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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Rob Lee wrote:
The people who have been fined hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions, of $ on behalf of music rights holders probably thought that no-one would care about little old them...
But again you're conflating something that is definitely illegal (sharing copies of copyrighted material) with something that you only suspect might be illegal (someone possessing a copy, when they may or may not own the original).


I'm not conflating anything.

It's an example of what has happened in other areas of entertainment and the arrogant attitudes people have towards it, thinking they'll never get caught. Well those people are getting gakked on.


Possessing a copy is not illegal.


Yes it is. If you don't own the original. Go back to my post with the link in it for reference. It's UK law but, again, it's likely no different in the US or other civilised countries that have copyright laws.


That's the last I'll say on it, I'm sure you or others will have some further lame arguments condoning, and as to why people shouldn't worry about, copyright infringement happening in our hobby.

It's a "debate" that shouldn't even be taking place.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/04/07 07:23:57


 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Rob Lee wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Rob Lee wrote:
The people who have been fined hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions, of $ on behalf of music rights holders probably thought that no-one would care about little old them...
But again you're conflating something that is definitely illegal (sharing copies of copyrighted material) with something that you only suspect might be illegal (someone possessing a copy, when they may or may not own the original).




I'm not conflating anything.

It's an example of what has happened in other areas of entertainment and the arrogant attitudes people have towards it, thinking they'll never get caught. Well those people are getting gakked on.


That's the last I'll say on it, I'm sure you or others will have some further lame arguments condoning, and as to why people shouldn't worry about, copyright infringement happening in our hobby.

It's a "debate" that shouldn't even be taking place.


Your arguments are absurd though.

Yes, sharing copies of copyrighted material is illegal. You can get fined for it and charged damages if the companies involved can prove damages (which is how file sharers copped such big claims, companies successfully argued that their uploads, i.e. them sharing the copied items, equated to lost sales).

Drug dealing is illegal. It'll put you in jail, and in some circumstances it'll get you in trouble if you observe it happening and don't report it.

Possessing a copy of something is not illegal. It only becomes a problem if you don't also own the original.

The difference is something that's blatantly illegal, versus something that is only illegal if other conditions are met. It's why the popo aren't bashing every ipod owner over the head, even though it's highly likely they are listening to a copied version of the music files.

Hell, you could have someone who DOES have the original but stole it, are you going to go round asking people for bank statements and receipts to prove they didn't steal their original copy of the rules?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/07 07:30:15


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Hell, you could have someone who DOES have the original but stole it, are you going to go round asking people for bank statements and receipts to prove they didn't steal their original copy of the rules?


FFS Your arguments are the one's that are absurd.


Again - Yes it is illegal to have a copy that you don't "own" the original source of. As YOU just stated, not having the original becomes a problem. In fact it becomes a legal problem in most countries that have copyright laws.

FYI - no obviously you don't go asking for receipts. You just don't allow players to use copies. End of.

Like I said, you can keep on spinning it, and trying to condone it all you like. The debate is not one that should be taking place, the more people openly infringe copyright in the hobby the more likely it is for rights holders to start clamping down - and that will only have a negative impact on people who are doing things the right way and aren't infringing copyright.


If you want to be an idiot and/or a douche, as a player, a TO, a FLGS or whatever and put yourself in the crosshairs of the copyright infringement litigators then that's your issue, but don't go ruining it for the rest of us by bringing a crap ton of heat down on the hobby in the process.


That really is the last I'll say on it, better things to do today than repond to your BS.

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2021/04/07 07:56:43


 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Rob Lee wrote:
The debate is not one that should be taking place, the more people openly infringe copyright in the hobby the more likely it is for rights holders to start clamping down - and that will only have a negative impact on people who are doing things the right way and aren't infringing copyright.


And once again, it is not copyright infringement to make a copy of rules from a book which you own, no matter how much you want to make it sound like actual copyright infringement.

You don't have to carry the original around with you any more than you have to carry the 50 CD's which you've ripped into your ipod.

I'm against doing or condoning illegal activity, but what you're talking about is as absurd as accusing everyone who drives a car of doing something illegal because maybe they were speeding, after all, a car would allow one to speed.

That really is the last I'll say on it, better things to do today than repond to your BS.
You keep saying this but you just won't go away

If you're someone who likes to get the last word in, best to not say "this is the last I'll say on it", because you know it's not.

But maybe if you stop saying I'm trying to condone copyright infringement I might stop posting.

Maybe I'll crack out a defamation lawsuit on you, Dakka better shut down the forum before that happens!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/07 08:25:22


 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

How about both of you just knock it off. You're both saying the same thing while insisting the other guy is wrong. Clearly the communication isn't getting through here. Just let it go.

 
   
Made in gb
Dispassionate Imperial Judge






HATE Club, East London

 Rob Lee wrote:

If you want to be an idiot and/or a douche, as a player, a TO, a FLGS or whatever and put yourself in the crosshairs of the copyright infringement litigators then that's your issue, but don't go ruining it for the rest of us by bringing a crap ton of heat down on the hobby in the process.


Both of your arguments here are about how FAR you think you should go to cover yourself if you think something illegal is happening.

Personally, I think a TO requiring everyone in the tournament to prove they own a legitimate version of every book by producing the paper book or the receipt is massively over the top, and goes well beyond 'covering your arse'. Maybe you also require anyone with a FW model to turn up with legitimate proof of purchase from FW just in case you get sued for them bringing a recast? Or hell, anyone turning with ANY models at all has to have a complete set of receipts from GW just to prove they aren't 3D prints. You know, just in case! What if they turn up with a designer hat on - do they need to prove it isn't a knock-off?

The big divider here is probably the act of dealing in copies. I'd suggest that, as a TO, you're not going to be legally liable unless someone is making, distributing or otherwise selling copyrighted material in your event.

But if you want to be more careful, go ahead and start checking the washing instrcutions!


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 ArbitorIan wrote:


Personally, I think a TO requiring everyone in the tournament to prove they own a legitimate version of every book by producing the paper book or the receipt is massively over the top



Why? What's unreasonable about saying to players they need to bring the original copies of the books rather than scanned copies? I'm not saying TOs absolutely should do it, but I've seen more than one tournament pack with that stipulation and I've never heard any complaints from players about it. A TO marching down the rows of tables demanding to see everyone's books is a little OTT but having it as a requirement seems entirely reasonable to me.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

 Lorek wrote:
This thread is full of people who've never played in a tournament, but if they did, would make it miserable for everyone.

Around half of people roll up to the table with just a printed-out Battlescribe list and nothing else, and 90% of the time this is just fine. There's always someone there that has the actual book if you need it, and you can also Google most of the rules if you really need to.


Pretty much this. I'm not nearly as concerned about how the person has their rules available to them as I am concerned about how they think they have their rules memorized.

As for the legal stuff... I see a lot of bad legal takes, but copyright law seems to bring out the really bizarre ones. The first thing to understand is that copyright infringement, outside of malicious and for profit stuff, is a civil matter, not criminal. Once you get into civil law, things start to get fuzzier in the details. A person using a copied codex is certainly actionable, in that there is a clear cause of action. To state with authority "that's illegal" is a gross oversimplification of a complicated system. I think that a person could make a compelling argument that for their personal use of the Space Marine Codex, they need an opponent who also has access to the rules. I'm not sure that's a winning argument, but given the other factors (low value of copied works, lack of commercial/profit seeking behavior, and the minimal actual damages), my guess is that at absolute worst a person would be on the hook for statutory damages, which range as low as $750, and not even GW is going to spend the money necessary to recover $750.

The making a copy for a friend loophole isn't written down anywhere, but we've all had duped tapes, CDs, or DVDs at some point in our lives. Worrying about the copyright police breaking up a tournament because somebody brought a copied codex is just not worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote:
 ArbitorIan wrote:


Personally, I think a TO requiring everyone in the tournament to prove they own a legitimate version of every book by producing the paper book or the receipt is massively over the top



Why? What's unreasonable about saying to players they need to bring the original copies of the books rather than scanned copies? I'm not saying TOs absolutely should do it, but I've seen more than one tournament pack with that stipulation and I've never heard any complaints from players about it. A TO marching down the rows of tables demanding to see everyone's books is a little OTT but having it as a requirement seems entirely reasonable to me.


It's not unreasonable, but it's unnecessary. I cannot fathom any cause of action GW could have against a Tournament organizer when a player used a copied rulebook.

A TO demanding "proof" that a player buys his rules isn't protecting himself, but simping hard for GW. Which is fine, and arguably reasonable, but not necassary.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/07 12:55:22


My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
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Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





What can gw do? Restrict access to sales. Like they do if store preorders for customers before preorder window opens.

Not issue for tournaments with zero support from stores. How many of those are out there?

2021 painted/bought: 497/417 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 insaniak wrote:
How about both of you just knock it off. You're both saying the same thing while insisting the other guy is wrong. Clearly the communication isn't getting through here. Just let it go.
Fair enough, boss, it was getting pretty silly several posts ago, lol.

tneva82 wrote:
What can gw do? Restrict access to sales. Like they do if store preorders for customers before preorder window opens.

Not issue for tournaments with zero support from stores. How many of those are out there?


I think one of the major gaming clubs around here that organised many events for years didn't have much support from stores.

But do GW themselves even have a "no copies" rule? Maybe in their own stores, but is it stipulated in any documentation provided to their third party vendors? GW could restrict access, but they'd have to write it into their agreements first.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/07 14:42:02


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






 insaniak wrote:
How about both of you just knock it off. You're both saying the same thing while insisting the other guy is wrong. Clearly the communication isn't getting through here. Just let it go.


I've added him to my ignore list. Frankly I find him indicative of many people here on this forum, you disagree with their faulty view of something, and they start going stupid with whataboutery, reductio ad absurdum and other spurious argumentative and frankly hostile tactics. It makes for a rather unsavoury forum.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

But if you want to be more careful, go ahead and start checking the washing instrcutions!



Thanks, I will.

Slipspace wrote:
 ArbitorIan wrote:


Personally, I think a TO requiring everyone in the tournament to prove they own a legitimate version of every book by producing the paper book or the receipt is massively over the top



Why? What's unreasonable about saying to players they need to bring the original copies of the books rather than scanned copies? I'm not saying TOs absolutely should do it, but I've seen more than one tournament pack with that stipulation and I've never heard any complaints from players about it. A TO marching down the rows of tables demanding to see everyone's books is a little OTT but having it as a requirement seems entirely reasonable to me.



^ THIS.


It is astounding just how blasé people are about the law, civil or criminal and their responsibility. It's not there to play catch me if you can with, or copping out by turning a blind eye.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/04/07 15:42:37


 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

 Rob Lee wrote:
It is astounding just how blasé people are about the law, civil or criminal and their responsibility. It's not there to play catch me if you can with, or copping out by turning a blind eye.


I do not think you have a correct understanding of responsibility or liability for copyright infringement, and that is coloring your view of other people's behaviors.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




Illinois

 Rob Lee wrote:
It is astounding just how blasé people are about the law, civil or criminal and their responsibility. It's not there to play catch me if you can with, or copping out by turning a blind eye.


I really hope you're trolling. No one in the real world or at any event actually cares about any of this. It must be exhausting to worry so much about what rules and laws other people are or aren't following all the time.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Polonius wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
 ArbitorIan wrote:


Personally, I think a TO requiring everyone in the tournament to prove they own a legitimate version of every book by producing the paper book or the receipt is massively over the top



Why? What's unreasonable about saying to players they need to bring the original copies of the books rather than scanned copies? I'm not saying TOs absolutely should do it, but I've seen more than one tournament pack with that stipulation and I've never heard any complaints from players about it. A TO marching down the rows of tables demanding to see everyone's books is a little OTT but having it as a requirement seems entirely reasonable to me.


It's not unreasonable, but it's unnecessary. I cannot fathom any cause of action GW could have against a Tournament organizer when a player used a copied rulebook.

A TO demanding "proof" that a player buys his rules isn't protecting himself, but simping hard for GW. Which is fine, and arguably reasonable, but not necassary.


It's not unreasonable but it's somehow "simping hard for GW". Yeah, think you may be way off the mark there. In case you missed the point before charging in with your weird accusations, I was merely pointing out that requesting players bring an original copy of the rules they intend to use is not an abnormal request in any tournament pack I can think of.

It's got nothing to do with a TO protecting themselves from copyright lawsuits or protecting the profit margin of GW, it's just standard practice that I've never seen anyone bat an eyelid over. Nobody's taking anyone to court over a scanned copy of the rules at an event but as a TO I can understand not wanting to get embroiled in arguments over the legitimacy of a rule because someone doesn't have the original hard copy or legitimate digital version on them.
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





Slipspace wrote:
but as a TO I can understand not wanting to get embroiled in arguments over the legitimacy of a rule because someone doesn't have the original hard copy or legitimate digital version on them.
But is that something that is likely to happen?

To me it just seems like people are worried other people might use copied rules to cheat, but in reality I think people wouldn't do it because so many gamers have the rules memorised that you'd quite quickly get caught out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/07 17:04:10


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
but as a TO I can understand not wanting to get embroiled in arguments over the legitimacy of a rule because someone doesn't have the original hard copy or legitimate digital version on them.
But is that something that is likely to happen?

To me it just seems like people are worried other people might use copied rules to cheat, but in reality I think people wouldn't do it because so many gamers have the rules memorised that you'd quite quickly get caught out.



Probably not, but I think the idea that a TO making the request to have the original rules when you attend their tournament falls a long way short of simping for GW, which is what I was accused of.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

Slipspace wrote:


It's not unreasonable but it's somehow "simping hard for GW". Yeah, think you may be way off the mark there. In case you missed the point before charging in with your weird accusations, I was merely pointing out that requesting players bring an original copy of the rules they intend to use is not an abnormal request in any tournament pack I can think of.

It's got nothing to do with a TO protecting themselves from copyright lawsuits or protecting the profit margin of GW, it's just standard practice that I've never seen anyone bat an eyelid over. Nobody's taking anyone to court over a scanned copy of the rules at an event but as a TO I can understand not wanting to get embroiled in arguments over the legitimacy of a rule because someone doesn't have the original hard copy or legitimate digital version on them.


I think given day one errata, campaign books, white dwarf content, etc., the idea that an original hard copy of the rules is the best source of rules is probably flawed, but whatever. I didn't even disagree that it's reasonable, I just think it's unnecessary. By that, I mean that it doesn't provide enough good to outweigh the cost, but hey, YMMV.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote:
Probably not, but I think the idea that a TO making the request to have the original rules when you attend their tournament falls a long way short of simping for GW, which is what I was accused of.


I didn't accuse you of simpling, unless you're also a TO, in which case, sure. But when original rules, especially for older armies, are so errated up, I"m not sure I 100% see the value. Battlescribe is more accurate than nearly all of the codices, so if you're actually concerned with accuracy, asking players to bring their books accomplishes little other than making them prove they bought their own books. Hence, the simping.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/07 17:37:52


My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







 Polonius wrote:

Battlescribe is more accurate than nearly all of the codices


It's hilarious that you'd claim that.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

 solkan wrote:
 Polonius wrote:

Battlescribe is more accurate than nearly all of the codices


It's hilarious that you'd claim that.


So, any codex published prior to the points readjustment in late 2020 has all improper points. No printed codex includes errata or FAQs, or added datasheets.

Seriously, you do NOT want somebody building an army strictly out of the Astra Militarum. all the points are wrong, Commissars work completely differently, Take Cover could apply to a tank, models could disembark after a valkyrie moved 20" and then move themselves...

I might be slightly hyperbolic, but the bulk of codices have significant changes from their original printed form.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





Slipspace wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
but as a TO I can understand not wanting to get embroiled in arguments over the legitimacy of a rule because someone doesn't have the original hard copy or legitimate digital version on them.
But is that something that is likely to happen?

To me it just seems like people are worried other people might use copied rules to cheat, but in reality I think people wouldn't do it because so many gamers have the rules memorised that you'd quite quickly get caught out.



Probably not, but I think the idea that a TO making the request to have the original rules when you attend their tournament falls a long way short of simping for GW, which is what I was accused of.
Fair enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Polonius wrote:
I didn't accuse you of simpling, unless you're also a TO, in which case, sure. But when original rules, especially for older armies, are so errated up, I"m not sure I 100% see the value. Battlescribe is more accurate than nearly all of the codices, so if you're actually concerned with accuracy, asking players to bring their books accomplishes little other than making them prove they bought their own books. Hence, the simping.



Even if someone doesn't give two hoots about GW I think the other reason is maybe if folk are concerned people aren't buying books from stores, particularly if a tournament is supported by or conducted at a local store.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/07 18:01:03


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Polonius wrote:
 solkan wrote:
 Polonius wrote:

Battlescribe is more accurate than nearly all of the codices


It's hilarious that you'd claim that.


So, any codex published prior to the points readjustment in late 2020 has all improper points. No printed codex includes errata or FAQs, or added datasheets.

Seriously, you do NOT want somebody building an army strictly out of the Astra Militarum. all the points are wrong, Commissars work completely differently, Take Cover could apply to a tank, models could disembark after a valkyrie moved 20" and then move themselves...

I might be slightly hyperbolic, but the bulk of codices have significant changes from their original printed form.


Sure, but I'm not taking BattleScribe over a Codex where the rules are concerned - I've had that argument enough times as it is. If someone has the original rules we have the source for applying any errata and FAQs so that's hardly an argument against brining the originals.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

Slipspace wrote:
Sure, but I'm not taking BattleScribe over a Codex where the rules are concerned - I've had that argument enough times as it is. If someone has the original rules we have the source for applying any errata and FAQs so that's hardly an argument against brining the originals.


Except... FAQs and Errata can be just as easily edited or modified as a scanned or photocopied original, so if you're concern is preventing that kind of cheating (whcih, btw, has never happened that I'm aware of), you would require the person to freshly download the FAQs from GW, and have them available digitally.

Bringing physical books is a PITA, especially for armies still usign psychic awakening or forgeworld, and the sole benefit seems to be ensuring that people don't make changes to their print outs/scans, which frankly is not something I've ever heard of happening.

The reality is, it's MUCH more likely that a player, using a hard copy of his codex, will want to use a rule that was errated than they are to somehow forge new rules.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Polonius wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
Sure, but I'm not taking BattleScribe over a Codex where the rules are concerned - I've had that argument enough times as it is. If someone has the original rules we have the source for applying any errata and FAQs so that's hardly an argument against brining the originals.


Except... FAQs and Errata can be just as easily edited or modified as a scanned or photocopied original, so if you're concern is preventing that kind of cheating (whcih, btw, has never happened that I'm aware of), you would require the person to freshly download the FAQs from GW, and have them available digitally.

Bringing physical books is a PITA, especially for armies still usign psychic awakening or forgeworld, and the sole benefit seems to be ensuring that people don't make changes to their print outs/scans, which frankly is not something I've ever heard of happening.

The reality is, it's MUCH more likely that a player, using a hard copy of his codex, will want to use a rule that was errated than they are to somehow forge new rules.


And those errata and FAs are available digitally to the TO direct from the source so there isn't a problem there. I'm aware of how annoying it is to carry all those books around but that's hardly the fault of the TO and if you're already carrying a large army around the extra weight of a couple of books is fairly incidental.

You're also assuming I'm referring exclusively to GW games (part of why it was so bizarre to be called a GW simp, BTW, since my response was not specifically about GW systems yet you jumped to your bizarre conclusion anyway). Many games don't require that same amount of rules material to play and in many cases the rules are on cards or reference sheets that serve in-game purposes too for tracking damage etc.
   
Made in gb
Dispassionate Imperial Judge






HATE Club, East London

Slipspace wrote:
 ArbitorIan wrote:


Personally, I think a TO requiring everyone in the tournament to prove they own a legitimate version of every book by producing the paper book or the receipt is massively over the top



Why? What's unreasonable about saying to players they need to bring the original copies of the books rather than scanned copies? I'm not saying TOs absolutely should do it, but I've seen more than one tournament pack with that stipulation and I've never heard any complaints from players about it. A TO marching down the rows of tables demanding to see everyone's books is a little OTT but having it as a requirement seems entirely reasonable to me.


I mean, if you snip a quote out of context it DOES look less reasonable.

Might wanna go back and look at that comment, which is Rob Lee stating that he has to require everyone to bring a physical book otherwise he's gonna get SUED, and me stating how requiring everyone to bring a paper copy just to legally 'cover your arse' is massively OTT behaviour. Because it is.

You're not going to get sued because someone in your tournament had a scan of the rules on an iPad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 09:52:46


   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Heroic Senior Officer





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

Just get the cheaper WH Digital versions (not they they do that any more).
How do TOs handle that as proof of ownership?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Argh, this is insanity. Infringing on copyright is illegal. Possessing a copy is not illegal.
It is in parts of the world other than yours.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 12:33:54


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 Skinnereal wrote:
Just get the cheaper WH Digital versions (not they they do that any more).
How do TOs handle that as proof of ownership?


The digital editions are awful. The layout and aesthetics are just horrid. I bought one digital edition of a book and immediately regretted it, would much rather have a scanned copy of the physical book on my tablet than those things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Skinnereal wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Argh, this is insanity. Infringing on copyright is illegal. Possessing a copy is not illegal.
It is in parts of the world other than yours.

Which parts? I intentionally checked advice from several different countries and possessing a copy of a book you own was legal in the ones that came up. Perhaps there are parts of the world that are different, but copying for personal use and format changing* seemed to be pretty universally allowed from my googling (obviously you should check the law in your own country).


*other than a couple of exceptions like not being able to format shift video games or remove DRM, but for books, music and so on it seemed like format changing was acceptable use.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/08 13:41:26


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






 ArbitorIan wrote:


I mean, if you snip a quote out of context it DOES look less reasonable.

Might wanna go back and look at that comment, which is Rob Lee stating that he has to require everyone to bring a physical book otherwise he's gonna get SUED, and me stating how requiring everyone to bring a paper copy just to legally 'cover your arse' is massively OTT behaviour. Because it is.

You're not going to get sued because someone in your tournament had a scan of the rules on an iPad.



And you might want to go back and look at my comments, I haven't said you're going to get sued, I've said there is potential there for it. Don't let that stop anyone continuing to twist what I've said to fit their excuses though.

You're right though, you probably won't get sued. At the moment. Keep pushing and testing the boundaries and that may well change.

Things have been and are already changing. Rights holders, are getting increasingly pissed off with people infringing their copyright and have been and are continuing to take action. And rightly so.

And we're not talking about people copying books they own when referring to copyright infringement.

And that's the point that needs to be understood - people need to be careful and aware of the growing ire of rights holders, more so as a business owner which many TOs are, instead of going about in la la land thinking "oh nobody cares about it, it'll never happen, I can do what I like", and trying to justify and make excuses for turning a blind eye.

If you don't agree with that, that's fine, but at the least you're just sticking your head in the sand.

Like I've said, it's astounding how blasé and in fact ignorant people are.

This message was edited 17 times. Last update was at 2021/04/08 13:32:18


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Rob Lee wrote:
And you might want to go back and look at my comments, I haven't said you're going to get sued, I've said there is potential there for it.


That's a complete cop-out. You might as well be arguing that tournaments need to check the resin on Forge World models to make sure they're not recasts because there's potential for them to be sued over it. It's no less reasonable a fear.

There's 'potential' to be sued over anything. They don't actually need a valid claim to sue. What matters from a practical perspective is whether there's clear legal liability, whether there have been historical precedent for lawsuits over the issue, and then whether the defendants have lost. As far as I can see the answers are no, no, and no.

Are you aware of any examples of a TO getting sued for allowing people to use photocopied material- something completely legal in every Western country- and then losing the suit? Because if this boils down to 'it's never happened, but it theoretically could', then that and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 13:38:19


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






 catbarf wrote:
allowing people to use photocopied material- something completely legal in every Western country-


Yes. Only if you own the original material. We all know that if you own the original, in the UK, likely the same in the US, you are allowed by law to make and use copies for personal use. That's not an issue. And that's been well established.

The issue isn't over people who own the original source of their copies.


If you think everyone should just sit back, ignore it, or continue pushing the boundaries, then act surprised when rights holders kick off, and that is the message being given off in this thread, then fine. I don't and I know many rights holders and content creators don't either.


This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/04/08 14:02:02


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Rob Lee wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
allowing people to use photocopied material- something completely legal in every Western country-


Yes. Only if you own the original material. We all know that if you own the original, in the UK, likely the same in the US, you are allowed by law to make and use copies for personal use. That's not an issue. And that's been well established.

The issue isn't over people who own the original source of their copies.


Photocopies are legal. Photocopies of books you don't own are not. You're saying TOs need to ban photocopies or face legal liability for copyright infringement. Which doesn't make any sense since they're not in any way, shape, or form abetting the distribution of copyrighted material (unlike the example of a club knowingly abetting drug sales), but let's roll with this for a moment.

Forge World minis are legal. Recasts aren't. Do TOs need to ban FW minis to avoid legal liability for recasts? Buying a recast model and downloading/printing a pirated document are the same as far as the law is concerned. TOs can't tell if a photocopy holder owns the book, TOs can't tell if a model is legitimate. It's the same 'problem'.

Owning minis is legal. Owning stolen minis isn't. How's a TO to deal with that?

The nebulous threat that some rights holders will start filing frivolous lawsuits isn't much of an argument. That said, it might be a relevant concern for TOs who don't want to deal with any kind of lawsuit- frivolous or not- but that would hinge on there being any prior examples or sources beyond your uncle who works at Nintendo.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 16:18:28


 
   
 
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