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The problem with comic chararcters from DC and Marvel is that they don't have any fixed status. They have common themes that carry forward edition to edition, but almost every time a new author/director/creator picks up the reins of one they change things to their own vision.

Thus each version has similar elements, but also differences. Sometimes they are small (eg the 3 spiderman films were basically retelling the same story); sometimes they are quite major differences. Shifts in artistic style also come about - from the outright insane costumes to the more "gritty dark real world" we see in some of the films where some elements of the costume are more muted (then again when half the screen is underexposed and black that also has an impression).


Indeed its hard to get it "right" because unless you're a die-hard fan who follows everything; chances are you've got one initial exposure to most of the superheroes which "defines them" for you. Eg for me Xmen is defined by the 90s cartoon series. So something like the Xmen movies, whilst visually impressive, also highlights some major changes and "wrong" things with them. Of course this is before we even touch on the cross-overs which have a huge variety (and almost random) nature of either being "just a crossover" or "cannon crossovers".

 Overread wrote:
The problem with comic chararcters from DC and Marvel is that they don't have any fixed status. They have common themes that carry forward edition to edition, but almost every time a new author/director/creator picks up the reins of one they change things to their own vision.

Thus each version has similar elements, but also differences. Sometimes they are small (eg the 3 spiderman films were basically retelling the same story); sometimes they are quite major differences. Shifts in artistic style also come about - from the outright insane costumes to the more "gritty dark real world" we see in some of the films where some elements of the costume are more muted (then again when half the screen is underexposed and black that also has an impression).


Indeed its hard to get it "right" because unless you're a die-hard fan who follows everything; chances are you've got one initial exposure to most of the superheroes which "defines them" for you. Eg for me Xmen is defined by the 90s cartoon series. So something like the Xmen movies, whilst visually impressive, also highlights some major changes and "wrong" things with them. Of course this is before we even touch on the cross-overs which have a huge variety (and almost random) nature of either being "just a crossover" or "cannon crossovers".

Yeh but the 90s cartoon is great for how much it got right with every character they introduced. The x-men movies are known for introducing character after character in name only while scrapping everything, including powers, about who that character is. Lady death strike in x2 comes to mind.

I saw it and was entertained. It seems like a logical follow-up for the character from the end of Suicide Squad.

This is way better than suicide squad and much closer to Guardians of the Galaxy. Plus, you can tell Margot Robie loves to play this character.... I mean she is the main producer of the film.

Huntress and Black Canary are good. Montoya is a 80's cop cliche.... by design. Black Mask is not like the Black Mask we know and love in Comics, but he IS crazy and fun to watch. Perhaps too Mr. J -esque but he does HAVE a character and an arc.

This is a really solid, fun movie all around.

Is there a sense they’re ragging on how crap Joker was in Suicide Squad?

Becausen Jared Leto sucks.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is there a sense they’re ragging on how crap Joker was in Suicide Squad?

Becausen Jared Leto sucks.

No. It plays in a bit more into the idea that Joker is just a psychotic gangster that everyone is afraid of because he is so unpredictable.

If anything, Black Mask comes across as a bit too much Mr. J and not enough of his own thing.

Well, they changed the name.

Well, sort of. Now the multiplex listings say: "Harley Quinn: Birds of Prey".

https://ew.com/movies/2020/02/10/birds-of-prey-title-change-disappointing-box-office/

 Easy E wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is there a sense they’re ragging on how crap Joker was in Suicide Squad?

Becausen Jared Leto sucks.

No. It plays in a bit more into the idea that Joker is just a psychotic gangster that everyone is afraid of because he is so unpredictable.

If anything, Black Mask comes across as a bit too much Mr. J and not enough of his own thing.

Sorry to those who enjoyed his performance, but I can never resist a dig. Now back to more emotionally mature content.

From what those involved have said, we never really got to see large parts of Leto's performance. *shrug*

It'll be interesting to see how the new Batman franchise handles the Clown Prince. Reports say that the first film will show a younger Batman, but one already with a rogue's gallery in place. The Joker isn't rumored to appear, but I guess we'll have to see if that means he's operating already or not.

 gorgon wrote:
From what those involved have said, we never really got to see large parts of Leto's performance. *shrug*

It'll be interesting to see how the new Batman franchise handles the Clown Prince. Reports say that the first film will show a younger Batman, but one already with a rogue's gallery in place. The Joker isn't rumored to appear, but I guess we'll have to see if that means he's operating already or not.

The best thing Batman Begins did was avoid using the Joker, end reference notwithstanding.

Joker has been really overused to the point where its almost as if Batman fights no one else but Joker.

It's devalued and downplayed a lot of the other enemies which is a huge shame. Granted Joker was almost always the most insane and the most likely to actually kill people (even on a whim). But when you make him too common that "Shock" factor gets diluted greatly. Let Mr Freeze, Catwooman, Penguin and such get back to the foreground.

In a way he's also simpler to write because you can do whatever you want with him because he's so unpredictable. Other characters, like Penguin, you've got to be smarter with in many ways to get them to do evil and nasty things because whilst they've all got a degree of madness behind them, many of them are quite sane in their actions and motivations. So you've got to position them well to have them take out their anger and aggression and such on the city and the people.

I think it also brings things down a scale too - no more "whole city at risk". Many times they'd be targeting one bank or jewel and such. Catwoman would be a stealing spree rushing through the city, but outside of jewels and diamonds and cash she'd not be striking anywhere else. It's a very different sort and scale of crime to "here's someone mad who is going to blow the whole city up"

Sometimes, I think lower stakes or more personal stakes are better than "saving the city/world" stakes.

I’m really enjoying the “Batman’s Grave” comic series right now for the very reason that’s it’s scaled way back and he’s just dealing with some street crimes instead of the city/world/universe/multiverse destroying threats most of the comics are dealing with right now.

A lot of super heroes actually start to break once they are dealing with huge threats. Batman especially starts to lose more and more of himself the more you up the scale. He's great for a city villain or small team. But once you start throwing armies and legions and space alien armadas into it he gets more and more marginalised as Batman and just becomes another Ironman as he has to rely more and more on technology to keep up. This tends to result in his character getting diluted down to "he's that broody guy with the gravelly voice in all those bat-shaped mechs and vehicles".

Same is true with a lot of the other super-heroes. You up the scale and a good few start to fall to the side very quickly.

 Easy E wrote:
Sometimes, I think lower stakes or more personal stakes are better than "saving the city/world" stakes.

I think this all the time. Its more relate-able, and you don't burn through settings and characters at an absurd pace.

My go to examples for this are Pillars of Eternity and Mass Effect, where the companies involved could have told stories for years, but instead decided to burn down the setting after just 2 or 3 games. 'Epic!!!!' stories are a cancer on good stories.

The Arkham games really did the over done Joker thing.

Arkham Asylum. Cool.
Arkham City... Alright it's the Joker again. Fine.
Arkham Origins.. Ohh a Black Mask story... nope it's the Joker.
Arkham Knight... Well the Joker is dead this time so Scarecrow and the Red Hood!... No it's the Joker poisoning people as the real plot. Everyone else is just a distraction from Batman dealing with the Joker.

 Overread wrote:
A lot of super heroes actually start to break once they are dealing with huge threats. Batman especially starts to lose more and more of himself the more you up the scale. He's great for a city villain or small team. But once you start throwing armies and legions and space alien armadas into it he gets more and more marginalised as Batman and just becomes another Ironman as he has to rely more and more on technology to keep up. This tends to result in his character getting diluted down to "he's that broody guy with the gravelly voice in all those bat-shaped mechs and vehicles".

Same is true with a lot of the other super-heroes. You up the scale and a good few start to fall to the side very quickly.

100% this. And this is why I think shows like Daredevil and Punisher took off, because although they did tongue-in-cheek references to the events in Avengers, you were dealing with the aftermath and problems in society that the Avengers would never stoop themselves to actually solving. And it is this scale that precisely ruined them afterwards since they pushed towards Defenders, which really took away the personal involvements of the characters with another overarching bad guy group with the Hand which was made so generic and boring that it left a bad taste that crossed over even into DD season 3.

I really hope there isn't any more skybeams we have to deal with in the future for DC movies, its overdone in Marvel already. I think we've seen enough for the decade.

Saw this the other day, generally liked it just fine. Fun, energetic romp. Much like the last Terminator movie, this seems like a good movie which is sadly going to pay the price in ill-will that was sown by it's predecessor at the box office.

Not really sure why they did Cassandra Cain like that, but OK.

Also kind of wish

 Grimskul wrote:
I really hope there isn't any more skybeams we have to deal with in the future for DC movies, its overdone in Marvel already. I think we've seen enough for the decade.

I wish I could exalt this twice.

 Grimskul wrote:
I really hope there isn't any more skybeams we have to deal with in the future for DC movies, its overdone in Marvel already. I think we've seen enough for the decade.

Screen Rants Pitch Meeting segment for Birds of Prey gave skybeams a good shoutout.

Speaking of which, the above mentioned, along with Cinema Sins and Honest Trailers is how I've been "watching" about 3/4 of all major studio releases in the last few years. I usually enjoy them more than the real movies, and they're free!

 nels1031 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I really hope there isn't any more skybeams we have to deal with in the future for DC movies, its overdone in Marvel already. I think we've seen enough for the decade.

Screen Rants Pitch Meeting segment for Birds of Prey gave skybeams a good shoutout.

Speaking of which, the above mentioned, along with Cinema Sins and Honest Trailers is how I've been "watching" about 3/4 of all major studio releases in the last few years. I usually enjoy them more than the real movies, and they're free!

Sad part is that, given how formulaic a lot of the recent fare seems to be, it's a better use of your time and they more or less hit all the plot points anyways so you're not missing out on much.

Just got back. Fun ride, it was a female version of the first Deadpool movie. If you liked that...watch this. If you hated that...well, then your opinion hardly matters.

Watched last night and really enjoyed, Margot is obviously enjoying herself immensley and its a good fun film with lots of great action. Imagery is really good, characters all work.

One of the best DC movies

Hate Deadpool, loved this -so whatever.

Also kind of wish

not having yet another

Is there a sense they’re ragging on how crap Joker was in Suicide Squad?

Nothing wrong with that portrayal - its not my fav but he did a good job of a complete psycho rather than a vaguely threatening super precog who managed to blow up an empty hospital - ohh scary....

I think the Black mask being like Mr J was the point - ti would have been easy for Harley to become the toy of another powerful psycho guy - "nothing wihtout Master as she herself puts it" but she doesn't

Wife has decided we must see this, since some of our Roller Derby friends are in the movie..

we liked Deadpool A LOT.. so, high hopes for us

 Overread wrote:
Joker has been really overused to the point where its almost as if Batman fights no one else but Joker.

It's devalued and downplayed a lot of the other enemies which is a huge shame. Granted Joker was almost always the most insane and the most likely to actually kill people (even on a whim). But when you make him too common that "Shock" factor gets diluted greatly. Let Mr Freeze, Catwooman, Penguin and such get back to the foreground.

In a way he's also simpler to write because you can do whatever you want with him because he's so unpredictable. Other characters, like Penguin, you've got to be smarter with in many ways to get them to do evil and nasty things because whilst they've all got a degree of madness behind them, many of them are quite sane in their actions and motivations. So you've got to position them well to have them take out their anger and aggression and such on the city and the people.

I think it also brings things down a scale too - no more "whole city at risk". Many times they'd be targeting one bank or jewel and such. Catwoman would be a stealing spree rushing through the city, but outside of jewels and diamonds and cash she'd not be striking anywhere else. It's a very different sort and scale of crime to "here's someone mad who is going to blow the whole city up"

Well, also Batman has been stuck lately with villains that are "more realistic" (Steppenwolf notwithstanding). I wanna see a hard-scifi Mr. Freeze with a bit of the fantastical, or something like that. DC has plenty of crazy villains, but they keep getting ignored for bad guys who can be portrayed as glorified down-to-Earth terrorists, and that caps out Batman's rogues gallery pretty quickly.

My an my family were the only ones that openly laughed when...



.... there maybe something wrong with us?

Watched it together with me wife on Sunday. I was genuinely surprised by the choreography of the fights and had a few good chuckles through out the film. Favourite moments were



and



Overall very nice and I can't wait to watch it again on DVD to check for example all the complaints Black Mask has about her. I certainly hope that the box office result won't discourage additional films with Harley/Margot and in this tone for the DC EU.

People tend to forget that DOCTOR Harley Quinzel was one of , if not THE, best psychiatrists in Gotham. That's why she was assigned to the Joker in the first place. She's not stupid, despite the way she often acts.

It's just that the Joker is, among other things, a master at manipulating people around him...

 Easy E wrote:
My an my family were the only ones that openly laughed when...

Spoiler:

Black mask went BOOM!

.... there maybe something wrong with us?

Oh, I laughed, too. Why was that so excessively gory when nothing else in the movie was? I dunno, but it was funny.

 Vulcan wrote:

It's just that the Joker is, among other things, a master at manipulating people around him...

I also recall that in many of the storylines regarding Joker he's often not just insane but chemically altered as well (something that seems to have fallen to the side in some of the modern depictions). Joker Serum was a thing and it wasn't just he messed with her mind. He also injected her with it to make her more like him. Though I think she always had a reduced dose or it never long term affected her the same way it did him. Hence why she was a bit insane, but also more capable of thinking logically and snapping out of it.

In the movie, they reference her jump into a vat of chemicals al la the Joker that altered her physically and mentally.

There were also at least three instances where her training and skill as a Psychologists are referenced in a line of dialogue. My wife really liked that touch.

I also enjoyed when she was using the bat at in the evidence room. A very nicely choreographed fight scene.

 Easy E wrote:
In the movie, they reference her jump into a vat of chemicals al la the Joker that altered her physically and mentally.

There were also at least three instances where her training and skill as a Psychologists are referenced in a line of dialogue. My wife really liked that touch.

I also enjoyed when she was using the bat at in the evidence room. A very nicely choreographed fight scene.

The vat dive was in Suicide Squad as well.

The fights were fun and well done.