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for chainswords I probably wouldn't go to much beyond AP: 6 (and give heavy chainswords AP: 3 'cause why not ). the fact of the matter is that fluff =/= table top or else we would have multi-wound, high toughness marines in heavier armour. From a gameplay perspective, giving chainswords any buffs without separating them from regular CCWs is simply a kick to the teeth for nids, orks, and other light armour armies.

Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Pistols are 5 points, not 5 points less.

I don't think that I can agree with this.

5 points for a grav or plasma pistol seems unreasonably underpriced. I could see making it 5 ppm less than current, though. Then a plasma pistol or grav pistol would be points equivalent to a meltagun or multimelta. But even then, does a grav pistol really need a points reduction?

It's basically Terminator-armor-but-not. Last edition gave it Relentless, and taking that away on top of no discount was stupid. Therefore, giving a small discount AND conferring Relentless means your Bolters from the occasional Combi-Weapon aren't almost useless.

I think the problem is that it's just artificer armor. Artificer armor is just really old, really nice, really well crafted power armor. Power armor doesn't confer relentless (it should; but it doesn't).

Actually, how's that for a fix?

Power armor confers relentless.

Glad you agree on the Banner.

Actually, I'm having second thoughts about this. How much is a 12 inch fearless bubble worth?

Helbrecht IS a Chapter Master. High Marshal is nothing but a fancier title, and the Black Templars are a crusading FLEET chapter. He gets the Bombardment.

Noted. Also, it occurs to me:

That's a "4" underneath W and A on the statline on p. 126.

Lightning Claw Terminators become 30 a piece because that equipment being the same cost as a Storm Bolter and Fist is complete bogus. TH/SS Terminators become 40 again, and there's a semblance of almost-internal balance.

A lightning claw terminator is basically an honor guard, minus the ranged weapons, plus a 5+ invuln, add dual wielding lightning claws.

30 points seems fair.

I'm PRETTY sure Whirlwinds don't have 72" on their guns. Even then, I wouldn't take it over a Thunderfire. Ergo, slight price cut.

You're right. 12-48.

Still, that's "ordnance" and "barrage" in the weapon statline. Not to mention the formation bonuses.

I also don't care. You're assuming that they were upgraded with the Heavy Bolter.

They come with heavy bolters. The grav cannon replaces the heavy bolters.

Pretty sure the Predator would pay less for its TL Lascannon using that logic, but that's not a bad idea as Predators are rarely taken.

It's 25 ppm to replace the autocannon with a TL lascannon. I have no clue how much a TL lascannon is worth.

For comparative purposes, the Razorback replaces the TL heavy bolter with a lascannon and TL plasma gun for 20 points.

That's a big discount.

That said, you want balance on Grav Centurions? Making them 10 points more to take does that job fine.

Imho, the solution is: 1. to make centurions as such more appropriately costed (a 2 wound model with that save, that toughness and that wargear shouldn't be a 55 point model), 2. nerf grav and 3. nerf psychic support.

Free transports and upgrades is stupid. Rules can be perfectly acceptable and fluffy, but it isn't fluffy that Space Marines just get free vehicles for working together in a specific manner. Therefore, there needs to be a different bonus.

I have no a priori reason to think that free transports and upgrades is stupid or unreasonable. The fact that you personally don't like it doesn't make it unfair or overpowered.

All special rules, transports, upgrades, etc. have a points value. It makes no difference if free models, transports, upgrades, special rules, etc. are conferred. Points equivalencies/balance can be effected regardless.

And I want you to bear this in mind:

Would a captain, a chaplain, 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault marine squads be viable without free rhinos?

Furthermore:

If I'm taking 700 points of marines and 180 points of chaplain and captain, I'm already imposing a fairly serious tax on my army. That tax needs to be compensated, and gaining, for all intents and purposes, Ultramarines Chapter Tactics in addition to whatever it is that I already have simply doesn't cut it.

1. 10 points would make the Plasma Pistol the equivalent of a Melta Gun. No. They certainly aren't worth the price of a Plasma Gun, and they aren't worth the price of a Melta Gun.
As well, Grav only works when you get a large number of shots with them. A Grav Pistol being 5 points is perfectly fine, even if you don't seem to understand that.
2. Power Armor shouldn't be Relentless. As well, how far back do you have to cut the price of TAI to make it worth anything in the current state. Think about it:
a. It is only Artificer Armor, though coming with a 6++. Librarians can just take regular Terminator armor for a 5++.
b. You're also paying for the convenience of being able to take it on Chaplains and Librarians, not suffering potential drawbacks of being Bulky. This really only translates to making it easier to throw someone in a Drop Pod.
c. It gives a 2++ once per game. If you were facing AM, you probably wouldn't use this ability once. Otherwise, you're easily able to grab SS's for a 3++, which is more consistent.
Therefore, not only did it need a drastic price cut, but it needed to gain Relentless back, even if it was hardly taken advantage of.
3. Fearless isn't worth much. It is easily found in outside sources if you care THAT much, but I don't really think most Marine players wish they had Fearless a lot.
4. Good, you agree on Helbrecht. Moving on.
5. Good, you agree on LC Terminators. Moving on.
6. You're showing that you haven't read your codex much. Also, nobody is taking the Whirlwind anyway WITH the squadron bonus. It isn't like Thunderfires are already taken enmasse.
7. Lascannons and Heavy Bolters aren't worth much. Centurions of any other kind aren't taken, yet hitting the Grav Cannon as hard as some people want means that they won't be taken, period. Therefore, we make it cost the same as it would on a regular Space Marine. Bam, now they're almost 100 a piece. Perfectly fine for what they do.
8. It is unreasonable. Rhinos are bad at 35 points, but become stupid when free. The bonus itself makes no sense as well. A Necron Decurion makes sense for its unit makeup and bonuses. An Eldar Decurion makes sense for its unit makeup and bonuses. A Daemonkin Decurion makes sense for its unit makeup and bonuses. The Space Marine Decurion makes sense until we're given free transports. It makes no sense lore-wise or balance-wise. Therefore, we find a different bonus. I don't know what it would be, but at the very least with my fixes the issue is partially solved.
9. Tactical Marines shouldn't BE a tax in the first place. Nor should Assault Marines or Devastators. Hence why I did the things I did to make those units more worthwhile. I fixed the core issue, not created another one.

 IllumiNini wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Here's some actual fixes.

Haha it's always nice to see the optimism! As a precursor to everything below, a lot of what you've said in the original post doesn't seem to address any actual issues with the codex.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Chapter Tactics fixes
1. Black Templars get Rending in challenges again, because it is stupid they removed it..
2. Clarification that Iron Hands vehicles get IWND. All of them.
3. Salamanders vehicles get bonuses to their flame weapons, because it is stupid they don't.
4. Imperial Fists get clarification that their vehicles get rerolls to hit with Bolter weapons, because they're being used by Imperial Fist Space Marines and it is stupid that hey don't.

(1) As much as I'd love my BTs having Rending in Challenges, I feel this is a SR that you give a weapon, not a model or unit.
(2) What needs clarification?
(3) I agree.
(4) I reckon this is an arguable point, but I would have no objections to this being implemented.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Weapon and equipment fixes
1. Storm Bolters are now S5
2. Heavy Bolters are Heavy 4
3. Chainswords get rerolls of 1 to wound
4. Combi-Weapons now cost 5 points
5. Pistol variants now cost 5 points
6. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless again and is 50 points
7. That relic banner thing is only 50 points

(1) As was mentioned before: Storm Bolters should not be Strength 5. They're an Assault 2 Weapon rather than a Rapid Fire Weapon, which means they're already better than their standard Bolter counterparts.
(2) As was mentioned before: They should be along the lines of Salvo 2/4. That seems more fair.
(3) I think that would make a good Special Rule that was part of the Chapter Tactics for Blood Angels, Black Templars, and/or somebody similar.
(4) I can get on board with this.
(5) Grav Pistols and Plasma Pistols should be 10 points. 5 points is too cheap.
(6) TAI doesn't need to be changed IMHO, though a flat reduction in points to 50 points would be nice.
(7) No preference on this.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:HQ fixes
1. Khan is now 150
2. Tigurius is now 175
3. Shrike is now 175 points
4. PRETTY sure Helbrecht doesn't have Orbital Bombardment. He now has that

I can't comment on the first three, but I don't think Helbrecht needs Orbital Bombardment. It's not a necessity to have it, and I think he's better of being upgraded and made a Lord of War. Whether that entails OB is something I'm not fussed on, but there's no reason why he can't have it. There's just no particular reason why he needs it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Troop fixes
1. Tactical Marines get to take another Special Weapon at 10 man squads
2. Bikers are always at a minimum of 5 men in a squad and are 22 points a dude now

(1) I can get behind this.
(2) I don't understand: Why do people think bikes need to be more expensive? And considering the increase is only 1 pt/model, what's the point?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Elite fixes
1. Tactical Terminators can take two Heavy Weapons at 5 men
2. Lightning Claw Terminators are 30 points, and taking a TH/SS stays the same

I don't think these are the changes that need to be made. I think you're better off making them such that they have T5, W2, A3 (on the Sergeants only), and possibly S5. Does this warrant a points increase? Maybe (probably). Does it warrant much of a points increase if the answer to the last question was 'yes'? No.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Fast Attack fixes
1. None! Assault Marines become mildly better because of a minor fix to Chainswords

I think Assault Marines (and Jump Units in general) could benefit from being able to assault after arriving by Deep Strike with the following restrictions (should they choose to assault that turn):

-- Cannot manifest psykic powers during the turn the arrive by DS.
-- Cannot make shooting attacks during the turn the arrive by DS.
-- Do not benefit from items/SRs/other effects that prevent them from scattering or reduce their scatter distance.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Heavy Support fixes
1. Whirlwinds are 60 a piece
2. Centurions pay the full 35 points for their Grav Cannons, because them getting a 10 point discount was stupid

No to both. Whirlwinds definitely don't need to be cheaper, and Grav Cannons need to be nerfed, NOT Centurions.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Storm Bolters are spitting out more and look to be mildly larger.

I think you should look into Storm Bolters. They're just a twin-barreled version of a standard Bolter. They might look like they use bigger ammunition, but they don't.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Plus we don't need more S4 shooting outside Tacticals. S5 at least lets Terminators have a chance to wound a larger target they would shoot at and charge with fists

We need S5 shooting attacks even less. And being an S4 Assault 2 Weapon does exactly what you apparently want it to do anyway,

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Assault Marines can get Melta Guns when I or someone else incorporates Blood Angels in this fix. My main idea would be not to let Assault Marines access Special Weapons at all. Rather, they get access to all the pistol variants (still at 5 points a piece), and a Jump Pack HQ unlocks them as troops.

Why change them like this? It's unnecessary and doesn't address any problem. Plus Jump Units as Troops Choices is travelling too much into territory Vanilla Marines should not be in.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:However, that's more typing I didn't really want to do.

If you don't want to be doing a lot of typing, then genuinely trying to actually fix a codex isn't for you because it will generally involve a lot of writing (not to mention of lot of identifying problems and reading).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:It's a very insignificant add-on that goes a long way to make Assault Marines worth a look. Regarding Terminator Armor giving a Strength boost, you're taking Power Fists more than likely anyway. I've yet to see someone keep a Terminator Captain/Master with their Sword.

A Strength boost for Terminator Armour actually makes sense since it's a larger suit of armour compared to regular Power Armour and, like Power Armour, Terminator Armour is powered (duh). So it is plausible. Also, the fact that it's typical of people to take Power Fists on their Terminator Captain/Chapter Master should not play any role in deciding whether or not a strength boost from Terminator Armour is appropriate.

1. I have every reason to be optimistic. However, I did fix issues contrary to what you say. And I'll explain further on how as I tackle your individual points.
2. You can feel that way about Rending all you want, but TWC and DoS get it as a universal rule for all their melee attacks. It was a neat addition that was removed for no real particular good reason.
3. Iron Hands vehicles are in a tricky situation in that some interpret ALL vehicles and not just Dreadnoughts as getting IWND. So when someone suggested that vehicles just get CT, too, it made all my typing almost pointless but did a great job in conveying what I mean to say.
4. Nobody takes Storm Bolters. NOBODY. Making them Assault 3 definitely doesn't fix the issue, and making them Salvo (for whatever reason people like suggesting) only hurts PA Grey Knights further, AND for those 5 Terminators I'm still better off taking more Tactical Marines if I REALLY want more Bolter shots. OR I could make them mildly unique and make them S5, which is a fix nobody suggests. It makes them hit a little harder at things Terminators want to charge, makes it a neat option for that Captain you modeled with it for some strange reason, and REALLY makes it the middle ground between the Bolter and the Heavy Bolter. Grav and Plasma Pistols are also NOT worth 10 points, that gets me a Melta Gun or a current Combi-Weapon; the convenience of counting as a melee weapon isn't worth the price whatsoever. Plus you're likely taking the LC/PF combo on your HQ or you're keeping your Sergeants cheap. Regarding Blood Angels CT, I was thinking the Descent Of Angels rules + PE in melee for the first round would be...okay. I haven't entirely decided yet. I'm also unsure why you and Traditio oppose TAI gaining Relentless again.
5. I gave my reasoning to another poster regarding Helbrecht and Orbital Bombardment. He's from a crusading FLEET chapter and is their Chapter Master. Not having it doesn't make a lick of sense.
6. While I'm glad you're on board with the Tactical Marine fix (as sometimes the simplest fix to a non-profile problem goes a long way), I already accepted that Bikers don't need to be at minimum of 5 guys unless they're Troops. Also, a mild price increase helps with the rebalancing of your Troop options. I'm giving them that slight price bump as someone that exclusively runs Biker Marines (and I don't even use White Scars CT).
7. You're turning Terminators into Centurions. I made them more unique with that fix to Storm Bolters and being able to take two Heavy Weapons at five men. Terminators don't NEED more durability, they need more offensive output. All you do by increasing their toughness is just getting them ignored entirely (as offensively they're not a threat), instead of killing them when a KP is needed.
8. Jump Unit rules are honestly fine; they just need to be priced appropriately. Ever seen a Decurion Triarch Praetorian in action?
9. Whirlwinds most certainly need to be cheaper. Thunderfire Cannons already outclass them considerably, and they're hardly taken even WITH the buff to Techmarines. As well, if you hit the Grav Cannon too hard, you don't see Devastator Centurions get taken.
10. You can make your defense for the Storm Bolter all you want, but is it going to be taken as is? No. Would it be taken as Assault 3? No.
11. I say change them like that because it makes NO sense that Tactical Marines don't get two special weapons at 10 dudes, and Assault Marines get two special weapons no matter what. Let them have access to Pistol variants for the price I gave, keep the Chainsword profile I gave, and suddenly those Tactical Marines, Assault Marines, and Biker Marines play VERY differently. Most of all, it would be fun.
12. Some things are implied, and other things don't strike you immediately. It was the latter.
13. Terminator Armor increasing strength makes sense, but not in a D6 game. We need to keep Terminators and Centurions distinct from each other, with Centurions being what you want out of Terminators (super durable and slow moving with minor offensive output) and what I imagine them to be (a quick strike out of nowhere that should cripple a squad that turn or the next, for Assault Terminators at least!).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Here's some actual fixes.

Chapter Tactics fixes
1. Black Templars get Rending in challenges again, because it is stupid they removed it..
2. Clarification that Iron Hands vehicles get IWND. All of them.
3. Salamanders vehicles get bonuses to their flame weapons, because it is stupid they don't.
4. Imperial Fists get clarification that their vehicles get rerolls to hit with Bolter weapons, because they're being used by Imperial Fist Space Marines and it is stupid that hey don't.

Weapon and equipment fixes
1. Storm Bolters are now S5
2. Heavy Bolters are Heavy 4
3. Chainswords get rerolls of 1 to wound
4. Combi-Weapons now cost 5 points
5. Pistol variants now cost 5 points
6. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless again and is 50 points
7. That relic banner thing is only 50 points

HQ fixes
1. Khan is now 150
2. Tigurius is now 175
3. Shrike is now 175 points
4. PRETTY sure Helbrecht doesn't have Orbital Bombardment. He now has that

Troop fixes
1. Tactical Marines get to take another Special Weapon at 10 man squads
2. Bikers are always at a minimum of 5 men in a squad and are 22 points a dude now

Elite fixes
1. Tactical Terminators can take two Heavy Weapons at 5 men
2. Lightning Claw Terminators are 30 points, and taking a TH/SS stays the same

Fast Attack fixes
1. None! Assault Marines become mildly better because of a minor fix to Chainswords

Heavy Support fixes
1. Whirlwinds are 60 a piece
2. Centurions pay the full 35 points for their Grav Cannons, because them getting a 10 point discount was stupid

Oh, and the Battle Demi-Company doesn't give free transports of any kind.

Now you just slowly add Dark Angels and Blood Angels. Done.

Seriously?
...Because its stupid...is your reason why x should be y?

Grief wrote:

Seriously?
...Because its stupid...is your reason why x should be y?

You might disagree with my methods, but how do you feel about the results?

Imo a better fix for terminators would be to make them a 2 wound model.

You can't fix terminators in the current system, really. I think the best thing to do is give them more heavy weapons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. I have every reason to be optimistic. However, I did fix issues contrary to what you say. And I'll explain further on how as I tackle your individual points.

I have to disagree. I'm not necessarily saying what you've suggested is bad or wrong or are stupid changes, but most don't really address and/or fix an issue. The Storm Bolter argument is a prime example.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2. You can feel that way about Rending all you want, but TWC and DoS get it as a universal rule for all their melee attacks. It was a neat addition that was removed for no real particular good reason.

And I see no reason to bring it back, either. I disagree with you in the sense that "It was a bad idea to remove it." is not a good enough reason to bring it back.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3. Iron Hands vehicles are in a tricky situation in that some interpret ALL vehicles and not just Dreadnoughts as getting IWND. So when someone suggested that vehicles just get CT, too, it made all my typing almost pointless but did a great job in conveying what I mean to say.

Does it have the Chapter Tactics Special Rule? Yes? Then it gets it. If it doesn't have the Chapter Tactics Special Rule, then it can't technically be an Iron Hands vehicle.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
4. Nobody takes Storm Bolters. NOBODY. Making them Assault 3 definitely doesn't fix the issue, and making them Salvo (for whatever reason people like suggesting) only hurts PA Grey Knights further, AND for those 5 Terminators I'm still better off taking more Tactical Marines if I REALLY want more Bolter shots. OR I could make them mildly unique and make them S5, which is a fix nobody suggests. It makes them hit a little harder at things Terminators want to charge, makes it a neat option for that Captain you modeled with it for some strange reason, and REALLY makes it the middle ground between the Bolter and the Heavy Bolter. Grav and Plasma Pistols are also NOT worth 10 points, that gets me a Melta Gun or a current Combi-Weapon; the convenience of counting as a melee weapon isn't worth the price whatsoever. Plus you're likely taking the LC/PF combo on your HQ or you're keeping your Sergeants cheap. Regarding Blood Angels CT, I was thinking the Descent Of Angels rules + PE in melee for the first round would be...okay. I haven't entirely decided yet. I'm also unsure why you and Traditio oppose TAI gaining Relentless again.

I see Storm Bolters taken all the time when playing against Astartes opponents. And I use them all the time. They're actually really useful. Making them S5 makes no sense because as I said before, they're just a double-barreled Boltgun. If you really want to buff them and make the the 'Middle Ground', then making them AP4 instead may work better.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
5. I gave my reasoning to another poster regarding Helbrecht and Orbital Bombardment. He's from a crusading FLEET chapter and is their Chapter Master. Not having it doesn't make a lick of sense.

All I meant was that he doesn't necessarily need it. But you're right, it makes perfect sense for him to have it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
7. You're turning Terminators into Centurions. I made them more unique with that fix to Storm Bolters and being able to take two Heavy Weapons at five men. Terminators don't NEED more durability, they need more offensive output. All you do by increasing their toughness is just getting them ignored entirely (as offensively they're not a threat), instead of killing them when a KP is needed.

Honestly, my suggestion wasn't terribly well thought out, but they need to be more durable. How does it make sense that they are the same durability as regular Marines in normal Power Armour? It doesn't. So if nothing else, I reckon a boost to Toughness 5 should be a thing with Terminators.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
8. Jump Unit rules are honestly fine; they just need to be priced appropriately. Ever seen a Decurion Triarch Praetorian in action?

Can't say I have.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
9. Whirlwinds most certainly need to be cheaper. Thunderfire Cannons already outclass them considerably, and they're hardly taken even WITH the buff to Techmarines. As well, if you hit the Grav Cannon too hard, you don't see Devastator Centurions get taken.

I think we might have to agree to disagree on the Whirlwinds thing. And maybe, but in any case: Grav Weapons need some sort of nerf.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
10. You can make your defense for the Storm Bolter all you want, but is it going to be taken as is? No. Would it be taken as Assault 3? No.

I can and I will because there's nothing that needs to be fixed with regards to Storm Bolters. And as I said before, I see them get taken all the time. And what's wrong with the current profile? What issue will be fixed by buffing them? Because clearly I'm missing it...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
11. I say change them like that because it makes NO sense that Tactical Marines don't get two special weapons at 10 dudes, and Assault Marines get two special weapons no matter what. Let them have access to Pistol variants for the price I gave, keep the Chainsword profile I gave, and suddenly those Tactical Marines, Assault Marines, and Biker Marines play VERY differently. Most of all, it would be fun.

I can get on board with the Tacticals getting 1x Special Weapon per 5 Models, but I'd be wary of altering the Assault Marines like that. Jump Packs + 2x Meltaguns or something along this lines? That's pretty damn powerful.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
13. Terminator Armor increasing strength makes sense, but not in a D6 game. We need to keep Terminators and Centurions distinct from each other, with Centurions being what you want out of Terminators (super durable and slow moving with minor offensive output) and what I imagine them to be (a quick strike out of nowhere that should cripple a squad that turn or the next, for Assault Terminators at least!).

If you disagree with me about them needing more durability, then I ask you this: What's the point of Terminator Armour? Because from a fluff stand-point, they make you bigger, tougher to kill, and possibly slower (depending on the Marine). From a tabletop standpoint, I don't think the 2+ Armour Save and the 5+ Invulnerable Save quite do the whole durability think justiice.

There is no point to terminator armor. The ia riptide and eldar saw to that.

Martel732 wrote:
There is no point to terminator armor. The ia riptide and eldar saw to that.

Honestly that's why I think they should have two wounds, that way they can at least survive a deep strike and then hopefully assault the next turn vs getting wrecked on entry.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There is no point to terminator armor. The ia riptide and eldar saw to that.

Honestly that's why I think they should have two wounds, that way they can at least survive a deep strike and then hopefully assault the next turn vs getting wrecked on entry.

Umm the Riptide IA is st 8 ap2. or 9 if you want it to be. (2 wounds would do nothing against it)

There needs to be a significant change ALL around.

for starters intercept and overwatch should be on an initiative check.

the riptide IA needs to be AP3 on the blast mode and AP2 on the nova mode.

 Desubot wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There is no point to terminator armor. The ia riptide and eldar saw to that.

Honestly that's why I think they should have two wounds, that way they can at least survive a deep strike and then hopefully assault the next turn vs getting wrecked on entry.

Umm the Riptide IA is st 8 ap2. or 9 if you want it to be. (2 wounds would do nothing against it)

There needs to be a significant change ALL around.

for starters intercept and overwatch should be on an initiative check.

the riptide IA needs to be AP3 on the blast mode and AP2 on the nova mode.

Oh no I agree riptides are op as hell right now, I'm saying 2 wounds along with needing the amount of AP 2 on the field we have right now

 IllumiNini wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. I have every reason to be optimistic. However, I did fix issues contrary to what you say. And I'll explain further on how as I tackle your individual points.

I have to disagree. I'm not necessarily saying what you've suggested is bad or wrong or are stupid changes, but most don't really address and/or fix an issue. The Storm Bolter argument is a prime example.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2. You can feel that way about Rending all you want, but TWC and DoS get it as a universal rule for all their melee attacks. It was a neat addition that was removed for no real particular good reason.

And I see no reason to bring it back, either. I disagree with you in the sense that "It was a bad idea to remove it." is not a good enough reason to bring it back.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3. Iron Hands vehicles are in a tricky situation in that some interpret ALL vehicles and not just Dreadnoughts as getting IWND. So when someone suggested that vehicles just get CT, too, it made all my typing almost pointless but did a great job in conveying what I mean to say.

Does it have the Chapter Tactics Special Rule? Yes? Then it gets it. If it doesn't have the Chapter Tactics Special Rule, then it can't technically be an Iron Hands vehicle.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
4. Nobody takes Storm Bolters. NOBODY. Making them Assault 3 definitely doesn't fix the issue, and making them Salvo (for whatever reason people like suggesting) only hurts PA Grey Knights further, AND for those 5 Terminators I'm still better off taking more Tactical Marines if I REALLY want more Bolter shots. OR I could make them mildly unique and make them S5, which is a fix nobody suggests. It makes them hit a little harder at things Terminators want to charge, makes it a neat option for that Captain you modeled with it for some strange reason, and REALLY makes it the middle ground between the Bolter and the Heavy Bolter. Grav and Plasma Pistols are also NOT worth 10 points, that gets me a Melta Gun or a current Combi-Weapon; the convenience of counting as a melee weapon isn't worth the price whatsoever. Plus you're likely taking the LC/PF combo on your HQ or you're keeping your Sergeants cheap. Regarding Blood Angels CT, I was thinking the Descent Of Angels rules + PE in melee for the first round would be...okay. I haven't entirely decided yet. I'm also unsure why you and Traditio oppose TAI gaining Relentless again.

I see Storm Bolters taken all the time when playing against Astartes opponents. And I use them all the time. They're actually really useful. Making them S5 makes no sense because as I said before, they're just a double-barreled Boltgun. If you really want to buff them and make the the 'Middle Ground', then making them AP4 instead may work better.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
5. I gave my reasoning to another poster regarding Helbrecht and Orbital Bombardment. He's from a crusading FLEET chapter and is their Chapter Master. Not having it doesn't make a lick of sense.

All I meant was that he doesn't necessarily need it. But you're right, it makes perfect sense for him to have it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
7. You're turning Terminators into Centurions. I made them more unique with that fix to Storm Bolters and being able to take two Heavy Weapons at five men. Terminators don't NEED more durability, they need more offensive output. All you do by increasing their toughness is just getting them ignored entirely (as offensively they're not a threat), instead of killing them when a KP is needed.

Honestly, my suggestion wasn't terribly well thought out, but they need to be more durable. How does it make sense that they are the same durability as regular Marines in normal Power Armour? It doesn't. So if nothing else, I reckon a boost to Toughness 5 should be a thing with Terminators.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
8. Jump Unit rules are honestly fine; they just need to be priced appropriately. Ever seen a Decurion Triarch Praetorian in action?

Can't say I have.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
9. Whirlwinds most certainly need to be cheaper. Thunderfire Cannons already outclass them considerably, and they're hardly taken even WITH the buff to Techmarines. As well, if you hit the Grav Cannon too hard, you don't see Devastator Centurions get taken.

I think we might have to agree to disagree on the Whirlwinds thing. And maybe, but in any case: Grav Weapons need some sort of nerf.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
10. You can make your defense for the Storm Bolter all you want, but is it going to be taken as is? No. Would it be taken as Assault 3? No.

I can and I will because there's nothing that needs to be fixed with regards to Storm Bolters. And as I said before, I see them get taken all the time. And what's wrong with the current profile? What issue will be fixed by buffing them? Because clearly I'm missing it...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
11. I say change them like that because it makes NO sense that Tactical Marines don't get two special weapons at 10 dudes, and Assault Marines get two special weapons no matter what. Let them have access to Pistol variants for the price I gave, keep the Chainsword profile I gave, and suddenly those Tactical Marines, Assault Marines, and Biker Marines play VERY differently. Most of all, it would be fun.

I can get on board with the Tacticals getting 1x Special Weapon per 5 Models, but I'd be wary of altering the Assault Marines like that. Jump Packs + 2x Meltaguns or something along this lines? That's pretty damn powerful.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
13. Terminator Armor increasing strength makes sense, but not in a D6 game. We need to keep Terminators and Centurions distinct from each other, with Centurions being what you want out of Terminators (super durable and slow moving with minor offensive output) and what I imagine them to be (a quick strike out of nowhere that should cripple a squad that turn or the next, for Assault Terminators at least!).

If you disagree with me about them needing more durability, then I ask you this: What's the point of Terminator Armour? Because from a fluff stand-point, they make you bigger, tougher to kill, and possibly slower (depending on the Marine). From a tabletop standpoint, I don't think the 2+ Armour Save and the 5+ Invulnerable Save quite do the whole durability think justiice.

1. Then you live near an area where nobody is competitive and taking the Storm Bolter is a-ok. However, actually looking at the darned thing, there's no reason to take it. If you were to do a poll here and ask if the profile of the Storm Bolter is okay, chances are you'll get mostly negative responses. Hell, the Heavy Stubber at BS3 is still doing more!
2. The Black Templars are about that honor garbage, so being mildly better at challenges was something that made sense.
3. Yet the ITC ruled that the Machine Empathy rule gets extended to other vehicles. It's kinda something that should have refinement.
4. I have to ask: WHO is buying the Storm Bolters? If you think they're an okay weapon, I have no clue what to tell you. Pretty much every poster agrees they need a buff. What that buff ends up being will differ, though. I dislike the AP4 idea as that's an advantage largely ignored by cover. Might as well just increase the strength a minor amount.
5. Good, you agree on Helbrecht. Moving on.
6. What's the true core issue with Terminators though? Durability or damage output? They're not the most durable unit for the points, but nobody will argue for them putting out decent damage for the cost. Nobody.
7. Praetorians in the Decurion have T5 3+/4+++. They're two attacks base, and have two options of loadouts. Either they're all taking a AP2 Melee weapon with a S5 AP2 shooting attack, or a S6 Pistol with an AP4 Rending attack melee weapon. They're pretty awesome.
8. Grav Weapons could use minor rebalancing, but a lot of the suggestions are simply outright destroying them instead of fixing them. In the meantime, until there's a middle ground found, making Grav Centurions mildly more expensive helps alleviate the issue.
Regarding Whirlwinds, why are you opposed to the 5 point discount? It certainly makes them look more attractive.
9. The problem is that nobody takes them outside the strangeness that is your area. Mathematically they're straight garbage. On top of that, it makes PAGK's less crappy. Fixing the Psycannon would help them too, but that's a different codex. More importantly, it helps fix Terminators without drastically altering their profile.
10. Which then brings up the question that, if Assault Marines can take Special Weapons, why would I want Tactical Marines? The alteration presented makes each choice (Assault, Tactical, and Biker) play radically differently. That's a good thing.
11. I think of Terminator Armor being harder to penetrate and enabling Deep Strike. If we keep adjusting the toughness of the Terminator, not only would we be stuck with a unit that's still gak offensively, but we'd have to find a way to compensate the Centurion for those of us that want to use them.

The purpose of grav should be to power through tough multi-wound monstrous creatures.  The problem is that it accomplishes this by having lots of shots which makes it murder against armored infantry too.

This could be solved by reducing the number of shots and just make it cause extra wounds after wound allocation depending on whether those wounds have been allocated to its preferred target class.  Something like:

If a Monstrous Creature or model with the Bulky, Extra Bulky, or Extremely Bulky special rule suffers an unsaved Wound from a weapon with the Graviton special rule, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds unless that Wound has the Instant Death special rule.  Models with the Swarms special rule gain Feel No Pain (2+) against Wounds from Graviton weapons.

Grav-gun 18" S* AP2 Assault 1, Blast, Strikedown, Graviton
Grav-cannon 24" S* AP2 Assault 1, Blast, Strikedown, Graviton

Pts decreases for both. Now they're like a regular heavy weapons again.

Storm bolters could be improved by adding Sternguard special ammo to the Armoury. Now you have a reason for 24" Assault 2.

Alternatively (or additionally) you could expand the Rapid Fire rules.

Rapid Fire X = X shots to full range, X+1 to half range

Boltgun 24" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire 1
Storm Bolter 24" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire 2
Heavy Bolter 36" S5 AP4 Heavy 3

The problem with the heavy bolter isn't that its stats are inappropriate. It's that it's an optional upgrade. Make it free. The opportunity cost of not taking a different heavy weapon is already enough. Now you have something to give your budget Tactical and Devastator Squads if you just can't scrounge up enough pts for a heavy and now a lucky bolter marine has a little extra kick.

Terminators need a Terminator Doctrine:

Terminator Doctrine: Affected models can re-roll To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 in the Shooting and Assault Phases of this turn.  Affected models in Terminator Squads and Terminator Assault Squads, including any affected models with the Independent Character special rule that have joined those squads, can instead re-roll all failed To Hit and To Wound rolls in the Shooting and Assault Phases of this turn.

Granted by:
Can use once if your army contains at least 1 Terminator Squad, Terminator Assault Squad, Cataphractii Terminator Squad, Vanguard Veteran Squad or Sternguard Veteran Squad; affects all Terminator Squads, Terminator Assault Squads, Cataphractii Terminator Squads, Vanguard Veteran Squads, and Sternguard Veteran Squads when used.

Additional use granted if your army has at least 1 1st Company Task Force; affects all 1st Company Task Forces when used.

2 additional uses granted if your army has at least 1 Strike Force Ultra; affects all Strike Force Ultras when used.

Also, Command Squads should have the option to take jump packs.

Make weapons that should murder MCs actually murder MCs and then we don't need grav at all.

Martel732 wrote:
Make weapons that should have a chance to murder MCs actually have a chance at murdering MCs and then we don't need grav at all.

Fixed that for you. Nothing should be for certain, everything needs to have a chance to survive.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Then you live near an area where nobody is competitive and taking the Storm Bolter is a-ok. However, actually looking at the darned thing, there's no reason to take it. If you were to do a poll here and ask if the profile of the Storm Bolter is okay, chances are you'll get mostly negative responses. Hell, the Heavy Stubber at BS3 is still doing more!

9. The problem is that nobody takes them outside the strangeness that is your area. Mathematically they're straight garbage. On top of that, it makes PAGK's less crappy. Fixing the Psycannon would help them too, but that's a different codex. More importantly, it helps fix Terminators without drastically altering their profile.

Oh there are people in my area who play competitively (both in terms of how they play and in tournaments) who do run Storm Bolters. This doesn't make my area strange, it just means that people can make them work in a competitive list.

Mathematically, they're not garbage, but a better option would be nice (whether it's a buff to Storm Bolters or a better alternative doesn't matter to me).

Also, if you buff Storm Bolters, you have to consider every case of other versions of the weapon (not that there are many). For example, if you buff Storm Bolters, what buff are you going to make to Dorn's Arrow? Also, you have to consider Heavy Bolters because, depending on what changes are made, the buffs you make may cause Storm Bolters to encroach on Heavy Bolter territory.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
4. I have to ask: WHO is buying the Storm Bolters? If you think they're an okay weapon, I have no clue what to tell you. Pretty much every poster agrees they need a buff. What that buff ends up being will differ, though. I dislike the AP4 idea as that's an advantage largely ignored by cover. Might as well just increase the strength a minor amount.

I think they're an OK weapon. Are they a good weapon? Probably not. Do they need a buff? That's arguable. Are they usable in games? Definitely.

Also, I'd bee keen to actually see this poll be posted. I expect you are right, but there must be some people that agree with me.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2. The Black Templars are about that honor garbage, so being mildly better at challenges was something that made sense.

The most common way to allow for this is to give them extra attacks. I tend to agree with this as long as it doesn't go over the top. Giving Rending to a model rather than a weapon doesn't seem like the right way to go.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
6. What's the true core issue with Terminators though? Durability or damage output? They're not the most durable unit for the points, but nobody will argue for them putting out decent damage for the cost. Nobody.
7. Praetorians in the Decurion have T5 3+/4+++. They're two attacks base, and have two options of loadouts. Either they're all taking a AP2 Melee weapon with a S5 AP2 shooting attack, or a S6 Pistol with an AP4 Rending attack melee weapon. They're pretty awesome.
10. Which then brings up the question that, if Assault Marines can take Special Weapons, why would I want Tactical Marines? The alteration presented makes each choice (Assault, Tactical, and Biker) play radically differently. That's a good thing.
11. I think of Terminator Armor being harder to penetrate and enabling Deep Strike. If we keep adjusting the toughness of the Terminator, not only would we be stuck with a unit that's still gak offensively, but we'd have to find a way to compensate the Centurion for those of us that want to use them.

I'm not arguing on whether or not they need more fire power, because they do. My point is that models in Terminator Armour need a bit more durability then they have. I think 2 Wounds instead of one needs to happen without a doubt. An increase in Toughness (e.g. a +1 modifier) is also in order, I think. Anything else may be overkill, but not ridiculous.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
8. Grav Weapons could use minor rebalancing, but a lot of the suggestions are simply outright destroying them instead of fixing them. In the meantime, until there's a middle ground found, making Grav Centurions mildly more expensive helps alleviate the issue. Regarding Whirlwinds, why are you opposed to the 5 point discount? It certainly makes them look more attractive.

Grav Weapons definitely need something. Whether that's a re-work or a simple re-balancing is something I'm no expert on.

As for Whirlwinds, I'm not necessarily against it as much as I simply don't see the need for it.

Sorry, there's no way people attending tournaments are purposely buying Storm Bolters. You're either lying or have no clue what competitive 40k looks like.

For the record, buffing the Storm Bolter is just fine without having to touch the Bolter relics everyone has, as those usually have neat little rules to make up for the S4.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sorry, there's no way people attending tournaments are purposely buying Storm Bolters. You're either lying or have no clue what competitive 40k looks like.

Rule #1, mate. Please remember that. I'm no liar, and I have seen competitive play which has purposefully involved Storm Bolters. As for tournaments, I really can't say since the only tournaments I've attended have been held at and run by my FLGS.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
For the record, buffing the Storm Bolter is just fine without having to touch the Bolter relics everyone has, as those usually have neat little rules to make up for the S4.

And I'm not necessarily saying you have to change them, but if you're buffing and/or changing normal Storm Bolters, buffing and/or changing their unique sister weapons as well as Heavy Bolters is at least worth considering.

On the topic of Terminators, I think W2 XOR T5 probably is in order (and also for SW, BA, DA, GK and Chaos folks in TDA, and maybe TDA-armored Inquisitors too - well, T4 vice T5 for them)

W2 helps not a bit against IA Riptides, but I've gone on record multiple times as saying that the IA needs to be replaced with the cyclic ion raker plus an AP2 nova profile anyway, so that's all I'll say on that. W2 does make the plasma/melta/grav decision a little harder, since meltas would one-shot a T4/W2 Termie. It does help them weather AP2 and Rending weapons better in general, though, and given the numbers Terminators usually come in, it's not that much more awkward than wound-counting on Khorne Dogs and Crisis Suits anyway.

T5 doesn't really help Terminators stand up to the usual anti-TEQ suspects - though it would let IH termies use FNP against meltas and lascannons - but it does let them stand up to bolters, gauss weapons, scatter lasers, etc better.

However, I agree that the big problem that Tactical Terminators have is that they don't hit hard enough. Martel's suggestion of having more heavy weapons helps, and I suggested replacing their storm bolters with heavy bolters at one point, too. Giving them special issue ammo is a possibility too.

jade_angel wrote:
On the topic of Terminators, I think W2 XOR T5 probably is in order (and also for SW, BA, DA, GK and Chaos folks in TDA, and maybe TDA-armored Inquisitors too - well, T4 vice T5 for them)

W2 helps not a bit against IA Riptides, but I've gone on record multiple times as saying that the IA needs to be replaced with the cyclic ion raker plus an AP2 nova profile anyway, so that's all I'll say on that. W2 does make the plasma/melta/grav decision a little harder, since meltas would one-shot a T4/W2 Termie. It does help them weather AP2 and Rending weapons better in general, though, and given the numbers Terminators usually come in, it's not that much more awkward than wound-counting on Khorne Dogs and Crisis Suits anyway.

T5 doesn't really help Terminators stand up to the usual anti-TEQ suspects - though it would let IH termies use FNP against meltas and lascannons - but it does let them stand up to bolters, gauss weapons, scatter lasers, etc better.

However, I agree that the big problem that Tactical Terminators have is that they don't hit hard enough. Martel's suggestion of having more heavy weapons helps, and I suggested replacing their storm bolters with heavy bolters at one point, too. Giving them special issue ammo is a possibility too.

To summarize, I think we can all agree that Terminators need a bit more fire power and the durability to let them survive long enough to lay said fire power down.

A T5/W2 Terminator will be survivable enough when combined with the other bonuses of Terminator Armour. T4 is too little. Period. As for the Heavy Bolter suggestion, I think that will only work if the Heavy Bolter became a Salvo weapon (e.g. Salvo 2/4 instead of Heavy 3).

Terminators are Relentless, though (or SnP for Cataphractii), so they could shoot heavy bolters on the move and still charge. Salvo 2/4 would be more useful to Tacticals and Devastators, but would be functionally equivalent to Assault 4 on Termies. Not that having four shots would be a bad thing, of course, though at 36" range, that does start to add up, especially if the Terminators are harder to kill.

I actually think that T5/W2 is too much - either T4/W2 or T5/W1 is probably right for Terminators, unless they're going to be a lot more expensive. Also, where does that leave Centurions, who are T5/W2 already? (And Paladins, but they can be fixed in other ways... W3 or T6?)

jade_angel wrote:
I actually think that T5/W2 is too much - either T4/W2 or T5/W1 is probably right for Terminators, unless they're going to be a lot more expensive. Also, where does that leave Centurions, who are T5/W2 already? (And Paladins, but they can be fixed in other ways... W3 or T6?)

Agreed, I think two Wounds at Toughness 4 would be plenty, given that Terminators are a lot more manoeuvrable than Centurions thanks to Deep Strike and Relentless.
I don't think Paladins should be buffed further, as I never thought they should have had higher Toughness and/or Wounds than Deathwing Command Squads etc. in the first place, they should probably just get a little cheaper instead, and/or maybe It Will Not Die at most for added durability.

 Haravikk wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
I actually think that T5/W2 is too much - either T4/W2 or T5/W1 is probably right for Terminators, unless they're going to be a lot more expensive. Also, where does that leave Centurions, who are T5/W2 already? (And Paladins, but they can be fixed in other ways... W3 or T6?)

Agreed, I think two Wounds at Toughness 4 would be plenty, given that Terminators are a lot more manoeuvrable than Centurions thanks to Deep Strike and Relentless.
I don't think Paladins should be buffed further, as I never thought they should have had higher Toughness and/or Wounds than Deathwing Command Squads etc. in the first place, they should probably just get a little cheaper instead, and/or maybe It Will Not Die at most for added durability.

Eh not so much more maneuverable since drop pods are a thing.

honestly also need to fix drop pods to ONLY allow space marines in tac armor to avoid a lot of the drop pod abuse.

T5 with 1 wound really wont help much since whatever was shooting at it was probably going to wound it on a 2 anyway (plasma)
personally would rather go with a fundamental rules change where invul saves can be taken after other failed saves. (ward save)
but that would be a pain.

but since t5 1 wound would help against regular dakka im ok with it.

would also like to fix jump packs and bikes. bikes shouldn't really give you +1 T. if anything it should give you a wound. jump packs could be cool if they could make a swipe at flying units.

 Desubot wrote:

 Haravikk wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
I actually think that T5/W2 is too much - either T4/W2 or T5/W1 is probably right for Terminators, unless they're going to be a lot more expensive. Also, where does that leave Centurions, who are T5/W2 already? (And Paladins, but they can be fixed in other ways... W3 or T6?)

Agreed, I think two Wounds at Toughness 4 would be plenty, given that Terminators are a lot more manoeuvrable than Centurions thanks to Deep Strike and Relentless.
I don't think Paladins should be buffed further, as I never thought they should have had higher Toughness and/or Wounds than Deathwing Command Squads etc. in the first place, they should probably just get a little cheaper instead, and/or maybe It Will Not Die at most for added durability.

Eh not so much more maneuverable since drop pods are a thing.

honestly also need to fix drop pods to ONLY allow space marines in tac armor to avoid a lot of the drop pod abuse.

Ah I forgot about that, yeah those needs fixed to make T4 W2 balance them out. If a Rhino can't take Bulky units then neither should a Drop Pod as it's full of harnesses that clearly won't take anything bigger, though allow Dreadnoughts of course since it's the only thing encourages me to keep taking them.

On which note; Dreadnoughts desperately need some changes. I'd say that taking a Power Fist should grant +1 Attack, with a further +1 for a second (on Ironclads etc.), I can understand a rifleman dread having only two from its stubby legs and swinging guns about, but a combat dread needs more. Dreadnought Missile Launcher should also be a Cyclone Missile Launcher, maybe with the option of firing single Flakk missiles, an option for Skyfire on a double auto cannon dread wouldn't go amiss either, allowing Dreadnoughts more flexibility. These would also need to carry over to Chaos, who have equally over-priced walkers.

 Desubot wrote:
would also like to fix jump packs and bikes. bikes shouldn't really give you +1 T. if anything it should give you a wound.

See I've never thought that the bikes should offer extra protection in the first place; while they have the front shield, it makes you a bigger target (not that size matters in 40k when you can miss an Imperial Knight as easily at point blank range as you would sniping a grot at the limit of your range), so only the speed should offer any protection, which is what Jink saves are for, i.e- they've got enough protection already, so I agree with ditching T5. They also shouldn't be unlockable as Troops as that just makes them a more obvious choice (why would you take tactical marines when you can take faster Toughness 5 bikes with built in guns, Relentless and Jink saves for not much more?)

Im fine with them being unlocked in certain situations. like in some kinda formation or khan.

same with jump packs which need WAY more love.

Dreads are a mess i agree though its St10 ap2 at initiative so not sure if i really want to give them more attacks.

Missiles also need a fix ALL around in all codexs. they should come with flakk and it needs a slight points drop.

"Drop Pods can't carry Terminators because they won't fit. A Dreadnought is fine though!"

What?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
"Drop Pods can't carry Terminators because they won't fit. A Dreadnought is fine though!"

What?

A dread also doesn't (for the most part) have squishy bits inside (or maybe they do)

a drop pod is designed for tactical marines to get harnessed in and then dropped from orbit. ( or have specific ones for dreads)

im not sure how centurion or terminator would get into those harnesses. if anything you could put them in but then they would be taking a decent fall damage from when it lands while they tumble around on the way down.

same for all those random IG, Storm troopers, admech, and so on. i know sisters had there own designed ones but these are designed for space marine in power armor. not squishy people, all of them would of broken there legs on impact.

Missiles do need a fix. IMHO, the way to do it for SM/IG is to do what was done with Eldar missiles: free Flakk. Now there's a reason to take them: sheer versatility. They're strictly inferior to lascannons for vehicle/MC busting, and other than Gets Hot, they're strictly inferior to plasma cannons for infantry busting. (Oh, and plasma cannons can blow up transports, too). They're arguably worse than heavy bolters for busting infantry, even.

Flakk missiles aren't exactly impressive, but if you take one weapon for 15 points, and you get something that can half-ass any role you'd care to have a heavy weapon for, that does count for something. Maybe even 10 points, since both frag and krak are unimpressive. You could possibly make the frag missile profile Assault 1 or Salvo 1/1 instead of Heavy 1, too - that would give the missile launcher a role that none of the other heavies, except the grav-cannon, have: shooting on the move. Also, someone might actually fire frag missiles in this case. Usually, it's better to fire krak at any infantry except tightly-bunched super-squishies where you're likely to get more than two hits from each frag missile. (After all, wounding on a 2+, ID and AP are not insignificant, even against Fire Warriors).

The only difference between IoM Flakk and CWE Flakk is that IoM Flakk isn't mandatory - you can choose to not pay for it. CWE also don't get it for free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(I do think Flakk should be 5ppm or free form IoM - and CWE doesn't need the correction. I just disagree with the argument presented.)