What units need points balances in CA?

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**gwarsh41**

Cinderspirit wrote:
Forgot Greater Daemons, they are overcosted as hell as well. Somewhere about 50-100 points too much I'd guess.

Thinking about it, points decrease is probably the best way. I would love a durability buff, but with stratagems, relics, and daemon traits, it starts to get into OP territory real fast. Though T7 across the board is pretty bland.

**Not Online!!!**

For those in favour of a guardsmen price increase:
This will just lead to conscripts beeing picked again.
A better solution would be to just implement the platoon again,
Either make it min 2 or 3-5 guardsmen squads per troop choice Slot. Additionally add expendable to conscripts which disallows them to fill troop taxes.
That way you have doubled or trippled cost for cp bateries whilest pure IG still is playable.
Ofcourse the same would be needed for R&h aswell as other fw guardregiments.
Additional to hit modifiers are exponentially worse to deal with with low hit chance units.
Take the regular -1 bs.
An ork loses half his shots, whilest a space marine with bs 3+ only loses 25% of his shooting.

**Martel732**

Models with 5+ armor should still cost 5 ppm.

**Not Online!!!**

Martel732 wrote:
Models with 5+ armor should still cost 5 ppm.

on what basis? Do explain that to me?
I'd like the full summary of why and how.
Additionally i'd like to point out that faction traits and relics are badly implemented respectively not costed according to their power.
IG guardsmen are not the problem, their trait and relic are.

**Vector Strike**

Blood Angels Slamguinius needs some kind of price increase, as the Custodes Shield-Captains on jetbikes.

On DA: reduce Dark Talon's price to 180. 160 was too cheap, but 200 is too expensive (nears the Eldar aircraft, and those are better than it)

**mokoshkana**

bananathug wrote:
Are you saying that the -4 to hit is okay because it is hard to get or are you just pointing out that it is a rather niche case? Even an imposed -3 (not taking into account -1 to hit in melee weapons or moving and firing heavy weapons) seems like it is too much.

Reading the rest of the post it seems like we are in agreement that imposed negatives to hit should cap at -2 and should be relatively hard to get (no more than a couple units per turn/phase)?

I'd say the army wide -1 to hits should be changed to a strat. Bonuses from strats do not stack (so only 1 bonus from a strat) no stacking bonuses from powers (although they would stack with strats) and cap max neg to hit at a -2 (before attacker imposed mods like moving or unwieldy weapons)?

So you could invest strats/powers to get units to -2 and could probably do several a turn but couldn't pump all of them into one unit making it impossible to hit? Would still make that stupid solitare a -3 (-2 from him and an imposed -1, not sure if I like it but it is what it is).

If we only allowed powers to work on/with units from the same faction/keyword it would help the stacking problem (no more eldar buffs on dark eldar/harlies) but this seems like a general step to resolve a specific problem (I'm not aware of other armies where this is a problem).

This is an incredibly niche case. Modifiers of -4 are so few and far between, that its really not a huge issue. Does it suck when you run into one? Yeah, but with a little planning you can beat them:
Alaitoc? Move within 12"
Lightning Fast Reactions? Shoot something else
Conceal? Only works on infantry/bikes and it can be denied
Rangers? Punch them
Shadow Specters? Okay, this one is pretty good, but at 33pts a model, they are a bit cost prohibitive.

Most of the time I read about people deriding negative hit modifiers, it usually involves the Aeldari player doing something incorrectly. Ask questions and demand to read the rules! Honestly, sometimes the Aeldari player can just make an innocent mistake themselves.

**Cinderspirit**

gwarsh41 wrote:
Cinderspirit wrote:
Forgot Greater Daemons, they are overcosted as hell as well. Somewhere about 50-100 points too much I'd guess.

Thinking about it, points decrease is probably the best way. I would love a durability buff, but with stratagems, relics, and daemon traits, it starts to get into OP territory real fast. Though T7 across the board is pretty bland.

Well I would love too see a 4++ on all Greater Daemons and 3++ on Lords of Change, so it wouldn't be a must to take the Armor of Scorn or Impossible Robe on them. But even with a 4++ I wouldn't see them worth their points right now. A Hive Tyrant with wings kinda is a Lord of Change with 4 Wounds less and costs 100 point less (Twin linked Devourers + Scything Talons). 4 Wounds can never be worth 100 points, also the Hive Tyrant has Deep Strike built in, ranged weapons, a 3+ armor, is faster, has a better morale boost rule, annoys enemy psykers and draws it's powers from a better table.

**chimeara**

akaean wrote:
chimeara wrote:

I'm curious as to your rationale behind the Scorpius and Leviathan points increase. I find the Scorpius to be overcosted for what it does.

Scorpius is a master of all trades type unit. The ability to double tap (for 6d3 shots), with a good profile (s6 Ap-2 2d) all while not requiring line of sight makes it a very difficult unit to counter play- especially if the user isn't brain dead and uses a screen. Even if the enemy manages to close, the Scorpius can still fight and possibly heal itself with a respectable melee attack. Its currently just a bit too cheap for the damage it can cause reliably and outside of line of sight.

the Leviathan is likewise just a bit too bulky and its wargear is a bit too good. The Grav Flux is an insane weapon, and even the Butcher Cannons are very strong. I will agree that the Leviathan is very pricey currently, but either it, or its war gear need to be hiked a little bit to more accurately represent what it is capable of. I think the space marine leviathan is in for the same treatment. The truth is, if you have a Leviathan, and you have the points, you will almost always field it instead of two or even three smaller dreads. Because the leviathan is both more durable (thanks to the invulnerable save), and has access to far superior weapons. Its probably the most overcentralized forgeworld unit currently. Leviathan (alongside Fire Raptor) is right now the poster boy for the Forgeworld still OP crowds, and it is so for a reason.

That said, lots of stuff in Forgeworld could use a serious point decrease. Titans and other super heavies are horrible after Chapter Approved 2017. a 2000 point Warhound Titan is a joke. 666 points for Zarakynel is about 100 points overpriced. Hellwright on Dark Abeyant should cost roughly 130 points (as opposed to 170 or so). Forgeworld in general needs a lot of work in price re balancing, mostly points decreases but I stand by Leviathan and Scorpius needing at least a small increase..

Solid argument! Well said. I will however agree to disagree. I think Scorpius is good don't get me wrong, I just don't think it's that good. 217 points is a bunch.

I will agree that the Leviathan might need a second look.

**niv-mizzet**

Captain hammer doesn’t need an increase. He eats a relic, possibly a warlord trait if you want 4 damage or better fnp, and then a metric ton of CP to function. Using him generally means that the rest of your army has to function without CP because he hogs it all.

And then he dies because he’s a little 5 wound marine standing out in the open.

**casvalremdeikun**

niv-mizzet wrote:
Captain hammer doesn’t need an increase. He eats a relic, possibly a warlord trait if you want 4 damage or better fnp, and then a metric ton of CP to function. Using him generally means that the rest of your army has to function without CP because he hogs it all.

And then he dies because he’s a little 5 wound marine standing out in the open.

Precisely. He REQUIRES no less than 4 CP (Visions, Wings of Fire, Descent of Angels) to even do what he does. Sure, if you have ANOTHER Character running around with Veritas Vitae (one more CP down the drain), you might save on a couple CP, but the fact the Captain is one build that costs a ton to function already is a good enough reason to leave him alone.

**Elbows**

You're discussing a fundamental problem with people trying to apply mathhammer to a system involving relics, stratagems, etc.

You can make a lot of units do some filthy stuff, and people will decry the unit - not the spell that was cast on them, the two heroes nearby putting out an aura, the command points spent on a stratagem etc. That stuff is never factored into the math, just the base points cost of the unit.

And I'm speaking as a narrative player - I understand there are some really powerful, potent combinations in the game, but many of them are tying up 500-600 points of models on the table just to do X, Y or Z. That definitely needs consideration when condemning the receiving unit.

**spacewolved**

Nerf nothing. I'm tired of painting/assembling models only to have them nerfed a month later.

What would be nice is to receive buffs on a ton of things that have already been mentioned.

**Sunny Side Up**

niv-mizzet wrote:
Captain hammer doesn’t need an increase. He eats a relic, possibly a warlord trait if you want 4 damage or better fnp, and then a metric ton of CP to function. Using him generally means that the rest of your army has to function without CP because he hogs it all.

And then he dies because he’s a little 5 wound marine standing out in the open.

Sure he does. If you see the model significantly more often than other HQ choices .. say a Chaplain in Terminator armour or maybe Tycho or whatever, it means the balance is off.

Need to adjust until all choices are equally attractive.

**Not Online!!!**

I belive the main problem is within the faction traits.
They don't cost points but they can have massive impacts on the balance:
Alpha Legionares, compared to other CSM get through their trait an additional 1/6th durability atleast. (Depending on their opponents BS they get more durability.)
Alaitoc Guardians get the same etc.
Yet they cost the same as other Counterparts, even if they got a rule that is massively superior to other faction traits.
Additionally certain Warlord Traits are massive compared to others but still don't affect the pricetag, leading to a disparity between price and effectiveness of the unit on the field.
Worse are Stratagems,they range from:
Mehh,
Bad,
Extra equipment options that got cut

to
Doubleshooting on slaaneshmodels, inherently strenghtening mark of slaanesh at no additional price
additional Movement
Infiltration
etc.

Again those Stratagems are not costed accordingly and aslong as certain armies get acess to CP's on the cheap or the infamous CP farm of IG doesn't get nerfed they will inherently unbalance any attempt at balance before we even beginn to change pts, simlpy because they lost their pricetag.

And if said CP' Farm get's nerfed via regular price increase for Guardsmen that will only lead to the problem that mono IG get's punished for the problem soup causes.
Granted CP should not be farmable, but that is another debate, because literally half the Stratagems could be additional equipment. (AA rockets for rocketlaunchers for exemple, Grenadiers as an upgrade for IG Veterans, etc.)

**McMagnus Mindbullets**

spacewolved wrote:
Nerf nothing. I'm tired of painting/assembling models only to have them nerfed a month later.

What would be nice is to receive buffs on a ton of things that have already been mentioned.

Ah, but you see, then we spiral down into the 7th hellhole of everything being way OP. that is not fun. This also means that whatever is buffed will become way better than what you painted so that unit becomes redundant. I think GW are doing it right by tweaking points and rewording rules to RAI.

**Ice_can**

McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
spacewolved wrote:
Nerf nothing. I'm tired of painting/assembling models only to have them nerfed a month later.

What would be nice is to receive buffs on a ton of things that have already been mentioned.

Ah, but you see, then we spiral down into the 7th hellhole of everything being way OP. that is not fun. This also means that whatever is buffed will become way better than what you painted so that unit becomes redundant. I think GW are doing it right by tweaking points and rewording rules to RAI.

Also people keep saying that first turn advantage is too great by making things more damage output instead of nerfing things we just end up with the gaming be decieded by who goes first as after turn 1 your fighting back with half an army.

Things need to be nerfed if the game is going to have any chance of moving away from turn 1 turn 2 blowouts.

**niv-mizzet**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
niv-mizzet wrote:
Captain hammer doesn’t need an increase. He eats a relic, possibly a warlord trait if you want 4 damage or better fnp, and then a metric ton of CP to function. Using him generally means that the rest of your army has to function without CP because he hogs it all.

And then he dies because he’s a little 5 wound marine standing out in the open.

Sure he does. If you see the model significantly more often than other HQ choices .. say a Chaplain in Terminator armour or maybe Tycho or whatever, it means the balance is off.

Need to adjust until all choices are equally attractive.

You’re overlooking the possibility that he’s run because he is well costed and the other options need to get boosted, or that some units could be comparatively balanced but not channel CP as well as he can.

**Cynista**

Seems like pretty much every army has at least a few units that need serious work, due to poor internal balance.

As for Necrons, well.... we need a moderate price drop across the board really. The amount we can currently put on the board compared to other armies is disheartening

For me the main ones to look at are:

- Monolith and Obelisk, both need significant point drops or buffs
- Flyers, again both need large point drops but even that won't save them, they're truly awful
- Flayed Ones need a 2-3 point reduction
- Wraiths need a 5-10 point reduction
- Spyders need a 10 point reduction at LEAST. I haven't seen a single person use one in 8th
- Every FW model needs a 10% point reduction

Martel732 wrote:

Need to go up:

Necron destroyers.
Doomsday arks.
Destroyer lords.
C'tan Shards.

Difficult to take this seriously. Especially Destroyer Lords... As for the others, they are literally our only decent units, which will be why you see them a lot. It doesn't mean they are undercosted. 50 points for a Destroyer is more than enough

**niv-mizzet**

Ice_can wrote:
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
spacewolved wrote:
Nerf nothing. I'm tired of painting/assembling models only to have them nerfed a month later.

What would be nice is to receive buffs on a ton of things that have already been mentioned.

Ah, but you see, then we spiral down into the 7th hellhole of everything being way OP. that is not fun. This also means that whatever is buffed will become way better than what you painted so that unit becomes redundant. I think GW are doing it right by tweaking points and rewording rules to RAI.

Also people keep saying that first turn advantage is too great by making things more damage output instead of nerfing things we just end up with the gaming be decieded by who goes first as after turn 1 your fighting back with half an army.

Things need to be nerfed if the game is going to have any chance of moving away from turn 1 turn 2 blowouts.

Buffs aren’t always offense-related.

And if everything was OP nothing would be.

**spacewolved**

McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
spacewolved wrote:
Nerf nothing. I'm tired of painting/assembling models only to have them nerfed a month later.

What would be nice is to receive buffs on a ton of things that have already been mentioned.

Ah, but you see, then we spiral down into the 7th hellhole of everything being way OP. that is not fun. This also means that whatever is buffed will become way better than what you painted so that unit becomes redundant. I think GW are doing it right by tweaking points and rewording rules to RAI.

Sure? Most of the units people complain about are tournament staples. Of which I would guess, the people complaining don't attend. Also we are talking about 20+ units spread over 8 codexs? Seems like a pretty diverse field. So yea, let's nerf all that and inevitably miss something, so we have one army crushing things. That makes much more sense than buffing some underperforming units and making the field even more diverse in tournaments.

**Trollbert**

niv-mizzet wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
spacewolved wrote:
Nerf nothing. I'm tired of painting/assembling models only to have them nerfed a month later.

What would be nice is to receive buffs on a ton of things that have already been mentioned.

Ah, but you see, then we spiral down into the 7th hellhole of everything being way OP. that is not fun. This also means that whatever is buffed will become way better than what you painted so that unit becomes redundant. I think GW are doing it right by tweaking points and rewording rules to RAI.

Also people keep saying that first turn advantage is too great by making things more damage output instead of nerfing things we just end up with the gaming be decieded by who goes first as after turn 1 your fighting back with half an army.

Things need to be nerfed if the game is going to have any chance of moving away from turn 1 turn 2 blowouts.

Buffs aren’t always offense-related.

This is so true. Played against Necrons a lot lately with my Death Guard and the level of killyness is about perfect. After 6 turns, both of us had about 50% of our units left. The game should not end with one of the players tabled in most cases.

**ERJAK**

Literally 3/4ths of all the units in the game need a boost. Since you're stuck with only 3 of each unit now it's absolutely necessary that GW go completely against type and give each faction MULTIPLE units that aren't trash.

**Zid**

Points tweeks....

* Reduce Greater Demon points across the board (they all cost too much)
* Slight reduction in all Marine Chassis troops (Plague Marines, Rubrics, Tacs, etc.) to make them more viable
* Slight points increase in Guardsmen, cultists, ya know... all the horde units that people mando-pick because everything else is too costly for what it does.
* Slight points decrease in Gnarlmaw; I think a 35 point hike was a bit much
* Maulerfields and Forgefiend price decreases, same with Soul Grinder (all are extremely expensive for what they do)
* Tweeks to Ynarri... their tricks are still pretty OP comparitively, but I don't see this happening until Ynarri dex
* Points increase in Captains, or at least some captain options. Smash captains are really, REALLY powerful for how cheap they are. Either tweek captain points across the board, or tweek the cost of some options (even 5-10 points means a bit)
* Warp Bolter added as an option to all demon princes for 3 points (as opposed to 9 points, and its only usable by certain codexes)
* Necron options getting a pretty universal points cut, except vaults need to be increased or limited to being 1 per army. Vault spam, while expensive costwise, is extremely powerful.
* Speaking of which... I think Lords of War should be limited to 1 per army unless utilizing certain codexes (IK, Renegade Knights). I love Magnus and Mortarian, but it shouldn't be a "thing" to have multiple primarchs in the same army.

Just a few ideas

**ERJAK**

spacewolved wrote:
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
spacewolved wrote:
Nerf nothing. I'm tired of painting/assembling models only to have them nerfed a month later.

What would be nice is to receive buffs on a ton of things that have already been mentioned.

Ah, but you see, then we spiral down into the 7th hellhole of everything being way OP. that is not fun. This also means that whatever is buffed will become way better than what you painted so that unit becomes redundant. I think GW are doing it right by tweaking points and rewording rules to RAI.

Sure? Most of the units people complain about are tournament staples. Of which I would guess, the people complaining don't attend. Also we are talking about 20+ units spread over 8 codexs? Seems like a pretty diverse field. So yea, let's nerf all that and inevitably miss something, so we have one army crushing things. That makes much more sense than buffing some underperforming units and making the field even more diverse in tournaments.

I agree with your overall point but I do have to say that that's not at all a diverse field relative the actual number of units/books in the game. There are 20ish codexes out now and about a half dozen index factions with what...500, 600 total units in the game? 40% of codexes is at least mediocre but 3-4% of units is super weak(and the exact same level of diversity we saw pre rule of 3 as well, that rule proves itself more useless every event that comes out.)

**Formosa**

Deathwing get there own detachment of 6 elite and 5 cp, same with ravenwing, so basically they are the same as standard detachments, this will allow pure ravenwing and Deathwing armies to have a decent amount of Cp.

Price drop on all terminators.

Price drop on most ravenwing units bar the flyers.

Removal or change of most of the leadership rules dark angels have, the redundancy is overwhelming.

Price increase on the dark shroud specifically.

Large price drop on all FW Marine super heavies

Chapter tactics affect all units in the army except flyers.

Drop All Land raiders back down to 250pts OR give them the same super heavy rule that allows them to pull out of combat and fire.

Controversial part here.

All space marine vehicles and infantry ignore the -1 to hit for heavy weapons, this reinforces the fast hard hitting nature of marines, without giving them the pure speed of eldar.

Rework ATSKNF, in its current state it’s pointless, not sure how to fix it.

Lower non primaris marines to 10pts OR buff them to be worth the current cost/damage/survival ratio

**Zid**

Formosa wrote:
Deathwing get there own detachment of 6 elite and 5 cp, same with ravenwing, so basically they are the same as standard detachments, this will allow pure ravenwing and Deathwing armies to have a decent amount of Cp.

Price drop on all terminators.

Price drop on most ravenwing units bar the flyers.

Removal or change of most of the leadership rules dark angels have, the redundancy is overwhelming.

Price increase on the dark shroud specifically.

Large price drop on all FW Marine super heavies

Chapter tactics affect all units in the army except flyers.

Drop All Land raiders back down to 250pts OR give them the same super heavy rule that allows them to pull out of combat and fire.

Controversial part here.

All space marine vehicles and infantry ignore the -1 to hit for heavy weapons, this reinforces the fast hard hitting nature of marines, without giving them the pure speed of eldar.

Rework ATSKNF, in its current state it’s pointless, not sure how to fix it.

Lower non primaris marines to 10pts OR buff them to be worth the current cost/damage/survival ratio

I agree with most of this, definitely not the -1 to hit though (especially for vehicles); I play Chaos Space Marines, and I think removing that would be... really bad for balance.

**Formosa**

Yeah that’s why I said its controversial, thing is it doesn’t make too much difference, all of our heavy weapons can reach out and touch people turn 1 anyway, the only time it comes into play is when the enemy gets close, I want it to encourage actual movement, there is zero point to moving preds, dreads, Land speeders etc. Right now... especially Land speeders.

**Moriarty**

All units need to double in points.

(Ducks)

Then some need to be reduced. Currently, the pressure to reduce points as a balancing mechanism leads to packed tables & less tactical play.

**Tyel**

niv-mizzet wrote:
Buffs aren’t always offense-related.

And if everything was OP nothing would be.

Yeah but it would also make the game very boring if whoever got first turn automatically won.

Really units shouldn't be expecting to get 40% of their points back in a turn, but I fear that ship has sailed.

**tneva82**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
niv-mizzet wrote:
Captain hammer doesn’t need an increase. He eats a relic, possibly a warlord trait if you want 4 damage or better fnp, and then a metric ton of CP to function. Using him generally means that the rest of your army has to function without CP because he hogs it all.

And then he dies because he’s a little 5 wound marine standing out in the open.

Sure he does. If you see the model significantly more often than other HQ choices .. say a Chaplain in Terminator armour or maybe Tycho or whatever, it means the balance is off.

Need to adjust until all choices are equally attractive.

But then you also raise cost of captains without those.

Thanks gw for going non-scalable arsed system of relics and strategems

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Moriarty wrote:
All units need to double in points.

(Ducks)

Then some need to be reduced. Currently, the pressure to reduce points as a balancing mechanism leads to packed tables & less tactical play.

Would also give more room to tweak points.

But gw would also triple point level