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 lord_blackfang wrote:
GW's base are grognards. You think GW is adding new units instead of resculpting old ones because all the 14 year olds already own all the existing models? You think GW is fleshing out Rogue Trader era concepts like GSC, AdMech and Men of Iron for little timmy who's never heard of them?

You think little timmy has never heard of Rogue Trader era concepts like GSC, AdMech and Men of Iron, despite FLGS and GWS being frequented by older people who will make sure little timmy hears about them right after he first discovers space marines? (that is going on the assumption that little timmy even discovers space marines first, rather than coming across, say, AdMech and thinking those look cool)

On a side note, does anyone get the feeling as though little timmy does not actually exist outside of the minds of the older generations? (Oh lord, give it a few years and I'll be counted amongst those from the viewpoint of the young ones. )

But to bring the entire thing back on topic for a bit, I thought we agreed that BoLS rumours without tangible evidence can basically be dismissed out of hand?

It was announced earlier that gw had warned shareholders of profit drops this year
Brexit combined with lower Primaris sales may cause this
Primaris has caused a small divide in the community
And I expect will cause a smaller than expected profit
With a new codex not selling as well as expected
It may take a longer to generate sales

It is also a reason why the FW supplements got stopped
One book were based on normal marines red scorpion chapter and mechanicus
FW will need to redo it's new Imperial Armour books to Primaris Marines
Delays based on Primaris conflict with older models
Pretty clear

I'd just like to point out I haven't conflated everything, I'm able to asses things on different factors. Regardless of the target demographic and the lore, I find primaris models ugly and unappealing. Its as simple as that.

GAZ_NZ wrote:
It was announced earlier that gw had warned shareholders of profit drops this year
Brexit combined with lower Primaris sales may cause this
Primaris has caused a small divide in the community
And I expect will cause a smaller than expected profit
With a new codex not selling as well as expected
It may take a longer to generate sales

It is also a reason why the FW supplements got stopped
One book were based on normal marines red scorpion chapter and mechanicus
FW will need to redo it's new Imperial Armour books to Primaris Marines
Delays based on Primaris conflict with older models
Pretty clear

No, they warned profits would slow not drop, big difference. And with the unprecedented growth they've been going through, that's a wise position to take. You have no idea how the codex/models sold, so that's pure speculation. As for FW, they've been spread thin with numerous specialist games to support now. It's no longer the heresy only show it's been for previous years.

GAZ_NZ wrote:
It was announced earlier that gw had warned shareholders of profit drops this year
Brexit combined with lower Primaris sales may cause this
Primaris has caused a small divide in the community
And I expect will cause a smaller than expected profit
With a new codex not selling as well as expected
It may take a longer to generate sales

It is also a reason why the FW supplements got stopped
One book were based on normal marines red scorpion chapter and mechanicus
FW will need to redo it's new Imperial Armour books to Primaris Marines
Delays based on Primaris conflict with older models
Pretty clear

I think you could be right. Back on topic, I think this is why we are only seeing rumours of a the next wave of major releases now. I think they had primaris wave 2 scheduled for Q1 2018, but they decided to do some major re-working based on the....mixed reception of the primaris look, which is why we are only hearing of models now. It will probably be 2 years between when the first major release and the next one, and this is why you only got a small handful of chapter specific and alternate lieutenants this year.

I suspect when wave 2 makes it out, it will be nicer looking models than wave 1. I'm expecting the will have kept the size of primaris of course, but the models will be more streamlined and will stay around the Intercessor look/be brought back closer to the classic marine aethesetic, and there wont be any more units that are like reivers, agressors and inceptors.

It was mentioned by FW that the Fires of Cyraxus IA book was cancelled because the fluff in it would have to be largely rewritten to be in line with the dark imperium era.

GAZ_NZ wrote:
It was announced earlier that gw had warned shareholders of profit drops this year
Brexit combined with lower Primaris sales may cause this
Primaris has caused a small divide in the community
And I expect will cause a smaller than expected profit
With a new codex not selling as well as expected
It may take a longer to generate sales

It is also a reason why the FW supplements got stopped
One book were based on normal marines red scorpion chapter and mechanicus
FW will need to redo it's new Imperial Armour books to Primaris Marines
Delays based on Primaris conflict with older models
Pretty clear

Is this supposed to be a rumour? Do you have some kind of source for this, or is this just speculation? What the heck?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
They dont need to redo the codex, campaign books and expansion books are already planned to do so.

Even in 7th we had the Crusade of Fire, Angels of Death, Traitors Hate, Traitor Legions, etc that added content (and grabbed some cash).

That's my thought as well. Why would they release a codex again when they can nickel and dime us to death by splitting all the stuff between five books?

Wasn't one of the things GW recently said that they didn't like having so many different books like they did last edition? I'll have to try and find that. I think it was in the Vigilus thread.

tneva82 wrote:

Thing is primaris marines are not true scale for space marines. They are true scale for primaris marines who are supposed to be taller than space marines but you can't make space marine models taller without running this little issue that the custodian models are perfect size compared to old marines that they are scaled correctly. Head taller than space marines. Primaris being same size means primaris marines cannot be true scale for space marines.

Or Custodians are not as tall than you think. It doesn't say in their codex that they're taller than Space Marines.

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Thing is primaris marines are not true scale for space marines. They are true scale for primaris marines who are supposed to be taller than space marines but you can't make space marine models taller without running this little issue that the custodian models are perfect size compared to old marines that they are scaled correctly. Head taller than space marines. Primaris being same size means primaris marines cannot be true scale for space marines.

Or Custodians are not as tall than you think. It doesn't say in their codex that they're taller than Space Marines.

Scale creep aside, marines are 7 foot and custodians 8 foot.

What I reckon they should do is bring out a Primaris-only codex. Leave the mini-marines for index play.

Primaris marines came about because GW wanted to redo the marine range, which was ~20 years old. That's totally fine by me. Where they went wrong was with the fluff and the load-outs.

Taking away the option to customise characters and squads makes them feel really same-y. Not every captain should have the same gun and maybe a power sword. Squads should take equipment suitable for the mission and enemy they are facing. There should, in general, be more thunder hammers.

GAZ_NZ wrote:
It was announced earlier that gw had warned shareholders of profit drops this year
Brexit combined with lower Primaris sales may cause this
Primaris has caused a small divide in the community
And I expect will cause a smaller than expected profit
With a new codex not selling as well as expected
It may take a longer to generate sales

It is also a reason why the FW supplements got stopped
One book were based on normal marines red scorpion chapter and mechanicus
FW will need to redo it's new Imperial Armour books to Primaris Marines
Delays based on Primaris conflict with older models
Pretty clear

Yeah, there have been a LOOOOT of attempts to push primaris marines in box sets, board games,even stuff like the Commanders expansion of kill team was primarily to try and staunch the bleeding from the probably poor sales of 40$ primaris character kits.

People that says Primaris are bad because their lore is "Faster, Stronger, Harder" when the full idea of Space Marines (Before fleshing out the Horus Heresy setting with their more human and flawed depiction of marines) is to be the BEST SOLDIERS OF THE GALAXY EVER, and thats why they where so popular.

My god. Primaris are exactly the same as normal marines from a lore perspective, just in relation to normal marines vs the rest of the universe. Their idea is exactly as infantile as it has ever been. And I'll add that I dislike primaris lore, but because is hamfisted and poorly introduced and fleshed out. But not because is more "inmature to catter to younger audiences", that horse is bigger than the cow that was famous yesterday because it couldn't enter a slaugtherhouse.

And I can't understand how Primaris are toylike but custodes or Deathwatch Veterans aren't. Oh yeah because it is another buzzword to put a moral value over people that likes their aesthetic. Disliking primaris is absolutely fine. Disliking them and trying to cover up as them being inmature, infantile, and to catter to younger audiences is no more than a veiled insult at adults that like them.

The real question is will Codex 2.0 be any more functional than codex 1.0

Primaris vrs marines aside the real issue for sales is marines just functionally don't work in 8th edition.

Nothing from strategums to infantry only traits to overcosted damn near the whole book makes playing them a waste of time it's not fun for anyone by necrons or GK as it's not even remotely close games.

GAZ_NZ wrote:
It was announced earlier that gw had warned shareholders of profit drops this year
Brexit combined with lower Primaris sales may cause this
Primaris has caused a small divide in the community
And I expect will cause a smaller than expected profit
With a new codex not selling as well as expected
It may take a longer to generate sales

It is also a reason why the FW supplements got stopped
One book were based on normal marines red scorpion chapter and mechanicus
FW will need to redo it's new Imperial Armour books to Primaris Marines
Delays based on Primaris conflict with older models
Pretty clear

I'm a bit confused as to why or how a Primaris issue has much of an impact on a Talons of the Emperor supplement.

 Galas wrote:
People that says Primaris are bad because their lore is "Faster, Stronger, Harder" when the full idea of Space Marines (Before fleshing out the Horus Heresy setting with their more human and flawed depiction of marines) is to be the BEST SOLDIERS OF THE GALAXY EVER, and thats why they where so popular.

My god. Primaris are exactly the same as normal marines from a lore perspective, just in relation to normal marines vs the rest of the universe. Their idea is exactly as infantile as it has ever been. And I'll add that I dislike primaris lore, but because is hamfisted and poorly introduced and fleshed out. But not because is more "inmature to catter to younger audiences", that horse is bigger than the cow that was famous yesterday because it couldn't enter a slaugtherhouse.

And I can't understand how Primaris are toylike but custodes or Deathwatch Veterans aren't. Oh yeah because it is another buzzword to put a moral value over people that likes their aesthetic. Disliking primaris is absolutely fine. Disliking them and trying to cover up as them being inmature, infantile, and to catter to younger audiences is no more than a veiled insult at adults that like them.

Primaris are aimed towards younger audiences than normal marines not because they're "more toylike" (except for the fact that the whole line is also in Ez-build kits) but because it is harder for a young player to construct their miniatures "wrong."

I don't know if you started young, but I started 40k in 6th grade and boy oh boy was I sad when I got a few games in with my Devastators, who I had built with one missile launcher, one lascannon, one heavy bolter, and one multi-melta.

Also, the fact that their "bigger better stronger" lore is in relation to space marines is most likely so that they appeal to someone whose relative has an existing marine army. It gives them an appeal versus existing space marines.

Being marketed towards younger audiences is not something I use to demean them. That's entirely a smart decision by GW, looking to build their playerbase.

I doubt the lack of options (One of the biggest reasons why I use primaris to build old units) is to catter to younger audiences but because of the No Model No Rules policy.

Why all the new Ork Buggyes have 0 options? They can be build ONE way.
I agree that the EZ line is for younger players, but you have also EZ kits for Deathguard and I doubt that line is for younger audiences. Look at all the options they added on top of the old ones for plague marines.

 Galas wrote:
I doubt the lack of options (One of the biggest reasons why I use primaris to build old units) is to catter to younger audiences but because of the No Model No Rules policy.

Why all the new Ork Buggyes have 0 options? They can be build ONE way.
I agree that the EZ line is for younger players, but you have also EZ kits for Deathguard and I doubt that line is for younger audiences. Look at all the options they added on top of the old ones for plague marines.

The ork buggies are only one way to build because they used a single-sprue design to allow them to maximise the size of the vehicle while minimizing the cost. If they had gone to two sprues (i.e with weapon and figure options) they would have been at a 60$ price point, which we have seen with units like mek gunz and ironstriders is incredibly unpopular with players when the units are only about 60-120 points. I do plastic sprue design for my job all the time, the business reasoning behind those kits was pretty clear - they know the kits are directly competing with one another, so their sales individually will be lower, and they want them at a price point that won't cause consumer aversion, which they've figured out is right around the 45-dollar range for a vehicle kit. so they cram them into a single sprue while making "what you get out of the box" as physically big and satisfying as possible.

Yeah, plague marines are an army designed to appeal to players with existing chaos armies. That's why you have plague marines, the terminator kit, etc with loads of model options like a traditional kit. There are plenty of other kits still coming out with tons of options - stuff for Necromunda, Skitarii, GSC, most likely Sisters.

There is a very good reason why there is no primaris kit that has weapon options that heavily skews the unit towards being "specialized" and why all their options are low-or-no-cost swaps for the whole squad instead of single model upgrades.

If you include single model upgrades, a younger player will usually build their squad with a stupid loadout, or they might make them with too many spcial/heavy weapons so they're not legal to play at all.

News on the Imperial Fist upgrade sprue. Looks like the box set will come with three of the new upgrade sprue.

Each sprue has 3 heads (Helmet, bare, rebreather), a power fist, pistol arm, various shoulder pads and extra doodads.

The fact that it comes with 3 upgrade sprues is interesting. there are only 10 intercessors, and 5 hellblasters in the box.

I think this is a good indicator that the powerfist will be able to be taken by a hellblaster sergeant as well. If that's the case, I would also assume this crosses over to Reivers. Reivers with access to a power fist makes them much more viable in my opinion.

Well if this turns out to be true. Goodbye to old SMs they are gone I think. Primaris forever forwards. Goodbye SM hello slightly taller SMs.

 MajorTom11 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 MajorTom11 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The rumour has no credibility because it lacks a source or any shred of evidence.

You seem to be unclear on what 'rumour' means...

And you are struggling with the word "news" by the looks bud.

Not really, in fact, I recognize why they are both present in the title of the section, in that it is permissive of A) News - substantiated or official announcements via first to 3rd party to be taken as fact and discussed as such, and B) Rumours - unsubstantiated or unofficial tid-bits to be taken with a grain of salt and speculated upon as such. Guess I did learn something moderating this place for 6 years after all .

Seriously though, rumours by definition are unsubstantiated and not verified. You were complaining that there was no evidence for the OP of this thread, you are right, but it is still allowable on this forum exactly on that basis. I.e - don't break your head being upset about it because it is allowed.

Good Dakka'ing to you sir!

His argument is clearly made up from Procreate

It’s pretty much a given that there will be more Primaris releases, and they will be aimed at replacing old marine options.

I do hope we’ll see Primaris vehicles be mostly grav vehicles - it fits with the “lightning fast” ideal of a hard-striking mobile military force. But I wouldn’t mind seeing a “Mark III” version of a Land Raider instead of the Bradley/Rhino we got.

Also, I believe that unless GW changes once again we’re not going to see the derth of options currently available to marines. I expect Primaris will eventually have up to two options per slot (Elite/Troop/Fast Attack/Flyer/Heavy Support/maybe Superheavy) that consist of one “close” load out and one “ranged” loadout - and that’s pretty much it. I highly expect we’ll start seeing a good number of existing marine kits get retired in the next couple of years as the line gets “streamlined”.

Finally, what we’re seeing from BoLS isn’t rumors - its just speculation and wishlisting.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
They dont need to redo the codex, campaign books and expansion books are already planned to do so.

Even in 7th we had the Crusade of Fire, Angels of Death, Traitors Hate, Traitor Legions, etc that added content (and grabbed some cash).

That's my thought as well. Why would they release a codex again when they can nickel and dime us to death by splitting all the stuff between five books?

Primaris will get their own book anyway. They tacked them onto the normal marines because there wasn't enough there for a stand alone book yet. It will allow them to ignore marines and look less intentional. Basically all the new and updated things in the primaris marine codex while the old stuff just has legacy rules to keep folks with armies happy until they finally bite the bullet. The marine codex has too many data slates as it is, no way they flesh out the primaris line and keep it attached to the old stuff. I doubt it happens tomorrow, but I can easily see them selling 2-3 campaign books with the additional units, then releasing it all into one primaris codex. Why sell 1 more book when they can sell 3.

He'll never live that down.

But I don't care - MAJORTOM11 forever!!!

 cuda1179 wrote:
News on the Imperial Fist upgrade sprue. Looks like the box set will come with three of the new upgrade sprue.

Each sprue has 3 heads (Helmet, bare, rebreather), a power fist, pistol arm, various shoulder pads and extra doodads.

The fact that it comes with 3 upgrade sprues is interesting. there are only 10 intercessors, and 5 hellblasters in the box.

I think this is a good indicator that the powerfist will be able to be taken by a hellblaster sergeant as well. If that's the case, I would also assume this crosses over to Reivers. Reivers with access to a power fist makes them much more viable in my opinion.

I doubt it. The Blood Angels Hellblasters kit comes with two of the Blood Angels Upgrade Sprue, which comes with the Chainsword bit that Hellblasters can't use. The third sprue is just so they can use the shoulder Pauldrons. What is cool is that I will have SIX extra Gravis to do whatever I want with. In this case, it will be to put one set on my other Aggressor squad, and another on a squad of Inceptors. Hopefully the upgrade sprue gets a general release soon though. I need at least another one.

 cuda1179 wrote:

GAZ_NZ wrote:
It was announced earlier that gw had warned shareholders of profit drops this year
Brexit combined with lower Primaris sales may cause this
Primaris has caused a small divide in the community
And I expect will cause a smaller than expected profit
With a new codex not selling as well as expected
It may take a longer to generate sales

It is also a reason why the FW supplements got stopped
One book were based on normal marines red scorpion chapter and mechanicus
FW will need to redo it's new Imperial Armour books to Primaris Marines
Delays based on Primaris conflict with older models
Pretty clear

I'm a bit confused as to why or how a Primaris issue has much of an impact on a Talons of the Emperor supplement.

Exactly what happened to that which was announced less than 6 months ago and has already apparently been dropped because- no reason given.
I'm sure a hell not buying a Kharon Pattern Acquisitor without 40k rules.

 cuda1179 wrote:

GAZ_NZ wrote:
It was announced earlier that gw had warned shareholders of profit drops this year
Brexit combined with lower Primaris sales may cause this
Primaris has caused a small divide in the community
And I expect will cause a smaller than expected profit
With a new codex not selling as well as expected
It may take a longer to generate sales

It is also a reason why the FW supplements got stopped
One book were based on normal marines red scorpion chapter and mechanicus
FW will need to redo it's new Imperial Armour books to Primaris Marines
Delays based on Primaris conflict with older models
Pretty clear

I'm a bit confused as to why or how a Primaris issue has much of an impact on a Talons of the Emperor supplement.

Which also *hasn't* been put on ice like the FoC book, right? Or did I miss something?

 gorgon wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

GAZ_NZ wrote:
It was announced earlier that gw had warned shareholders of profit drops this year
Brexit combined with lower Primaris sales may cause this
Primaris has caused a small divide in the community
And I expect will cause a smaller than expected profit
With a new codex not selling as well as expected
It may take a longer to generate sales

It is also a reason why the FW supplements got stopped
One book were based on normal marines red scorpion chapter and mechanicus
FW will need to redo it's new Imperial Armour books to Primaris Marines
Delays based on Primaris conflict with older models
Pretty clear

I'm a bit confused as to why or how a Primaris issue has much of an impact on a Talons of the Emperor supplement.

Which also *hasn't* been put on ice like the FoC book, right? Or did I miss something?

Apparently at the vigilous weekender FW let it slip that they have been refocused and they are no longer doingncodex talons

 Galas wrote:
People that says Primaris are bad because their lore is "Faster, Stronger, Harder" when the full idea of Space Marines (Before fleshing out the Horus Heresy setting with their more human and flawed depiction of marines) is to be the BEST SOLDIERS OF THE GALAXY EVER, and thats why they where so popular.

My god. Primaris are exactly the same as normal marines from a lore perspective, just in relation to normal marines vs the rest of the universe. Their idea is exactly as infantile as it has ever been. And I'll add that I dislike primaris lore, but because is hamfisted and poorly introduced and fleshed out. But not because is more "inmature to catter to younger audiences", that horse is bigger than the cow that was famous yesterday because it couldn't enter a slaugtherhouse.

And I can't understand how Primaris are toylike but custodes or Deathwatch Veterans aren't. Oh yeah because it is another buzzword to put a moral value over people that likes their aesthetic. Disliking primaris is absolutely fine. Disliking them and trying to cover up as them being inmature, infantile, and to catter to younger audiences is no more than a veiled insult at adults that like them.

I think you misunderstand most complaints, which is understandable since most of them are hidden amongst a heap of snark and sardonic humor.

The fluff seems so much worse to most folks because] they tried to one up the ridiculous marine background by the exact same route. They didn't retcon or find a clever way of making marines better. They took the part where the literal living God of mankinds finest creations, warring for over 10K years as the best of the best in the galaxy and then hamfisted the part where a walking toaster oven introduced from thin air 10 minutes earlier managed to one up said God Emperors work. Worse yet, not by making their armor and weapons better which would make sense since he is a Martian, but somehow he also perfected the genetics part as well off screen. Then they made the crucial mistake of not taking the process to older chapters and allowing them to update their chapters, nope, instead everyone gets ultrasmurf 2.0 dudes. Oh you play blood angels because you hate vanilla? How about two more scoops of ... Vanilla...

I personally would rather they have just introduced mkX armor and a new bolter so they could possibly give marines a decent weapon for once and used the chance to upscale marines and not crap all over the already dialed to 11 lore by taking it to 12. Instead, not only did they take it to 12, but they managed to make the new marines with the same problems that plagued the old ones game wise. Making it even more awkward when towering intercessors are getting owned by scrubby cultists lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
I doubt the lack of options (One of the biggest reasons why I use primaris to build old units) is to catter to younger audiences but because of the No Model No Rules policy.

Why all the new Ork Buggyes have 0 options? They can be build ONE way.
I agree that the EZ line is for younger players, but you have also EZ kits for Deathguard and I doubt that line is for younger audiences. Look at all the options they added on top of the old ones for plague marines.

Then why were Custodes made customize-able? How about the death guard? Genestealer cult then? The entire no model no rules thing is irelevant when they are literally making the kits from scratch. It would have been smart for them to take 2 minutes and put a few options for sarge and a special weapon in the intercessor kit. Heck, they even could have been lazy and let sarge be an aggressor and the special be a hellblaster and most folks would be happier.

Ice_can wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

GAZ_NZ wrote:
It was announced earlier that gw had warned shareholders of profit drops this year
Brexit combined with lower Primaris sales may cause this
Primaris has caused a small divide in the community
And I expect will cause a smaller than expected profit
With a new codex not selling as well as expected
It may take a longer to generate sales

It is also a reason why the FW supplements got stopped
One book were based on normal marines red scorpion chapter and mechanicus
FW will need to redo it's new Imperial Armour books to Primaris Marines
Delays based on Primaris conflict with older models
Pretty clear

I'm a bit confused as to why or how a Primaris issue has much of an impact on a Talons of the Emperor supplement.

Which also *hasn't* been put on ice like the FoC book, right? Or did I miss something?

Apparently at the vigilous weekender FW let it slip that they have been refocused and they are no longer doingncodex talons

Any source on that? That would be terribly disappointing if true

Well, FW has been completely useless lately. They have bunch of models that do not have 40K rules, and against all reason they refuse to give them such, even though people have requested them for years. It is like they would have adamantly decided to not to sell any models.