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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 insaniak wrote:
 Rob Lee wrote:

Demonstrate the existence of that problem? Er, read the OP. Isolated incident? Maybe. Highly doubt it.

Sure, it's unlikely to be the only case. But going straight to the nuclear option on the basis of a hunch seems extreme.


"Nuclear option"? Seriously? Bringing a Codex to a tournament is the nuclear option now? Also, I think you're moving the goalposts here. You asked if the problem existed, the example of the OP shows it does, but you're still calling it a "hunch" that the problem exists. How many cases need to exist before TOs are allowed to ask for original versions of the rules?

I don't get what the problem is here. We all agree that copyright infringement is illegal, it seems. We also all seem to be on the same page as far as fair use, which allows copying something you own for personal use. We also seem to agree that TOs marching up and down rows of tables demanding to see receipts is entirely unreasonable. And we all seem to agree that using copies of rules you don't actually own is copyright infringement (regardless of our moral stance on that act). All good so far?

What I don't understand is why there's then a problem with asking people to bring their original rules rather than copies. If you're claiming fair use you'll own the originals so what's the problem? I don't think it's really about a TO being overly worried about being sued but if the problem is minor yet the solution is also extremely simple while completely removing any potential legal issue at all why the resistance?

I've seen more than one tournament pack that lists bringing all your required original rules material as part of the player requirements. I literally cannot think of a single time anyone's complained about that stipulation, which is why I'm so confused it's causing such an issue ITT.
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

In Italy is legal to copy up to 15% of a book protected by copyright so techincally bringing all the required pages with just the datasheets and rules for a specific list shouldn't be a problem here, even if they are printed/scanned copies.

But just like the WYSIWYG thing and the requirement of painting the army each TO has its own sets of home rules that must be complied if someone wants to partecipate and demanding to bring only original books, and no scanned/printed copies, is something I read very often among the requirements for attending a tournament.

So unless your country forbids copying something protected by copyright, even if it's just a fraction of the book, demanding the original codex is an house rule. A legit one of course, but still an house rule.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/09 08:34:14


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





Slipspace wrote:
What I don't understand is why there's then a problem with asking people to bring their original rules rather than copies.
Because some people don't want to cart their books around for a few pages of rules and some of us think it's an unnecessary step to ban copies of rules (a perfectly legal option) for the few people who might be doing it to infringe copyright.

But in the end I think it becomes a matter of principle more than anything. One point is I don't like the idea of banning something that people are allowed to do for the sake of stopping people who are maybe-possible-we-don't-know doing something wrong. Another point is I don't think it's the jurisdiction of TO's to police copyright infringement, it doesn't make sense that they would be liable so it also doesn't make sense that they'd need to police it. And yet another point, even if every TO in the world did ban copies I think it'd have such a miniscule impact on book sales from the few wrongdoers who would have otherwise copied it from a friend. I seriously doubt the people who can't live without tournaments make up a large portion of the copyright infringing community

Of course this is just a discussion forum about little toy soldiers, anyone is welcome to politely disagree with my opinions, it's hardly a life or death matter nor is this thread going to change the world.

It's not like we're talking about banning guns here, where regardless of your side of the fence, the "think of the children!" argument does carry some weight.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
What I don't understand is why there's then a problem with asking people to bring their original rules rather than copies.
Because some people don't want to cart their books around for a few pages of rules and some of us think it's an unnecessary step to ban copies of rules (a perfectly legal option) for the few people who might be doing it to infringe copyright.


Fair enough. I think at this point the main disagreement is over the inconvenience of carrying hard copies of books to tournaments. Personally I view that as a tiny issue compared to the logistics of getting an entire army to a tournament (at least if we're talking about GW games) so I don't find the argument particularly compelling.
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





Slipspace wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
What I don't understand is why there's then a problem with asking people to bring their original rules rather than copies.
Because some people don't want to cart their books around for a few pages of rules and some of us think it's an unnecessary step to ban copies of rules (a perfectly legal option) for the few people who might be doing it to infringe copyright.


Fair enough. I think at this point the main disagreement is over the inconvenience of carrying hard copies of books to tournaments. Personally I view that as a tiny issue compared to the logistics of getting an entire army to a tournament (at least if we're talking about GW games) so I don't find the argument particularly compelling.


That's fair. I haven't played in tournaments for years, back when I did my army was small and fit in a backpack and I tended to damage my books when I carried them with me.

These days armies are massive to transport, so maybe you're right that it's not a big deal to transport the books safely alongside them.

You also have the issue that GW have historically tended to write their rules in very inefficient way that necessitated flipping back and forth a lot, so when you'd make up a roster for your army it tended to also serve as a quick reference for the majority of the rules you needed.

But I'm totally out of date with what people typically do these days.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Slipspace wrote:

"Nuclear option"? Seriously? Bringing a Codex to a tournament is the nuclear option now?

No, banning everyone from using copies because of one confirmed case of someone copying a friend's rulebook is the nuclear option.


Also, I think you're moving the goalposts here. You asked if the problem existed, the example of the OP shows it does, but you're still calling it a "hunch" that the problem exists. How many cases need to exist before TOs are allowed to ask for original versions of the rules?

Somewhere between 'one' and 'a lot'...

One example of someone copying rules they don't own does not demonstrate that there is a problem unless that one person is a significant percentage of the playerbase... in which case, there are probably bigger things than copyright infringement for the game's owner to be worrying about. In order for the copyright infringement to actually be a problem, IMO, there would have to be enough of it happening to be actually having an impact on the IP owner's bottom line. In other words, a significant number of people who would actually buy the rules if copies weren't an option need to be doing it.

Note that doesn't mean that copyright infringement is ok... just that it's often not worth the inconvenience of doing anything about it unless it's actually demonstrably harmful.


What I don't understand is why there's then a problem with asking people to bring their original rules rather than copies.

I've met players who preferred to not take the original book to tournaments or other gaming events because they had previous books stolen at similar events. The bigger thing though is that when your army requires rules taken from multiple hardcover books, carrying them around and flicking through them when required is just a pain. I can totally understand people just copying the parts of the books they actually need.

For me, the ideal would honestly be players not having to bring their own rules in the first place, unless they feel they will need them. If you're playing in tournaments, it's on you to learn the relevant rules, and ideally the TO should have access to all of the rules in the case of disputes.


It's worth keeping in mind as well that it's not actually as big an issue for most as it may seem from reading a multiple page argument about it. It's easy to see an extended discussion and assume that it's something people are significantly invested in, as opposed to just the current topic that has captured their interest on a forum intended for that very purpose.

 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 insaniak wrote:

I've met players who preferred to not take the original book to tournaments or other gaming events because they had previous books stolen at similar events.


I prefer not to take original books anywhere because they're something more to carry and even with the best precautions the books show signs of being used if you handle them too often, and I hate it. My books never leave my place and I use them only for home gaming . It's much easier and time saving if all the rules are condensed in 10-20 pages. I also underline rules/statements that I constantly forget where they are in the codex but I would never do that to an original book.

Several people that I know do the exact same thing. But I'm not talking about events events or tournaments, just random games at stores or other players' homes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/09 11:59:33


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Philadelphia

Yes - years ago before people had smartphones regularly

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/09 13:00:21


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Slipspace wrote:
What I don't understand is why there's then a problem with asking people to bring their original rules rather than copies. If you're claiming fair use you'll own the originals so what's the problem? I don't think it's really about a TO being overly worried about being sued but if the problem is minor yet the solution is also extremely simple while completely removing any potential legal issue at all why the resistance?


Personally, I'm fine with bringing books to a tournament. I wouldn't try to just bring copies because I can definitely understand it not being trustworthy.

However, to play my Tyranids, I need:
-Main rulebook
-Codex Tyranids
-Blood of Baal
-FAQ for the codex
-FAQ for the rulebook

Having to cross-reference multiple documents is logistically a pain when playing on a table that doesn't have any dead space for opened books. I much prefer to compile some quick reference material and staple it together in a binder with hand-written notes and references (figuring out which document changed a particular rule from the codex is a real pain) so that I can easily find the relevant info, while still having the books in my bag in case I'm challenged or the opponent just wants to see the original. It's a convenience thing.

Being denied that convenience for no good reason- because there isn't any demonstrable legal issue- is annoying. Not the end of the world, but 'I can't allow convenient photocopies or I'll be the first TO in the history of forever sued by GW for it' is an eye-roller.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/09 13:47:55


 
   
Made in gb
Servoarm Flailing Magos




United Kingdom

 insaniak wrote:
If you're playing in tournaments, it's on you to learn the relevant rules, and ideally the TO should have access to all of the rules in the case of disputes.


Now this is an interesting point - do you bring the codex, etc. as a rules reference for themselves, or show your opponent a rule or stat mid-game?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 insaniak wrote:


If you're playing in tournaments, it's on you to learn the relevant rules, and ideally the TO should have access to all of the rules in the case of disputes.


You know what's a really easy way for a TO to do that? Ask everyone to bring a copy of their own rules so the TO can reference them. Seems especially true now given the vast number of rules sources available.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Heroic Senior Officer





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

The 40k app should sort out the stats thing, for 9th.
Rules though, I hear the app is fairly rough with them.

4000 pts - 3500 pts - 3500 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 1000 ptsDS:70+S+G++MB+IPw40k86/f+D++A++/cWD64R+T(T)DM+
IG/AM force nearly-finished pieces: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-38888-41159_Armies%20-%20Imperial%20Guard.html
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw (probably)
Clubs around Coventry, UK 
   
Made in us
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




Not to be a cad, but how do you legally purchase rules for units with out of print rules? If I want to run sisters of silence at a GW event, what would I need to bring? Where do I get/buy a "legal copy" of the WD from last year? Am I not allowed to run my sisters in my Custodes list because there is no way to prove I "own" the rules?

Another option would be for Sly Marbo. The only rules he ever got were with the box when I bought the model, maybe a WD from 2019 also?

I know this is picking at straws here, but the way GW has made copying books illegal is a dam made of tissue paper holding back Hurricane Katrina. It's going to fail.
   
Made in gb
Servoarm Flailing Magos




United Kingdom

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Where do I get/buy a "legal copy" of the WD from last year?

The Warhammer Digital site has the back catalog of White Dwarf to purchase- https://www.warhammerdigital.com/White_Dwarf


 Skinnereal wrote:
The 40k app should sort out the stats thing, for 9th.
Rules though, I hear the app is fairly rough with them.

It's fine if you know what you're looking for - the search / browse is still a bit dodgy.
The issue with the app is needing an internet connection (and keeping it charged - but that applies to other electronic devices as well).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/09 15:09:43


 
   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







I've run a few events in my time for various game systems. And I frankly couldn't give two hoots about whether or not someone photocopies their rules, recasts their models, uses a different brand of paints, or got into the game by illegally reading pirate e-copies of the fiction at home.

Why?

Because absolutely none of it is my business. Copyright infringement is a civil and not a criminal matter. If I witnessed criminal activity (vandalism, assault, sexual molestation, whatever), there would be an argument that I needed to report it to the police. The police in turn would then enforce the criminal law which would be heard in a criminal court. Criminal and civil are two very different systems of law, and there is a potential legal and moral onus on me to engage with criminal behaviour which does not follow into civil.

I do not have a responsibility, as a tournament organiser, to ensure that the trainers one of my attendees is wearing are genuine Nike. I do not have an obligation to make certain that the case they brought their models in does not infringe on a case patent held by Wilkinsons. I do not have any sort of need to ensure that the resin Kromlech components used on models do not infringe on Games Workshop's IP. All of these examples are legal questions between the company and the manufacturer of the supposedly infringing item and nothing to do with me.

I am not an accessory in any way, shape, or form as I did not help to manufacture the item. I am not a distributor as I am not helping the person give copies of that item away. I am merely sitting in the same room as someone and have absolutely no legal or moral duty to police what items other people have in their possession or choose to do with them. My interest, as a TO, is purely in making sure that everyone is working from the same page for my tournament. So, is the model on the table representative and recognisable of the appropriate unit in the game both players are engaging in? Are all players working to the previously identified common ruleset? And so on. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

The idea that I have some legal culpability for someone else reading a pirated photocopy whilst standing in my event is laughable. That is very much not how the law works.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/04/09 18:59:50



 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I didn't read the whole thread, but just want to echo the prior comment re: how deeply silly it is to suggest that a TO might get into legal trouble if someone at their event is violating copyright with their copy of the rules. That is not at all a realistic fear. Don't take anyone who tells you that seriously, they clearly do not understand the basics of copyright and you should not be relying on their take.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






beast_gts wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Where do I get/buy a "legal copy" of the WD from last year?

The Warhammer Digital site has the back catalog of White Dwarf to purchase- https://www.warhammerdigital.com/White_Dwarf

They had more recent rules in War of the Spider.

Plus you get a name generator!
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

All this talk about copyrights is interesting, but I thought the point of having each player bring a copy of their rules was so that the player, their opponent, and the TO can all reference them should there be any rules question or dispute. They generally expect the purchased hardcopy of the rules because any secondary source of the rules, like a photocopy or Battlescribe are too easily edited to the providers advantage.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Every book has a FAQ/errata that is in PDF, so it seems a bit odd to talk about how it's important to bring an original copy of the book because PDFs can be edited, when in fact it's the PDF that is the actual final authority on what the rule are, not said book.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

Anyone with a smartphone can pull but the FAQ on GW's website anytime. You can't say the same for the codex.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 alextroy wrote:
All this talk about copyrights is interesting, but I thought the point of having each player bring a copy of their rules was so that the player, their opponent, and the TO can all reference them should there be any rules question or dispute. They generally expect the purchased hardcopy of the rules because any secondary source of the rules, like a photocopy or Battlescribe are too easily edited to the providers advantage.


That's pretty much been my point the whole time. I'm still confused as to why anyone disagrees with this. Yes, FAQs and errata exist for pretty much every GW publication but they're all officially available via the website which is not the case for digital copies of the rules themselves.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Has anyone actually ever encountered anyone with doctored rules? I can't imagine you'd actually get anywhere like that at a tournament, you'd be relying on nobody else being there who knows your army well enough to know that whatever is being doctored isn't the real stat / wording / whatever. If someone like that does exist - I've neither met them nor ever heard about them at a major tournament - I don't think they're going to be deterred from cheating by having to bring hardcopy books. If anything, I'd prefer they get caught cheating by editing their PDF, that's way easier to catch someone on than to catch them on them cheating by moving stuff more than it should move, moving models when their opponent isn't looking, etc.

It seems like such a remote possibility to legislate based upon. The possibility of people cheating with weighted dice seems a bajillion times higher, yet no tournaments force you to use tournament-provided dice (except sometimes for the finals, and I think that's less to do with the possibility of cheating and more because they're streaming those games).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/11 17:13:29


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

The likelihood of it happening isn't the point. You know you are dealing with the correct rules if they have the actual publication in front of you.

Anytime I have a question about my rules or my opponent's rules, I want the rulebook not their BattleScribe printout. I know there is enough inaccuracies and paraphrasing in those that I want to see the real rules if I am calling them into question. I don't think my friends are trying to cheat me, I just don't trust unverifiable sources when I am concerned about the exact wording.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Summary vs actual rules is a different question than whether you demand said rules be in the original hardcopy book, as opposed to a binder with photocopies, or in a PDF on their phone, or whatever else. The idea that you wouldn't accept anything but a hard copy because of the possibility it could be doctored just strikes me as a bit silly in a game where trust plays such a huge role. If you can't trust someone not to use a doctored PDF or photocopies, how can you possibly trust them not to use weighted dice?



   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





yukishiro1 wrote:
Summary vs actual rules is a different question than whether you demand said rules be in the original hardcopy book, as opposed to a binder with photocopies, or in a PDF on their phone, or whatever else. The idea that you wouldn't accept anything but a hard copy because of the possibility it could be doctored just strikes me as a bit silly in a game where trust plays such a huge role. If you can't trust someone not to use a doctored PDF or photocopies, how can you possibly trust them not to use weighted dice?





That was my point earlier in the thread. Yes, someone could modify rules when they copy it, but it'd actually be a terrible way of cheating because so many people have the rules memorised that you'd very quickly be found out.

I remember years ago in a casual game someone tried to cheat by changing rules while playing a friend of mine (they didn't have the book on them, they were going from "memory"), but unfortunately for the cheater they were playing Lizardmen, and because I played Lizardmen also my friend had mostly memorised the rules and called him out for it. In that case it wasn't copied rules, the guy was just pretending he forgot his book but he supposedly knew rules by heart.

If the same thing happened and the person had doctored copies of the rules, it'd simply mean there was physical evidence of his cheating instead of just blaming his bad memory, lol.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Summary vs actual rules is a different question than whether you demand said rules be in the original hardcopy book, as opposed to a binder with photocopies, or in a PDF on their phone, or whatever else. The idea that you wouldn't accept anything but a hard copy because of the possibility it could be doctored just strikes me as a bit silly in a game where trust plays such a huge role. If you can't trust someone not to use a doctored PDF or photocopies, how can you possibly trust them not to use weighted dice?


Yeah, you have a summary of the rules alongside your roster and then a scan / photo / copy of the relevant pages of the book in case questions come up.

Some of the Forge World books have only a few pages of relevant rules for hundreds of pages of fluff, pictures, etc, and the books are often expensive and large to go carrying around. So in that I've always just photographed the pages, turned it into a PDF and either had it on my phone or a tablet (though admittedly at casual games rather than tournies).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 06:38:51


 
   
Made in no
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Oslo Norway

 alextroy wrote:
The likelihood of it happening isn't the point. You know you are dealing with the correct rules if they have the actual publication in front of you.

Anytime I have a question about my rules or my opponent's rules, I want the rulebook not their BattleScribe printout. I know there is enough inaccuracies and paraphrasing in those that I want to see the real rules if I am calling them into question. I don't think my friends are trying to cheat me, I just don't trust unverifiable sources when I am concerned about the exact wording.


You should take the likelihood of something happening into account when deciding to worry or not. This is something that goes in the "do not worry", because the chance of someone cheating like this is so low, and the impact is also not really important.

While I haven`t played 9th at all, in all earlier versions of 40k, something being in the book is not actually a guarantee that it is correct. Things get FAQed, errataed, and overwritten by newer publications.

   
Made in us
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




Everyone is losing their heads about doctored photo copies rules, while the WAAC power gamer is fast rolling 40 dice and picking up 3s, 4s, and 5s, and counting them as hits and or saves. I've had way more problem with shady rolls then I ever had with someone's rules not being in proper military format.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Everyone is losing their heads about doctored photo copies rules, while the WAAC power gamer is fast rolling 40 dice and picking up 3s, 4s, and 5s, and counting them as hits and or saves. I've had way more problem with shady rolls then I ever had with someone's rules not being in proper military format.
That would happen exactly once in a game with me. I would quickly tell them to leave their hits on the table until I can look at them or this game is over/I'm calling over a judge.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 alextroy wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Everyone is losing their heads about doctored photo copies rules, while the WAAC power gamer is fast rolling 40 dice and picking up 3s, 4s, and 5s, and counting them as hits and or saves. I've had way more problem with shady rolls then I ever had with someone's rules not being in proper military format.
That would happen exactly once in a game with me. I would quickly tell them to leave their hits on the table until I can look at them or this game is over/I'm calling over a judge.



Yeah, our local club fixed this by putting dice rolling boxes at each table. Dice doesn't count if it's not in the box, and the box is in a position where everyone can see. This has fixed 90% of the dice issues of "hey, you rolled the dice over there behind the terrain and I can't see it but you said it hit and then picked it up before I could see...." that the wacc people like to try.
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot



Canada

For what its worth I checked our local tourney Player Pack. "You must have the Codex available (hardcopy or digital) to provide to your opponent as needed." Doesn't get into scanned vs original hard copy. I can't recall it ever coming up?

If someone did doctor a copy that is some deep level deception with malice of forethought worthy of a perma-ban. Much worse that bad die-rolling or forgetting/misplaying a rule.

Anyhoo.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
 
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