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 ChargerIIC wrote:
This is the problem. Whenever people talk about Horus Heresy a bunch of people stick their heads out of the sand long enough to proclaim everything is fine and then stick them right back in. 7th Edition is probably one of the most hated editions in 40k's history and HH does not benefit from clinging to it. It's makes an already difficult hobby entry process neigh-impossible for anyone but the most dedicated and income heavy of players - a niche it can now fight with Adeptus Titanicus players over.

Don't be so hard on AT. You can (or at least will be able to within two weeks) get a very solid (~1700 points) AT Axiom Maniple for about $300 retail -- Warlord, two Reavers, two Warhounds. All the terminals and such that you need to field that come in the basic rules pack. And 15%+ discounts are obviously available from retailers.

HH has a much more challenging price point, especially with the discounted boxed games going away.

 CragHack wrote:
30k does not need to be streamlined, it’s fine. The reasons we started playing 30k here, was not only because we love the setting, but we see the whole ruleset as vastly superior to the mortal wound shitstorm 8th is.

Give me mortal wounds any day over hour long arguments over where the stupid plastic plates actually landed, phosphex spam, custodian nonsense, and me having to spend 20 minutes making sure my tank is triggonmetrically perfect so as to not waste a chance to shoot.

Oh my god, we have to THINK before moving or shooting ! What a boring game..
Phosphex and custodian spam is not due to 7th ed, but because of their own rules
30k has always been expensive, and it never killed it. It became temporarily cheaper, now it is back to normal.

 godardc wrote:
Oh my god, we have to THINK before moving or shooting ! What a boring game..
Phosphex and custodian spam is not due to 7th ed, but because of their own rules
30k has always been expensive, and it never killed it. It became temporarily cheaper, now it is back to normal.

I don't object to thinking and planning. I object to the the massive amount of argumets it causes, just like with templates when dealing with players who want to try and rules lawyer their way into a win, which I've noticed happens a massive amount in the 30K community. They're definitely WAAC types by in large.

 godardc wrote:
Oh my god, we have to ARGUE before moving or shooting ! What a boring game..
Phosphex and custodian spam is not due to 7th ed, but because of their own rules
30k has always been expensive, and it never killed it. It became temporarily cheaper, now it is back to normal.

Fixed.

HH had a temporary upsurge in popularity because the shared base ruleset made it at least a little easier to get into the game. That's gone and I think GW can keep it in maintenance mode for the rest of it's life - which is apparently what the playerbase wants.

That's not true: how many players played WFB and 40k ? How many play AOS and 40k ? How many play Infinity and 40k ? Etc...
Not sharing the same rules has never stopped people to play different games.

 godardc wrote:
That's not true: how many players played WFB and 40k ? How many play AOS and 40k ? How many play Infinity and 40k ? Etc...
Not sharing the same rules has never stopped people to play different games.

No but it effect popularity and in the end longevity.

As i said while 7th might be okay but actually finishing reading the rulebook is feat in itself. It is not a benefit.

 godardc wrote:
That's not true: how many players played WFB and 40k ? How many play AOS and 40k ? How many play Infinity and 40k ? Etc...
Not sharing the same rules has never stopped people to play different games.

It's about entry points. You want to get started in Warmachine? You buy a starter box and show up to league night. You have the dice, rulebook, cards, and enough models for a quick game. X-Wing requires a starter kit and maybe 2-3 models to get rolling. 40k requires the battle primer, about 500 points of models (a starter kit and a couple boxes) and some dice. If you pay for the big starter box (Dark Imperium) you can show up on league night and be good to go. It's hefty but not bad.

Without jumping-off games, HH has a really high bar. You need $300-ish dollars worth of models, a $60 rulebook, and $15 worth of templates. In 40k 7th edition you could drastically reduce this by bringing your tactical marines, your knowledge of 7th edition rules, and the dice/templates you already owned. Mentally it was a simple jump, and financially you could build up easily.

Now lets assume you are a new (eight edition) 40k player. You have no mental connection point for the 7th ed style rules. You are far less likely to have tactical marines and you're gonna need that 60$ rulebook.

Hell, let's check. I'm a new eighth edition player and those are my exact reasons for not wanting to get into HH. You seem to be an experienced HH player, did you play HH or 40k first?

 ChargerIIC wrote:
HH had a temporary upsurge in popularity because the shared base ruleset made it at least a little easier to get into the game. That's gone and I think GW can keep it in maintenance mode for the rest of it's life - which is apparently what the playerbase wants.

And maybe they're right...at least for what HH is and what they need it to be going forward. Even sticking with 7th, FW seems to struggle to support HH. To be fair, it's a small team. Hitching the HH wagon permanently to 40K -- with 40K's frequent edition changes and 30K's beautiful but insane coffee table books -- is probably more than they could ever handle.

What's more, FW has Specialist Games now...they don't need HH to be the big dog and pay all the bills. And SGs come with *real* deadlines instead of FW deadlines. AND let's not forget that many of the HH models can be marketed for 40K through the indices. They don't need HH rules to sell them.

So maybe it makes perfect business sense to avoid the ratrace that comes with keeping the game 'current', and focus on supporting the niche group(s) of collectors, disgruntled 7th edition fans, and diehards who'll stick with you forever so long as nothing changes. That crowd will keep buying the primarch$ and Mastadon$ and Warlord Titan$. I don't think it's a coincidence that they're rolling out new tanks even as they cut basic items aimed more at beginning players. You can see the plan there if you connect a few dots.

Stinks for those of us who love the setting and models, but want a more modern-feeling game and a growing player base, of course. In the meantime, we have a great fan project. And down the road it's possible that the AoD ruleset evolves and adapts the best elements of 8th/9th/whatever.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
did you play HH or 40k first?

40k first !
But still, I had to buy the two red rules books before jumping to AoD (I don't remember, I think it was 64€ for the two). I understand what you mean, indeed, but 30k is a long way to go, you don't come and buy an army, it is not 40k. You spend time acquiring new models, painting them etc... it is really the luxury product of GW, and I think people forgot it because of BaC, and thought it was going full 40k in scale. I don't know if it would have been better that way, I definitely NEED more players in my areas, but I am pretty confident that with all the new specialist games, the infortunate death of Alan Blight (rest in peace, Alan) and the impulse 8th ed (I want to be clear: I like 8th) gave 40k, it was not the time for 30k. 2019 or 2020 will see a renew of it.

It is not just an other game or an expansion, it's almost a different take on the Hobby I guess

 Togusa wrote:

 CragHack wrote:
30k does not need to be streamlined, it’s fine. The reasons we started playing 30k here, was not only because we love the setting, but we see the whole ruleset as vastly superior to the mortal wound shitstorm 8th is.

Give me mortal wounds any day over hour long arguments over where the stupid plastic plates actually landed, phosphex spam, custodian nonsense, and me having to spend 20 minutes making sure my tank is triggonmetrically perfect so as to not waste a chance to shoot.

Well, it's your problem that you can't play by 'the most important rule', then. Never had to argue on where the blast has landed, or make some over complicated trigonometrical calculations

 CragHack wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 CragHack wrote:
30k does not need to be streamlined, it’s fine. The reasons we started playing 30k here, was not only because we love the setting, but we see the whole ruleset as vastly superior to the mortal wound shitstorm 8th is.

Give me mortal wounds any day over hour long arguments over where the stupid plastic plates actually landed, phosphex spam, custodian nonsense, and me having to spend 20 minutes making sure my tank is triggonmetrically perfect so as to not waste a chance to shoot.

Well, it's your problem that you can't play by 'the most important rule', then. Never had to argue on where the blast has landed, or make some over complicated trigonometrical calculations

If you play with bad people, they will be bad players whatever the rules are, indeed. My friends were good people in 7th, they are still in 8th, and I won't play in 8th against the people I avoided in 7th.
The most important rule is, well, the most important. Just roll a die !

 Togusa wrote:


I don't object to thinking and planning. I object to the the massive amount of argumets it causes, just like with templates when dealing with players who want to try and rules lawyer their way into a win, which I've noticed happens a massive amount in the 30K community. They're definitely WAAC types by in large.

Not definitely WAAC types at all, its all anecdotal, I dont play 40k now because all the 40k players I have met since I came back top the hobby are all WAAC types, when I do play I play 30k or BB because all the people I meet there that play those games are in it for the fluff and the enjoyment of the game, see what I did there ?

 CragHack wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 CragHack wrote:
30k does not need to be streamlined, it’s fine. The reasons we started playing 30k here, was not only because we love the setting, but we see the whole ruleset as vastly superior to the mortal wound shitstorm 8th is.

Give me mortal wounds any day over hour long arguments over where the stupid plastic plates actually landed, phosphex spam, custodian nonsense, and me having to spend 20 minutes making sure my tank is triggonmetrically perfect so as to not waste a chance to shoot.

Well, it's your problem that you can't play by 'the most important rule', then. Never had to argue on where the blast has landed, or make some over complicated trigonometrical calculations

Neither did I. But if you ever played in a 7th edition tournament, you should be familiar with all the sleazy ways people attempted to abuse templates, the scatter dice, armor facing, weapon arcs.

I am SO happy that is all gone, left in the past. My games since have been 100% better!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rayvon wrote:

 Togusa wrote:


I don't object to thinking and planning. I object to the the massive amount of argumets it causes, just like with templates when dealing with players who want to try and rules lawyer their way into a win, which I've noticed happens a massive amount in the 30K community. They're definitely WAAC types by in large.

Not definitely WAAC types at all, its all anecdotal, I dont play 40k now because all the 40k players I have met since I came back top the hobby are all WAAC types, when I do play I play 30k or BB because all the people I meet there that play those games are in it for the fluff and the enjoyment of the game, see what I did there ?

Still doesn't change my experience with the group of players I've encountered. And the rules are a different story too. I went back and tried to play HH after having spent about 4 months immersed in 40K. I couldn't do it. It was almost physically painful for me to mess with that clunky rules set, having to juggle dozens of keywords for my Ultramarine units, remembering warlord traits, chapter traits, RoW abilities, individual model abilities, all with no decent data sheets to make quick use of. I mean hell there were rules I never even use, such as "challenges" because I never remembered they even existed. It was a pain to have to carry around both red books, the basic 7th edition rule book, templates, all in addition to the massive amount of resin you need to effectively play the game. No thank you.

As I have said numerous times, HH is dead to me, permanently. They had a chance to go back and fix this, but they haven't, and the time has passed, I sold everything and reinvested elsewhere. I hope those who do like the game continue to get enjoyment out of it. But given what I have personally seen, the game is drying up fast. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, three separate groups in my local area, a total of about 35 people sold their stuff and bailed last August. That isn't a non-trivial thing to have happen, and I have heard similar stories from across the US. That's huge, especially given how small the community is as a whole. For those few people in my area that didn't sell out of the game, they constantly complain about never being able to find even a friendly game. It will only be a matter of time until they just up an bail as well.

There hasn't even been a book or model release that I am aware of in over a year, correct? Book 8 was supposed to be out last christmas, but as far as I know, it's still in the wind with no solid date.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean think of it another way, this is what I think is the biggest issue with the game.

I have two friends; Peter and Jennifer. Peter and Jennifer both like board-gaming and Science Fiction, so I've brought them down to my local gaming store in Tucson, "Anna's Awesome Comics and Games"

Rashid is a local gamer who has a great looking Iron Warriors Legion, he's spent months assembling, painting and basing and testing out different RoW lists. He's quite proud of his investment, but there aren't very many people who play and that makes it hard for him to get in lots of games in the area.

Rashid then rationally wants to try and get Jennifer and Peter to join him in the HH game.

I, as a person advocating for 8th edition can go over to the store wall, and show them a wealth of miniature kits, codexes, dice and other materials related to 40K.

Rashid only can pull out his phone and show them pictures of models from a website. Anna can't order those models to sell to Jenn and Peter. There is no potential discount for Jenn and Peter. They cannot look at the rule books in the store, unless they're able to get with Rashid or another player and look at their books.

Do you see where I am going with this? Because honestly I think given time I could let everything else go, except for this issue right here.

And this doesn't even make the case for the fact that you can buy a Primaris army for around 1100$ at 3K points, vs. a HH Legion at 3K points for close to 1700$. That is assuming you're trying to mirror units as closely as possible and keeping the number of items bought also as close as possible.

So why blame the system, when it's the douchebags who are to be blamed? :O Nevermind, I just read your previous post. Let's just end it here, with you having your opinion and me having mine

 Togusa wrote:

 CragHack wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 CragHack wrote:
30k does not need to be streamlined, it’s fine. The reasons we started playing 30k here, was not only because we love the setting, but we see the whole ruleset as vastly superior to the mortal wound shitstorm 8th is.

Give me mortal wounds any day over hour long arguments over where the stupid plastic plates actually landed, phosphex spam, custodian nonsense, and me having to spend 20 minutes making sure my tank is triggonmetrically perfect so as to not waste a chance to shoot.

Well, it's your problem that you can't play by 'the most important rule', then. Never had to argue on where the blast has landed, or make some over complicated trigonometrical calculations

Neither did I. But if you ever played in a 7th edition tournament, you should be familiar with all the sleazy ways people attempted to abuse templates, the scatter dice, armor facing, weapon arcs.

I am SO happy that is all gone, left in the past. My games since have been 100% better!

Holy hell, the amount of hacks commenting that have never played an actual game of 30k is staggering.

Here's a basic fact;
7th 30k is not 7th 40k!

7th was always a good edition, but it was the crap 40k formations and terrible codex after terrible codex that ruined 7th for 40k. 30k did a great job of utilizing said rules to make a great game. Of course it has issues too, but those issues are isolated and are easily curbed by the community. 4 don't have an underpinning trash foundation that 7th 40k did.

Custodes a problem, take a 25% point tax as is advocated by most of the global heresy community. Problem solved. Do you know how many times Iv had an issue with someone when it comes to phospex placement or template shenanigans?

Literally never. 30k for whatever reason just doesn't have the same amount of toxic dbags that 40k does. Maybe because the player base is older because of the higher buy in price of the game, or maybe because its more of a narrative game, but for whatever reason the community is simply better, friendlier, and fairer.

The funniest thing to me is how 8th ed advocates are so entitled. With what happened and is happening its clear that 7th ed, or in this case AoD 1st ed clearly has a market out there for it.
As does 8th, but 8th ed has a game already, 40k. Why do you feel so entitled that you should have two games?

At the end of the day its a business and its all about making money, and leaving an entire segment of the market out to dry by switching to 8th is poor business.

The market needs for 8th are being filled with *gasp* 40k, and if someone wants that they would be playing 40k.

But there are also people out there who want to play AoD 30k.
You know why?
Because some people like having some STRATEGY in their strategy wargames, something that 8th cant provide because its a tape measure away from being a damn board game.
Because they like the lack of toxicity that is rampant in 40k. Because they like narrative gaming and they like to look across the table and see fully painted armies and not a sea of grey plastic.

Because its a better game.

Because some people like having some STRATEGY in their strategy wargames, something that 8th cant provide because its a tape measure away from being a damn board game.

Strategy in a game where it can take just one lucky 6 to blow a tank...all strategy can go out of the window with a bit of luck tbh.
Even simple deck builder like star realms that you can to someone in few minutes has strategy to it.

At the end of the day its a business and its all about making money, and leaving an entire segment of the market out to dry by switching to 8th is poor business.

So 8th is doing so badly that they are not making money? 30k is in worse shape now that it was before, you really can't claim that it's being more popular than when both 30k and 40k had same rule system. As many have stated, and what can be seen from a lot of online communities, it's becoming niche product. So not sure what your claim is, leaving 30k in 7th will bring them more money than switching it to 8th? I fail to see that...Do you think it would faired equally well if they used 6th edition system when 40k was in 7th? I don't see it in any way.

The funniest thing to me is how 8th ed advocates are so entitled. With what happened and is happening its clear that 7th ed, or in this case AoD 1st ed clearly has a market out there for it.
As does 8th, but 8th ed has a game already, 40k. Why do you feel so entitled that you should have two games?

Why would you be entitled to have it in 7th and others would not be entitled to have it in 8th?
If it switched to 8th, what would stop you to continue to play it in 7th?

Custodes a problem, take a 25% point tax as is advocated by most of the global heresy community.

So making unbalanced army is not a problem? Not sure why anyone claims any army is OP in 40k, when all you need to do is just hit someone with penalty on point and everything is balanced...

Because its a better game.

Says you. Some people will not agree with you. So their opinion is wrong, because you think it's a better game,lol great argument

While 8th might be oversimplified half of the 7th rules could go entirely to the trash bin. There are some tiny but important rules you dont even remember about or if you do you dont know where to search for them in this big rulebook. It slows the game down.

 AveImperator wrote:
Because some people like having some STRATEGY in their strategy wargames, something that 8th cant provide because its a tape measure away from being a damn board game.

What is this supposed to mean? Because if you're saying miniature wargames are by their nature more strategic than board games, it's simply nonsense.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 AveImperator wrote:
Because some people like having some STRATEGY in their strategy wargames, something that 8th cant provide because its a tape measure away from being a damn board game.

What is this supposed to mean? Because if you're saying miniature wargames are by their nature more strategic than board games, it's simply nonsense.

Tbh. a lot of boardgames are more complicated and strategic than 40k/30k, which are essentially dice chuckers with a lot of luck involved, and where basically you can already loose before game begins if you have bad list. Guy clearly has little experience with actual boardgames...

Strategy?!

7ed, 6ed, 5ed 40k were derided for YEARS by other, newer war games for essentially not requiring any strategy. It’s point-and-click ‘identify the biggest threat’ and that it. Compared to something like Infinity or even freakin Frostgrave they have very little in the way of in-game options to counter the enemy beyond picking a list with the right tools, and letting the army play itself.

This has been a common criticism of 40k for years, and it’s moslty true because all those newer games took advantage of newer game design ideas (often taken from the recent resurgence of good tactical board games), whereas 7ed was stuck with a 15 year old ruleset and a load of clunky patches (superheavies, flyers, D weapons, Thunderblitz, Challenges, Look Out Sir, Instant Death).

8ed feels more like a board game because there is an actual GAME in there. You can make cunning plays on the table just by positioning, before you get into weapons and armour and abilities. 7ed by comparison feels like simulation with reference charts.

I wouldn't say its a better game, at all, but I do think it is more adaptated to AoD. Now in 8th I can finish two 2000pts game in one day when in 7h I had one game and then I was tired and it was already late. 8th is more gaming friendly, and this is how I see 40k.
But I don't see 30k as just a «game», the narrative, almost rpg aspects, are as important as just gaming, to me.
Different game, differents universes, different feeling, different rulesets. I think it would be a loss if we stopped 7th AoD: one less ruleset. Less diversity.
AoD is the only one who got 7th right, let's it keep it.

 AveImperator wrote:
Holy hell, the amount of hacks commenting that have never played an actual game of 30k is staggering.

Let's all take a deep breath and take a step back from hyperbole. We're all here talking about 30k because we played or continue to play the game and thus have opinions on the direction of the game. Our opinions are very different, so that's why we are discussing/arguing about it.

At the end of the day its a business and its all about making money, and leaving an entire segment of the market out to dry by switching to 8th is poor business.

If we're talking about selling models, you need an active player base that is bringing in new players to the game to sell the most models. Every area is different, so my experience only applies to my area, but from 2015-2017 the 30k community in my area grew quickly. We had multiple narrative campaigns, an active FB group and a lot of excitement around 30k. I got into the game because I realized that I already knew the rules from playing 7th edition and had accrued enough mechanicus models that I could field an army. Then when 8th hit and 30k stayed with 7th edition the player base in my area vanished. There would have probably been some attrition either way, but now because the rules are different I can't convince anyone that kept a space marine army to play in a campaign and rebuild excitement to draw in new players. Before it was an easy sell "Hey, you already know the rules, just get a few more units and you can play with fully painted armies in a more relaxed atmosphere." Now you have to convince someone to learn a whole new system, and that's a barrier that few people want to cross. By continuing to cater to people who want to keep things the same, FW is limiting its customer base and the prospects of those customers buying models. As a grognard, I already have multiple 30k armies, I don't need to buy anything else. Maybe if they make a new unit I'll consider it, but otherwise I need nothing. A new player on the other hand needs everything and will spend more money. So don't see how staying in the AoD ruleset is a good financial decision.

Because some people like having some STRATEGY in their strategy wargames, something that 8th cant provide because its a tape measure away from being a damn board game.

One of my chief complaints about 7th is that after you set up the board and your armies the game just plays itself. Your options to influence the game and make decisions are limited. You're there to just roll dice, push the models forward and to chant prayers to make sure that the machine spirit of the ruleset are appeased. In 8th edition you have a lot of options to influence the game, your decisions on every turn matter and you can take characters that improve your army's performance and not just taking the cheapest centurion so you have more points for lascannons.

Honestly, I have the exact opposite feeling about 7th and 8th, Bogalubov

I can’t picture Forge World’s Horus Heresy team being able to write 8th ed. rules for its armies in anything close to a timely fashion. Not during the time period we’re talking about.

And I think that's a key problem.

HH sticking to 7th will die a slow and painful death (mainly due to the increased difficulty and cost to start it - particularly from 8th edition 40K players of which there is a gigantic new influx). But switching to 8th might be too resource intensive for a small thing like Forgeworld to do.

I don't see a genuine solution.

 Elbows wrote:
And I think that's a key problem.

HH sticking to 7th will die a slow and painful death (mainly due to the increased difficulty and cost to start it - particularly from 8th edition 40K players of which there is a gigantic new influx). But switching to 8th might be too resource intensive for a small thing like Forgeworld to do.

I don't see a genuine solution.

I agree. I think it's feasible that the AoD ruleset could change in its next iteration (who knows when) to include some 8th edition concepts. That's probably the best we can hope for, however.

The part that stinks for everyone -- no matter which ruleset you prefer -- is that the series will probably never be finished as it was intended. Malevolence is liable to get pushed to 2019, making it two full years between black book releases. At this pace, we're looking at many years before getting to the Siege and doing that justice. I think the official line had been 15-20 black books? Even if they trim that by a whole bunch of books, when can we realistically expect book 9? How about 10 or 11?

I think it’ll be okay moving forward (albeit without the fans they’ve alienated already). Malevolence will be out in early 2019, and the FW team will have found a new rhythm without Alan Bligh and with the reality of having to share resources with Specialist Games. No excuses for failing to get Angelus out in early 2020. Follow that up with final versions of the red books.

Then they can take their time to come up with a new edition.

An edition switch before three legions, Daemons, and the Dark Mechanicum got their rules would have been annoying for fans of those armies. The Horus Heresy team and FW in general was in flux in 2017. They didn’t seem to have much prior knowledge of 8th edition. They had no hope of being able to keep up with GW’s promise of regular FAQs and changes to the rules (so I hope 30k’s rules remain independent of 40k’s, even if they become 8th-like). And I think there’ll be less motivation to use 30k armies in 40k as 40k grows in scale and starts dropping old-fashioned Astartes.

I wonder how the perception that 30K gamers were elitist snobs got started...

 godardc wrote:
I wouldn't say its a better game, at all, but I do think it is more adaptated to AoD. Now in 8th I can finish two 2000pts game in one day when in 7h I had one game and then I was tired and it was already late. 8th is more gaming friendly, and this is how I see 40k.
But I don't see 30k as just a «game», the narrative, almost rpg aspects, are as important as just gaming, to me.
Different game, differents universes, different feeling, different rulesets. I think it would be a loss if we stopped 7th AoD: one less ruleset. Less diversity.
AoD is the only one who got 7th right, let's it keep it.

This must have been something my local groups never got the memo for. All I ever saw was min/maxing. No one was talking about narratives or any such thing. And to be fair, I don't see that in 40K or even in KT much. Most of the KT in our area is just min/maxing.

That's because gamers are hyper competitive these days. They're bread to be.