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To people who say GW is getting rid of "generic fantasy stuff" please note that Daughters of Khaine got 3 new models - 1 is Medusa, one is basically a harpy and the last was a massive mash up of the two ideas.

Ideoneth has sharks

Stormcast are just beefy people in beefy armour and one can argue GW was a bit part in starting that trope with their own space marines.



Ergo GW is still doing generic stuff! They just rename it to non-generic attempting names. Though medusa to melusai is kinda a lazy way of them saying "its different" but its not really that different

Creating something that is completely original is impossible and more often than not 3rd party studios can make their own versions as long as they do slight differences.

The big thing GW wanted to do was to differentiate itself from core mainstream fantasy(LotR-type stuff) so when you see Sigmar stuff you know it is fantasy in a league of its own. GW has achieved that, especially with the release of Soul Wars, so they can be much more relaxed about the rest of the setting.

I think the cannon/organ gun kit will stay or will be replaced with a new model, for the simple reason that they've just been made mercenaries. Would be strange to remove them a couple of months after

Depends on their future expectations. If they want you to run Dispossessed themed armies they will keep it so the dwarves can run some artillery.

Honestly artillery is in really short supply for most armies. GW cut a lot of the artillery models out of some forces. Aelves lost all the bolt throwers; Chaos lost their massive hell cannon etc....

 Overread wrote:
Honestly artillery is in really short supply for most armies. GW cut a lot of the artillery models out of some forces. Aelves lost all the bolt throwers; Chaos lost their massive hell cannon etc....

True, but artillery seems reserved for armies that might need it more. Stormcast have their super bolt thrower, but they are also elite and you tend to have fewer models so they need to get some kills before being overrun. Giving Dispossessed proper artillery would make up for some of their stunted movement speed.

Good point.

So long as then they also (dispossessed) don't then get move buffs additionally.

 auticus wrote:
So long as then they also (dispossessed) don't then get move buffs additionally.

Running joke in my group is "as I am playing Nurgle, a slow army, my infantry will be running 16" across the board then charging you."

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 auticus wrote:
So long as then they also (dispossessed) don't then get move buffs additionally.

Running joke in my group is "as I am playing Nurgle, a slow army, my infantry will be running 16" across the board then charging you."

Ha ha, "Running joke"!

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 auticus wrote:
So long as then they also (dispossessed) don't then get move buffs additionally.

Running joke in my group is "as I am playing Nurgle, a slow army, my infantry will be running 16" across the board then charging you."

Yeah. In Kingmaker I have the PtG portion where you get no faction allegiance abilities. And a nurgle player was displeased saying his army was now unplayable because he could no longer turn 1 run and charge.

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 auticus wrote:
So long as then they also (dispossessed) don't then get move buffs additionally.

Running joke in my group is "as I am playing Nurgle, a slow army, my infantry will be running 16" across the board then charging you."

Ha ha, "Running joke"!

Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 auticus wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 auticus wrote:
So long as then they also (dispossessed) don't then get move buffs additionally.

Running joke in my group is "as I am playing Nurgle, a slow army, my infantry will be running 16" across the board then charging you."

Yeah. In Kingmaker I have the PtG portion where you get no faction allegiance abilities. And a nurgle player was displeased saying his army was now unplayable because he could no longer turn 1 run and charge.

Hah!

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Honestly artillery is in really short supply for most armies. GW cut a lot of the artillery models out of some forces. Aelves lost all the bolt throwers; Chaos lost their massive hell cannon etc....

True, but artillery seems reserved for armies that might need it more. Stormcast have their super bolt thrower, but they are also elite and you tend to have fewer models so they need to get some kills before being overrun. Giving Dispossessed proper artillery would make up for some of their stunted movement speed.

Yes, and hopefully not eliminating lots of the units (when the Free peoples book comes out). Whether with arty or other rules older armies (and any army being updated) need to be brought in line with Sigmar 2.0 So it might be a combination of arty updates as well as something to help with the slow dwarf movement.

I would also add that the Dwarf Artillery model is rather nifty and beautiful imo.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I would also add that the Dwarf Artillery model is rather nifty and beautiful imo.

Agree!! I really like the grudge thrower for example - but I fear it will disappear.

 Belasko wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I would also add that the Dwarf Artillery model is rather nifty and beautiful imo.

Agree!! I really like the grudge thrower for example - but I fear it will disappear.

Am I crazy or hasn’t it been gone for years at this point?

 nels1031 wrote:

 Belasko wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I would also add that the Dwarf Artillery model is rather nifty and beautiful imo.

Agree!! I really like the grudge thrower for example - but I fear it will disappear.

Am I crazy or hasn’t it been gone for years at this point?

Grudge thrower, duardin bolt thrower and flame cannon at pg 32 of the 2019 battle profiles among some other units (warscrolls at GW website). Dwarf miners are at pg 33. I used the grudge thrower in a local tournament about a month ago.

I wasn’t clear, my bad.

What I meant was that the Grudge Thrower hasn’t been available to purchase since early AoS. Seeing you say you’ll fear it disappearing made me think it was still available somewhere.

I misunderstood. Yeah I don't think items like grudge throwers have been avail for some time- mine is from long ago. But GW provided some rules and points costs to use those units in Sigmar. But with the new Free peoples book its the perfect time to remove those units they dont plan to update with new kits.

So ironbreakers got a plastic kit - great. But warriors, quarrelers/thunderers, miners, etc haven't. Now some of them may get renewed (new model) in the future sometime so GW may leave them in the book, but I am concerned the amount that could disappear with the new book ( though some might reappear in later years) .

I would like to play dwarves as a mono army (all or mostly) but I don't see that happening (could be wrong) - I expect it will be make armies from combos of forces from the battletome.

So if a large portion of my duardin/dwarf army becomes useless I have to decide do i want to buy other Free Peoples units to cover things off; buy and play a different army (I like ogres so BCR and gutbusters are possible); or if the losses of units are high I might stop playing Sigmar.

So is the current state of mortal wounds in this game as disgusting as it looks? Some armies seem to do an inordinate amount of them without trying, which sucks for home games. Is it something that seems to be getting stripped back, or is GW still handing them out like candy? I’m concerned with them and the way summoning works, the game’s balance is a little flippatyfloop.

I would like to play dwarves as a mono army (all or mostly) but I don't see that happening (could be wrong) - I expect it will be make armies from combos of forces from the battletome.

I imagine you will be able to build mono-race lists, but as the book is called Cities of Sigmar, it'll be sub par to city-themed lists. Which honestly makes sense, when you read any of the books that involve free cities there's usually a mix of human, dwarf and elf forces fighting common enemy.

Mortal wounds are one of the pillars of minmax play. Max summoning (free pts) is another. Both will easily tip a game if one player is “optimizing” it and the other is not.

While true, not ALL armies can do that or NEED to.

Many top lists didnt use MW's other than splash of MW's here or there. Some just has solid stats with good re-rolls, like BoC Tzaangors on Disks, re-roll all hits/wounds, with rend and 2D or D3. Or HoS just solid Heroes doing good damage.

Tho Summoning is very strong, again not all armies win with summon, look at at Skaven, they can do some good MW's with a couple units and a spell or 2, but also Plague monks can just get 7 attacks each while fighting multi times doing some rend and some 2 damage.

There are always outliers. Its still the pillars of play to build on for most. The best strategy in AOS is to minimuze opponent agency as much as possible.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
So is the current state of mortal wounds in this game as disgusting as it looks? Some armies seem to do an inordinate amount of them without trying, which sucks for home games. Is it something that seems to be getting stripped back, or is GW still handing them out like candy? I’m concerned with them and the way summoning works, the game’s balance is a little flippatyfloop.

It's bad, but as a broad issue I'd say less of a problem than summoning.

Cronch wrote:

I would like to play dwarves as a mono army (all or mostly) but I don't see that happening (could be wrong) - I expect it will be make armies from combos of forces from the battletome.

I imagine you will be able to build mono-race lists, but as the book is called Cities of Sigmar, it'll be sub par to city-themed lists. Which honestly makes sense, when you read any of the books that involve free cities there's usually a mix of human, dwarf and elf forces fighting common enemy.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, its just there is the potential for a lot of my duardin units to be removed from the game as the justification could easily be that other former mono armies have units that can provide units to do X Y or Z in the Free Cities tome as you indicated.

Obviously we have to wait and see = as some units may disappear for good while other may have a new kit or may be removed now with the possibility of returning at a later date. I see units like thunderers disappearing as irondrakes are now the shooty unit with a new kit - and that would mean quarrelers would go as well since dual kit. Warriors are an old kit so I see them disappearing as dwarven troop type units are Longbeards, Ironbreakers and Hammerers (all using the new kits). Also see miners disappearing - though I thought they were a great kit and unit for plopping up on an objective; some of the metal artillery units will likely disappear and the older leaders. It just potentially could take a large amount out of my collection at one time so while I await the Free Cities book I am also nervous about it

I played my first every game the other day with my 1000 pts of gloomspite gitz from 2xlooncurse boxes against a friends 1000pts of khorne that he just got from trading his nighthaunt army from the starter sets. He was dealing enough mortal wounds to wipe out full units in his hero phase alone. It was insane and really turned me off the game. The only strategy I can think of to counter it is for me to just use my squig hopper and boingrot bounders to charge over his units and attack his priests directly. just ignoring everything else. I'm hoping once I get up to 2000pts built and can bring my own wizards that I will be able to compete on a more even level.

Unfortunately the game is not balanced very well, and is a deckbuilding exercise where often one person will win based on their list vs the other.

That being said, once you get more games under your belt you will recognize the pillars of listbuilding and be able to build better lists that won't flop like a wet towel.

I'd say the gloomspite gitz book is a solid "C" average book, has a lot of fun entries in it, but you will be challenged by a lot because there are not a lot of i-win buttons.

Khorne is almost on par with you though, maybe slightly more powerful (C+ maybe a B- list depending on the power build being used) so once you figure out how to do epic tons of damage back to your opponent you will find the games are a bit more fun.

That unfortunately does require you to build a certain way though with a certain subset of models.

The key feature of AOS (and 40k) is to minimize player agency, meaning the more you can do things to your opponent that he cannot respond to or just stands there helplessly watching, the better off you will be doing. This is not a bug or a defect either, its an intended feature that a lot (a lot) of people love. Just because you have 2000 points and your opponent has 2000 points, most often does not mean the two armies are balanced and a good game will be had unless both players are tuning as hard as possible.

I do notice that Khorne, while not an S-tier army, can often build very unfun (for their opponent) lists. Not the sort of crushing list that dominates tournaments, but the sort of list that you get frustrated playing against due to their myriad of gimmicks and interrupting abilities. Just a very unfun army to play against.

Wayniac wrote:
I do notice that Khorne, while not an S-tier army, can often build very unfun (for their opponent) lists. Not the sort of crushing list that dominates tournaments, but the sort of list that you get frustrated playing against due to their myriad of gimmicks and interrupting abilities. Just a very unfun army to play against.

Matters aren't helped that a lot of those units are easily available via the old starter set.

Yeah. I'd say the problem I see quite a bit is that new people walk into the store, see the models they really like, and then figure "if i am building say 1000 pts, and my buddy builds 1000 pts... that we'll have a good game."

Because thats logical.

And no one tells them different. And starter forces are a logical first step for a lot of people.

The game of AOS has a lot of unfun elements sprinkled in it. But as people like to say a lot on social media... its all broke so none of its broke. You just have to know that going in, and know what the broke is so you don't waste time and money on stinkers.

I was speaking with an individual interested in getting into wargames the other day, and had to explain that as diplomatically as possible. By his reaction I feel that is another potential player lost to my community to balance. I should be used to it by now but it is still frustrating.