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Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan





Dallas area, TX

I am not sure which sub-forum this would belong to, so if it isn't in the right place, Mods please move it, thanks.

I wanted to throw out some of the speculation I have for Windriders.
SInce "turboboosting" is being rolled into the same "Advancing" step as Run, I think Windriders are going to have a pretty big M stat.
I'd be willing to bet more than 12". Likely close to 18". But no more Jump-shoot-jump
And/or their Advance move might be 2D6"

Onto weapons. I also think "Relentless" will no longer be a thing. So even Bikes will have a -1 to Hit with Heavy weapons (like the Scatter Laser)
Shuriken weapons will almost certainly be AP -1, although GW might play around with the S and # of shots. If they do it will be less S, but more shots if anything
So a Shuricat would either be S4 Assault 2 like now, or S3 Assault 3

And for those of you who are hoping that the weapon upgrades go back to 1 per 3, just look at the current kit. It isn't going away soon and there are 3 Scatters, 3 Shuricats and 3 Shuricannons in the box of only 3 Bikes.
Fully upgraded units will not be going away....

...unless Black Guardian Windriders make it into the rules and stay Elite (or whatever the 8th equivalent is). That way the kit can stay relevant and be a dual kit. 1 unit can be Windriders that can only take 1 per 2 weapons, or you can make them a unit of BGs that can take all weapons.

What do you think? Does this sound likely?
WIll -1 to hit for Scatterbikes help them become balanced?
Will Shurikens being AP -1 make Shuricannons a better option? Especially considering that vehicles in 8th now fit the "niche" unit that the Shuricannon was better at in 7th?

My theory is that Scatterbikes will not be the go-to loadout because of the outcry for the community, but Shuricannon bikes may be the new hotness.

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/03 13:27:30


   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







Given how AoS handled things I'd bet on Windriders just moving out of Troops/Core/Battleline entirely (except possibly for some highly-restricted Saim-Hann theme list).

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Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan





Dallas area, TX

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Given how AoS handled things I'd bet on Windriders just moving out of Troops/Core/Battleline entirely (except possibly for some highly-restricted Saim-Hann theme list).

As long as a Saim-Hann style detachment allowed it, I would be cool with that. Jetbikes have been Troops/Core for over a decade and have been my preferred troop since 4th ed (which is why I started Eldar)
I doubt GW will deny this option that so many players have.

-

   
Made in ru
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






Well, they denied orks our nob troops.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think you're right on most counts. The main difference is that I expect Scatter Lasers will go down a point in Strength, and have no AP modifications. That'll help them go back to their role of infantry-killer rather than light-tank killer. Without denying vehicles their armour saves and having 1 point lower strength, vehicles will be more resilient to them.

It's possible that their Advance rule lets them move 2d6", but it could even be further. In fact, it might just be a double their movement if their movement is 12". Agreed that they'll almost certainly lose Jump-Shoot-Jump. I wouldn't be surprised if almost all bikers get a rule that lets them Hit & Run in a way though, so these bikes may still be very hard to keep locked down.

You'll still have the option to take all Scatbikes, because they sold them like that. I wouldn't be surprised though if they just bump up the points of having these heavy weapons in the unit, and/or of the unit as a whole.

Anyways, that's my thoughts on it.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan





Dallas area, TX

 koooaei wrote:
Well, they denied orks our nob troops.

The difference is that Nobs always had to be "unlocked" as Troops. Bikes have been flat out Troops since the 4th ed codex, maybe even before.
What you are suggesting has already happened to Eldar. Wraithguard used to be unlockable Troops if you take a Spiritseer. That can no longer happen, yet Bikes remained Troops
In the past decade, GW has only denied Troops that had to be unlocked, but to my knowledge, units that were always Troops, stayed Troops

That said, I could see Windriders not being Troops/Core for any Eldar army unless it is Saim-Hann


@ Yarium: I agree. Scatter lasers will not have an AP modifier. I could see them taking the S down to 5, but it may very well stay 6. Now that AV is gone, that difference is not as significant.
For example, a S5 Scatter laser can wound a T7 Dread just as easily as a S6 scatter laser can cause a HP on an AV12 Dread.
The fact that the new T7 8W dread also has a 3+ armour, means that taking Scatter to S5 is a HUGE nerf for them.

If Rhinos are say, T6 with a 4+ save and most likely 5-6W (just a guess mind you), it will be much harder for a S6 Scatter laser to take it out compared to an AV11 with only 3HP.
A full unit of 3 Scatterbikes can take out a Rhiino in 7th. If the Rhino stat is anywhere close to my guess above and Scatter lasers end up being -1 to Hit for moving, even with S6 they will not be able to take out the 8th ed Rhino in 1 turn (which is a good thing as it will encourage the use of weapons that have AP modifiers and Mortal wounds)

-

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/05/03 14:31:31


   
Made in fr
Dakka Veteran




I hope GW will keep consistent movement value for all eldar jetbikes, to make things easier to remember. If that's indeed the case, a 12" is the max they can give them, otherwise it would make melee-focused jetbikes too fast.
So my guess would be a 12", with a better advance move than standard models.

Shuriken-based weapons might get a -1 rend instead of bladestorm. But AoS has many things that can inflict mortal wounds on rolls on 6, so they might keep some form of rending. Mortal wounds are way too powerful to be spammed, but a -3 rend on a to-wound of 6 could exist.

If I had to re-design the weapons, I'd make the shuri catapults S4, -1 rend, assault 2, the scatt las S5, no rend, heavy 4, and the shuri cannon S6, -1 rend, heavy 2, assuming no relentless-ness.
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan





Dallas area, TX

I really doubt Shuricannons would be Heavy or only 2 shots. They literally fire light weight, near invisibly thin discs at a very high rate. if they change at all, it would be S5, Assault 4

Edit: On Morale: Even though Windriders are currently LD8, I think they will probably be LD7 now. This will mean that a unit of 3 is almost immune to Morale (and LD8 would be immune)
Lets say 3 Windriders take 1 casualty. At the end of the turn, if they roll a 6, then still pass at LD7, but if they take 2 casualties, a roll of a 6 would kill the last bike
This makes larger units of bikes a bad idea overall.

If Windriders become LD7, hopefully Warlocks stay LD8. I have always wanted Warlocks to be more useful in bike units.

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/03 16:08:34


   
Made in kw
Agile Revenant Titan





Raeford NC

Bikes retain ability to upgrade weapons. Scatterlaser and Shuriken Cannon need better parody, such as -1 saves for Cannon but more shots for Scatterlaser. Bikes will have a -1 to hit roll.

The 48" total move in a turn needs to be drastically toned down.

All speculation, time will tell.

For all the GW hate, they've done something right as I've been playing 40K since 1989. Very excited for 8th edition! 
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin





East Bay, Ca, US

I have no idea how they will balance the units with insane mobility.

The scatterlaser is a problem, but not nearly as big a problem as being totally and completely unable to ever catch the windriders.

I can deal with Strength 6 heavy 4 with no AP, but i can't deal with unit that is uncatchable.

To compute the probability of a specific outcome on N DK dice, use the generating function F= (x+ x^2 + x^3 + . . . + x^k-1 + x^k)^n

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy.
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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





As with everything I'm just hoping for balance. To me that means fairly pointed units with rules that make them a fair choice in any army, but not a must have.
That's an across the board hope for every unit/army in the game. But more specifically for scatter laser jet bikes here's hoping they retain their speed, but those weapons need to be toned down in strength and perhaps even range. To me they're speed would preclude them from needing a long range cannon, it would be more like an assault rifle.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





I hope they're nerfed into the ground

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Dakka Veteran




Ute nation

As someone who thinks Eldar were way over tuned this edition, I don't think they will have to change wind riders much for 8th. Scatter lasers doing a single wound a hit would put them out of the running for anti-vehicle work, and a 0 ap means they won't be good against heavy infantry either. I'm betting that MSM is gone (too easy to abuse), so battle focus will probably be rolled into the Eldar's movement phase.

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Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




WA, USA

I would advise people try not to speculate too hard on a single unit. Even if GW were to just throw out the stats for them now, not knowing the full context could lead to runaway speculation and 'sky is falling' reactions. But then again...this IS Dakka...

 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan





Dallas area, TX

Oh, something that I forgot to mention: With cover providing + to armour save, I highly anticipate Windrider to only have a 4+ armour to start with.

whether Jink exists in 8th or if moving fast (Advancing) grants a +1 armour similar to how turbo-boosting granted cover bonuses in prior editions, this would FINALLY be a good representation of how "Eldar rely on speed for durability"

I actually have my fingers crossed for this. 4+ sv naturally, but moving at full M stat grants +1 armour or choosing to Advance does. They would really "feel" like they should.
It would also be another way to penalize Scatterbikes (without nerfing them into the ground):
Do you want to stay still and not take the -1 to hit? Or move and get +1 armour? That could be a serious choice.

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/05 21:20:51


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Scatterbikes are overpowered because they are actually overpowered

27 points for 4 shots at 36" and strength 6 from a T4, Sav+3

Let's compare that directly to a unit of SM Devastators using Heavy Bolters

27 points for 3 shots at 36" and strength 5 from a T4, Sav+3

Maybe it's a bad comparison. People complain about Tau, let's see how they do with 36" shooting, with Crisis Suits...

52 points for 4 shots at 36" and strength 7 from a T4, Sav+3

Oh, what about an IG Heavy Weapons Team, those guys are pretty cost efficient...
25 points for 3 shots at 36" and strength 5 from a T3, Sav+5


I understand there are probably some better examples to be found, but it's not difficult to see that Scatterbikes are simply mathematically amazing. Even with ignoring a lot of their bonuses such as access to Jink and the increased Mobility.

Even a simple point cost increase, maybe like 2~5 higher for the basic bike and another 5 for Scatter Laser would have made the Windriders pretty balanced.


6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in au
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Brisbane, Australia

If they don't have a way to ignore the -1 to Hit if they move and the Assault Move is removed (and instead they just have a really high base Mv value) that'll help, especially if Scatter Lasers are AP0, Damage 1.

Of course, it'll still depend on points values and if Windriders are still Troops and can take 1 Scatter Laser each. It's a slight possibility that they'll be moved to FA or be split into 2 units (A troop units with 1 weapon upgrade per 3 and a FA/HS option that can take one each).

Multiple thin coats are always better than one thick coat.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




The only thing that would really nerf jetbikes is if they simply changed one sentence on the datasheet from "Any windrider can exchange...." to "One in every three windriders can exchange.....".

It would be a very simple change that would completely change how that unit works.
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Northern California

I would expect all bikes to be able to purchase a heavy weapon.
I would expect -1 to shoot that heavy weapon.
Shuriken weapons are probably Rend +1. Lasers most likely will have no Rend.
Jetbikes will likely be susceptible to Morale. Killing 1 jetbike might see you lose the unit.
Str 6 shooting in general will probably get a nerf - in that most things will have more wounds and armor in general, and you will need Str 8-10 to do reliable damage to vehicles, unlike how mass Str 6 murders everything in the game.

Something as simple as a Dreadnaught will actually be difficult for Scatterlasers to kill now. Scatbikes will mow down infantry, but struggle against walkers and vehicles - as they should.


5+ to Wound, with a 3+ save and 8 wounds. If I did my math right, three current Scatterlaser bikes will do less than 1 wound a turn to a dreadnought.

One final edit: this all sums up to say that I just don't think it will be useful to bring loads of scatterbikes to a game - even if they remain a powerful option. You won't be able to deal with diversity of threats like you could in 7th Ed.

My guess is something like the Rhino will have T6 and 4-6 Wounds with a 3+ or 4+ save as well.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/06 04:06:32


   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan





Raeford NC

I've been using Scatterlasers as a huge baseline for my shooting since 5th edition; back then it was 9 War Walkers and Wave Serpents. It is a really good baseline for shooting, then add in other tools, such as Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Wraithknights and Warp Hunters for more all comer type design. I'd pay 180 points for 6 Scatterlaser War Walkers and 166 points for 6 Scatterlaser bikes. But, bikes were great as they could get Obsec in a CAD and their turbo boost late game had significant impact.

I don't think the Scatterlaser role will substantially change, but finding the right balance between Scatterlasers and other weapons will be key. This is where Scatbikes in masses may not become the defacto choice.

For all the GW hate, they've done something right as I've been playing 40K since 1989. Very excited for 8th edition! 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Galef wrote:
@ Yarium: I agree. Scatter lasers will not have an AP modifier. I could see them taking the S down to 5, but it may very well stay 6. Now that AV is gone, that difference is not as significant.
For example, a S5 Scatter laser can wound a T7 Dread just as easily as a S6 scatter laser can cause a HP on an AV12 Dread.


But with S6 they wound twice as often...

The fact that the new T7 8W dread also has a 3+ armour, means that taking Scatter to S5 is a HUGE nerf for them.


Scat lasers aren't supposed to be anti tank weapon....



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Youn wrote:
The only thing that would really nerf jetbikes is if they simply changed one sentence on the datasheet from "Any windrider can exchange...." to "One in every three windriders can exchange.....".

It would be a very simple change that would completely change how that unit works.


Ain't happening since they went for box of 1 bike rather than box with 3 bikes

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/06 06:50:24


”Buddhism doesn't tell you what is false and what is true but it encourages you to find out for yourself.” ~ Chogyam Trungpa ~ 
   
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Dakka Veteran




High elves have a Bravery of 6 unless they are elite units in which case their Bravery is 7. What they means is eldar guardian on Jetbike will have a 6 most likely.


3 Jetbikes take 1 casualty in the turn 1+1d6 - 6 means they only lose a second bike if another 6 is rolled. So, they aren't immune to Moral but they are most likely near immune.

Silver spears on the other hand should have a 7. Which will make them near immune in squads of 3.
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan





Dallas area, TX

With the new To Wound chart released, I and thinking the Scatter lasers will remain S6 as they no longer wound T4 on 2+, yet they'll wound T7-T11 on 5+

I think it is also a good speculation that Shuriken catapults are likely to be S3 now. if they are Ap -1 like we all assume, being S3 will make them less able to kill Vehicles/MCs, yet also allow weapons like Guass (which I also suspect will be AP -1) to be a bit different (i.e. keep their S4)

   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin





East Bay, Ca, US

My personal guess:

Bike/Cavalry move speeds will be 10"

The concept of Jetbikes will cease to exist.

Scatterlasers will be heavy 4 strength 6 still, but with no save mod.

To compute the probability of a specific outcome on N DK dice, use the generating function F= (x+ x^2 + x^3 + . . . + x^k-1 + x^k)^n

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy.
How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission



Eastern VA

The new wound chart and -1BS when firing heavy weapons on the move are a notable nerf to scatbikes against most targets anyway.

If I had to speculate on further changes, I'll bet Galef is right on the money with armor, and they'll probably also switch Windriders back to one in three, while letting Black Guardian bikes take heavies across the board but in an Elite or FA slot. Points changes are on the table too of course.

My bet is that scatterbikes won't be nerfed into the ground, but will be nerfed rather significantly. They need to be, not only for external balance, but for internal balance too: give folks a reason to want Guardians, Dire Avengers or Rangers.

~4500 -- ~4000 -- ~2000 -- ~5000 -- ~5000 -- ~4000 
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan





Dallas area, TX

 Marmatag wrote:
My personal guess:

Bike/Cavalry move speeds will be 10"

The concept of Jetbikes will cease to exist.

I don't disagree that Jetbikes and Bikes are likely to be the same "type" of unit. however, I am almost positive that Eldar Jetbkes will significantly faster than most other bikes.
If a Space marine bike ends up having a 10" M stat, Windriders could likely have an 16"+ M stat. Bikes in general tend to move over twice as fast as a person can run, so if Eldar are M 7" (very likely), then Windriders will be a minimum of 14"

That is assuming that Bikes don't get an accelerated Advance move, like 2D6.


Being able to Split fire is kinda worrisome for me. We can pretty much assume that WIndriders (at least as Black Guardian Elites as Jade_angel says above) will retain the ability to take all weapon upgrade (becasue, again the kit allows) so you could have mixed units with some Scatters and some Shuricannons and still wreck face.

On Morale, someone brought either in another thread or on Facebook that Elves in AoS are mostly Bravery 6. With the way morale works, I kinda feel like this will be the case for most Eldar. So a unit of Windriders that lose 1 bike will take Morale at D6+1-6, therefore could lose 1 model if a '6' is rolled. I like this because it means that 3-man units are at least slightly vulnerable to Morale.

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/08 18:09:17


   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin





East Bay, Ca, US

If your average bike has a move of 10 inches, and an Eldar bike had a move of 12 inches, that wouldn't be so bad. It's the turbo boosting and stuff that gets out of hand.

Scatter lasers are a heavy weapon. Meaning if they move, they're hitting on 4's.

Hitting on 4's and wounding on 3's isn't so bad, compared to hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's as before. This drops their effectiveness at shooting by 40%.

But to me, movement + range is still the big issue. They can easily and comfortably do all of their damage out of range of most things.

To compute the probability of a specific outcome on N DK dice, use the generating function F= (x+ x^2 + x^3 + . . . + x^k-1 + x^k)^n

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy.
How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

 
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan





Dallas area, TX

 Marmatag wrote:
If your average bike has a move of 10 inches, and an Eldar bike had a move of 12 inches, that wouldn't be so bad. It's the turbo boosting and stuff that gets out of hand.

But that's the thing though, if Run/Turboboost has been rolled into a D6 or 2D6 "Advance" move as part of the move phase, then the egregious 36" Turboboost is thankfully gone.
Run is D6" and bikes and/or cavalry are probably only 2D6". That means that the regular M stat for individual bikes can now be what represents the differences between units.
If Marines have M6", Marine bikes will almost assuredly be M12" (not 10).
I am really confident that Eldar bikes will be at least M15", if not 18"

18" move + 2D6 is a max of 30". Much better than the 48" they could go before.

Side Edit: I just realized that Dark Eldar Reavers might finally be faster than Windriders. Afterall, that is the entire reason Reavers are less armoured.

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/09 12:52:47


   
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Eastern CT

There's nothing wrong with Scatbikes that being shifted over to Fast Attack wouldn't solve.

Check out my brand new 40K/gaming blog: Crafting Cave Games 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






They will still be scatty

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