Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Based on what synapse does, I'm fully well expecting statlines to be like
Termagant
M6" Ws4+ bs4+ s3 t3 w1 a1 ld3 sv-

GodDamUser wrote:
lol Traditio is trying to find any reason to be angry with 8th

He just wants his 7th net list to be good still

He doesn't use a net list, he uses a list comprised entirely of assaults, tacs, and devastators.. Why he's raging over Tyranid Morale being something good for once I have no clue.

Guessing he's raging over Tyranid Warriors because then his missile launchers may not be able to instant death them..

I want to be afraid to play against Tyranids again. The last several editions I haven't been bothered at all seeing them on the table because they would either never get to me or my melee stuff was better than thier's. This makes me actually nervous to face them and want an army of my own. This is nothing but a positive.

Warriors were explicitly mentioned in the article as being synapse creatures, and they're not characters - in fact, they're more like Tyranid TEQs. Currently Zoanthropes and Shrikes are the other non-Character, non-MC synapse creatures (and the Forge World Malanthrope, which was an MC at one time but isn't anymore). I'd expect that to remain the same. Most Tyranid brain-bugs actually want to do things other than float lazily around brain-bugging, so they'll come forward into range of your guns. Warriors and Shrikes mostly want to assault, while Zoeys have short-range mind bullets.

It will still be possible to wax most of the synapse anchors, but it'll require some thinking beyond "Ok, top of turn 1 I've scrubbed them all by one-shotting them with missiles and melta squads in pods". And the 'nid player will have to think about their synapse web in list-building - "just spam Flyrants" almost certainly won't be the only viable strategy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

StarHunter25 wrote:
Based on what synapse does, I'm fully well expecting statlines to be like
Termagant
M6" Ws4+ bs4+ s3 t3 w1 a1 ld3 sv-

Not far off what they look like now. Current version is Ld 5 and Sv 6+, IIRC. I think they'll probably keep the 6+, though.

I don't see any of the gaunts having a ws or bs above 3. They still need to be individually weak enough to incentivize being taken in hordes.

Had a couple concerns about this.

First was: When the revealed the new morale, they said that few units would not feel the effects of morale, but that needed one gigantic asterisk - namely the entirety of the tyranid army.

Yes, you have to be in synapse, but that's generally pretty easy to accomplish.

I knew that synapse would do something, but outright army-wide immunity seems to go against their initial statement.

To be honest, though, my biggest concern isn't nids so much as space marines. Because if nids get army wide immunity, you know ATSKNF and who knows what else (except mob rule) will do the same.

My second concern was warriors. With terminators and frigging bolter marines (primaris, but still) getting an extra wound, I was shocked that warriors got nothing. I wasn't expecting a miracle, but at least an extra wound would have been nice, and reasonable.

The fact they didn't really has me concerned for nobz, and other multi wound infantry.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't see any of the gaunts having a ws or bs above 3. They still need to be individually weak enough to incentivize being taken in hordes.

If you're refering to the theorised profile, that was BS3. Remember than BS has been reversed and now the lower the number the better. What used to be BS1 is now BS6+, what used to be BS3 is now 4+, and what used to be BS5-10 are now all BS2+

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't see any of the gaunts having a ws or bs above 3. They still need to be individually weak enough to incentivize being taken in hordes.

When you say that, do you mean WS/BS 4+? Because higher is worse now, on the new statline. Or do you mean WS/BS 3+?

GodDamUser wrote:
lol Traditio is trying to find any reason to be angry with 8th

He just wants his 7th net list to be good still

You mean his net list of 10 man tactical squads with flamers and missile launchers? Oh crap they might not be able to answer the new threat of the bugs all by themselves! THE END IS COMING!!!

My honest feeling about his fearmongering:

 Deadshot wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't see any of the gaunts having a ws or bs above 3. They still need to be individually weak enough to incentivize being taken in hordes.

If you're refering to the theorised profile, that was BS3. Remember than BS has been reversed and now the lower the number the better. What used to be BS1 is now BS6+, what used to be BS3 is now 4+, and what used to be BS5-10 are now all BS2+

Ahh right, right.

They have now said that both the Trygon and The Swarmlord are capable of doing D6 wounds on a hit in melee and am wondering if this will be normal for all TMC or is part of the melee weapon traits.

This makes me really hopeful that the Melee-Fex is returning.

Also, with the Tau preview they mentioned fly means that they may disengage and still shoot. What are the chances that different armies have different meanings to Fly? For example, Tyranids may be they can fall back and then charge again instead of shooting.

wizerdree wrote:
They have now said that both the Trygon and The Swarmlord are capable of doing D6 wounds on a hit in melee and am wondering if this will be normal for all TMC or is part of the melee weapon traits.

This makes me really hopeful that the Melee-Fex is returning.

Also, with the Tau preview they mentioned fly means that they may disengage and still shoot. What are the chances that different armies have different meanings to Fly? For example, Tyranids may be they can fall back and then charge again instead of shooting.

Fly is a keyword so it'll have the same effect across multiple factions, otherwise you run into issues such as Tau having one version of Fly, and Assaults squads another, and one rule saying "Units with Fly Keyword get X" which is fine for Assault Squads but makes Battlesuits completely gamebreakingly powerful (like, emergency errata broken)

 Deadshot wrote:
Fly is a keyword so it'll have the same effect across multiple factions, otherwise you run into issues such as Tau having one version of Fly, and Assaults squads another, and one rule saying "Units with Fly Keyword get X" which is fine for Assault Squads but makes Battlesuits completely gamebreakingly powerful (like, emergency errata broken)

Hello to world of bespoken rules.

tneva82 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Fly is a keyword so it'll have the same effect across multiple factions, otherwise you run into issues such as Tau having one version of Fly, and Assaults squads another, and one rule saying "Units with Fly Keyword get X" which is fine for Assault Squads but makes Battlesuits completely gamebreakingly powerful (like, emergency errata broken)

Hello to world of bespoken rules.

Which solves the problem, but there are always universal special rules. For example, Fly is one of them, its a generic term for flying. Multiple units across different armies will get it, but it will be the same across all factions. This means for example when scenario or special rule X gives units with Fly a free shooting attack, Unit X with fly is fine, Unit Y doesn't become broken because their Special version of FLY gives them double the shots when they fly, so can fire twice out of sequence. That special unit will have a bespoke rule saying that it can disengage from combat in the same manner as fly and make a shooitng attack, but its not fly.

 Deadshot wrote:
Which solves the problem, but there are always universal special rules. For example, Fly is one of them, its a generic term for flying. Multiple units across different armies will get it, but it will be the same across all factions. This means for example when scenario or special rule X gives units with Fly a free shooting attack, Unit X with fly is fine, Unit Y doesn't become broken because their Special version of FLY gives them double the shots when they fly, so can fire twice out of sequence. That special unit will have a bespoke rule saying that it can disengage from combat in the same manner as fly and make a shooitng attack, but its not fly.

There won't be universal special rules anymore so...

tneva82 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Which solves the problem, but there are always universal special rules. For example, Fly is one of them, its a generic term for flying. Multiple units across different armies will get it, but it will be the same across all factions. This means for example when scenario or special rule X gives units with Fly a free shooting attack, Unit X with fly is fine, Unit Y doesn't become broken because their Special version of FLY gives them double the shots when they fly, so can fire twice out of sequence. That special unit will have a bespoke rule saying that it can disengage from combat in the same manner as fly and make a shooitng attack, but its not fly.

There won't be universal special rules anymore so...

Keywords are universal special rules if they use the same rule across multiple codexes. After all, how can "Fly" give one unit "Hit and Run" but in another codex it gives them +1 movement? It will either have to have the same effect across all armies or have a different name.

 Deadshot wrote:
Keywords are universal special rules if they use the same rule across multiple codexes. After all, how can "Fly" give one unit "Hit and Run" but in another codex it gives them +1 movement? It will either have to have the same effect across all armies or have a different name.

By having the fly rules in datasheet?

edit:

Q: Is "jink" still a thing in #NewHammer?
A: Remember, Ryan, there are no universal special rules in the new edition. If a unit can do anything that resembled the jink move of old, it will be specifically written on it's datasheet.

Ditto for bulky/very bulky. If there's equilavent that too will be on datasheet.

Don't expect much in terms of USR's. Best you can expect is very common faction specific rule like rubrics had.

tneva82 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Keywords are universal special rules if they use the same rule across multiple codexes. After all, how can "Fly" give one unit "Hit and Run" but in another codex it gives them +1 movement? It will either have to have the same effect across all armies or have a different name.

By having the fly rules in datasheet?

edit:

Q: Is "jink" still a thing in #NewHammer?
A: Remember, Ryan, there are no universal special rules in the new edition. If a unit can do anything that resembled the jink move of old, it will be specifically written on it's datasheet.

Ditto for bulky/very bulky. If there's equilavent that too will be on datasheet.

Don't expect much in terms of USR's. Best you can expect is very common faction specific rule like rubrics had.

Its not about the rule itself; its about other rules interacting with a rule. For example if "Fly" to use an example, gave Tau an ability to fall back from combat on a roll of 6, but gave, say, Gargoyles, an ability to shoot twice on the roll of a 6. Another rule saying "units with fly get to do Fly without rolling" then it would be giving much greater advantage where it wasn't supposed to.

All I'm saying is; consistancy. Why make Fly do this in this codex, and that in that codex, and not just give them different names.

Key words are unit types, not really what 7th ed USRs are.

Fly is the new Jumppack/jetpack/skimmer.


That being said, nids being immune to moral is bad for the game, as is anything but a very small hand full of units VERY rarely.

They could have made it synapse where was...

"Friendly tyranid units within range of a synapse creature use the ld attribute of the nearest synapse creature for all purposes. When a unit in synapse has to make a moral test only count half their casualties rounded up."

That means you need to kill 10 hormagaunts to risk loosing 1 to moral (d6+5-10). It makes Nids very good at moral without removing them from the core game mechanic entirely.

And if you want fluff, it's not them breaking and running because they are scared. It's the Hive Mind choosing to give up on that tactic because it's inefficient.

Ever see Aliens Directors Cut? Aliens are pouring into the hallway, sentry guns blasting. Aliens are dropping left and right. "They must be wall to wall in there". And eventually., with enough losses... they retreat.

Moral for nids in synapse could easily represent stranglers getting caught, or throwing themselves forward to cover the retreat. It's fluffy and it's better for the game.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Had a couple concerns about this.

First was: When the revealed the new morale, they said that few units would not feel the effects of morale, but that needed one gigantic asterisk - namely the entirety of the tyranid army.

Yes, you have to be in synapse, but that's generally pretty easy to accomplish.

I knew that synapse would do something, but outright army-wide immunity seems to go against their initial statement.

To be honest, though, my biggest concern isn't nids so much as space marines. Because if nids get army wide immunity, you know ATSKNF and who knows what else (except mob rule) will do the same.

My second concern was warriors. With terminators and frigging bolter marines (primaris, but still) getting an extra wound, I was shocked that warriors got nothing. I wasn't expecting a miracle, but at least an extra wound would have been nice, and reasonable.

The fact they didn't really has me concerned for nobz, and other multi wound infantry.

they DID say that certain units would provide mitigation factors for morale.

also warriors have 3 wounds, and without ID they're not exactly gonna be easy to put down. I mean they're gonna need heavy weapons. with ID being removed warriors are gonna be a LOT tougher. Reece specificly says they're more powerful

Keywords are now used for targeting for powers or effects. For example synapse will check for the keyword "tyranid" during morale phase. Or to see if something is able to be buffed it will check for the key word for that particular faction or unit type.

Don't think of keywords is rules. Think of them as triggers or checks for powers or abilities

 Lance845 wrote:
Key words are unit types, not really what 7th ed USRs are.

Fly is the new Jumppack/jetpack/skimmer.


That being said, nids being immune to moral is bad for the game, as is anything but a very small hand full of units VERY rarely.

They could have made it synapse where was...

"Friendly tyranid units within range of a synapse creature use the ld attribute of the nearest synapse creature for all purposes. When a unit in synapse has to make a moral test only count half their casualties rounded up."

That means you need to kill 10 hormagaunts to risk loosing 1 to moral (d6+5-10). It makes Nids very good at moral without removing them from the core game mechanic entirely.

And if you want fluff, it's not them breaking and running because they are scared. It's the Hive Mind choosing to give up on that tactic because it's inefficient.

Ever see Aliens Directors Cut? Aliens are pouring into the hallway, sentry guns blasting. Aliens are dropping left and right. "They must be wall to wall in there". And eventually., with enough losses... they retreat.

Moral for nids in synapse could easily represent stranglers getting caught, or throwing themselves forward to cover the retreat. It's fluffy and it's better for the game.

Xenomorphs don't have a dominating Hive Mind which surpresses all survival instincts. Xenomorphs are also reliant on hosts for breed where the Tyranids can simply send in rippers to clean up the dead and reconstitute them, so there is only minimal loss from the odd gaunt who is now floating around as vapourised Tyranid. Also, if you've seen that movie scene you'll also know that those guns were pretty much out of ammo after that, and the Xenomorphs a lot less numerous that Nids. One of the Nids tactics is "Spawn termagants, march forward, soak up bullets, rinse and repeat, send in the proper stuff when they have no more bullets left."

The Hive Mind is in total control of the situation, as long as there is synapse, there is no individual and they are totally under the control. Individual gaunts don't run off because their buddies got killed. Even outside of IB, Hormagaunts will just keep attacking with no regard for anything else, even casualties. The Hive Mind wants them to stay they stay, regardless of what's happening. That is more fluffy, and also better for the game as it forces you to target synapse first or wipe out a brood entirely (or enough to be non-threatening). Plus, with universal Split Fire its easy enough to have your 3 Lascannons aim for the Tyrant and the 1 Heavy Bolter try to cut down the Genestealers.

@BrianDavion

They did say mitigation, sure, but they also said that very few things would outright ignore morale. This is clearly not the case.

Removing ID does help things like warriors out a ton, sure, but in the era of 'give everything a tons of wounds' like AoS was and 8th seems to be, the lack of extra wounds is a bit worrisome.

I also think it's important to note that Nid creatures should be easier to kill in this edition due to the new 'to-wound' chart and multi-damage weapons. Bolters can now wound the MCs on 5+, for example.
And anti-tank weapons should do massive damage to the big bugs, vs only 1 wound like 7E.

We also do not know the range of Synapse. It could be only 6" for most creatures, with only Tyrants giving 12"
Even if it is 12" standard, it should not be that hard to kill a key creature from a flank and then go to town on the bugs that are now outside of Synapse.
Remember too that individual models can fire at different targets, so you can shoot the big guns at a few key Synapse critters, while your smalls arms fire strips some smaller bugs off a few units.

Overall I think the potential for Nids to be great is clearly there, but so is the potential for them to start crumbling.
This is how is should be.

-

 Galef wrote:
We also do not know the range of Synapse. It could be only 6" for most creatures, with only Tyrants giving 12"
Even if it is 12" standard, it should not be that hard to kill a key creature from a flank and then go to town on the bugs that are now outside of Synapse.
-

Might be harder than you think when they are far behind with congo line leading to them so that one guy is at the bubble range. Much like in AOS where that is standard method to protect characters from being sniped.

 Galef wrote:
I also think it's important to note that Nid creatures should be easier to kill in this edition due to the new 'to-wound' chart and multi-damage weapons. Bolters can now wound the MCs on 5+, for example.
And anti-tank weapons should do massive damage to the big bugs, vs only 1 wound like 7E.

They also have far more wounds and they benefit from the changes to armor, so it balances it out.

All I am saying is that Nids were Fearless in 7E and they were hardly top tier. Being "Fearless" in 8E doesn't really change anything.*
But now the opponent is far more rewarded getting units out of Synapse range.



*It seems people are just mad because they misunderstood what GW said about the new Morale system.

 Lance845 wrote:
That being said, nids being immune to moral is bad for the game, as is anything but a very small hand full of units VERY rarely.

Explain how and why synapse negating battleshock is detrimental to the game.

 Galef wrote:
All I am saying is that Nids were Fearless in 7E and they were hardly top tier. Being "Fearless" in 8E doesn't really change anything.*
But now the opponent is far more rewarded getting units out of Synapse range.

Umm there is big difference here. In 7th ed being fearless meant simply you didn't suffer issues when you lost combat. In 8th ed however there is no winner or loser in combat. There are simply casualties.

In 7th ed tyranids suffered 7 casualties and enemy lost 4. Tyranids lost and only they had something to worry about LD. With fearless that wasn't worry. Neither was situation bad for enemy either. They didn't take any test either.

8th ed tyranids still don't take test but enemy will be losing d6+4-LD models.

tneva82 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:
All I am saying is that Nids were Fearless in 7E and they were hardly top tier. Being "Fearless" in 8E doesn't really change anything.*
But now the opponent is far more rewarded getting units out of Synapse range.

Umm there is big difference here. In 7th ed being fearless meant simply you didn't suffer issues when you lost combat. In 8th ed however there is no winner or loser in combat. There are simply casualties.

In 7th ed tyranids suffered 7 casualties and enemy lost 4. Tyranids lost and only they had something to worry about LD. With fearless that wasn't worry. Neither was situation bad for enemy either. They didn't take any test either.

8th ed tyranids still don't take test but enemy will be losing d6+4-LD models

.

So just don't lose any models in combat against Nids...


.....just kidding. That's a fair point

I'd still say it makes sense for Nids and they needed that boost badly. Perhaps Synapse creatures are a good deal more expensive now

-