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 BrotherGecko wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mysterio wrote:
You had me at "Marine Rumors" and almost lost me at "BoLS".

Having said that, I hope that this is where we get a lot more Primaris stuff, to the point where they're given a LOT more options, both within squads and with new troops and vehicles.

I don't expect to see options within squads. Not to the Tactical Squad levels.

The Primaris seem to be organized on the old Legion makeups, where squads are specialized. The lore on the Hellblasters even says as much.

I've got tins of soup in my cupboard that are older than the "lore" on Primaris, and since the "lore" only exists to flog the new models while they boil the proverbial frog, there's no reason they can't change it on a whim. Rowboat can just put out Codex Astartes 2: Codex Harder with "new" Primaris Tacticool, Facepuncher, and Gunshooter squads. I'm not arguing they will per se, at least not any time soon, but the 40K "lore" has become a pretty tenuous and mutable thing these days so it shouldn't really be taken as indicative of what direction things may go in the future.

40k lore has always been pretty tenuous and mutable. i remember when suddenly there was Tau. Then suddenly Necrons. Then the reveal that a nigh unstablable cosmic entity called the Deceiver was behind everything ever pulling the strings. Then 1 codex later its "JK lol" the Necrons beat up the Deceiver long ago and imprisoned him and he is not behind anything ever.

Tau and necrons were being hinted at in the fluff long before they made a showing, with necrons in particular having a fairly long history way back into 2nd, primaris literally came from nowhere.

Newcrons however... urgh, they came from nowhere

As long as we get a new Primaris Lieutenant, I'll be happy.

I love the pose of Primaris Lieutenant #3, with the wistful look of Lieutenant #11, but with the weapon load-out of #9.

Kinda like I used to be able to do with the single Space Marine Captain kit.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Crikey can people stop conflating this and that in order to score internet points? If someone's evidently talking about the fluff, don't start with "hurp durp but models better". If someone's evidently talking about the design/aesthetic, don't start with "hurp durp but proportions".

But if people argued against the points you made rather than the points they wish you'd made, how will they win the argument?

Not that I have a dog in the fight, but it's pretty hard to do when posts like this blur the lines quite readily.

My comment about nuance was to do with fluff, not models.

I don’t like the Primaris because of their design aethsetic, it’s got nothing to do with maturity or refination or nuance. I think they are chunky, ugly and oversized.

I much prefer the old marine aethsetic. I’d rather have heroically proportioned old marines than ugly Primaris marines who are a bit less heroic scaled.

Make old marines in a less heroic scale and I will buy them of course. Make a poor re-imagining and I won’t.

Other opinions are available.

I don’t think you can deny thought that Primaris marines, particularly inceptors and aggressors and big, chunky and a bit toylike.

 Luciferian wrote:
Oh good, you're here now, too.

Guys, there is nothing refined or nuanced about heroic scale. There is nothing that makes it a sophisticated choice for the discerning hobbyist. You're not a more mature individual for preferring old marines to Primaris.

Seriously. Just stop.

I don’t think anyone but you is talking about nuance in models. The point is that, as people mature, they start to learn that a character’s flaws are what make them interesting, not their being the best at everything everywhere always. Primaris being ‘Marines but bigger and better and faster and better at everything’ is a large - if not dominant - part of why they’re so maligned by the player base. It’s also what makes them appeal to the younger crowd whose tastes have not yet grown past it.

It’s also why 30k tends to attract the older fans; the focus there is not on Marines and Primarchs being golden heroes that are awesome, but rather on them being humans with flaws and prejudices and petty rivalries. That’s what makes MkV armour nuanced and interesting - not the models, which only a mother could love, but that it’s a cobbled-together hodge-podge of whatever bits were on hand at the time and ultimately inferior to its predecessor. It speaks to the desperation and confusion of the Horus Heresy setting.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Crikey can people stop conflating this and that in order to score internet points? If someone's evidently talking about the fluff, don't start with "hurp durp but models better". If someone's evidently talking about the design/aesthetic, don't start with "hurp durp but proportions".

I've done no such thing. You have by putting words in my mouth, because at no point in time did I remark on which models were better. I'm merely responding to sentiments like, "[Primaris] look better than the old tactical marines to a younger mind that doesn't yet have the appreciation for Mark V heresy armor," and, "I can see the point about Primaris being made to appeal to young beginners. They are big, chunky and toylike," and calling them silly, because they are.

kombatwombat wrote:

I don’t think anyone but you is talking about nuance in models. The point is that, as people mature, they start to learn that a character’s flaws are what make them interesting, not their being the best at everything everywhere always. Primaris being ‘Marines but bigger and better and faster and better at everything’ is a large - if not dominant - part of why they’re so maligned by the player base. It’s also what makes them appeal to the younger crowd whose tastes have not yet grown past it.

It’s also why 30k tends to attract the older fans; the focus there is not on Marines and Primarchs being golden heroes that are awesome, but rather on them being humans with flaws and prejudices and petty rivalries. That’s what makes MkV armour nuanced and interesting - not the models, which only a mother could love, but that it’s a cobbled-together hodge-podge of whatever bits were on hand at the time and ultimately inferior to its predecessor. It speaks to the desperation and confusion of the Horus Heresy setting.

Damn. This must mean the guard players must be most mature of us all, as they don't need their toy soldiers to be even a little bit supermen!

kombatwombat wrote:

I don’t think anyone but you is talking about nuance in models. The point is that, as people mature, they start to learn that a character’s flaws are what make them interesting, not their being the best at everything everywhere always. Primaris being ‘Marines but bigger and better and faster and better at everything’ is a large - if not dominant - part of why they’re so maligned by the player base. It’s also what makes them appeal to the younger crowd whose tastes have not yet grown past it.

It’s also why 30k tends to attract the older fans; the focus there is not on Marines and Primarchs being golden heroes that are awesome, but rather on them being humans with flaws and prejudices and petty rivalries. That’s what makes MkV armour nuanced and interesting - not the models, which only a mother could love, but that it’s a cobbled-together hodge-podge of whatever bits were on hand at the time and ultimately inferior to its predecessor. It speaks to the desperation and confusion of the Horus Heresy setting.

In this thread, I am talking about the models, and only the models. I don't like Primaris fluff, either, I'm just able to separate the models from the fiction behind them. I'm not the one who is conflating nuance in fluff and the physical models themselves; even you have done that in this post. I get that people associate models with lore that they like or that struck a chord with them, and that their models become a representation of that lore. Still, it's silly to turn that personal attachment into a vehicle of reproach for models which represent lore you don't like, or worse, for newer or younger players just for not being as familiar with the setting and what it represents to you.

I am not arguing that Horus Heresy lore is not more nuanced than Dark Imperium lore, I'm arguing that a personal feeling of resentment brought on as a result of Dark Imperium lore is inappropriate to extend to models and especially to other players, whether they're young or old.

 Luciferian wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:

I don’t think anyone but you is talking about nuance in models. The point is that, as people mature, they start to learn that a character’s flaws are what make them interesting, not their being the best at everything everywhere always. Primaris being ‘Marines but bigger and better and faster and better at everything’ is a large - if not dominant - part of why they’re so maligned by the player base. It’s also what makes them appeal to the younger crowd whose tastes have not yet grown past it.

It’s also why 30k tends to attract the older fans; the focus there is not on Marines and Primarchs being golden heroes that are awesome, but rather on them being humans with flaws and prejudices and petty rivalries. That’s what makes MkV armour nuanced and interesting - not the models, which only a mother could love, but that it’s a cobbled-together hodge-podge of whatever bits were on hand at the time and ultimately inferior to its predecessor. It speaks to the desperation and confusion of the Horus Heresy setting.

In this thread, I am talking about the models, and only the models. I don't like Primaris fluff, either, I'm just able to separate the models from the fiction behind them. I'm not the one who is conflating nuance in fluff and the physical models themselves; even you have done that in this post. I get that people associate models with lore that they like or that struck a chord with them, and that their models become a representation of that lore. Still, it's silly to turn that personal attachment into a vehicle of reproach for models which represent lore you don't like, or worse, for newer or younger players just for not being as familiar with the setting and what it represents to you.

I am not arguing that Horus Heresy lore is not more nuanced than Dark Imperium lore, I'm arguing that a personal feeling of resentment brought on as a result of Dark Imperium lore is inappropriate to extend to models and especially to other players, whether they're young or old.

I have to say, it feels like there are two completely separate issues here.

People who enjoy Warhammer Stories and people who enjoy Warhammer models.

Most people I play with in my local area know basically nothing about the stories and character outside what is told to them in conversation or from their codex. That's not why they're in the FLGS each weak spending money. They couldn't care less what the writing for Abbadon is like, just how does the model look, and how does it play on the table top.

And a note on the 30K lore stuff. I saw the exact same kinds of arguments there, that I'm seeing right here in this thread. I was in that community for close to two years and they aren't some "godly more mature" group of fans.

 Luciferian wrote:
I am not arguing that Horus Heresy lore is not more nuanced than Dark Imperium lore, I'm arguing that a personal feeling of resentment brought on as a result of Dark Imperium lore is inappropriate to extend to models and especially to other players, whether they're young or old.

I’ll repost your post that I responded to in full:

 Luciferian wrote:

robbienw wrote:
I can see the point about Primaris being made to appeal to young beginners. They are big, chunky and toylike. And their fluff appeals to kids who want their thing to be the biggest and bestest and haven’t yet developed a taste for nuance, character and flaws. Marines +1 who are are faster and stronger and bigger with no apparent drawbacks, youngsters love that sort of stuff.

Oh good, you're here now, too.

Guys, there is nothing refined or nuanced about heroic scale. There is nothing that makes it a sophisticated choice for the discerning hobbyist. You're not a more mature individual for preferring old marines to Primaris.

Seriously. Just stop.

I’ve bolded for emphasis. robbienw discussed nuance and refinement in the fluff. You’re the one who then conflated nuanced fluff with nuanced models. In my reply to this post I pointed out that you were the one conflating them. Nobody but you is saying anything about non-Primaris models being nuanced.

Also, you’re kidding yourself if you think Primaris aren’t heroic scale.

 Togusa wrote:


I have to say, it feels like there are two completely separate issues here.

People who enjoy Warhammer Stories and people who enjoy Warhammer models.

Most people I play with in my local area know basically nothing about the stories and character outside what is told to them in conversation or from their codex. That's not why they're in the FLGS each weak spending money. They couldn't care less what the writing for Abbadon is like, just how does the model look, and how does it play on the table top.

And a note on the 30K lore stuff. I saw the exact same kinds of arguments there, that I'm seeing right here in this thread. I was in that community for close to two years and they aren't some "godly more mature" group of fans.

It is not even that you care about one or the another, but that you're able to compartmentalise. Sure, I think that the Primaris fluff is terrible, almost everybody does. But the models are gorgeous, and if I'm planning a modelling project, then I am obviously going to use the best looking models available, and that's the Primaris.

kombatwombat wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

robbienw wrote:
I can see the point about Primaris being made to appeal to young beginners. They are big, chunky and toylike. And their fluff appeals to kids who want their thing to be the biggest and bestest and haven’t yet developed a taste for nuance, character and flaws. Marines +1 who are are faster and stronger and bigger with no apparent drawbacks, youngsters love that sort of stuff.

Oh good, you're here now, too.

Guys, there is nothing refined or nuanced about heroic scale. There is nothing that makes it a sophisticated choice for the discerning hobbyist. You're not a more mature individual for preferring old marines to Primaris.

Seriously. Just stop.

I’ve bolded for emphasis. robbienw discussed nuance and refinement in the fluff. You’re the one who then conflated nuanced fluff with nuanced models. In my reply to this post I pointed out that you were the one conflating them. Nobody but you is saying anything about non-Primaris models being nuanced.

Also, you’re kidding yourself if you think Primaris aren’t heroic scale.

Again, just because I used some of the same language that he did, does not mean I was conflating the lore and the models. "Big, chunky and toylike," and "easy to like for undeveloped minds that haven't reached an appreciation for Mk V Heresy armor," both imply that old marine models are in fact more refined and nuanced than Primaris models. Big, chunky, toylike and undeveloped are practically antonyms of refined and nuanced. Comparing one thing to another unfavorably by using such language implies the opposite qualities in the thing it's being measured against.

You, robbienw and the other user all conflated lore with models by evaluating them based not only on their physical characteristics, but the lore that accompanies them as well as the demographic you assume would be most attracted to such a combination of parts. All three of you have Primaris conceptually wrapped up in this holistic package that is extremely difficult to isolate into its constituent parts for the purpose of discussion. I don't care to debate the merits of Primaris lore because I don't think it has any, so I never addressed it, though it's certainly not the worst or most "immature" lore that has ever come out of GW. I was responding to the explicit sentiment that GW is betraying its old fanbase to a bunch of dumb kids by making more realistically proportioned space marine models which just so happen to have some throwaway lore written for them to introduce them to the setting.

Heroic scale refers to models with exaggerated proportions, especially in the hands and head (i.e. old marines)

 Crimson wrote:

It is not even that you care about one or the another, but that you're able to compartmentalise. Sure, I think that the Primaris fluff is terrible, almost everybody does. But the models are gorgeous, and if I'm planning a modelling project, then I am obviously going to use the best looking models available, and that's the Primaris.

This is my point though. Not everyone has the same opinion. For example, I love the new fluff, the new primaris lore and the new post dark millennium stories. But it isn't going to affect my decision to buy new models, nor does it matter with regard to OP's post, which is about a now heavily unlikely rumor about a new codex...

"Just because I said the thing I said, does not mean I meant the thing I said!"

Yeah, this thread is going to locksville real soon...

 Rinkydink wrote:
As long as we get a new Primaris Lieutenant, I'll be happy.

I love the pose of Primaris Lieutenant #3, with the wistful look of Lieutenant #11, but with the weapon load-out of #9.

Kinda like I used to be able to do with the single Space Marine Captain kit.

This is the best post in the whole thread. Thank you!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Just because I said the thing I said, does not mean I meant the thing I said!"

Yeah, this thread is going to locksville real soon...

If it doesn't get locked, it will be no thanks to you.

Hey look, he used the same word as the other guy in a different context, completely disregard what he's saying and pretend that you can only use that word in one context so we can do exactly what we're accusing him of with a complete lack of self awareness!

Abstract thought, where have you gone?

I mean, this isn't a thread lock, but it is a warning to Stay On Topic.

Don't try to out-grognard each other. The only winning move in that game is not to play.

I think GW has a bunch of new Primaris stuff up its sleeve, and it needs to be introduced with rules somehow. I don't see any other good way to do it.

 Lorek wrote:
I mean, this isn't a thread lock, but it is a warning to Stay On Topic.

Don't try to out-grognard each other. The only winning move in that game is not to play.

I think GW has a bunch of new Primaris stuff up its sleeve, and it needs to be introduced with rules somehow. I don't see any other good way to do it.

I could see an add-on codex like Angels of Death book from 7e. That way the models can be added, but the new book isn't required if a person doesn't want to add them.

 Luciferian wrote:
All three of you have Primaris conceptually wrapped up in this holistic package that is extremely difficult to isolate into its constituent parts for the purpose of discussion.

You’re putting words in our mouths and creating opinions for us to validate your argument. I, for instance, think the lore around Primaris being Marines+1 with no drawbacks lacks any nuance, but I think the MkX armour is a more refined version of Mks IV and VIII. I really like the models in MkX armour including PriMarneus, and my biggest hope for the rumoured Marine Codex 2.0 is an Intercessor unit with chainswords and heavy bolt pistols. If the rumoured Assault Terminator equivalents have armour akin to PriMarneus I’ll be very happy, and I’ll be ecstatic if we get a Primaris Crusader Squad with Chainswords.

Heroic scale refers to models with exaggerated proportions, especially in the hands and head (i.e. old marines)

And, most notably, exaggerated weapons. A Reiver’s ‘knife’ is about the size of a shortsword. The Power Swords wielded one-handed by Primaris Lieutenants, Sergeants and Captains are massively exaggerated - a one-handed sword should be a similar length to your arm and about as wide as three fingers. Intercessor ‘rifles’ are the size of heavy machine guns. They may be closer to truescale, but Primaris are still firmly heroic scale.

I'm looking forward to some nice looking, well executed Primaris vehicles.

Ones that don't look like they started out as Regular Marine Vehicles and then someone just went crazy with the bits from the leftover weapons sprues box.

I seriously hope they don't do something ridiculously stupid, like making all these new Primaris units only usable in a new, Primaris-only codex.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I seriously hope they don't do something ridiculously stupid, like making all these new Primaris units only usable in a new, Primaris-only codex.

I hate to be that guy, but I hope they hurry up and just shift everything to primaris. This slow transition fluff murder is too much for me.

Sooner we can get to just primaris the sooner we can pretend this never happened and Marines are the correct scale.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 MajorTom11 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The rumour has no credibility because it lacks a source or any shred of evidence.

You seem to be unclear on what 'rumour' means...

And you are struggling with the word "news" by the looks bud.

Not really, in fact, I recognize why they are both present in the title of the section, in that it is permissive of A) News - substantiated or official announcements via first to 3rd party to be taken as fact and discussed as such, and B) Rumours - unsubstantiated or unofficial tid-bits to be taken with a grain of salt and speculated upon as such. Guess I did learn something moderating this place for 6 years after all .

Seriously though, rumours by definition are unsubstantiated and not verified. You were complaining that there was no evidence for the OP of this thread, you are right, but it is still allowable on this forum exactly on that basis. I.e - don't break your head being upset about it because it is allowed.

Good Dakka'ing to you sir!

I just hope not all primaris vehicles are grav based. I kinda liked how crude and primitive imperial vehicles were. Like crude ww2 inspired smoke belching machines. Gw is making things too slick and sci fi with the primaris. The lack of variety in the basic armor pattern is also a bummer cause past mks all had subtle variations.

 Luciferian wrote:

drbored wrote:

A. you're not GW's base. GW's base is younger kids that are getting into the hobby that they can hook onto buying plastic miniatures for a long time to come. GW's base eventually grows out of being GW's base because they become salty nerds like the rest of us.
B. There's no B. I just wanted to make that point. If you think that you're part of GW's base, you're not.

drbored, if you think GW's base is not people who cling to heroic scale models because they believe them to be a matter of refined taste, you're probably right. I think you're kind of overestimating the solidarity that exists for marinelets, here. I was once one of those kids who got hooked into the hobby on the basis of 2nd Edition Blood Angels and I would never look back from the newer models.

I think people are misinterpreting my intention. I have zero attachment to the Tactical Marines and their scale and I'm not fanboy-ing over the Primaris stuff. I'm just laying down the facts as I see them.

My local GW manager told it to me straight. GW's target audience is not the older nerd that's already got an army. That's all there is to it.

 Thargrim wrote:
I just hope not all primaris vehicles are grav based. I kinda liked how crude and primitive imperial vehicles were. Like crude ww2 inspired smoke belching machines. Gw is making things too slick and sci fi with the primaris. The lack of variety in the basic armor pattern is also a bummer cause past mks all had subtle variations.

Me too. Grav quad bikes or not everything about the range screams He-man on more steroids. The new rumored dex will cement this portrait i would imagine so that anyone looking for more depth will find themselves in the kiddy pool. Again. Way to alienate a part of your base gw. A part that has money and will increasingly point their kids to different systems and companies out of concern to spare them the eventual and inevitable corporate disloyalty as gee dubs sells them down the river to parasite on the naivete of the next generation...

 jeff white wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
I just hope not all primaris vehicles are grav based. I kinda liked how crude and primitive imperial vehicles were. Like crude ww2 inspired smoke belching machines. Gw is making things too slick and sci fi with the primaris. The lack of variety in the basic armor pattern is also a bummer cause past mks all had subtle variations.

Me too. Grav quad bikes or not everything about the range screams He-man on more steroids. The new rumored dex will cement this portrait i would imagine so that anyone looking for more depth will find themselves in the kiddy pool. Again. Way to alienate a part of your base gw. A part that has money and will increasingly point their kids to different systems and companies out of concern to spare them the eventual and inevitable corporate disloyalty as gee dubs sells them down the river to parasite on the naivete of the next generation...

Again, what base do you think you're a part of? I assure you that GW cares not for the people that aren't going to buy their product anyway. They're making their product for a younger generation, and for every grumpy nerd that steers their kids away to a different hobby there will be five more parents that know nothing about 40k but they're happy to see that their son or daughter is interested in something that is creative and social and that isn't drugs.

They dont need to redo the codex, campaign books and expansion books are already planned to do so.

Even in 7th we had the Crusade of Fire, Angels of Death, Traitors Hate, Traitor Legions, etc that added content (and grabbed some cash).

drbored wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
I just hope not all primaris vehicles are grav based. I kinda liked how crude and primitive imperial vehicles were. Like crude ww2 inspired smoke belching machines. Gw is making things too slick and sci fi with the primaris. The lack of variety in the basic armor pattern is also a bummer cause past mks all had subtle variations.

Me too. Grav quad bikes or not everything about the range screams He-man on more steroids. The new rumored dex will cement this portrait i would imagine so that anyone looking for more depth will find themselves in the kiddy pool. Again. Way to alienate a part of your base gw. A part that has money and will increasingly point their kids to different systems and companies out of concern to spare them the eventual and inevitable corporate disloyalty as gee dubs sells them down the river to parasite on the naivete of the next generation...

Again, what base do you think you're a part of? I assure you that GW cares not for the people that aren't going to buy their product anyway. They're making their product for a younger generation, and for every grumpy nerd that steers their kids away to a different hobby there will be five more parents that know nothing about 40k but they're happy to see that their son or daughter is interested in something that is creative and social and that isn't drugs.

Why do you feel a reflexive need to spit bile? I have added you to my ignore list which now consists of well.. You. I kindly ask you to do the same for me going forward.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
They dont need to redo the codex, campaign books and expansion books are already planned to do so.

Even in 7th we had the Crusade of Fire, Angels of Death, Traitors Hate, Traitor Legions, etc that added content (and grabbed some cash).

That's my thought as well. Why would they release a codex again when they can nickel and dime us to death by splitting all the stuff between five books?

 Luciferian wrote:
Let's not pretend that old Space Marine models are the preference of a more refined palate. GW could release true-scale, updated MK V marines and I doubt very many people would try to argue that the old ones were somehow superior except from a standpoint of nostalgia and personal taste.

Thing is primaris marines are not true scale for space marines. They are true scale for primaris marines who are supposed to be taller than space marines but you can't make space marine models taller without running this little issue that the custodian models are perfect size compared to old marines that they are scaled correctly. Head taller than space marines. Primaris being same size means primaris marines cannot be true scale for space marines.

drbored wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
GW brass are blowing bubbles. I will wait for the updated old range. Quadbikes? Not as if old marine bikes couldnt see improvements first. 20 yrs for an updated ork buggy we get nonopose on a base. Now primies get buggies in a year. Way to alienate your base geedubs. Pass.

A. you're not GW's base. GW's base is younger kids that are getting into the hobby that they can hook onto buying plastic miniatures for a long time to come. GW's base eventually grows out of being GW's base because they become salty nerds like the rest of us.
B. There's no B. I just wanted to make that point. If you think that you're part of GW's base, you're not.

GW's base are grognards. You think GW is adding new units instead of resculpting old ones because all the 14 year olds already own all the existing models? You think GW is fleshing out Rogue Trader era concepts like GSC, AdMech and Men of Iron for little timmy who's never heard of them?