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 Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Going by current SoB pricing available, the main box will be $$65 on mini market or a similar site, the 4 alt heroes are $8 each on Flying Frog's main site ($32, possibly cheaper when released formally), the Ninja Clan compares to the Scafford Gang ($26 on mini market), and the spider lady will probably shake out around $20 on mini market. The cards retail for $10 each, but to me thats stupid expensive for 15 cards... and they sell them 3 for 2 on the website. So $30 assuming you value them at that. Current value of the pledge is about $175+ the exclusive Sumo if you buy stuff online, so we'll say $195. But you have to also pay shipping on this and can probably get free shipping elsewhere, so that reduces the value by another $10-$20 for US residents.

And, of course, if you're just a casual player, you don't need the less-bang-for-the-buck mini-expansions. If you wait for an eBay flash sale (there's one today until 9pm PST), you can knock off another $15 for a base set, as well as wait for used sets from gamers who don't want to assemble the game. Deep Madness and Mythic Battles are just throwing miniatures at their $100 backers. Hardcore backers should be satisfied at $300, and I think the KS campaign is really only going after this market. The KS should finish at $1M+, not a bad funding amount for FFP. With fewer backers and minimal add-ons, FFP will be able to fulfill this KS faster.

EDIT: Yeesh! -3K today.

While one can get the cards on a sale, they aren't at retail, so one is paying FFP's shipping on those if nothing else (regardless of what free shipping one might get on other stuff from CSI or another site).

Valuing the exclusive Sumo at $20 seems awfully low. Of course, not many people will pay "$Texas" for those figures, but even going by 'sold' listings on Ebay for the Outlaw, the prices can be pretty absurd.

Artificial scarcity, am I right?

Even just right now, 1.5 or 2 to 1 for backing early, along with exclusives that are absurd to get after the fact, shipping in at least 2 sections (and that assumes all of those end up at retail together), and potentially getting some content early (if not all of it, again assuming they do complete it in a single step).

I'm not saying people should bow and scrape before the Sumo tier, but as a starting level, but while it's a good idea for consumers to be aware of getting the best deals they can, we also need to recognize that not every campaign is a Bones or Zombicide or Kingdom Death. We're not always going to get 400 minis for $100.

If that means some people tap out and wait for better deals, that's cool, and totally understandable. But people asked 'omg, what about more stuff for the Sumo?' and they added a freebie enemy kit and people said "omg why more human enemies? Not enough! More value!"

They have said repeatedly that the first campaign's tiers were undervalued, and the Outlaw was an absurd deal. I can't help but hear (on the KS comments, not accusing anyone here of it) the demands for more and more basically to be looking for a repeat of a business model they admitted was a mistake.

There's roughly 700 sumos, and around 2000 shoguns.

Of course they want the Shogun to be the appealing tier. The effort to keep fulfillment reasonable means they need warm bodies, rather than existing backers bumping up their contribution to buy X, Y, and Z add ons, or they need existing backers to upgrade to the higher tier.

There were around 2700 Outlaws, so yeah, this campaign has a higher buy in and a reduced 'return on investment', but we knew that was going to be the case going in.

At this point I do wish they had run the campaign for 3 weeks instead of the whole month. Short of doubling the Sumo's contents, nothing is going to be enough for some people, so at least we'd probably end up in about the same place but knock a week off the incessant complaining that "this isn't as good a deal as X other campaign!"

Well said!

I think the 'value' is still there at Sumo and especially at Shogun, and I do hope that we get to at least the $1M mark.

I'm also still shocked at the backpedaling here.

Maybe starting this one before completely fulfilling the last one was actually as bad a move as some (many?) think?

Another thing to consider which I can now personally speak to... FFP's webstore seems to constantly sell out of many of their exclusives, without firm restock dates. So yes, I cleaned up on card packs during the Halloween sale, but five of the seven, currently webstore exclusive (for now) hero classes, sold out before I could get them.

Going in at Shogun seems to have, as a result, some added implicit value for me as well.

Same here for me - I'm willing to take a slight hit on what I *might* be able to pay for some of these things later vs. the savings I'll still get now plus the added convenience of them being shipped to me without much further action required other than this KS campaign!

And, honestly, at $800k, Shogun already well passes online discounter prices, even accounting for the gender-alts... so unless you need the money now, and know you'll be buying all the content, there is absolutely no reason not to back.

They just added another Exclusive Hero Class to both tiers.

Of course, it took like 2 minutes before people started gaking over it, but that is "value" added to everyone's pledge, for free.

Are you saying there were negative comments about the hero?

I can understand that you can get the expansion cheaper retail, although MM and CSI are sold out.

Everyone in the update comments seems happy about it but I saw several people complaining in the main comments that there were too many exclusives (usually people moan that here are not enough exclusives..)

ced1106 wrote:
Are you saying there were negative comments about the hero?

I've seen t least one person complaining that this is a "kick in the teeth" for original backers who bought the Trederra expansion as they now need to pay $100 to finish Treddera as a world *face/palm*

Gotcha. Well, whatever.

Might pull out myself. BGG supporters keep saying how much "value" there is and are defensive about FFP's practices. Not a good sign.

Something's not something you'd pay cash for just because there's an MSRP on it. If someone brings up something that might be an issue... it's an issue. (That was my gripe about the election, but, oh, well.)

Anyway, another social media freebie for FF. Only 300 more Likes to hit the SG. https://www.facebook.com/FFPgames/

Yeah, they had.. $620k ish when I said I thought this had another $150k in it, and I believe that is still going to be the case. If this isn't your first project and you offer less, you will get less. As long as FFP are happy with that trade off and ~770k then good for them. But I don't think anyone - especially FFP - should be surprised if this doesn't do as well as the first KS.

It is at $690K now, with 16 days left to go. I still think it will finish closer to $1M than to $770K!

There's certainly enough 'value' here, and there will be more to come - and it is a great, fun game already.

I'm a bit puzzled by the 2 steps forward, 1 step back phase it is currently in though.

"Perceived Value" vs. Last Campaign maybe?

Gives me flashbacks to Mars Attacks, when Mantic just could not get it over a hump in funding.

They threw so much stuff at backers in an attempt to get things moving again. Feels similar here.

This has been one bizarre struggle.

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm a bit puzzled by the 2 steps forward, 1 step back phase it is currently in though.

"Perceived Value" vs. Last Campaign maybe?

Which, as we've been over, was never going to be the same, FFP said it wouldn't be the same because it wasn't sustainable, and has said recently in comments that it wouldn't be the same. All I keep hearing is 'omg repeat the business practices that you have explicitly said were a mistake!'

Anyone backing and then pulling their funds because 'it's not the same value as an Outlaw or Mine Cart' isn't paying attention, is willfully ignoring them, or trolling. Or ignorant how Kickstarter works I suppose, but we don't have a lot of brand new fresh blood in this one (out of nearly 2,900 backers, just over 100 have never done a KS before).

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Gives me flashbacks to Mars Attacks, when Mantic just could not get it over a hump in funding.

They threw so much stuff at backers in an attempt to get things moving again. Feels similar here.

This has been one bizarre struggle.

I mean, what else are they going to do? "Feth off, donkey caves, either it's a good enough deal or it isn't, stop gakking all over our comments"?

I do hope that this is all lined up in contingency plans/funds and that the work we've seen is indicative that it was part of the plan all along (or minor modifications to the existing plan).

I really hope they aren't screwing with their margins or timeline because some people are taking 'entitled' to a whole new level.

 Forar wrote:
I really hope they aren't screwing with their margins or timeline because some people are taking 'entitled' to a whole new level.

Nah I doubt it. I'm pretty confident that FFP went into this with a much tighter grip on the reigns and the knowledge that they wouldn't make as much as last time as a result. So this won't be the spectacle the first one was and of course people will moan about that, but it is what it is. If you back this one, there will probably* be fewer** problems, will be shipped closer*** to the original target and might**** even be shipped in the expected number of waves.

...maybe.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:

They threw so much stuff at backers in an attempt to get things moving again. Feels similar here.

I'm not really seeing that here from them this time.

And that's probably part of the 'problem' for some?

It feels adequately restrained and/or 'on budget' for FFP this time around.

It could also be that the setting itself isn't necessarily as popular as Weird Wild West?

Although I'm probably wrong there - and even if that's the case, the whole thing makes for a great Otherworld all of its own!

 Alpharius wrote:

"Perceived Value" vs. Last Campaign maybe?

Its more perceived value vs other concurrent kickstarters. Opportunity cost and all. Its competing for my November bucks against Pantheon, Deep Madness and Black Friday sales. The cards expansions are overpriced IMO, so they can claim their retail value all they want, but I'm sure others don't see 10 new gear cards as adding $10 value either.

It's not a bad deal, its just that there seem to be better deals, and the bill is coming due at pretty much the worst part of the year. If this was in May I'd be in Shogun no questions asked. If they let us pledge a buck and then upgrade later, same deal.

Yeah, I'll agree the timing on this one isn't ideal, especially with no "Pledge $1 now, upgrade to whatever in the PM" option.

Still, this is one of my personal 'core games' now, so I'm in - now just have to find the hobby funds somewhere in the next 2 weeks!

From the latest update, some add-ons:

More New Add-Ons

Besides the OtherWorld: Caverns of Cynder Expansion, we have also just added some exciting new items to the Add-ons Menu! First up, something that Brimstone Fans have been asking about since day one, a Set of Plastic Doorways for Forbidden Fortress and the Belly of the Beast!


While chatting with backers this morning, we had requests for extra Peril Dice to be made available in the Add-Ons section. The Forbidden Fortress Core Set contains one of these beautiful custom dice, but some players find that they would like extra dice to have around the game table. We have never had extra Peril Dice available before, so they are sure to be a hit with original Shadows of Brimstone backers, too!


Backers have also requested the ability to purchase extra copies of the XL-Sized Jorogumo Spider Queen. We listened and have added both of these requested items to the Add-Ons Menu!

For me, the extended delays and still not having everything from the first campaign that I paid for years ago is making me reconsider backing. NOT that I don't see value or love the game. I do, very much so. However, aside from the exclusives, I can buy items when they hit retail and likely at a better price than they are asking for in the KS. And likely before backers get them if their first KS is any indicator.

Plus, the way they've enhanced and added to the expansions of the first KS, requiring backers to buy more to get the additional content, is a pain in the ass to me. I don't mind paying for it, I just hate having to keep track of what I have, what was changed and what I'm missing. I don't need my fun time to be a chore. The game is already wonderfully cumbersome enough without me having to do bookkeeping.

Didn' the prior door set help justify its price by doubling as a card pack? I believe the retail doors come with some loot, or perhaps artifact cards?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Myrthe... The only retroactive additions which clearly derive from previous themes are the Tredera Hero, and the new Cynder enemies... both of which are freebies. The rest is clearly themed.

So there really wouldn't be anything here that you already have.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Didn' the prior door set help justify its price by doubling as a card pack? I believe the retail doors come with some loot, or perhaps artifact cards?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Myrthe... The only retroactive additions which clearly derive from previous themes are the Tredera Hero, and the new Cynder enemies... both of which are freebies. The rest is clearly themed.

So there really wouldn't be anything here that you already have.

I think he's referring to things like the Colonel Scafford which backers had to buy separately but was included in the retail release of the Scafford gang. There may be other items as well, but I recall being annoyed I had to add him in during a limited window or buy an entire extra Scafford gang set to get him.

I believe Myrthe was referring to the first Kickstarter. They have been adding new enemy types to the KS1 Stretch Goal / addon Deluxe expansions. So KS1 backers will have to add more funds in the pledge manager to get the complete expansion.

This shouldn't be an issue with this Kickstarter, just when they launched the first one they hadn't really worked out their expansion packaging model and they got it wrong.

Yeah I was lucky enough to find a backer on BGG who would let me add on a Minecart to his pledge since FFP decided to not to let $1 backers into the PM. I have nooooo fricking clue what I need to add on to my pledge to turn "some models in a baggie" into the boxed expansions.

From the sounds of it, FFP will make it very clear in the updated wave 2 pledge manager what you need to get to finish each expansion. Not too hard at all from an IT perspective.

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Its competing for my November bucks against Pantheon, Deep Madness and Black Friday sales

I think this summarizes how the campaign has been going:

This KS is classic monopolistic competition. For some, they see it as competing against other KS with miniatures. This is the competitive side of the product. For others, they don't see other non-FF purchases as alternatives. This is the monopolistic side.

The competitive side doesn't see value because other KS offer more miniatures (including FFP with their first SoB KS), because FFP was not able to deliver on their previous KS, or because they don't want to pay mini-expansions prices at all, even when discounted.

The monopolistic side sees value because the products offered in this FF KS are at a better price and more convenient offering than buying the products retail or on the website (which may be out of stock on some items). They will buy the mini-expansions and are looking for the best prices for them, even if though these prices do not appeal to the competitive side.

Both sides are correct. The monopolistic side backs the campaign, because they see value compared to FFP retail prices. The competitive side does not back, because other miniature KS provide more miniatures or other reasons.

 Alpharius wrote:
Yeah, I'll agree the timing on this one isn't ideal, especially with no "Pledge $1 now, upgrade to whatever in the PM" option.

I'm going to take a somewhat combative tone here, but the "pledge $1, get access to the PM" thing is losing its appeal for me. It is literally an option to pay the absolute minimum, ride on the coattails of backers who are willing to front $100-450+, and then get all the rewards they desire without helping at all to better them for the whole backer community.

They've said that the upgrades may not be at the KS price, and that will mean further whining over having to pay that extra $X, whatever it might be. If the PM goes live a few weeks after they get the funding, that'd be one thing, but the issue with KS1 was that the PM opened a year after the campaign ended (give or take), so people were 'salty' that they couldn't reap those rewards despite not having any 'skin in the game' for the previous year.

However it plays out, I think that's part of it; they're sensitive to how that went down. $25 for an art print to get a foot in the door is pretty reasonable, because frankly at that point they might as well add the $75 for the core and exclusives and goodies the Sumo gets. It's a raised 'you must be this tall to ride' bar, but not unreachable.

btw, FYI, if people want to get peril dice added to wave 2, you can ask FFP about it. I don't think this is a big secret, I asked them and they said they would. Charged me $3 per die, so I only got a couple. "omg that's 50 cents more per die than this deal!' Yeah, and as a "someone has to go find my box and toss a handful of them in there" fee, I consider that a fair trade.

ced1106 wrote:
Both sides are correct. The monopolistic side backs the campaign, because they see value compared to FFP retail prices. The competitive side does not back, because other miniature KS provide more miniatures or other reasons.

And some of the friction we're seeing is the incessant whining on the KS comments of some 'competitive side' folks who apparently desperately want FFP to cater to their need to get under "$X per figure" to maintain some measure of 'value'. At this point I kind of want them to toss like 48 rats in as a stretch goal. There, bam, we just added like 1/3 to the sumo's figure count, how's your quantity over quality calculation doing now?

I don't think its that big a deal, or anything to get too upset about.

It is a nice option to offer, if they can offer it.

If not, no big deal. If I can't afford it 'now', then I won't buy it 'now' - and possibly not 'later' either.

Risks on both sides there, I guess!

I think it kind of ties back to a few of the $1 backers who got rather abrasive during the last campaign when they were told they couldn't snag a big pile of tiers a year after the money was originally collected.

They've said that upgrading will be more expensive in the PM, though not by how much, so that's a gamble of a sort, but if we look back on the increased prices in the first campaign's PM (Mine Cart, and later for the heightened shipping that had similar 'political' considerations) it'll probably be... what, substantial but not horrifying? From what they've said, right now it's basically set up as a bit of a gamble on both sides; we should be getting a good deal, and their costs are estimated. I'm guessing the PM will be in a bit, because part of what they've said or alluded to is that when the PM lands and people can upgrade, the uncertainty will be gone, they should know what some of those variables actually are, and that cost will get passed over (like if $300 is reasonable on a Shogun, but after all the numbers are crunched they really should've been looking at 325 or 350...). Not as a threat, of course, more of a 'this is the deal time, the PM will be after the cold hard truths have been seen', or that's my interpretation at least.

I suppose it also depends on when they do the PM. If it's 6 or 12 months out, that's one thing, if it's 2-4 weeks after the campaign ends, that's another (Dwarven Forge does this, and means that basically I have to be ready on what I'm going to pledge for and that's it, none of this 'oh, I'll just add another $X00 in the PM; Amazon collects the money and then DF gets the final tally rolling a few weeks later).

They may not have an exact date in mind, but it'd be nice if someone ran that by them the next time a Frog is in the comments. Even a vague idea (this year? Q1 next year? Q2? Etc)

I'm in for Shogun, so I haven't really been paying attention to what FFP have said they would/would not allow in terms of PM 'upgrades'.

I think we know that "$1 Now, Upgrade Later" is out - so what is the confirmed minimum upgrade level?