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Not Online!!! wrote:
Again, that's the issue, SPECIALISATION IS AFTER SOME POINT UNSUSTAINABLE IN COST EFFECTIVENESS:

Only if their role can be achieved by a less specialised force for less effort/resources.
However, this is not the case with the Scions. They can achieve goals that would take less specialised forces far more in terms of manpower, time, effort, and resources. Scions can win battles that take other forces weeks. They can perform operations that would be simply impractical for others.

A specialized Regiment has excactly one use.
A regular Regiment has more then 1 use, they can fullfill a vast ammount of roles and win out compared to the specialized regiment in 80-90% battle situations.

But that specialised regiment can perform that one use better than the less specialised one. The "regular" regiment (of which there aren't many of in the Imperial Guard, because each regiment is intended to be specialised) might be able to engage in more types of warfare, but will not be better than a regiment DESIGNED for that role.

You point out that "a generalist regiment would win 80% more battles than a specialised one", but this is only true if you assume that the specialised one is fighting battles where it isn't specialised. The specialised one beats the non-specialist handily in their specific field - and guess where the specialist regiment is deployed?

A specialized Regiment requires specialized equipment, Specialized Equipment is A expensive B difficult to get the hands on, C maintenance and Supply intensive.
A non specialized Regiment might require more diffrent parts but is not out of fighting strength because one key supply type is out.And if used with low maintenace equipment, (E.G. Chimeras f.e.) still a more usefull tool and combat reliable overall.

The Scions come from an incredibly wealthy and well supplied organisation. Priority is given to them over the other regiments, because the Scions are good at what they do, and will use the specialised equipment better.

Sure, your mixed regiment might be operational even if it's missing all it's fuel, but even with it's fuel, it's inferior to the specialist. Your whole scenario of "specialists suck if they don't have their equipment" is nice and all, but it simply doesn't apply to the Scions because their organisation and close ties to the Administratum mean they rarely don't have all their necessary equipment - unlike "normal" guardsmen.

A specialized regiment requires constant support from other units, making it harder to use.
A mixed regiment can form AD HOC formation with other mixed Regiments, achieving a similar specialised effect whilest still maintaining other branches. (ALSO CALLED KAMPFGRUPPEN)

A specialist only requires support when the mission requires more than their own speciality. The mixed regiment will never have the same impact as a fully specialised regiment, even if they band up with other regiments, but will just do an inferior job. The mixed regiment can do multiple things, but why would you bother with having three mixed regiments doing an okay job, when you can have three different specialist regiments working together to combine their separate skills for a great job?

Heard of jack of all trades, master of none?

Logistics for the imperium are at best ehhh and at worst completely unreliableto cut off, even worse when the regiment requires one specific weapon type, Hellguns or Carapace armor f.e.
there are way more worlds to supply flak armr from f.e.

For normal guardsmen, yes. Scions aren't normal guardsmen. Scions have very close ties and priority listing with the Administratum and Departmento Munitorum - they will be well equipped, well supplied, and treated as a high priority because of their ability and skills.

On your normal regiments, yes, specialism certainly has this drawback, but the Scions are exempt from this.

SO my points still stand, the best regiments from the IoM perspective are regiments that are:

- Durable
- Mixed (in order to allow for ad hoc formations and general lessening of supply issues)
- Maintenance easy (for allowing a formation to remain combat effecive longer)
- Fanatical / or of high morale.

Again, only for "normal" regiments. You also seem to ignore, or simply not know, that MOST regiments in the IoM are specialised. You don't get combined arms regiments that often. Sure, you have some which have a bit of both (siege, mechanised, etc etc), but these are the minority, and lack things in their own rights (siege regiments are often slow moving, and have incredibly high casualty rates, leading to high turnover of experienced troops and consequently a waste of time training them, and mechanised regiments often lack in manpower - what units they have is limited to their transport capacity for their vehicles.

Krieg are good at one thing. Scions are good at another. There is no "best regiment". Maybe you can do a "best troopers", but that would be very different.

Only if their role can be achieved by a less specialised force for less effort/resources.
However, this is not the case with the Scions. They can achieve goals that would take less specialised forces far more in terms of manpower, time, effort, and resources. Scions can win battles that take other forces weeks. They can perform operations that would be simply impractical for others.

which is the case in a large scale war 90 % of the time.

"in a fight between 2 mans he with one more bullet in the magazin wins"

But that specialised regiment can perform that one use better than the less specialised one. The "regular" regiment (of which there aren't many of in the Imperial Guard, because each regiment is intended to be specialised) might be able to engage in more types of warfare, but will not be better than a regiment DESIGNED for that role.

You point out that "a generalist regiment would win 80% more battles than a specialised one", but this is only true if you assume that the specialised one is fighting battles where it isn't specialised. The specialised one beats the non-specialist handily in their specific field - and guess where the specialist regiment is deployed?

I know how the guard is built and i know that to deny traitors more access to differing units most regiments ARE not mixed, however those that are vastly perform better.

Also over a campaign how often do you rekon you can use the special regiment in their specific field and how often the general regiment will win out?
Point general regiment again.

A specialist only requires support when the mission requires more than their own speciality. The mixed regiment will never have the same impact as a fully specialised regiment, even if they band up with other regiments, but will just do an inferior job. The mixed regiment can do multiple things, but why would you bother with having three mixed regiments doing an okay job, when you can have three different specialist regiments working together to combine their separate skills for a great job?

Heard of jack of all trades, master of none?

Look up what a Kampfgruppe is, or also known as "Combat Team".

Additionally also that 3 mixed regiments can form into 3 adhoc specialised regiments without the problem of not knowing the modus operandi of other units, therefore overall having better communication and coordination.Both off which key for an actual battle.

For normal guardsmen, yes. Scions aren't normal guardsmen. Scions have very close ties and priority listing with the Administratum and Departmento Munitorum - they will be well equipped, well supplied, and treated as a high priority because of their ability and skills.

On your normal regiments, yes, specialism certainly has this drawback, but the Scions are exempt from this.

And they get better supplied through the warp how exactly?

So again they suffer from the supplies even moreso and are most certainly not excluded from Supply issue, or do they now magically gak their carapace armour after breakfest nails?

Again, only for "normal" regiments. You also seem to ignore, or simply not know, that MOST regiments in the IoM are specialised. You don't get combined arms regiments that often. Sure, you have some which have a bit of both (siege, mechanised, etc etc), but these are the minority, and lack things in their own rights (siege regiments are often slow moving, and have incredibly high casualty rates, leading to high turnover of experienced troops and consequently a waste of time training them, and mechanised regiments often lack in manpower - what units they have is limited to their transport capacity for their vehicles.

Krieg are good at one thing. Scions are good at another. There is no "best regiment". Maybe you can do a "best troopers", but that would be very different.

I know how regiments are built up, i also however know how Krieg recruits, turnover rate is nothing.

Also there is very well a best regiment, that is the one which overall performs best in any circumstance and acceptable when out of their comfort zone.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Only if their role can be achieved by a less specialised force for less effort/resources.
However, this is not the case with the Scions. They can achieve goals that would take less specialised forces far more in terms of manpower, time, effort, and resources. Scions can win battles that take other forces weeks. They can perform operations that would be simply impractical for others.

which is the case in a large scale war 90 % of the time.

Not at all, because you don't put your specialised forces in an open war, unless you're desperate, clueless, or trying to make an obtuse point.

You put a mix of line infantry, siege infantry, mechanised, armoured, and artillery in a large scale war. If Scions are present, it is as the tip of the spear, not the entire war. The only reason I can seem to think you're so obsessed with trying to put Scions in an open war is because you're deliberately misconstruing the argument.

Scions aren't supposed to fight large scale war, so the fact that they can't is irrelevant.

"in a fight between 2 mans he with one more bullet in the magazin wins"

I disagree with that. You could have 100 more bullets, if you get shot first, you won't get to use any of them. The one who shoots faster, and more accurately, wins.

I know how the guard is built and i know that to deny traitors more access to differing units most regiments ARE not mixed, however those that are vastly perform better.

Citation needed. What data do you have that outlines, in universe, that mixed regiments are more effective. Because most of the time, regiments are broken up anyway into smaller operational units, and support other regiments who have done the same. You don't just have one regiment, unless that regiment is doing a specific job.
In open war, as you seem to be focused on, you hardly ever see one regiment deployed, and the combination of regiments work to support eachother, effectively creating the same outcome as mixed regiments.

But please, if there's any actual in-universe data, I'd be interested to hear it.

Also over a campaign how often do you rekon you can use the special regiment in their specific field and how often the general regiment will win out?
Point general regiment again.

Depends what the campaign is. Is it a solo regiment campaign (unlikely)? What is the nature of the campaign (siege? defence? assault? recon? infiltration?) What is the environment? Who are the enemy?

In my opinion, the specialist regiments would be best, because they're tailored for the mission at hand. If they're not the right regiments, then that was a fault of the Munitorum, not on the regiment itself. While a mixed regiment IS versatile, it's simply not as good as a tailored regiment at certain things. A mixed regiment will never be as good at siegecraft as a Krieg Siege Regiment. A mixed regiment will never be as mobile as a light infantry regiment. A mixed regiment will struggle to pull off the same high-speed, high-risk precision strikes as Scions.

Look up what a Kampfgruppe is, or also known as "Combat Team".

Additionally also that 3 mixed regiments can form into 3 adhoc specialised regiments without the problem of not knowing the modus operandi of other units, therefore overall having better communication and coordination.Both off which key for an actual battle.

Hard disagree. I don't care how many mixed regiments you have, they will simply not have the training, skills, equipment and arsenal to perform certain roles to the degree of that which a specialist regiment can. You could have ten mixed regiments, but they will not be Tanith scouts. You could have ten mixed regiments, but without the very specific equipment and unique training of Scions, they'll never be near as effective as a dedicated force of Scions. All you'll have is more men to throw at the problem - inferior men, with inferior training, with inferior equipment.

You also seem to ignore that three specialist regiments can combine to form a combined force themselves, with eachother's weaknesses covered by another specialist.

Communication and co-ordination are important, but even the most well combined team simply won't have the same skills and natural ability as specialist regiments. It's far more likely that three specialists will have good communication and co-ordination, than three mixed regiments suddenly magically gaining powers they've never been trained for.

For normal guardsmen, yes. Scions aren't normal guardsmen. Scions have very close ties and priority listing with the Administratum and Departmento Munitorum - they will be well equipped, well supplied, and treated as a high priority because of their ability and skills.

On your normal regiments, yes, specialism certainly has this drawback, but the Scions are exempt from this.

And they get better supplied through the warp how exactly?

Better Astropaths, Navigators, and carrying a lot of their equipment on their own vessels. The same way anyone is better supplied - higher priority means more resources expended to get them what they need.

So again they suffer from the supplies even moreso and are most certainly not excluded from Supply issue, or do they now magically gak their carapace armour after breakfest nails?

Simply incorrect. Scions ARE better equipped, and maintained, because of their elite status. Sorry, but that's how it is.

Also there is very well a best regiment, that is the one which overall performs best in any circumstance and acceptable when out of their comfort zone.

That's not what best means at all, and you know it. That's a very specific definition of best - you're asking "which is the regiment which is most versatile", not "best". This is because "best" is incredibly nebulous, and is incredibly poorly defined.

Look, you didn't even look up what a battlegroup / Kampfgruppe or Combat team is, ergo you clearly aren't willing to have an honest discussion and are here to fanboy.

Also Citation from the newest Codex , p9 (atleast in the german hardcase version on why the structure is unified and non mixed as a precauction) under "Regimentalorganisation"


Citation needed also on the better supply situation.
Citation needed on the overall better performance of specialist vs regulars (i gave an exemple why it is a bad idea overall in a large scale conflict, you just ignored it)
Citation needed on the better supply.
Citation needed on inter branch coordination, officers that don't have liasons are worse in that regards if they don't know strategy at hand. (Personal experience)


The quote, logistics and supply wins war was meant not the actual magazin but sofar you are beeing obstuse for the sake of it.
And again the adeptus munitorum would give the point to me, since they even equate the fighting strength of differing types of regiments overall to the same regardless off tank / artillery etc regiment, aswell in codex 8th edition P9.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Look, you didn't even look up what a battlegroup / Kampfgruppe or Combat team is, ergo you clearly aren't willing to have an honest discussion and are here to fanboy.

I did. It added nothing to the discussion, so I didn't mention it. I'm talking about 40k, it doesn't matter how effective real world stuff is.

Citation needed also on the better supply situation.

Scion codex.

Citation needed on the overall better performance of specialist vs regulars (i gave an exemple why it is a bad idea overall in a large scale conflict, you just ignored it)

No, I'm asking for you to prove that with in-universe statistics. You claimed that mixed units were more effective than specialist ones. Back that claim up.

Citation needed on the better supply.

Repeating yourself, but again, Scion codex.

Citation needed on inter branch coordination, officers that don't have liasons are worse in that regards if they don't know strategy at hand. (Personal experience)

I mean, it's pretty obvious, isn't it? We literally see examples of such commanders doing this in nearly ANY book featuring Guardsmen.
Examples:
Battle of Tyrok Fields, where Creed (despite only commanding a mechanised regiment himself) rallies other Cadian regiments beyond his own to utterly destroy the Volscani Cataphracts.
Siege of Vervunhive, Colonel Commisar Gaunt takes command of PDF, his own light infantry, Volpone heavy infantry, Armenian armoured tanks, and other specialist regiments to defeat the invaders of Vervunhive before other Imperial forces even arrive to support them.
Operation Thunderstorm, where multiple specialised Cadian regiments work together to push into Ork held territory to recover Yarrick's Baneblade in a suicide mission.

All examples of specialist regiments forming together and creating a force far stronger than the sum of their parts.

The quote, logistics and supply wins war was meant not the actual magazin but sofar you are beeing obstuse for the sake of it.

You were the one who gave the quote, and I showed how it's not correct. Don't blame me for pointing out your comment was poor. And again, it doesn't matter how good your logistics and supplies are if you get taken out of action by a quick, devastating single strike.

And again the adeptus munitorum would give the point to me, since they even equate the fighting strength of differing types of regiments overall to the same regardless off tank / artillery etc regiment, aswell in codex 8th edition P9.

Just read the Scion codex. It literally says the Scions are prioritised.
Maybe all Guardsmen regiments are, but Scions aren't standard regiments.

So many words spent ignoring the fact that many regiments have their own storm troopers that can do all those specialized jobs. Kasrkin, grenadiers, etc are just as well trained and equipped, without the idiotic torture-Hogwarts fluff.

Just read the Scion codex. It literally says the Scions are prioritised.

I would consider it the last source for claims you should use on any of this, because quite frankly it is ward level of GK stupid when one regards the overal situation of IG.

Also funnily enough nothing about supply priority is mentioned for Scions in the new codex.

And in case of other units, such as Kasrkin or Grenadiers or catachan devils which are part of their regiments, are part of regular regiments.

Also your exemple battles are all standard imperial type regiments propperly employed and with propper general staff, also ironically "heeresgruppe" in the german Codex.

All of the units listed there are regular regiments in the fashion laid out to prevent them of beeing effective enough to be a problem if they turn to chaos, which you didn't even know beforehand it seems:

Armoured Regiment, Artillery Regiment, Drop Regiment, Heavy Infantry REgiment, Hunter-killer Regiment, Lineinfantry Regiment, Light infantry Regiment, Mechanizd Infantry Regiment,Reconnaissance Regiment, Siege Regiment, and last but not least Abhuman Regiment.

These types exist overall for the Adeptus munitorum.

Also quotiung requires pages mister, i gave you mine you didn't bother too.

 Peregrine wrote:
So many words spent ignoring the fact that many regiments have their own storm troopers that can do all those specialized jobs. Kasrkin, grenadiers, etc are just as well trained and equipped, without the idiotic torture-Hogwarts fluff.

Grenadiers are deployed as part of the forefront of Krieg engagements, and suffer massive casualties as a result. The grenadiers are fine, I'd say inferior by a slight margin, but they don't fight in the same way that Scions do.

Kasrkin are, again, very much the same. I think they're better than the Krieg grenadiers, and are much closer to the Scions. I mean, aren't Kasrkin just basically Scions wearing Cadian-pattern armour and stuff, with a different style of training? In which case, they're as good as eachother - they fulfil the same roles, and have similar combat prowess. However, Kasrkin aren't all Cadians, and as far as I'm aware, form into specialised regiments, not just units within an existing regiment like the Krieg.

Basically, Scions and Kasrkin are about the same. I don't think anyone's disputing that. The important part is that this idea of a "best regiment" isn't really true at all, and that each regiment is good at different things.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
So many words spent ignoring the fact that many regiments have their own storm troopers that can do all those specialized jobs. Kasrkin, grenadiers, etc are just as well trained and equipped, without the idiotic torture-Hogwarts fluff.

Grenadiers are deployed as part of the forefront of Krieg engagements, and suffer massive casualties as a result. The grenadiers are fine, I'd say inferior by a slight margin, but they don't fight in the same way that Scions do.

Kasrkin are, again, very much the same. I think they're better than the Krieg grenadiers, and are much closer to the Scions. I mean, aren't Kasrkin just basically Scions wearing Cadian-pattern armour and stuff, with a different style of training? In which case, they're as good as eachother - they fulfil the same roles, and have similar combat prowess. However, Kasrkin aren't all Cadians, and as far as I'm aware, form into specialised regiments, not just units within an existing regiment like the Krieg.

Basically, Scions and Kasrkin are about the same. I don't think anyone's disputing that. The important part is that this idea of a "best regiment" isn't really true at all, and that each regiment is good at different things.

Kaskin are more than a match for Scions

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tempestus_Scions

Thank you very much.

Exactly: kasrkin are what storm troopers should be. Same training, same equipment, better access to supporting units, and no idiotic fluff. The only thing $cions have is an insatiable lust for Snape's wand.

 Peregrine wrote:
So many words spent ignoring the fact that many regiments have their own storm troopers that can do all those specialized jobs. Kasrkin, grenadiers, etc are just as well trained and equipped, without the idiotic torture-Hogwarts fluff.

True, however I think it is generally accepted that the scions are a cut above the rest. Ignoring how the snuff porn hogwarts lore wouldn't actually really produce any force of military quality, scions are INTENDED to be portrayed by GW as the most elite soldiers an unmodified human could aspire to. This is achieved by the harshest training regimen short of the space marines and applied from a very young age... imagine if you had to go through BUD/S in high school. Other regiments of more "traditionally" recruited soldiers can get close, but the whole "being trained from essentially birth to be nothing but steel-eyed soldiers" gives scions an edge. If GW were better lore writers it would be portrayed better, but instead we get the absolute garbage that is the 7th edition scion codex.

Inquisitorial stormtroopers are taken from the best of the scions and nowhere else.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Just read the Scion codex. It literally says the Scions are prioritised.

I would consider it the last source for claims you should use on any of this, because quite frankly it is ward level of GK stupid when one regards the overal situation of IG.

Sorry, it's a source.

Also funnily enough nothing about supply priority is mentioned for Scions in the new codex.

It's mentioned about their closeness to the Departmento, is it not?

And in case of other units, such as Kasrkin or Grenadiers or catachan devils which are part of their regiments, are part of regular regiments.

What do you mean, "regular regiments"? There's no such thing - you don't have a "one-size-fits-all" (or if there is, it's incredibly non-standard).
Kasrkin, as far as I'm aware, are actually seperate organisational units, and Grenadiers and Devils, while attached to things like Line Infantry, Mechanised Infantry and suchlike, are not used in the same way as Scions and Kasrkin - they are used as shock trooper support for the rest of the army, not as a force unto themselves. Think of them as the tip of the spear, the edge of the knife, the head of the hammer, but Scions and Kasrkin ARE the scalpel, as well as fulfilling the same roles as the Grenadiers and Devils can.

Also your exemple battles are all standard imperial type regiments propperly employed and with propper general staff, also ironically "heeresgruppe" in the german Codex.

That's not a regiment. That's a battlegroup.

A regiment is a single collection of units for a specific purpose. A battlegroup is a collection of regiments - like all of my examples show. The Vervunhive example is multiple specialised regiments (Volpone, Tanith, Armenian) forming a collective which is stronger.

All of the units listed there are regular regiments in the fashion laid out to prevent them of beeing effective enough to be a problem if they turn to chaos, which you didn't even know beforehand it seems:

Armoured Regiment, Artillery Regiment, Drop Regiment, Heavy Infantry REgiment, Hunter-killer Regiment, Lineinfantry Regiment, Light infantry Regiment, Mechanizd Infantry Regiment,Reconnaissance Regiment, Siege Regiment, and last but not least Abhuman Regiment.

These types exist overall for the Adeptus munitorum.

Yes, I don't see a single "mixed" regiment on there, do you? This is what I've been pointing out to you: the Imperium very rarely HAS mixed regiments. Any battles you're seeing are most likely a mix of multiple specialist regiments working in concert. All these regiments you've so kindly listed here ARE specialists - not mixed.

Thank you for proving my point.

It's mentioned about their closeness to the Departmento, is it not?

Take a look at the codex seriously: they are on the same level as the Militarium Regimentos. Nothing mentioned at all.

Yes, I don't see a single "mixed" regiment on there, do you? This is what I've been pointing out to you: the Imperium very rarely HAS mixed regiments. Any battles you're seeing are most likely a mix of multiple specialist regiments working in concert. All these regiments you've so kindly listed here ARE specialists - not mixed.

I again reference P9 that "veteran" Regiments that were getting a armored company etc for support grow eventually into a Regiment on it's own which is then mixed.

and due to the nature that regiments get folded into one another is also condoning this fact.

DKoK. That amount of dedication and sacrifice pushes them above and beyond. Without fear of death, there is little that these guys cannot do.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Kaskin are more than a match for Scions

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tempestus_Scions

Thank you very much.

Did you read it? It points out they're a variant of Scion, not Scions themselves. Catachan Devils are nothing LIKE how Scions are equipped, but are treated as a Scion equivalent due to their elite status. Grenadiers, much the same.

The point I'm making is that the actual Scions have a very different type of objective and mission compared to the Grenadiers, and that both are fine at what they do.

Peregrine wrote:Exactly: kasrkin are what storm troopers should be. Same training, same equipment, better access to supporting units, and no idiotic fluff. The only thing $cions have is an insatiable lust for Snape's wand.

Eh, both fine to me. Seems like your whole "Scions are terrible" point isn't at all about the actual effectiveness of the Scions (which is probably the same as Kasrkin) and more just because you have a specific dislike of one part of their fluff.

It's okay to not like that part of their fluff, but ignoring the rest of what they do because of that is pretty petty.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

It's mentioned about their closeness to the Departmento, is it not?

Take a look at the codex seriously: they are on the same level as the Militarium Regimentos. Nothing mentioned at all.

I disagree, but I won't sway you further.

Yes, I don't see a single "mixed" regiment on there, do you? This is what I've been pointing out to you: the Imperium very rarely HAS mixed regiments. Any battles you're seeing are most likely a mix of multiple specialist regiments working in concert. All these regiments you've so kindly listed here ARE specialists - not mixed.

I again reference P9 that "veteran" Regiments that were getting a armored company etc for support grow eventually into a Regiment on it's own which is then mixed.

and due to the nature that regiments get folded into one another is also condoning this fact.

Yes, but these are non-standard. The VAST majority of regiments are specialised. Not the other way around. And those mixed regiments suffer greatly from increased logistical strain, because they need to support more varied elements of their army. If they don't get all the varied bits and pieces for their varied forces, then that force will be divided. Meanwhile, the specialised regiments only require standardised maintenance for that type of regiment. No need to mess about with "well, we have some Leman Russes, and some artillery, and some infantry" - just "we're infantry. We need infantry supplies". Logistically, in the context of the Imperium, mixed regiments are at a disadvantage, as they require ironically more specialist care for their generalist approach.

w1zard wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
So many words spent ignoring the fact that many regiments have their own storm troopers that can do all those specialized jobs. Kasrkin, grenadiers, etc are just as well trained and equipped, without the idiotic torture-Hogwarts fluff.

True, however I think it is generally accepted that the scions are a cut above the rest. Ignoring how the snuff porn hogwarts lore wouldn't actually really produce any force of military quality, scions are INTENDED to be portrayed by GW as the most elite soldiers an unmodified human could aspire to. This is achieved by the harshest training regimen short of the space marines and applied from a very young age... imagine if you had to go through BUD/S in high school. Other regiments of more "traditionally" recruited soldiers can get close, but the whole "being trained from essentially birth to be nothing but steel-eyed soldiers" gives scions an edge. If GW were better lore writers it would be portrayed better, but instead we get the absolute garbage that is the 7th edition scion codex.

Inquisitorial stormtroopers are taken from the best of the scions and nowhere else.

They are intended to be something, but they fail utterly. Kasrkin/grenadiers/etc attempt to be that thing and succeed. $cions, are at best, on par with other regiments and not anything to fanboy over.

Not Online!!! wrote:
And you clearly lack understanding that the type of warfare the IOM is having most of the time, E.G. MEATGRINDER, for that you CAN'T effectively use ELITE TROOPS, (Real world implication WW1 sturmtruppen programm weaking the german army overall) So your elite troops are overall worthless for the imperium beyond beeing lapdog for a inquisitor, but that is besides the point, the question is what is the best Regiment and in this case it needs to be the following:
Preferably mixed,
Durable,
Maintenance easy
and most importantly Fanatical,

Guess which regiments fit that bill.

The counterpoint being for Sturmtruppen is that the German Army in WWI had no chance of victory in the meatgrinder (they simply did not have the manpower, time, or combat effectiveness to overcome the British, French, and US forces on the Western Front at that time), and that therefore the increased combat efficacy of Sturmtruppen gave them a chance they otherwise would not have. Standard combined arms for the German military in WWI had repeatedly shown themselves unable to take enough ground to force a breakthrough, and even on the defense they were taking increasingly high casualties holding positions against an increasingly effective British Army (at this point France was not taking the offensive).

As such, the Sturmtruppen gave the German Army a capability it otherwise totally lacked, which in turn gave them a slim chance at knocking out France and scoring an unlikely victory. Sure, it weakened the rest of the army to create them, but when the rest of the army is losing anyway with no chance of victory...? What do you have to loose?

Similarly WWII outright shows some of the advantages of special forces in an attritional, full-scale force. WWII is also much closer in combat style to what we see in 40k, with widespread aerial, armoured, and mechanised/motorised forces with a great increase in manouevre warfare. If we look at the very first raids of the British Commandos- for the cost of training and maintaining 2000 elite troops, the successful raids in Norway ended up increasing the German garrison by approximately 70,000 (on top of the original 300,000) and destroyed and captured a large number of German ships, soldiers, and industrial plants in Norway. That is something troops not trained for the task simply could not do as effectively. Those 70,000 soldiers are 70,000 soldiers not fighting elsewhere in Europe- 4 divisions is nothing to be sniffed at.

So here we can clearly see two different types of elite forces- line grenadier units, and commandos. Both allowed capabilities otherwise lacking in their respective armies.

As an aside- the 40k regimental system is built upon the British regimental system, in which the regiment is a ceremonial peacetime unit, and only very rarely a combat unit. Regiments are broken into their individual battalion, company, and platoon-equivalent units and combined into battle groups for combat operations to make combined-arms units (literally exactly like the Imperial Guard fluff for several editions now). Note that British Army regiments are all specialised to a specific type, by-and-large, but combat deployments have been combined-arms since at least WWI. This is best shown by the British Army using regiments, but deploying in brigades. I would say the only non-specialised regiment, other than mixed regiments, is the standard line infantry. Infantry are expected to be able to do just about any task, but they do few of them well. However, infantry are absolutely essential to holding ground, and therefore almost every combined-arms force needs to be built around a core of infantry of some kind. Every other regiment is specialised to some role, such as armoured regiments or artillery.

Perhaps this is why most of the most famous regiments in the Imperial Guard are infantry regiments (Cadian 8th, Catachan 2nd etc)- they are versatile and vital, and the best examples can pull of feats usually only attributed to specialist regiments.

Did any of you really think it would be productive to debate a person who believes that one-dimensional, emotionally-stunted, hyper-violent, gullible, manbabies are "superior in every physical and mental way" to regular humans?

Yikes. All of them.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Did any of you really think it would be productive to debate a person who believes that one-dimensional, emotionally-stunted, hyper-violent, gullible, manbabies are "superior in every physical and mental way" to regular humans?

Yikes. All of them.

I mean, please, show me an unaugmented human who is smarter AND stronger than an Astartes?

I'm not saying Space Marines are *better*, because as you say, they are emotionally stunted and largely one-dimensional (a few aren't, but the vast majority seem very duty-over-personality driven), and those are negative CHARACTER traits, but purely on physical and mental processing? Yeah, they are better at those things.
I don't see what's wrong with saying that.

It's way less cringey now that you've clarified that "every... mental way" just means "smarter" and not "every mental way".

 Excommunicatus wrote:
It's way less cringey now that you've clarified that "every... mental way" just means "smarter" and not "every mental way".

Yeah, I can see how that part got lost. I'm not saying at all that Astartes are these perfect characters, with flawless personalities and such - I'm just saying that they think faster, have more knowledge up there, more tactics, strategies and of course, are probably stronger physically than any normal human. That's not to say they're perfect characters in the slightest, unless you think that being a "good character" means being the toughest, strongest, and smartest - which I'd massively disagree on.

Neither one is as better overall, but they both excel in their respective specialties. last time I checked, they can support each other in the prosecution of a skirmish/battle/war. It has been proven over and over that Imperial(factions) fight wars supported by other factions. Didn't DKOK need help on Vraks? Didn't Scions need help on Vigilus? it's almost like they have gaps/weaknesses that can be mitigated by support.

You will have to be more specific. There were many different named regiments of Scions on Vigilus, and nobody knows how many unnamed.
There were at least a few regiments of Zetic Tygers that held strong for quite a while, holding places of import. Casualties required the Tempestor Primes split the rest into various Killteams.
There were Deltic Lions, Iotan Dragons, Lambdon Lions, Karpic Eagles. Those ones were notable for their VIP extractions.
Under Tempestor Prime Liocardus, the Betic Centaurs were successful with VIP extraction as well as preventing GSC assassination attempts of figureheads.
Antrell Lions and Zetic Tygers protected the lives of Aquilarian council members from an Aberrant horde.
Some other Antrell Lions lead an attack on the Eldar that were killing Tzeentch-tainted populace (something Imperials didn’t know) and those Antrell Lions killed the Eldar, including an Autarch. This got Eldar angry and the Antrell Lions guarding the Senate Council were killed by a larger Eldar band.
Plenty of others I can’t remember, too. I haven’t fully gotten though Ablaze yet, either.

I would consider it the last source for claims you should use on any of this, because quite frankly it is ward level of GK stupid when one regards the overal situation of IG.

Uh, let’s just dismiss the biggest authority on something because I don’t like an author, Hur dur. It doesn’t matter what the condition of what the overall IG is, the book isn’t about them. I don’t read Codex Chaos Demons for IG in the same vein.

Also funnily enough nothing about supply priority is mentioned for Scions in the new codex.

On page 14, it tells how the Ordo Tempestus, a more cherished logistical arm, is is subfaction of the Administratum. They are the ones that make sure that Scions get the best equipment and supplies possible.

*Correction on page number. Misclick.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Did any of you really think it would be productive to debate a person who believes that one-dimensional, emotionally-stunted, hyper-violent, gullible, manbabies are "superior in every physical and mental way" to regular humans?

Yikes. All of them.

I mean, please, show me an unaugmented human who is smarter AND stronger than an Astartes?

Is Saint Celestine unaugmented? Technically, she's human and was never genetically modified. She's not a psyker either, but she's definitely not a normal human being. She's some sort of magical person thanks to the power of faith. That power is something inherant to her. She was never "modified" to have stronger faith in the Emperor and that's from where her magical powers come from. She is stronger than the vast majority of Space Marines and smarter then the vast majority of them too. Does she count? I would be inclined to say she doesn't count de to the fact she's just too unique and weird to be considered an unaugmented human.