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Well with the release of numarines, stats for krak grenades! (S6, AP-1, Dd3). With those stats it is not farfetched to assume most S6-8 weapons getting D3 damage!

So scatterlasser might be S6, AP-, Dd3!!!

 Galef wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

So there you have it. I think that the reduced effectiveness of poor AP, single wound weapons against vehicles means that scatter bikes won't actually need restricting at all. The rules changes means they are roughly 6 times less effective at killing medium armour than they were in 7th. My guess is that they won't be much use for shooting at anything heavier than buggies and speeders.

^^^This guy gets it.

Scatterbikes were OP in 7th because of their effectiveness. One can argue all day that Troops should not have access to so many weapon options, but really that's an Imperium point of view.

...not really. IG can take gobs of heavy weapons on each Troops FoC slot, up to 21, not counting transports (which raises this to a potential of 45 heavy weapons) or special weapons. Meanwhile Necrons dont have access to Heavy Weapons at all in Troops.

The issue wasn't just the heavy weapons, it was the volume of heavy weapons being wayyyy too effective against literally anything that wasnt AV13 or better, at low cost, excellent range, good survivability, and absolutely unmatched mobility.

But Scatter laser spam in 7th was effective for several reasons: range, speed of the platform, and stripping HPs.

We can't ignore their effectiveness againdt infantry. HP's were not the only thing wrong with scatter laser jetbike. Being able to kill 7-8 marines or 22 Orks, reliably, from across the board, with a Troops unit costing only a couple upgrades more than a kitted Tac squad, was an issue, a big one.

While the Scatterlaser will be less effective against some targets, particularly vehicles, it will remain exceedingly powerful against infantry, and unless there are other changes, will remain just as mobile, long ranged, and resilient, meaning that unless they become notably more expensive, they're likely to still be something an issue. Perhaps not as big of one, but enough that they will still be a concern.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

So there you have it. I think that the reduced effectiveness of poor AP, single wound weapons against vehicles means that scatter bikes won't actually need restricting at all. The rules changes means they are roughly 6 times less effective at killing medium armour than they were in 7th. My guess is that they won't be much use for shooting at anything heavier than buggies and speeders.

^^^This guy gets it.

Scatterbikes were OP in 7th because of their effectiveness. One can argue all day that Troops should not have access to so many weapon options, but really that's an Imperium point of view.

...not really. IG can take gobs of heavy weapons on each Troops FoC slot, up to 21, not counting transports (which raises this to a potential of 45 heavy weapons) or special weapons. Meanwhile Necrons dont have access to Heavy Weapons at all in Troops.

The issue wasn't just the heavy weapons, it was the volume of heavy weapons being wayyyy too effective against literally anything that wasnt AV13 or better, at low cost, excellent range, good survivability, and absolutely unmatched mobility.

But Scatter laser spam in 7th was effective for several reasons: range, speed of the platform, and stripping HPs.

We can't ignore their effectiveness againdt infantry. HP's were not the only thing wrong with scatter laser jetbike. Being able to kill 7-8 marines or 22 Orks, reliably, from across the board, with a Troops unit costing only a couple upgrades more than a kitted Tac squad, was an issue, a big one.

While the Scatterlaser will be less effective against some targets, particularly vehicles, it will remain exceedingly powerful against infantry, and unless there are other changes, will remain just as mobile, long ranged, and resilient, meaning that unless they become notably more expensive, they're likely to still be something an issue. Perhaps not as big of one, but enough that they will still be a concern.

7-8 marines over the course of a game sure, but you are looking at 12 shots, 7.92 hits, 6.57 wounds, after armor saves 2.17 downed marines.

the real issue was then stripping out hull points on expensive vehicles. units and being able to get to any armor facing they wanted and then jumping behind LOS cover once done from halfway across the field.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

7-8 marines over the course of a game sure, but you are looking at 12 shots, 7.92 hits, 6.57 wounds, after armor saves 2.17 downed marines.

the real issue was then stripping out hull points on expensive vehicles. units and being able to get to any armor facing they wanted and then jumping behind LOS cover once done from halfway across the field.

100% agree. If it takes 3 Scatterbikes to take out only 2 marines a turn, you can hardly say their damage output was the problem. .
Now that they are likely only hitting on 4+ and wounding on 3+, their damage output is almost halved.

It was the speed and ability to hide that made them a problem
Taking away the JSJ, ridiculous Turbo-boost and making Scatter lasers only 24" range (as Martel suggests) would instantly make them a balanced choice. Further giving them only a 4+ armour is just icing on the cake.

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 Vaktathi wrote:
...not really. IG can take gobs of heavy weapons on each Troops FoC slot, up to 21, not counting transports (which raises this to a potential of 45 heavy weapons) or special weapons.

And its unknown if that will happening in the new edition. We may see Heavy Weapon Squads being collated in to Heavy Weapon Platoons again, while the only Heavy Weapon Teams in Troops will be in Infantry Squads.

I honestly don't know how they are going to run Platoons with the current datasheet setup or the new one. It will be interesting to see.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Meanwhile Necrons dont have access to Heavy Weapons at all in Troops.

Technically not needed due to the existence of Gauss and Tesla. Now if they actually worked better than advertised.

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So....Twin-linked is double shots....so Windriders even without an upgrade are likely to have 4 shots each.....that can wound any target.
If those shots end up being AP -1 (which I think is likely) and Windriders have a Move stat more than 12" (again, likely) then even un-upgraded Windriders are a decent unit.

Good times.

50 pts a model and I'm good.

We don't have any idea how points actually work in 8th. 50 points might be the new basic unarmed guardsman price for all the information we have on the matter.
Personally I'd rather see the Wraithknight hit by the nerf bat or the cease to exist bat but seeing the scatt bikes less useful against the Average Marine makes me happy.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So....Twin-linked is double shots....so Windriders even without an upgrade are likely to have 4 shots each.....that can wound any target.
If those shots end up being AP -1 (which I think is likely) and Windriders have a Move stat more than 12" (again, likely) then even un-upgraded Windriders are a decent unit.

Good times.

50 pts a model and I'm good.

We don't have any idea how points actually work in 8th. 50 points might be the new basic unarmed guardsman price for all the information we have on the matter.
Personally I'd rather see the Wraithknight hit by the nerf bat or the cease to exist bat but seeing the scatt bikes less useful against the Average Marine makes me happy.

Actually, we know a tactical marine is 13pts.
Point costs will therefore be somewhat similar (so when GW talks about 2K games that take 2h, it should be close to current 2K games in terms of number of models).

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
We don't have any idea how points actually work in 8th. 50 points might be the new basic unarmed guardsman price for all the information we have on the matter.
Personally I'd rather see the Wraithknight hit by the nerf bat or the cease to exist bat but seeing the scatt bikes less useful against the Average Marine makes me happy.

Riiiiiiiight. GW sure is going to be stupid enough to make IG trooper almost 4x price of tac marine or alternatively make IG troopers almost 4x worth space marine?

Sheesh. Sure. And shotguns might shoot S10 AP-6 3d6 damage bolts for all we know!

 Galef wrote:
whether Jink exists in 8th or if moving fast (Advancing) grants a +1 armour similar to how turbo-boosting granted cover bonuses in prior editions, this would FINALLY be a good representation of how "Eldar rely on speed for durability"
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Jink, or something similar is quite likely to go from being a universal ability for bikes to being a rule applied to specific units (Ravenwing bikers, but not ordinary marine bikes, for example. or Saim-Hann jetbikes but not those of other craftworlds).

Tautastic wrote:
Well with the release of numarines, stats for krak grenades! (S6, AP-1, Dd3). With those stats it is not farfetched to assume most S6-8 weapons getting D3 damage!

So scatterlasser might be S6, AP-, Dd3!!!

Extremely unlikely. A Lascannon (the Imperium's standard anti-tank weapon) only does D3 damage, I cannot see a rapid-fire anti-infantry weapon doing the same amount of damage per hit as that. We know heavy bolters do 1 damage and I expect most anti-infantry weapons will be the same. We may get some oddball cases of multiple damage on low strength weapons but I doubt anything smaller than a krak grenad/missile will be doing multiple damage in general. Remember krak grenades are specifically designed to give infantry a means to damage tanks.

 Karhedron wrote:

Tautastic wrote:
Well with the release of numarines, stats for krak grenades! (S6, AP-1, Dd3). With those stats it is not farfetched to assume most S6-8 weapons getting D3 damage!

So scatterlasser might be S6, AP-, Dd3!!!

Extremely unlikely. A Lascannon (the Imperium's standard anti-tank weapon) only does D3 damage, I cannot see a rapid-fire anti-infantry weapon doing the same amount of damage per hit as that. We know heavy bolters do 1 damage and I expect most anti-infantry weapons will be the same. We may get some oddball cases of multiple damage on low strength weapons but I doubt anything smaller than a krak grenad/missile will be doing multiple damage in general. Remember krak grenades are specifically designed to give infantry a means to damage tanks.

d6. And the tau missile pod is also d3 and that was in 7th ed S7 medium vehicle killer.

Though yeah unlikely. And doubtful they would go for d2 either.

I highly doubt Scatter lasers will be any more than Damage:1
What is more likely is that GW delves into the past and makes Scatter lasers D6 shots again like it was around Rogue Trader, although that would be odd considering this is the treatment for Blasts

That would make Scatterbikes even less likely to cause mass damage as the average number of shots from 3 bikes would only be 10. I could only see this happen if the Scatter laser becomes assault.


Slight topic change: with the T'au Faction focus, we know a keyword that Crisis suits have is "Fly" which allows them to still shoot as normal after falling back from melee.
I hate to say it, but I am almost positive Windriders, probably all Aeldari jetbikes, will have this keyword rule, essentially giving them a better version of 7E Hit & Run.
While this is fluffy, I cannot help fear what this does (and should do) to their points cost.

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 Galef wrote:
I highly doubt Scatter lasers will be any more than Damage:1
What is more likely is that GW delves into the past and makes Scatter lasers D6 shots again like it was around Rogue Trader, although that would be odd considering this is the treatment for Blasts

That would make Scatterbikes even less likely to cause mass damage as the average number of shots from 3 bikes would only be 10. I could only see this happen if the Scatter laser becomes assault.


Slight topic change: with the T'au Faction focus, we know a keyword that Crisis suits have is "Fly" which allows them to still shoot as normal after falling back from melee.
I hate to say it, but I am almost positive Windriders, probably all Aeldari jetbikes, will have this keyword rule, essentially giving them a better version of 7E Hit & Run.
While this is fluffy, I cannot help fear what this does (and should do) to their points cost.

-

It would make sense if the fly keyword was granted to every jetbike, skimmer, jetpack and jump infantry, and give them the ability to move over difficult/impassable terrain without penalties (maybe with a dangerous terrain test when starting/ending in difficult like in 7th).
I sure hope the T'au faction focus post was poorly written, and that the crisis' ability to fall back without penalty comes from a special ability different than the fly keyword, but it's mostly wishful thinking from my part.

Edit: the sniper drones also have the fly keyword (they were also jetpack in 7th), and there's no mention of them having the buffed H&R.

So the rules leaked.

The good:
-Windriders have only 4+ save...but 2 Wounds. It think this will be ok since SOOOOOO many weapon deal multiple damage and eve AP -1 weapons are a big threat
-20ppm, Shuricannon is +12ppm, Scatter laser is +15
-They 16".....and auto Advance 6"

The 'meh':
-They are Fast Attack now. If the structure for army building was the same as every prior edition, this would have INFURIATED me. However, there is a detachment that allows Fast Attacks to be your 'core' choice and gives command points just like the "traditional" detachment. So it's all good.
-Battle Focus allows models to shoot as if stationary, even if they Advanced (except with Heavy Weapons). So there is no reason for Windriders with Shuriken weapons to nor move a full 22" and shoot to full capacity.
I put this in the 'meh' category because it is both good and bad. There really is no reason to take Scatter lasers anymore. Shuricannon Bikes have about they same threat range, but will hurt more because of the AP -3 on 6s.

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So... ShuriCanBikes might be the new hotness, but still not as OP as Scatbikes?

I can live with that.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So... ShuriCanBikes might be the new hotness, but still not as OP as Scatbikes?

I can live with that.

I can too. I never liked having to take Scatter lasers. What is nice is that you may not even need to use Shuricannons.
Twin Catapults give you 4 shots and still wound up to T7 on a 5+, and now have a 34" threat range.
Since Shuricannons now only wound T4 on 3+, that's not much of a difference. Certainly not a 12ppm difference

The only advantage I can see in taking the Shuricannon is wounding T8+ on 5+ (instead of 6) and the extra range allowing the bike to stay out of range (since their JSJ is gone)

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