, as that still reduces a ~66% chance to pass down to ~44% if my math is right, 2+ is reduced from ~88% to ~77%, but was ~16.6% easier to wound in the first place. I'd say what they need more is some mechanic based on size, e.g- inflict D3 Wounds against Very Bulky, or each hit is multiplied into one hit per Wound (so if you hit with one shot against a 3 wound target, that's 3 hits).

As long as the weapon doesn't have any AP value, then re-rolling armour saves sounds pretty good to me. As for vehicles, I reckon a good system would be to do it by AV bands (e.g. 10 - 12, and 12 - 14) or something like that where every AV or AV band is affected differently by Grav Weapons (e.g. AV 10 - 12 band take one Hit at S6 AP- and AV 13 - 14 take D2 + 1 Hits at S8 AP-).

 Haravikk wrote:
Chainswords should IMO be min Strength 4 and AP5; obviously the Strength doesn't help marines, but would make the distinction between freakin' chainsaw sword and tiny little combat knife a lot more significant for everyone.

I reckon Chainswords are fine as they are, but they should be different from the basic 'Close Combat Weapon' weapon. Instead of buffing Chainswords, the 'Close Combat Weapon' should be nerfed to, for example, S3 AP- and doesn't confer the +1 Attack when paired with another CCW-class weapon.

Grav needs to retain AP2 as long as Monstrous Creatures with 2+ armour exist. Making it wound normal models on a 5+, bulky on 4+, very bulky on 3+ and extremely bulky on 2+, as well as doing something about Grav-amps and the effect on vehicles should be enough.

I'm fine with it keeping AP: 2, but how about this:

Grav wounds based on bulk:

against non-bulky infantry (and beasts): 6+(or 5+)
bulky infantry (and cavalry?): 4+
very bulky: 3+
extremely bulky, MCs, GMCs: 2+

vehicles stay the same however it only immobilizes on a 5+ after a glance.

this makes it less effective against general infantry, still keeps it strong against terminators (and more importantly MCs/GMCs), and over-all tones down the weapon, meaning there's an actual reason to take the other special weapons when compared to current grav.

EDIT: I didn't fully read Walrus's post

 IllumiNini wrote:
I reckon Chainswords are fine as they are, but they should be different from the basic 'Close Combat Weapon' weapon. Instead of buffing Chainswords, the 'Close Combat Weapon' should be nerfed to, for example, S3 AP- and doesn't confer the +1 Attack when paired with another CCW-class weapon.

I dunno, I'd say a Space Marine with a combat knife shouldn't be hitting at Strength 3, so I'd say that close combat weapons are fine as-is; in fact most of the time they're specifically a fancy way of saying "gets +1 attack if it also has a pistol" so making them specifically fail to do that would be a major nerf. The problem IMO is that chainswords are described as chewing through armour (sometimes even power armour) yet in-game they can barely chew through paper (a.k.a.- "A Sister Repentia's armour").

I think minimum Strength 4 and AP5 value would be nice for marines, but especially so for Strength 3 models like Sisters Repentia, and the guard models that get them. In case of marines it means they can ignore the same AP that their shooting ignores already, which would help Assault Marines chew through horde enemies more easily at least.