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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I hate Primaris, because they decide the Codex was a mistake.

I loved the flavor of a 5-man unit having small arms plus one special or heavy, and a 10man having one of each. And ASM squads. And Dev squads.

Primaris feel like DOWIII. It's just not what I want from my Marines.

Having one of each weapon looks like garbage on the table because it doesn't look cohesive, and is stupid for crunch and fluff.

Squad having different weapons is actually very realistic and been part of GW fluff so fluff is bad arqument...


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 Xenomancers wrote:

Easily the best looking marines ever produced in plastic. Anyone that doesn't like them is just but hurt or was anti marine in the first place. How could you not like these models?

Too big. They arent' space marine scale anymore. I want space marines. Not some new type of units. I can't even use them as count as space marines because for that the scale is off.

Nothing about 40k should be realistic. Even my military friends think the Tactical Marine weapon system is garbage.


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 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
I think the bodies are superb; the actual full boxes offer good poseability; shoulderpads, helmets, packs and weapons all scale up well (arms can work but can look too short). I think GW did a really good job in terms of allowing us to mod the basic body with all the gubbins we need to make them Our Guys ...

Easily the best looking marines ever produced in plastic. Anyone that doesn't like them is just but hurt or was anti marine in the first place. How could you not like these models?

It's very well painted but... how can you like a model like that????? It's ugly. Maybe with a bare head (I can't stand the helmet) and the cut of those wings and halo from his jump pack he may be ok.


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 Galas wrote:

Agressors and Intercessors aren't more boring than normal Terminators or Tacticals

I agree, in fact I've always been a supporter of independent SM chapters and never like vanilla ones, especially ultramarines.

Bare heads are the worst thing about any HQ model in the game.

C'mere lad the vlka want a word.

Primaris a text book example of most things wrong with 40k at the moment.
Boring kits that exist just to exist not included to introduce a new play style or fill a need. There basicly just replacements for original marines which either do the job slightly better or a lot worse on a case by case basis.

Then you have the floating bits box that is the Repulsive which appears to have been based off a small child's idea of a tank.

£25 for monopose HQ and character choices is horrific and proves new GW is just old GW with better PR.

The Primaris fluff is so bad that even Black Library would be embarrassed to publish it. The prime example is the "better call Cawl" effect any issue the Imperium has encountered in the last 10k years has been resolved by Cawl in a hundred years. GW have invented there own version of the "a wizard did it" trope.

Hopefully the next full army release has more to offer.

SeanDrake wrote:
The Primaris fluff is so bad that even Black Library would be embarrassed to publish it. The prime example is the "better call Cawl" effect any issue the Imperium has encountered in the last 10k years has been resolved by Cawl in a hundred years. GW have invented there own version of the "a wizard did it" trope.

Hopefully the next full army release has more to offer.

Yeah the idea of a tech priest (regardless of his station), bettering the accomplishments of the Emperor himself is rather baffling. The only argument I can think of is the Emperor saw his Legions could conquer worlds and decided that was good enough and stopped innovating (maybe he decided that one day he would need to get rid of them as he did with the Thunder Warriors and didn't want them to be too powerful so he built them handicapped). Then 40k rolls round and the galaxy is in a poor state and the Marine chapters can't turn the tide anymore so Cawl rolls out the Space Marine Space Marines. But the idea that he did something the Emperor couldn't somewhat destabilises the whole idea of the Emperor within the setting. Nevermind asking where he got all that gene-seed without any Chapters finding out and being furious...

"It's very well painted but... how can you like a model like that????? It's ugly. Maybe with a bare head (I can't stand the helmet) and the cut of those wings and halo from his jump pack he may be ok."

Thanks! To my eye proportions are really important. For that reason I just can't handle normal marines. Once you work out what their bodies would look like if you stripped their armour off, it's game over for me. I also don't like my MVPs wandering around without helmets on. Nothing screams 'headshot me!' like an exposed cranium.

I get people disliking the simplicity of the armour, but that's not a fault with the model, it's a 'fault' with the model I chose to make. I could have blinged the guy up to the eyeballs, but I prefer my marines to look like they could actually swing a sword without getting tangled up in ribbons, seals, fluting or baroque shenanigans. You wan't high-falutin' primaris? You can make them easily enough. The kit is very flexible, which was my main point: drop in whatever pads, adornments, helmets, packs you want, they all fit perfectly.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Having one of each weapon looks like garbage on the table because it doesn't look cohesive, and is stupid for crunch and fluff.

Just to point out a modern British army fireteam can carry 4 different weapons - SA80 A2, SA80 A2 with grenade launcher, L129A1 sharpshooter and some kind of light support weapon.

That's what really bothers me about the 'everyone carries the same gun'.

You should need only one RPG guy or one heavy machine gun guy or one plasma torch guy in a unit. There should be others in the unit as well, carrying 'basic' firearms.

I've always seen the Tac squad as being a unit where each member is an excellent stormtrooper. But a rifle isn't going to drop a tank, and an anti-tank weapon isn't going to pin the enemy. A missile launcher can do things a rifle can't, but a missile launcher is easily swarmed.

As such, the beauty of a Tac squad is that their basic members are great at the basic fighting, but they also carry the specialist weapons they need to do their job. Because a squad of 10 guys with missile launchers isn't gonna do much in many firefights. Neither is a squad of 10 guys with flamethrowers. But a squad with 1 missile launcher, 1 flamethrower, and 8 rifles is going to handle just about any firefight much better than a squad with 10 rifles.

So, to me, mixed weapons looks more cohesive.

To expound on that, I find 2 fully kitted Tac squads, one in a Rhino, one in a Pod, a Dev squad in back, an ASM squad alongside, being led by a Captain to be much more cohesive than the same points of naked Tac squads. Effectiveness aside, Marines are (in theory) a combined arms force. Hundreds of Guardsmen feels cohesive, but same points of naked Tacs.

 grouchoben wrote:
To my eye proportions are really important. For that reason I just can't handle normal marines. Once you work out what their bodies would look like if you stripped their armour off, it's game over for me.

Oh yes this! 1000 times this.

Since getting used to Primaris I simply can't deal with the odd, squat proportioned, legs splayed pose of old marines.

Well if it hasn't been mentioned yet, its rumored that the new Deathwatch codex will be heavily focused on Primaris. If true, could just be GW pushing money grab but it also be foreshadowing sunset of the squat marines.

Again, more than the fluff, it was Hastings mention of the gradual end of the squat marines that makes me think they are done. Hastings was 100% correct about everything in the End Times as well as the character sets and release schedules. In any event, what happened to Hastings? Haven't heard from him in ages.

I think that painted mini looks great!

Ta Primark!

The only thing I hate about primaris is their crunch *in the context of the rest of 8th ed". Too many AP modifiers, too many multi-damage weapons, and their primary anti-tank needs an expensive babysitter.

Fluff wise the Primaris could have been brought up better, model wise, I think they’re absolutely terrific. The scale looks much better compared to a guardmens and the design of the Mk 10 armor or whatever upgrades and overhauls what I saw as a rather flawed design.

I think it was either here or on reddit where someone did an in-depth review of the model plus the repulsor?

Like the Primaris basic Bolter now has a rail along the top for scopes and attachments.
They have a neck protector
Their greaves now have a, uh what do you call it? Covering the front of the knee region that was otherwise exposed.
Not to mention they have those extra plating around the hip connection area.
Their helmets are much more menacing than their old grillfaces.

All the upgrades to their armor make sense and feel all that much more immersive.

Lorewise yeah they're not that good. The way GW handled it could have used a lot of work. Still love the models.

 Lion of Caliban wrote:
Yeah the idea of a tech priest (regardless of his station), bettering the accomplishments of the Emperor himself is rather baffling. The only argument I can think of is the Emperor saw his Legions could conquer worlds and decided that was good enough and stopped innovating (maybe he decided that one day he would need to get rid of them as he did with the Thunder Warriors and didn't want them to be too powerful so he built them handicapped). Then 40k rolls round and the galaxy is in a poor state and the Marine chapters can't turn the tide anymore so Cawl rolls out the Space Marine Space Marines. But the idea that he did something the Emperor couldn't somewhat destabilises the whole idea of the Emperor within the setting. Nevermind asking where he got all that gene-seed without any Chapters finding out and being furious...

I've come to terms with that, honestly. The Emperor created Thunder Warriors, then iterated the design to create Space Marines... then he died. There's nothing to say that Space Marines were the ideal, final version (other than Imperial Cult dogma!) - they clearly have plenty of flaws, and an arms race never really ends.

There's also the "handicapped" factor, as you say. The Emperor obviously created other processes for building post-human super-soldiers that are far superior to Space Marines - just look at the Custodes. Marines were deliberately limited in their capabilities, for whatever reason, and Cawl might simply lack the vision and broader understanding to see why those limitations were a good idea in the first place. He's unrestricted by any concerns except "Make them as powerful as you can", since he doesn't have to restrain or govern them afterwards.

Not sure if this has already been said about the good ole marines we are so used to. But if primaris marines are suppose to be bigger than regular marines..... then are we not already disproportioned a bit? (i.e. should they be even bigger if these were true scaled as well?) I was following someone's blog who made true scale marines, but i never got to the part where he stood them side by side with a primaris marine. Now.... on to my actual comment, lol. Since marines are smaller, wouldn't it make sense NOT to discontinue them? Being bigger isn't nescessarily better in a ruined city environment where HUMANs populated those said buildings! Also, wouldn't you want a smaller marine on things like quick strike missions, recon, intermediary force, space hulks, not to mention they simply take up less space on starships and are smaller to hit outright? My point is, why wouldn't it make sense to repurpose our familiar space marines into special forces roles? Scouts get a marine squad leader or an entire specialty group of marines acting as scouts. I also think regular marines piloting the vehicles would make sense too. Anyway.... just my 2 cents.

I love the look of Primaris. I hate that I finished buying enough old Marines for a gladius formation a few months before 8th dropped.

Honestly there's going to be another wave of Primaris, my guess this fall seeing as how genaric leiutenants and the gravis captain are only in the box set and it's getting close to being a year now. I'm also willing to put money down on another wave of DG too since the blight hauler only comes in "easy to build" kits.

Regardless, for everyone against Primaris they are here to stay.

These guys are most likely a soft reset of Marines. Personally I think it would have been better to have just retconned Marines a little to shoehorn the new models in. Maybe Corvus succeeded or something...

Primaris Marines look proper facing down a scrawny fire warrior or a weak guardsmen (though they don't really crush them in melee or shooting but this point is appearance).

Dax415 wrote:
Not sure if this has already been said about the good ole marines we are so used to. But if primaris marines are suppose to be bigger than regular marines..... then are we not already disproportioned a bit? (i.e. should they be even bigger if these were true scaled as well?) I was following someone's blog who made true scale marines, but i never got to the part where he stood them side by side with a primaris marine. Now.... on to my actual comment, lol. Since marines are smaller, wouldn't it make sense NOT to discontinue them? Being bigger isn't nescessarily better in a ruined city environment where HUMANs populated those said buildings! Also, wouldn't you want a smaller marine on things like quick strike missions, recon, intermediary force, space hulks, not to mention they simply take up less space on starships and are smaller to hit outright? My point is, why wouldn't it make sense to repurpose our familiar space marines into special forces roles? Scouts get a marine squad leader or an entire specialty group of marines acting as scouts. I also think regular marines piloting the vehicles would make sense too. Anyway.... just my 2 cents.

Well fluffiwise they are supposed to be bigger and model wise they are too big. If they were same size as regular marines in fluff are they should be notably shorter to custodians which they aren't. They are too BIG to be regular space marines so they don't even work as count-as normal marines.

Custodians don't necessarily need to be taller than marines. When comparing to GW's human-sized models, Primaris and Custodes are scaled to be a bit over seven, maybe seven and half feet tall. I don't know how tall you think Custodes are, but that is the right size for marines.

As for the fluff, it is stupid, but remebering the Cursed Founding made me hate it a bit less. There have been attempts to improve marines before. So instead of thinking it as something that Cawl suddenly just made up by himself, I think it is as a gradual process of improvement, which is finally stable enough to work in large scale.

Custodians are supposed to be head taller than marines...So no those dont' work as count-as marines.

tneva82 wrote:
Custodians are supposed to be head taller than marines...So no those dont' work as count-as marines.

Supposed to according to whom? And even if that were true, then it would mean that the Custodes models are too short, as Primaris are properly marine-sized when compared to normal humans.

Personally, I love the aggressors (minus the dangly bits). The intercessors are okay.

I don't particularly like the new dreadnought. The Contemptors just look so much better, and there's something so iconic about the normal washing-machine dreadnought.

What bothers me is that there are a couple of fairly obvious deficiencies:

* There's no fast-delivery close combat troop--an assault squad equivalent
* There's no infantry heavy support unless you count hellblasters
* The transport options are far too limited and too expensive: the Repulsor is a Primaris Land Raider, but the Primaris marines need a Rhino and a Razorback.
* The Primaris options are all so monochromatic: they're like aspect warriors, with no basic troops.

As has been mentioned before, there's nothing akin to a modern fire-team, where there are at least 4 different weapons for different scenarios. The old tac-squads had that with 1 special, 1 combi/CCW, 1 heavy, 7 bolters. I dare say that they were modelled on modern fire teams.

I think that Primaris could be good, but that there are a few troop types missing.

I'm planning to pick up some aggressors and some intercessors to augment my Salamanders at some point. The thing that bothers me is that I can't work out which bolt rifles to equip them with, and they're not particularly switchable. I worry that I'll need 2 boxes of intercessors to field 2 MSU squads, but still have options: 2 bolt rifle, 1 stalker, 1 auto, choose 2.

I think that was their plan all along.

Annirak wrote:
Personally, I love the aggressors (minus the dangly bits). The intercessors are okay.

I don't particularly like the new dreadnought. The Contemptors just look so much better, and there's something so iconic about the normal washing-machine dreadnought.

What bothers me is that there are a couple of fairly obvious deficiencies:

* There's no fast-delivery close combat troop--an assault squad equivalent
* There's no infantry heavy support unless you count hellblasters
* The transport options are far too limited and too expensive: the Repulsor is a Primaris Land Raider, but the Primaris marines need a Rhino and a Razorback.
* The Primaris options are all so monochromatic: they're like aspect warriors, with no basic troops.

As has been mentioned before, there's nothing akin to a modern fire-team, where there are at least 4 different weapons for different scenarios. The old tac-squads had that with 1 special, 1 combi/CCW, 1 heavy, 7 bolters. I dare say that they were modelled on modern fire teams.

I think that Primaris could be good, but that there are a few troop types missing.

I'm planning to pick up some aggressors and some intercessors to augment my Salamanders at some point. The thing that bothers me is that I can't work out which bolt rifles to equip them with, and they're not particularly switchable. I worry that I'll need 2 boxes of intercessors to field 2 MSU squads, but still have options: 2 bolt rifle, 1 stalker, 1 auto, choose 2.

I think that was their plan all along.

Take a look at the Repulsors squres again, the chassis is on 2 and the turret is on its own so there's either going to be a less equipped version or one with bigger guns

GW didn't finish releasing primaris Marines by a longshot.

As for what to give your Intercessors, Bolt rifles are always the safe bet. Auto Bolt rifles really only perform better between 16"-24"

Yeah the Auto ones are terrible for the price and I might as well just use them on Reivers. At least Stalker pattern can change their focus.

If only the stalker variant let them target characters

The Repulsor needs babysitting, but can be a decent unit, unless you're playing on a bald tablw with no LoS, in which case it might blow up before it gets to do anything. Key candidate for your might of heroes buff, and the libby is probably riding on board anyway. Fly keyword is very handy for a transport.

But god yes, Primaris are crying out for a cheaper transport. Something clocking in around 150pts with less punch and a bit faster would be amazing - an upgunned Rhino or the like, following the Primaris model.

 fraser1191 wrote:
If only the stalker variant let them target characters

Yeah. It would be really solid that way and I would feel less weird modelling them with silencers. I have not built stalker intercessors yet, but having played several games with normal bolt rifle intercessors, I think my next squad will get stalkers. The weapon is not amazing, but I often find I have some backfield objective camper squad doing absolutely nothing the whole game as even with the 30 inch range they cannot reach anything. For a such a role stalkers are better.

 grouchoben wrote:
The Repulsor needs babysitting, but can be a decent unit, unless you're playing on a bald tablw with no LoS, in which case it might blow up before it gets to do anything. Key candidate for your might of heroes buff, and the libby is probably riding on board anyway. Fly keyword is very handy for a transport.

But god yes, Primaris are crying out for a cheaper transport. Something clocking in around 150pts with less punch and a bit faster would be amazing - an upgunned Rhino or the like, following the Primaris model.

Oh would it be awesome if they created a big boy Rhino...

Bharring wrote:
I doubt the Tacs that won tournies did not face tourney lists.

When 7th dropped, for instance, Tacs did an amazing Obsec spam, and that swept a number of tournies. I looked up one of the early 7th tournies, and 5 of the top 10 were Marines, 3 of those 5 were Tac spam.

It's stories like that that make it hard to discuss the true state of things. We had Tacs placing as 3 of the top 10, SM taking 5 of the top 10, and yet the forums were still abuzz about how weak Marines were.

And that wasn't even the high point of Marines in that edition.


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(those 3 weren't 'Lists with Tac Marines in them'. They were lists with 6 Tac squads.)

I think that had more to do with the formation than the viability of tactical marines.

If by "formation" you mean "CAD"?

This was one of the pre-Gladius Tac spam periods.

Bharring wrote:
If by "formation" you mean "CAD"?

This was one of the pre-Gladius Tac spam periods.

I thought you were talking about Gladius. My bad.