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 Eonfuzz wrote:
Be xeno.

> Just use a supreme command detachment with 3x SSAGs and a Squiggoth!
> Just use 3 CP stratagem of your 18 CP for 1 turns worth of a 5++ saves
Uhhhh, 18 CP or Supreme Command, which one is it?

> 6+ going to a 5++ is insanity
Okay can we talk about marines getting a 2+ while in cover, or is this a shitpost?

> orks have lots of AP -5 or -4!!!!!
Uhhh

> Doesn't change the fact that orks are super strong
Tell me more about this Xeno.
I mean, it's not like there's a faction that has a better version of Dakka Dakka oh wait
What about marines being able to hit harder than orks in melee? Oh wait, gak that was just released too
Okay so at least our Power Klaw is better than - oh. Marines have that at 60% of the cost Orks do. Nice.

> Marines are an enigma right now.

I keep hearing about this magical list with multiple SSAG. so spend the cp for dread waaagh!, spend the cp for another relic usually as you basically need the killa klaw on a warboss, and then you get one.... where for do the other 2 of this unique piece of wargear come from?

even then you average 7 shots at str 7, of which 2.3 hit, with 1 averaging a 1/3 chance to get anotuher hit... so 2.6 str 7 ap-5 hits on average. The normal SAG is more in the 1.3 str 7 hits variety. mayeb you get lucky on str sometimes, but I have honestly not found the SSAG or the SAg to be particularly great most games. sure it may roll hot and delete a knight but most games it plinks off some squad members before getting killed by an assassin turn 2-3

G00fy, you are arguing with the guy who tells us that he would win every game with orks, but doesn't even know what stratagems they have.

Other great pieces of xeno wisdom:
- kanz are OP, especially in combat
- warbikers are OP
- goff are one of the most powerful kultures
- 3CP to expand a KFF to 18" is a good stratagem
- KFF is so good, you should run 3
- big shootas should be 8 points
- rokkits are better than astartes missile launchers
- ork buggies are hard to kill because of the KFF
- ork boyz have no problems crossing the board when protected by KFF and pain boy, because they are so hard to kill
- ork planes can snipe characters

Jidmah - I didn't say half that crap and yes. KFF is good. Running more than one is gravy. 3 CP to give your army a 5++ is phenomenal and literally every army would do it for 3 CP. You know people spend 2 CP to start the game in cover right? LOL.

Something I do say often is that orks have more viable options than most armies yet they still complain. Which is true.

An ork boy in a KFF is one of the most durable units in the entire game per point. 6 points for t4 and a 5++. A geensteeler pays 13 for that and it can't jump across the table with a spell that good off practically automatically.

Stompa = bad.
KFF = REALLY good.
Smasha gun = REALLY OP.
SAAG = SUPER OP but sometimes doesn't show up - so bring 3!

Orkz boyz are not 6points.

Just stop xeno.

 Xenomancers wrote:


3 CP to give your army a 5++ is phenomenal and literally every army would do it for 3 CP. You know people spend 2 CP to start the game in cover right? LOL.

i wouldnt, 3 cp is a lot, and i play armies that have no problem getting to 2 battalions.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Something I do say often is that orks have more viable options than most armies yet they still complain. Which is true.

not really, smasha, boys, lootas, SSAG. thats it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

An ork boy in a KFF is one of the most durable units in the entire game per point. 6 points for t4 and a 5++. A geensteeler pays 13 for that and it can't jump across the table with a spell that good off practically automatically.

still dies to bolters, and sure they can teleport but they fail their charge more often than not.

and if yorue gonna give the wrong pts, then let me say that stompas are the strongest 2ppm models.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Stompa = bad.

agreed

 Xenomancers wrote:

KFF = REALLY good.

REALLY just ok.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Smasha gun = REALLY OP.

not OP but for sure the strongest unit in the codex.

 Xenomancers wrote:

SAAG = SUPER OP but sometimes doesn't show up - so bring 3!

only OP if its the relic, normal ones suck.

Boyz are 7 pts.

You also need to account for the cost of the KFF and unit carrying it. Let's take a full 30 Boy Mob (which is near to impossible to completely fit into a KFF bubble, but for sake of argument) and a KFF Mega Mek. That's about 325 pts you've spent on 30 T4 W1 models who still take 2 out of every 3 Wounds that make it through, and a T4 W5 2+ babysitter for them (who, because he's slower, won't be able to keep up, and is relatively weak at both range and CC). So, 325÷31 and you got an average PPM for that (still fairly easy to kill) group of 10.48.

As I've told you before, Smasha ARE real good, but only when spammed. If you bring less than 6 of them, they won't do much of anything except annoy your opponent (the golden number seems to be 12). And the SSAG is incredibly swingy, even if it's a good unit to field. With two extra chances to "fail" with it, it's extremely hit or miss.

Needs more U mad? Memes.

Orks are a high - top tier army. But the 40k stats speak for themselves

30 point d3 lascannons with 5 wounds isn't OP? I'm done here.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Jidmah - I didn't say half that crap and yes. KFF is good. Running more than one is gravy. 3 CP to give your army a 5++ is phenomenal and literally every army would do it for 3 CP. You know people spend 2 CP to start the game in cover right? LOL.

Something I do say often is that orks have more viable options than most armies yet they still complain. Which is true.

Please define "viable". Are you talking viable for top tournaments or viable for a garagehammer game?

30 point d3 lascannons with 5 wounds isn't OP? I'm done here.

This is officially the best troll thread currently on Dakka.

You also need to account for the cost of the KFF and unit carrying it. Let's take a full 30 Boy Mob (which is near to impossible to completely fit into a KFF bubble, but for sake of argument) and a KFF Mega Mek. That's about 325 pts you've spent on 30 T4 W1 models who still take 2 out of every 3 Wounds that make it through, and a T4 W5 2+ babysitter for them (who, because he's slower, won't be able to keep up, and is relatively weak at both range and CC). So, 325÷31 and you got an average PPM for that (still fairly easy to kill) group of 10.48.

As I've told you before, Smasha ARE real good, but only when spammed. If you bring less than 6 of them, they won't do much of anything except annoy your opponent (the golden number seems to be 12). And the SSAG is incredibly swingy, even if it's a good unit to field. With two extra chances to "fail" with it, it's extremely hit or miss.

And for 300 points I can bring 50 Daemonettes, which according to Xenos standards must be game breaking in how powerful they are. They can deep strike and have the super OP 5++!

Seriously, I am not going to say that Orks are a bottom tier army. They really aren't, they have some things going for them but in the face of actually top tier armies they can not compete. There are SOME tools to make a competitive Ork army but it is extremely mono-build and not that great in the current meta, it also relies on incredibly unreliable units that either do fantastic or absolutely nothing. How many Ork players have run SAG only to have them not even make back the 80 points it cost to take them?

EDIT:

30 point d3 lascannons with 5 wounds isn't OP? I'm done here.

Almost literally everything you said here is wrong...I mean...you got the D3 shots right so...good job?

 Xenomancers wrote:
30 point d3 lascannons with 5 wounds isn't OP? I'm done here.

31 pts
6 wounds
TOUGHNESS 5
5+
Janky way to roll to wound

theyre good, top tier unit in the codex for sure. But you can still hide from them or one shot them...

 DrGiggles wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Jidmah - I didn't say half that crap and yes. KFF is good. Running more than one is gravy. 3 CP to give your army a 5++ is phenomenal and literally every army would do it for 3 CP. You know people spend 2 CP to start the game in cover right? LOL.

Something I do say often is that orks have more viable options than most armies yet they still complain. Which is true.

Please define "viable". Are you talking viable for top tournaments or viable for a garagehammer game?

Orks win and place high with the exact list I am talking about often. KFF/Smasha guns and SAAG. Orks are even more insane in garage hammer. Orks dont really have a lot of bad units where other armies do.

On the whole with the codex they basically took powerful imperial and eldar weapons game them more shots because they hit on 5's and made them cost less at the same time and gave army wide exploding 6's. At the time orks came out it was clear to me it was the best codex in the game and most people that have a general understand of how die 6's work.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DrGiggles wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Jidmah - I didn't say half that crap and yes. KFF is good. Running more than one is gravy. 3 CP to give your army a 5++ is phenomenal and literally every army would do it for 3 CP. You know people spend 2 CP to start the game in cover right? LOL.

Something I do say often is that orks have more viable options than most armies yet they still complain. Which is true.

Please define "viable". Are you talking viable for top tournaments or viable for a garagehammer game?

Orks win and place high with the exact list I am talking about often. KFF/Smasha guns and SAAG. Orks are even more insane in garage hammer. Orks dont really have a lot of bad units where other armies do.

On the whole with the codex they basically took powerful imperial and eldar weapons game them more shots because they hit on 5's and made them cost less at the same time and gave army wide exploding 6's. At the time orks came out it was clear to me it was the best codex in the game and most people that have a general understand of how die 6's work.

If spamming three good units out of ~48 entries makes a codex 'insane' then yes orks definitely fit that bucket.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
30 point d3 lascannons with 5 wounds isn't OP? I'm done here.

31 pts
6 wounds
TOUGHNESS 5
5+
Janky way to roll to wound

theyre good, top tier unit in the codex for sure. But you can still hide from them or one shot them...

A space marine with a lascannon costs 37 points and has t4 1 wound. Averages less damage than a smashy too. It is straight up OP.

 Xenomancers wrote:
30 point d3 lascannons with 5 wounds isn't OP? I'm done here.

So, they get d3 shots. Hitting on 4s (with DDD! though) at AP-4 D6 damage. Roll 2d6 versus target's Toughness, if equal to or greater than, it wounds.

It deals to a Knight, on average...

2 shots
1.17 hits
.49 wounds
.32 unsaved (at a 5++)
1.13 damage

Meaning your FULL CONTINGENT of 18 Smasha guns (costing you 558 points) fails to kill a Knight in a round.

 DrGiggles wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DrGiggles wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Jidmah - I didn't say half that crap and yes. KFF is good. Running more than one is gravy. 3 CP to give your army a 5++ is phenomenal and literally every army would do it for 3 CP. You know people spend 2 CP to start the game in cover right? LOL.

Something I do say often is that orks have more viable options than most armies yet they still complain. Which is true.

Please define "viable". Are you talking viable for top tournaments or viable for a garagehammer game?

Orks win and place high with the exact list I am talking about often. KFF/Smasha guns and SAAG. Orks are even more insane in garage hammer. Orks dont really have a lot of bad units where other armies do.

On the whole with the codex they basically took powerful imperial and eldar weapons game them more shots because they hit on 5's and made them cost less at the same time and gave army wide exploding 6's. At the time orks came out it was clear to me it was the best codex in the game and most people that have a general understand of how die 6's work.

If spamming three good units out of ~48 entries makes a codex 'insane' then yes orks definitely fit that bucket.

That is all every army does is spam their best units.

Also, a Space Marine with a Lascannon has ablative wounds.

A 10-man Dev squad (while a little more expensive at Points Per Lascannon than a 5-man) can take 6 wounds of any damage before losing any real effectiveness.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DrGiggles wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Jidmah - I didn't say half that crap and yes. KFF is good. Running more than one is gravy. 3 CP to give your army a 5++ is phenomenal and literally every army would do it for 3 CP. You know people spend 2 CP to start the game in cover right? LOL.

Something I do say often is that orks have more viable options than most armies yet they still complain. Which is true.

Please define "viable". Are you talking viable for top tournaments or viable for a garagehammer game?

Orks win and place high with the exact list I am talking about often. KFF/Smasha guns and SAAG. Orks are even more insane in garage hammer. Orks dont really have a lot of bad units where other armies do.

On the whole with the codex they basically took powerful imperial and eldar weapons game them more shots because they hit on 5's and made them cost less at the same time and gave army wide exploding 6's. At the time orks came out it was clear to me it was the best codex in the game and most people that have a general understand of how die 6's work.

some of the best players in the world tried to make orks work, it doesn't work at the highest level of play.

Nick Nanavati tried... and switched. They have all the tools needed if they roll well, but they are to random to be relied on. They can take local and smaller tournaments when they roll well, but even the best players are working, with random dice, and they are not forgiving. Orks can get a nice early game rush with a few good rolls and be way ahead... or have a few bad rolls and be in an unrecoverable position. Remember how strong loota bombs were suppossed to be well they were good becasue you could throw 25 of them in one unit thanks to mob up and then use a cp reroll on number of shots. it wasn't so much that lootas were even that good. it just meant you almost always got at least 2-3 shots out of the lootas. if GW would just make deffguns 2 shot guns I think most orks would be happy. But no all our weapons need random gak on random gak which is fun but not competative.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
some of the best players in the world tried to make orks work, it doesn't work at the highest level of play.

Nick Nanavati tried... and switched. They have all the tools needed if they roll well, but they are to random to be relied on. They can take local and smaller tournaments when they roll well, but even the best players are working, with random dice, and they are not forgiving. Orks can get a nice early game rush with a few good rolls and be way ahead... or have a few bad rolls and be in an unrecoverable position. Remember how strong loota bombs were suppossed to be well they were good becasue you could throw 25 of them in one unit thanks to mob up and then use a cp reroll on number of shots. it wasn't so much that lootas were even that good. it just meant you almost always got at least 2-3 shots out of the lootas. if GW would just make deffguns 2 shot guns I think most orks would be happy. But no all our weapons need random gak on random gak which is fun but not competative.

Just 'Ok, Xeno...' and move on. He's got lockjaw on his pet grievances today.

My favorite part of Xeno's argument is "At the time orks came out it was clear to me it was the best codex in the game and most people that have a general understand of how die 6's work." when everyone, including people who don't play Orkz, is disagreeing with him.

Also, he forgot the part where Smashas have a 3" movement and a huge footprint, so are basically just moderately high damage dealing targets that can't hide from your opponent (while you can hide Lascannons and their squads practically anywhere). And that they got a 2pt increase in CA19, so they're 33ppm.

Really, if you think Smashas are OP, you've probably never played against them. Or you run fully-mechanized. Or you just have a mindset that Orkz are supposed to be "bad".

SSAG isn't OP, not even in the slightest. It's actually like normal SAG should be.

In fact two single meks with SAG, which are even better than the relic one since they can split fire without wasting shots and have twice the wounds, have never been killy.

The SSAG just makes the big mek a legit choice, period. Outside the relic the big mek with SAG is usually taken because we need 6ish HQs and we have very little choice.

Or you think all the shots that bounce of S4/3+ are just you "playing smart"/"outplaying". And thus anything that cuts through S4/3+ is OP. Because you're clearly a god at the game (as evidenced by outperforming all that low-S bad-AP gak). Since you win against the "fair" stuff, the stuff you lose to is by definition not "fair"!

Well obvious they are 7, but every tenth boy gets a tank busta bomb, which while costed at 0 points is really worth 10 points, which when accounted for is how we get to the figure of 6ppm

Because of course a d3 shot S8 AP-2 Dd6 weapon you can only use once a phase is worth 10pts.

I can't tell if Xeno is playing a really strong troll game (in the spirit of the thread) or whether he is actually insane enough to believe the things he is coming out with.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DrGiggles wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Jidmah - I didn't say half that crap and yes. KFF is good. Running more than one is gravy. 3 CP to give your army a 5++ is phenomenal and literally every army would do it for 3 CP. You know people spend 2 CP to start the game in cover right? LOL.

Something I do say often is that orks have more viable options than most armies yet they still complain. Which is true.

Please define "viable". Are you talking viable for top tournaments or viable for a garagehammer game?

Orks win and place high with the exact list I am talking about often. KFF/Smasha guns and SAAG. Orks are even more insane in garage hammer. Orks dont really have a lot of bad units where other armies do.

On the whole with the codex they basically took powerful imperial and eldar weapons game them more shots because they hit on 5's and made them cost less at the same time and gave army wide exploding 6's. At the time orks came out it was clear to me it was the best codex in the game and most people that have a general understand of how die 6's work.

some of the best players in the world tried to make orks work, it doesn't work at the highest level of play.

Nick Nanavati tried... and switched. They have all the tools needed if they roll well, but they are to random to be relied on. They can take local and smaller tournaments when they roll well, but even the best players are working, with random dice, and they are not forgiving. Orks can get a nice early game rush with a few good rolls and be way ahead... or have a few bad rolls and be in an unrecoverable position. Remember how strong loota bombs were suppossed to be well they were good becasue you could throw 25 of them in one unit thanks to mob up and then use a cp reroll on number of shots. it wasn't so much that lootas were even that good. it just meant you almost always got at least 2-3 shots out of the lootas. if GW would just make deffguns 2 shot guns I think most orks would be happy. But no all our weapons need random gak on random gak which is fun but not competative.

Do you realize just how many events orks have placed top 3 in in 2019?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Do you realize just how many events orks have placed top 3 in in 2019?

Fewer than SM pre-new-book in 2019, from the numbers I just looked at.

Which is saying a lot...

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Do you realize just how many events orks have placed top 3 in in 2019?

Fewer than SM pre-new-book in 2019, from the numbers I just looked at.

Which is saying a lot...

Well, obviously, all the Ork players who didn't make top 3 are worse at 40k than Xeno. Cuz Orkz should practically never lose.

 flandarz wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Do you realize just how many events orks have placed top 3 in in 2019?

Fewer than SM pre-new-book in 2019, from the numbers I just looked at.

Which is saying a lot...

Well, obviously, all the Ork players who didn't make top 3 are worse at 40k than Xeno. Cuz Orkz should practically never lose.

Didn't you know Xeno is undefeated as Orks?
Listen to his advice, take THREE SSAG and a SQUIGGOTH and SMASH them tables mate.