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 G00fySmiley wrote:
I doubt they will give open play the every one a heavy weapon option, I am betting on it being an option in the competitive rules. of course I have no proof of it being that way just an old man's hunch

Gotta agree with G00fy on this one; they'll probably make it only an option for competitive play, so that way they can smooth it out while still saying all your models are legal

Actually, I'll bet the Black Guardians will be the out for that one: troop Windriders will probably be limited to 1-in-3, or even only catapults, while Black Guardians will sit in an Elite or FA slot.

All your models are legal now. (Also, power-level-based narrative games may see some of the same problems as some units in AoS, where if you don't take every option they legally can, you're gimping yourself.)

 Yarium wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I doubt they will give open play the every one a heavy weapon option, I am betting on it being an option in the competitive rules. of course I have no proof of it being that way just an old man's hunch

Gotta agree with G00fy on this one; they'll probably make it only an option for competitive play, so that way they can smooth it out while still saying all your models are legal

I don't know, the Rubric Marine datasheet looks like that main template for the unit and that mathc play will just add points cost, but otherwise not alter which models can take what.

So if the Windrider datasheet shows 1 per 3, or all can take weapon upgrades, that is how you'll be able to build them in ANY form of play.
Something I find interesting it using both Power levels and Points cost at the same time may create a better balance

Using the Rubrics for example, in a 50 power lever game, you could be 2-3 units with whatever (legal) loadout you want. When you then apply points costs, though, those same Rubrics might be well more expensive than another units also valued at 50 power level. So that would force you to either drop models or options to meet BOTH the power level and points cost for even play.

maybe

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The box allows the option to upgrade all windriders to shuricannons or scatter lasers. I would bet strongly that the new Datasheet for them will allow every bike to carry one, just like they do currently.

The thing is that this will not necessarily make them as powerful as they are now. Relentless is going away meaning that they will probably have a -1 to hit when they move whereas twin-linked shuricats will now be getting 4 shots at normal BS.

Also, with tanks getting an armour save, Scatter lasers won't be anywhere near as good at stripping hull points anymore. Pus the fact that tanks have more wounds than they did hull points will make them even less effective.

Let's consider moving scatter bikes firing at a Dreadnought in 7th and 8th editions for a comparison since we have dreadnought stats. Let's also assume that the scatter laser is heavy 4, damage 1 and Ap0.

In 7th edition the bikes needed 3s to hit and 6s to glance so 27 shots were needed to kill a dreadnought by glancing off all 3 hull points. 3 bikes would normally take just over 2 rounds of firing to kill a dread (assuming front shots).

In 8th, the bikes will need 4s to hit, 5s to wound but then the Dread gets a 3+ save and has 8 wounds to chew through. Now it takes a whopping 144 scatter laser shots to kill a Dread on average. 3 Scatter bikes would take 12 rounds to kill a Dreadnought!

So there you have it. I think that the reduced effectiveness of poor AP, single wound weapons against vehicles means that scatter bikes won't actually need restricting at all. The rules changes means they are roughly 6 times less effective at killing medium armour than they were in 7th. My guess is that they won't be much use for shooting at anything heavier than buggies and speeders.

 Karhedron wrote:

So there you have it. I think that the reduced effectiveness of poor AP, single wound weapons against vehicles means that scatter bikes won't actually need restricting at all. The rules changes means they are roughly 6 times less effective at killing medium armour than they were in 7th. My guess is that they won't be much use for shooting at anything heavier than buggies and speeders.

^^^This guy gets it.

Scatterbikes were OP in 7th because of their effectiveness. One can argue all day that Troops should not have access to so many weapon options, but really that's an Imperium point of view.
But Scatter laser spam in 7th was effective for several reasons: range, speed of the platform, and stripping HPs.
The basic changes to the main rules we know so far are painting a clear picture that Scatterbikes will be much less effective. Like around 50% less effective against so many targets.

The will likely even be worse against their intended targets too, Infantry, due to cover adding +1 to armour saves. Marines in cover will have a 2+ save and only be wounded on 3+ by Scatters.
So yeah, Scatterbike spam will almost assuredly still be possible, but it isn't likely to be the competitive choice. And I like that.

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 Galef wrote:
...Scatterbikes were OP in 7th because of their effectiveness. One can argue all day that Troops should not have access to so many weapon options, but really that's an Imperium point of view...

So...Dark Eldar (one special weapon per five, one heavy weapon per ten on Warriors), Necrons (two S4 shots or one S5 shot is all you're getting out of Troops), Tyranids (one bio-cannon per three Warriors, nothing on the rest), Orks (one gun per ten Boyz), and non-Farsight Tau (the S5 spam is kind of borderline, but they're nothing like the anti-everything killing machine scatterbikes are) have joined the Imperium now?

I wouldn't mind current scatbikes if a scatlazer cost 25 pts. Not 10.

I would hope they sort the nonsense about them having a 3+ armour save for no good reason.

 Karhedron wrote:
The box allows the option to upgrade all windriders to shuricannons or scatter lasers. I would bet strongly that the new Datasheet for them will allow every bike to carry one, just like they do currently.

The thing is that this will not necessarily make them as powerful as they are now. Relentless is going away meaning that they will probably have a -1 to hit when they move whereas twin-linked shuricats will now be getting 4 shots at normal BS.

Also, with tanks getting an armour save, Scatter lasers won't be anywhere near as good at stripping hull points anymore. Pus the fact that tanks have more wounds than they did hull points will make them even less effective.

Let's consider moving scatter bikes firing at a Dreadnought in 7th and 8th editions for a comparison since we have dreadnought stats. Let's also assume that the scatter laser is heavy 4, damage 1 and Ap0.

In 7th edition the bikes needed 3s to hit and 6s to glance so 27 shots were needed to kill a dreadnought by glancing off all 3 hull points. 3 bikes would normally take just over 2 rounds of firing to kill a dread (assuming front shots).

In 8th, the bikes will need 4s to hit, 5s to wound but then the Dread gets a 3+ save and has 8 wounds to chew through. Now it takes a whopping 144 scatter laser shots to kill a Dread on average. 3 Scatter bikes would take 12 rounds to kill a Dreadnought!

So there you have it. I think that the reduced effectiveness of poor AP, single wound weapons against vehicles means that scatter bikes won't actually need restricting at all. The rules changes means they are roughly 6 times less effective at killing medium armour than they were in 7th. My guess is that they won't be much use for shooting at anything heavier than buggies and speeders.

Still too effective for a weapon that goes on every bike.

Martel732 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
The box allows the option to upgrade all windriders to shuricannons or scatter lasers. I would bet strongly that the new Datasheet for them will allow every bike to carry one, just like they do currently.

The thing is that this will not necessarily make them as powerful as they are now. Relentless is going away meaning that they will probably have a -1 to hit when they move whereas twin-linked shuricats will now be getting 4 shots at normal BS.

Also, with tanks getting an armour save, Scatter lasers won't be anywhere near as good at stripping hull points anymore. Pus the fact that tanks have more wounds than they did hull points will make them even less effective.

Let's consider moving scatter bikes firing at a Dreadnought in 7th and 8th editions for a comparison since we have dreadnought stats. Let's also assume that the scatter laser is heavy 4, damage 1 and Ap0.

In 7th edition the bikes needed 3s to hit and 6s to glance so 27 shots were needed to kill a dreadnought by glancing off all 3 hull points. 3 bikes would normally take just over 2 rounds of firing to kill a dread (assuming front shots).

In 8th, the bikes will need 4s to hit, 5s to wound but then the Dread gets a 3+ save and has 8 wounds to chew through. Now it takes a whopping 144 scatter laser shots to kill a Dread on average. 3 Scatter bikes would take 12 rounds to kill a Dreadnought!

So there you have it. I think that the reduced effectiveness of poor AP, single wound weapons against vehicles means that scatter bikes won't actually need restricting at all. The rules changes means they are roughly 6 times less effective at killing medium armour than they were in 7th. My guess is that they won't be much use for shooting at anything heavier than buggies and speeders.

Still too effective for a weapon that goes on every bike.

depends on how much they cost. If they are 20+ points they are not too effective.

 Galef wrote:

Scatterbikes were OP in 7th because of their effectiveness. One can argue all day that Troops should not have access to so many weapon options, but really that's an Imperium point of view.
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No, that's a balanced game point of view. No other Troops unit in the game gets to spam heavy weapons the way Windriders do. If they shift them to Fast Attack, then fair play move on. However, if they remain Troops, they damn well better be nerfed hard.

Also, shuricats had better not get -1 AP, nor should anyone else's basic infantry weapons. Shuricannons, sure, they are a heavy weapon after all. Shuriken weapons can keep Bladestorm and get an occasional -3 AP, but the blanket AP -1 to basic infantry weapons is unacceptable.

My turn to say this guy gets it.

Eldar Guardians have 1 heavy per 10, so there is that.
I am not opposed to the "Troop" jetbikes having 1 per 3, I just don't think GW will do it because the kit allows each bike to have any weapon
Black Guardians could be the solution by having them be Elites and being able to take any weapon while the Troop Windriders only get 1 per 3. That change I would like very much.

But what I am opposed to is Jetbikes no longer being Troops in any form or the basic jetbike being nerfed and overcosted to the point that they are unappealing even in friendly games.
Given what we now know about points (Marines are 13ppm, Multi-metla is 27ppm) I think Scatter lasers should not exceed 15ppm in any case.

-

Woah! Did not realize there was such dislike on scatbikes...Maybe because my FLGS is pretty competitive group that I do not even bat an eye seeing scatbike spams.

I guess scatbikes just cripple a lot of non-competitive builds such as orks/IG/and etc. But against Riptide wing/ Gladius/Admech/Barkstar/etc they do not seem to be OP.

I am speculating/hoping that scatbikes be given a high Power Rating for open/narrative games but a comparable point cost on other armies competitive builds. I mean they will most likely lose that insane mobility of 36" turbo (rightfully so) and scatterlasser is actually comparable to heavy bolter in 8th (assuming sactterlaser is S6 AP- D1 Heavy 4). So my opinion will be that they should cost more than a marine with HB but less than a marine on a bike with HB.

 Galef wrote:
Eldar Guardians have 1 heavy per 10, so there is that.
I am not opposed to the "Troop" jetbikes having 1 per 3, I just don't think GW will do it because the kit allows each bike to have any weapon
Black Guardians could be the solution by having them be Elites and being able to take any weapon while the Troop Windriders only get 1 per 3. That change I would like very much.

But what I am opposed to is Jetbikes no longer being Troops in any form or the basic jetbike being nerfed and overcosted to the point that they are unappealing even in friendly games.
Given what we now know about points (Marines are 13ppm, Multi-metla is 27ppm) I think Scatter lasers should not exceed 15ppm in any case.

-

Jetbikes should not be troops. Period. In any list. Especially when they can all upgrade to a heavy weapon. That makes them troops that are better than marine devastators or CSM havocs. Scatterlasers on tanks for 10 pts is fine, but for jetbikes, its currently worth 20 pts easy.

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Eldar Guardians have 1 heavy per 10, so there is that.
I am not opposed to the "Troop" jetbikes having 1 per 3, I just don't think GW will do it because the kit allows each bike to have any weapon
Black Guardians could be the solution by having them be Elites and being able to take any weapon while the Troop Windriders only get 1 per 3. That change I would like very much.

But what I am opposed to is Jetbikes no longer being Troops in any form or the basic jetbike being nerfed and overcosted to the point that they are unappealing even in friendly games.
Given what we now know about points (Marines are 13ppm, Multi-metla is 27ppm) I think Scatter lasers should not exceed 15ppm in any case.

-

Jetbikes should not be troops. Period. In any list. Especially when they can all upgrade to a heavy weapon. That makes them troops that are better than marine devastators or CSM havocs. Scatterlasers on tanks for 10 pts is fine, but for jetbikes, its currently worth 20 pts easy.

I do not get this fixation with "Troops" when it is simply a designation no different than Elite/FA/HS. I get it in 7th when troops gained an advantage by having ObSec but with 3/14 FOC that was released for 8th, troop did not gain any special rule. Also, I am fairly confident that there will be FOC that will not make troops mandatory and instead will make Elite/FA/HS be the main focus. That should solve the problem of "spammability".

Martel732 wrote:
Jetbikes should not be troops. Period. In any list. Especially when they can all upgrade to a heavy weapon. That makes them troops that are better than marine devastators or CSM havocs. Scatterlasers on tanks for 10 pts is fine, but for jetbikes, its currently worth 20 pts easy.

The sad part is, I don't think that them being Fast Attack will make a hill of gold worth of difference. As was mentioned several times in several places, there are 14 different basic detachments, and one of them is almost guaranteed to be Fast Attack oriented for all the White Scars, Ravenwings, Saim Hann, and Speed Kult players out there.

Unless being a Jet Bike also comes with a significant game penalty, like being unable to secure an objective at all, I don't think that this is going to improve Scatbike lists in opponent's eyes.

Either their Power Level/Point Cost has to be ridiculous, or the Scatterlaser they will get will be a severely nerfed version of what they have now (see Tau Broadside Suits for reference).

Then the eldar rage will continue i suppose.

Martel732 wrote:

Jetbikes should not be troops. Period. In any list. Especially when they can all upgrade to a heavy weapon. That makes them troops that are better than marine devastators or CSM havocs. Scatterlasers on tanks for 10 pts is fine, but for jetbikes, its currently worth 20 pts easy.

Being Troops has little to do with how powerful a unit is. It has to do with how common or readily available a certain type of unit/wargear an army can call upon.
It is why Grey Knights can take Terminators as Troops.
Normally Termies are Elites in other armies, but because the GKs have enough Tactical Dreadnought Armour for literally every single one of their battle brothers, Termies get to be Troops.
Likewise, White Scars and Ravenwing can take bikes as Troops: because they have a large number of them available and enough battle brothers trained in mounted combat.

Eldar are the undisputed masters of anti-grav tech. Most Craftworlds, especially Saim-Hann, probably have enough jetbikes for every single guardian to ride into battle. This is especially true since they are a "dying" race. They more Eldar that die, the more gear becomes available to distribute amongst the survivors

-

There is actually a big difference between lists that access to non-tax troops and those that don't. So all troops need to be tax units or not tax units.

I really don't care about the fluff-based argument, I only care about balance and fairness. I don't see how unlimited undercosted units with incredible movement and tremendous firepower are fair.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't see how unlimited undercosted units with incredible movement and tremendous firepower are fair.

Those kinds of units aren't fair. But making them not-Troops isn't the best answer.
The best answer (because it also satisfies the fluff, which is important even if you don't think it is) is making them cost appropriate with reasonable speed and firepower.

-Make the weapons they have access too less effective, which 8th seems to have already done with the update To Wound chart and -1 to hit for heavy weapons (and Relentless likely gone)
-Make them have the more appropriate armour save of 4+
-Take away the Jump-shoot-jump and 36" turbo-boost, replace this with a flat M stat of around 14-18" and 2d6 Advance move
-Keep them about the cost of 2-3 Guardians with weapon upgrades costing roughly 1-2 Guardians more

If those changes are not enough for you, you aren't looking for balance, you are looking for revenge.

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" which is important even if you don't think it is"

It's not just me that doesn't think it is important. GW doesn't think it's important on the tabletop AT ALL.

Cut the scatterlaser to 24" so its more in line with the assault cannon as well. 36" is too much for such a cheap weapon. That, or make it MUCH more expensive.

I can't say anything about the cost without knowing what guardians cost. They should cost a LOT more than space marine devastators. That's a more fair comparison.

Martel732 wrote:
" which is important even if you don't think it is"

It's not just me that doesn't think it is important. GW doesn't think it's important on the tabletop AT ALL.

Cut the scatterlaser to 24" so its more in line with the assault cannon as well. 36" is too much for such a cheap weapon. That, or make it MUCH more expensive.

I disagree that GW doesn't think fluff is important. So many of their design choices are fluff based. They just haven't been very good at it. That's a distinct difference.

I actually agree with you on the range. I would not mind 24" Scatter lasers. Especially since it seems very likely that Eldar will have very high M stats across the board.
I would be very surprised if Jetbikes have less that 14" moves, probably 18" as long as they get rid of the turboboost.
24" Scatter laser would also mean the Shuricannon needs to go to 18" or so.

Also keep in mind that the comparison between Scatter laser and Assault cannon will be dramatically different in 8th due to the AP system.
Scatters in 7th did damage but forcing tons of saves. Assault cannons had to rely on 6s
if the Rubric Marine Soulreaper is any indication, Assault cannons will be AP -2 (-1 to represent AP4 and an additional -1 for Rending)
Assault cannons shoulf cause WAY more wounds than Scatter lasers in 8th.

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 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" which is important even if you don't think it is"

It's not just me that doesn't think it is important. GW doesn't think it's important on the tabletop AT ALL.

Cut the scatterlaser to 24" so its more in line with the assault cannon as well. 36" is too much for such a cheap weapon. That, or make it MUCH more expensive.

I disagree that GW doesn't think fluff is important. So many of their design choices are fluff based. They just haven't been very good at it. That's a distinct difference.

I actually agree with you on the range. I would not mind 24" Scatter lasers. Especially since it seems very likely that Eldar will have very high M stats across the board.
I would be very surprised if Jetbikes have less that 14" moves, probably 18" as long as they get rid of the turboboost.
24" Scatter laser would also mean the Shuricannon needs to go to 18" or so.

Also keep in mind that the comparison between Scatter laser and Assault cannon will be dramatically different in 8th due to the AP system.
Scatters in 7th did damage but forcing tons of saves. Assault cannons had to rely on 6s
if the Rubric Marine Soulreaper is any indication, Assault cannons will be AP -2 (-1 to represent AP4 and an additional -1 for Rending)
Assault cannons shoulf cause WAY more wounds than Scatter lasers in 8th.

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But they won't because they come in ones and twos and scatterlasers come in the dozens. Eldar equip their toasters with them. I suspect opportunity cost for assault cannons will make them unplayable crap as usual.

 Karhedron wrote:
The box allows the option to upgrade all windriders to shuricannons or scatter lasers. I would bet strongly that the new Datasheet for them will allow every bike to carry one, just like they do currently.

The thing is that this will not necessarily make them as powerful as they are now. Relentless is going away meaning that they will probably have a -1 to hit when they move whereas twin-linked shuricats will now be getting 4 shots at normal BS.

Also, with tanks getting an armour save, Scatter lasers won't be anywhere near as good at stripping hull points anymore. Pus the fact that tanks have more wounds than they did hull points will make them even less effective.

Let's consider moving scatter bikes firing at a Dreadnought in 7th and 8th editions for a comparison since we have dreadnought stats. Let's also assume that the scatter laser is heavy 4, damage 1 and Ap0.

In 7th edition the bikes needed 3s to hit and 6s to glance so 27 shots were needed to kill a dreadnought by glancing off all 3 hull points. 3 bikes would normally take just over 2 rounds of firing to kill a dread (assuming front shots).

In 8th, the bikes will need 4s to hit, 5s to wound but then the Dread gets a 3+ save and has 8 wounds to chew through. Now it takes a whopping 144 scatter laser shots to kill a Dread on average. 3 Scatter bikes would take 12 rounds to kill a Dreadnought!

So there you have it. I think that the reduced effectiveness of poor AP, single wound weapons against vehicles means that scatter bikes won't actually need restricting at all. The rules changes means they are roughly 6 times less effective at killing medium armour than they were in 7th. My guess is that they won't be much use for shooting at anything heavier than buggies and speeders.

do you really think the problem of scatterbikes in 7th was about destroy a dread? seriously? if is true they listen to community sure scatterbike will be underpowered, ANY eldar list at major tournaments in last 2 years play lot of them and not for just veichles hunting they killed anything, they need a revision, period.

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" which is important even if you don't think it is"

It's not just me that doesn't think it is important. GW doesn't think it's important on the tabletop AT ALL.

Cut the scatterlaser to 24" so its more in line with the assault cannon as well. 36" is too much for such a cheap weapon. That, or make it MUCH more expensive.

I disagree that GW doesn't think fluff is important. So many of their design choices are fluff based. They just haven't been very good at it. That's a distinct difference.

I actually agree with you on the range. I would not mind 24" Scatter lasers. Especially since it seems very likely that Eldar will have very high M stats across the board.
I would be very surprised if Jetbikes have less that 14" moves, probably 18" as long as they get rid of the turboboost.
24" Scatter laser would also mean the Shuricannon needs to go to 18" or so.

Also keep in mind that the comparison between Scatter laser and Assault cannon will be dramatically different in 8th due to the AP system.
Scatters in 7th did damage but forcing tons of saves. Assault cannons had to rely on 6s
if the Rubric Marine Soulreaper is any indication, Assault cannons will be AP -2 (-1 to represent AP4 and an additional -1 for Rending)
Assault cannons shoulf cause WAY more wounds than Scatter lasers in 8th.

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But they won't because they come in ones and twos and scatterlasers come in the dozens. Eldar equip their toasters with them. I suspect opportunity cost for assault cannons will make them unplayable crap as usual.

I actually expect assault cannons to be one of the best options in the game, already ap4 with rending so they will have great rend -X likely and at str 6 they can hurt anything. razerbacks with 8 shot str 6 AP-2 will be hotness. scatter lasers if they lose AP then wounding SM on 3's and they still get normal armor so they are less effective but still pretty good. personally I would rather they nerf my jetbike shooting than their movement though.

Being Troops has little to do with how powerful a unit is. It has to do with how common or readily available a certain type of unit/wargear an army can call upon

but in a game where 2/3 of games was objective control and/or maelstrom a TROOP which move to 36 IS a factor or are you playing another game?

 blackmage wrote:

Being Troops has little to do with how powerful a unit is. It has to do with how common or readily available a certain type of unit/wargear an army can call upon

but in a game where 2/3 of games was objective control and/or maelstrom a TROOP which move to 36 IS a factor or are you playing another game?

I don't disagree that that way ludicrous. A total 48" move was way too much, especially for an ObSec unit. That needs to go.
But that was a consequence of the game mechanics that hopefully have been fixed in 8th.

Jetbike Troops make sense and (as Charistoph mentioned) there are likely several Fast Attack heavy detachments, so moving them from Troops to Fast Attack would be pointless.
And even if (as I hope) Elite Black Guardian bikes are the only option that can take all weapon uprades, leaving Troop Windriders at 1 per 3, we already know there is a detachment with tons of Elites available.
So players who want to spam Scatterbikes still will be able to.

I really like the idea of making some of the Eldar weapons have a shorter range, but give the models themselves very fast movement.
Eldar Infantry are likely M7" or higher, meaning it is reasonable to think that Jetbikes could be up to M18".
By making Shuricannons also 18" range, the total effective range for them is the same as now (36") while 24" Scatter lasers would be about 6" less effective range than now.
But it means the model has to get closer and hopefully with no JSJ, that will make them easier targets for short ranged weapon and assaults.

-

I have the sinking feeling I'm going to still want these things to die in a fire in 8th. I don't think any of these nerfs are happening except maybe turbo boost. Rage mode = on for 8th. I won't know how much rage until I see the stats for a Rhino.

 Galef wrote:

Jetbike Troops make sense and (as Charistoph mentioned) there are likely several Fast Attack heavy detachments, so moving them from Troops to Fast Attack would be pointless.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that the Fast Attack heavy detachments will come at an opportunity cost - probably receiving less Command Points than Troops-primary detachments. So, if Windriders aren't shifted to Fast Attack, then it would yet again be a case of Eldar players getting to have their cake and eat it too.

Also, let's remember that scatter lasers aren't the only option Windriders get for their upgrades. Even if scatter lasers are nerfed in the new rules, I think it's reasonable to expect that shuricannons will get -AP -1, and shuriken weapons will probably retain Bladestorm in some form or another in order to differentiate Eldar weaponry from everyone else's. Plus, I think it highly unlikely GW will go back on allowing all members of the squad to upgrade when the kit has enough upgrades for every member of the squad. Finally, even non-upgraded Windriders are going to be packing 4 shots now with the upcoming change to twin-linked weapons. Even if they are pried stratospherically high, Eldar players would still be saving a considerable opportunity cost by being able to take them as compulsory Troops choices in Troops-primary detachments that, presumably, yield the most Command Points, saving their Fast Attack slots for things like Warp Spiders.

So, with all that in mind, Windriders as Troops are apt to remain broken. There is no compelling case for them to remain Troops. The only reason they were shifted from Fast Attack to Troops in the first place was as a nod to Saim Hann players who bought their models in accordance with 3rd ed's Codex: Craftworld Eldar. The mechanic for supporting such armies now is to have detachments focusing on the appropriate unit type. It looks strongly like 8th ed is going to include an opportunity cost for fielding such detachments. So, the appropriate place for Wind Riders to go is Fast Attack. You can be sure if that doesn't happen, GW is going to be hearing about it from displeased customers in an awful hurry.