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Made in gb
Servoarm Flailing Magos




United Kingdom

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
If someone did doctor a copy that is some deep level deception with malice of forethought worthy of a perma-ban. Much worse that bad die-rolling or forgetting/misplaying a rule.

The couple of times I know people have been caught doing this, they've all pleaded ignorance - "it was like that when I downloaded it!" (despite them bringing the units that had T or W added...)


Azuza001 wrote:
Yeah, our local club fixed this by putting dice rolling boxes at each table. Dice doesn't count if it's not in the box, and the box is in a position where everyone can see. This has fixed 90% of the dice issues of "hey, you rolled the dice over there behind the terrain and I can't see it but you said it hit and then picked it up before I could see...." that the wacc people like to try.

Yeah, dice boxes / trays work - and if they're using more that one set of dice a TO keeps an eye on them. My pet peeve is people who mix dice with logos on the 1 and 6.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/13 16:32:36


 
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot



Canada

beast_gts wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
If someone did doctor a copy that is some deep level deception with malice of forethought worthy of a perma-ban. Much worse that bad die-rolling or forgetting/misplaying a rule.

The couple of times I know people have been caught doing this, they've all pleaded ignorance - "it was like that when I downloaded it!" (despite them bringing the units that had T or W added...)


Azuza001 wrote:
Yeah, our local club fixed this by putting dice rolling boxes at each table. Dice doesn't count if it's not in the box, and the box is in a position where everyone can see. This has fixed 90% of the dice issues of "hey, you rolled the dice over there behind the terrain and I can't see it but you said it hit and then picked it up before I could see...." that the wacc people like to try.

Yeah, dice boxes / trays work - and if they're using more that one set of dice a TO keeps an eye on them. My pet peeve is people who mix dice with logos on the 1 and 6.


Where did they download it from? Toward the end of 8th there were a number of FAQs that altered not just points but basic stats. It was a bit messy. Since the FAQs were free and available on the GW site I can't see how one would accidently download a doctored copy?

Regarding dice, my GW Dark Angels dice have both a skull and a DA symbol. Annoying design choice on GW's part, but I declare which is which to my opponent at the start of the game. The 1st Edition Battlefront dice for Flames of War had army symbols for the 1. Then they made sets with the army symbol for the 6. What a mess. I am actually not a fan of dice trays. Roll'em out in the open on the table for all to see.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

beast_gts wrote:
The couple of times I know people have been caught doing this, they've all pleaded ignorance - "it was like that when I downloaded it!" (despite them bringing the units that had T or W added...)


Players altering stats is much less of a problem than players and TOs being unwilling to confront an obvious cheater.

Make it clear that any discrepancy is grounds for automatic disqualification and actually enforce it and it won't be an issue. If someone brings a printout, it's on them to make sure it's actually correct.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Rob Lee wrote:
The question isn't about whether or not people might cheat or if other players would call you out on it and I'm not sure why that's even being brought up, other than to dodge the real issue...

...which is legal liability as a TO.

Looking at it from the pov of a TO, unless someone brings their codices with them, either as GW's epubs or physical books, I can't tell if a copy is of a book the person owns or not.

So, do I take the risk of having people in my tournament, using copies of books that they don't own, which basically boils down to piracy, or do I insist people not use copies unless they prove they own the originals?

Rhetorical question.

What the OP has described, i.e. the TO raising an eyebrow (as he was right to do) to the OP's scanned/printed copy, of the Marine codex, "copied from a friend", thus presumably the OP doesn't own the original and presumably wasn't/isn't able to produce an original if asked to, boils down to a legality issue for the TO, meaning copyright laws in the TO's country and whether or not they as TO and/or they're tournament's players want to abide by the law.

Shouldn't be any question or doubt over it.


EDITED for spelling and clarity.


Mate, you aren't legally liable for other people's copyright violations

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Well, was not aware the intensity of legality in regards to TOing. Clearly none of my friends care when we play, but yes I can imagine a larger tournament being more strict about it.


I wonder how many players GW has sued for using a printed/PDF at a tournament. Or how many TOs they have removed for allowing such a rule. I'm guessing not many, but still not a risk TOs want.


There's no legality, TOs aren't liable for other people pirating books

Heck, a TO can go up to someone and go "You should pirate all the books GW makes" at their event and... they still aren't liable if the person does it.

I dunno why people think they would have legal liability for piracy other people commit if they just happen to see a pirated document or run an event with people who have a pirated document.

beast_gts wrote:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I wonder how many players GW has sued for using a printed/PDF at a tournament. Or how many TOs they have removed for allowing such a rule. I'm guessing not many, but still not a risk TOs want.

I don't know about sued, but it's one of the things that can get a store blacklisted by GW (so they can't buy product direct from them).


This is an actual credible threat, but GW, uh.... doesn't have book checkers even at the very biggest events. And their event team doesn't give that much a gak about it. I suspect providing legal rules is, well, a contingent part of receiving GW support for an even, but also it isn't something they actually check. So, like, don't go up to the GW event team and go "I AM STEALING YOUR RULES AND THE TO IS COOL WITH IT BITCHES!"

 oni wrote:
I'm very curious to know where a lot of you passed the Bar to be able to advise on copyright law and who is or is not complicit.

A lot of these comments about piracy are laughable.

The issue is one of respect, propriety and expectation. None of the nonsense above.

If <person> has done everything expected of them to properly play the game (e.g. purchased book, correct models, etc.) then <person> expects all other participants to do the same, but if other participants do not it is a breach of etiquette.

Imagine if you will... You're invited to a cookout and everyone is asked to bring a food item to share, but someone shows up with only the half eaten bag of chips from their pantry. It highlights that persons lack of caring which is disrespectful to the others and it falls short of the expectation of the conventional requirement of the social behavior.

Coming to a game, organized event or not, with a printed PDF or similar of the needed book(s) is akin to being that person who showed up to the cookout with the half eaten bag of chips.


Coming to an event with 5 to 6 different rulebooks fething sucks, increases the load of transport, particularly for people traveling by air, and is an all around hassle.

Boy I wish the 40k app wasn't a huge trash fire and worth a sub. Oh and that you could just purchase rules digitally and not this double dipping bs of "oh you get a code in the hard copy we are making you buy". feth that noise, and feth GW for trying it.


 Rob Lee wrote:
 oni wrote:
I'm very curious to know where a lot of you passed the Bar to be able to advise on copyright law and who is or is not complicit.


Same place as you did only I'm not using spurious analogies to ignorantly dismiss what could be a serious issue if it ever reaches courts. Copyright issues surrounding what people can and can't do with media/content are frequently reaching the courts and we've seen quite a few landmark cases in recent years. It is something to be very much aware of and not to be dismissed as laughable.


I'll just leave this here, I can't find a similar source for the US at this time, but I highly doubt US law is any different -

https://www.copyrightuser.org/understand/exceptions/private-copying/

Under UK Copyright Law, end users can make ‘personal copies for private use’ of content they ‘lawfully acquired on a permanent basis’. This means that it is lawful to make copies of materials you have purchased, received as a gift or downloaded from legal sources. However, it is not permitted to copy content borrowed from a friend, rented or unlawfully obtained.


Note the highlighted part of that paragraph.

Now, the OP has clearly stated he has copied the Marine codex from "a friend".

Which in UK law is not permitted. I doubt it is under US law either. Please feel free to prove me wrong with another spurious analogy about bags of chips though.



But that doesn't mean that you, as a TO, are somehow liable for the illegal actions of two people who are playing in your tournament.

Now if you are taking the moral stance of "all piracy is so bad that I won't even countenance the possibility of it, original hard copies only" then, like, say that. Don't warble about how you have to worry about liability as a TO. Ya don't.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Rob Lee wrote:
...which is legal liability as a TO.


But is it? Surely the legal liability would be with the individual using the copied book, not the TO.

Legally speaking, I would have thought it's enough for a person to say to a TO to verbally check that they own a copy, not for them to produce the original. I'm absolutely not a lawyer trying to make legal advice, but it just seems to me that at that point it's not the responsibility of the TO to force the person to produce physical evidence, that sounds like a job for the Popo.

 Rob Lee wrote:
Surprised Dakka allow such discussions to be honest, seeing as piracy is essentially what is being discussed.
Obviously what the OP said is wrong, you shouldn't be copying a friend's book, but I think the discussion agreed to that pretty early on and have shifted to the more general discussion of not using original copies of books, be they print outs or digital scans of a book they already own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 oni wrote:
Coming to a game, organized event or not, with a printed PDF or similar of the needed book(s) is akin to being that person who showed up to the cookout with the half eaten bag of chips.

That is an absurd analogy, it's nothing akin to that at all, it generally takes MORE effort to create print outs or scans of your books, you do it because you don't want to carry around a $100, 100 page book for the sake of a handful of pages of rules.


The police give no feths about pursuing copyright violations, and no police officer will arrest you for it. They got other things to do, and if they are feeling like an donkey-cave, they don't need a pretext to find a reason to harass you. It's a job for lawyers.
 Rob Lee wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But is it? Surely the legal liability would be with the individual using the copied book, not the TO.

Legally speaking, I would have thought it's enough for a person to say to a TO to verbally check that they own a copy, not for them to produce the original. I'm absolutely not a lawyer trying to make legal advice, but it just seems to me that at that point it's not the responsibility of the TO to force the person to produce physical evidence, that sounds like a job for the Popo.


Would you as a TO, club owner, FLGS owner, or other business owner or even premises owner involved, like to test the idea that you're not responsible in the courts?

I think any sane, intelligent, business person/club owner/tournament event organiser would say no and err on the side of caution, be that through asking for evidence, or a blanket refusal of allowing copies to be used, the latter obviously being the easier route.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Obviously what the OP said is wrong, you shouldn't be copying a friend's book, but I think the discussion agreed to that pretty early on and have shifted to the more general discussion of not using original copies of books, be they print outs or digital scans of a book they already own.


Yeah I get that.


Hahaha, wow.

Actually plenty of TOs world wide test this regularly in their events, because they really don't have the energy or care to hunt down every single person playing in an event and demand they produce an original copy of the rules. Do you go up to every player in your events and demand they produce a copy of the rules? Like, how small are your events that you do this?
 Rob Lee wrote:
Yeah I know times are tough. Your best bet is to go buy the book for yourself. That way you know you arse is covered. Shared ownership? Doubt that'd hold any water.


Wait wait, what if his friend gives him the book or *legasp* lets him... borrow the hard copy to play with? Mein gott, that's illegal! Better demand they show you the receipts too

Voss wrote:
That's an interesting take. I've never seen google provide the complete text and context of a rule. I certainly wouldn't trust anyone who pulled that out of their pocket in a key moment during a tournament.


it's cause people playing know most of the rules and ultimately in a dispute, the TO just makes a ruling and everyone moves on even if the TO is wrong. Spending time haggling over rules and pulling up FAQ PDFs eats too much tournament time, and few if any top players will bother, though low level wannabes might ruin your game with this sort of nonsense.

 Rob Lee wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
A big difference there is that dealing drugs in a club is always going to be illegal


So will infringing on copyright, or piracy as it's more commonly known, always be illegal. So, no, no difference. Both are unlawful/illegal activities in the eyes of the law.

You can spin it any which way you like.

At then end of the day if you are a TO and you are not ensuring your event is 100% above board, you're at the very least a crappy TO.


Copyright infringement, as serious as being a drug dealer. And all TOs suck. Better tell Reece he's a bad TO for not personally checking every rule in his multiple hundred person events
 insaniak wrote:
How about both of you just knock it off. You're both saying the same thing while insisting the other guy is wrong. Clearly the communication isn't getting through here. Just let it go.


Come on, let's not pretend someone's complete insanity is just one side of an argument.
Slipspace wrote:
 ArbitorIan wrote:


Personally, I think a TO requiring everyone in the tournament to prove they own a legitimate version of every book by producing the paper book or the receipt is massively over the top



Why? What's unreasonable about saying to players they need to bring the original copies of the books rather than scanned copies? I'm not saying TOs absolutely should do it, but I've seen more than one tournament pack with that stipulation and I've never heard any complaints from players about it. A TO marching down the rows of tables demanding to see everyone's books is a little OTT but having it as a requirement seems entirely reasonable to me.


It's a pain in the ass and GW offers digital alternatives. I mean, if TOs say "you have to use GW's app", fine, whatever, it's a trashfire and its monetization is immoral as feth, but that's not on the TO.

Slipspace wrote:
 Polonius wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
 ArbitorIan wrote:


Personally, I think a TO requiring everyone in the tournament to prove they own a legitimate version of every book by producing the paper book or the receipt is massively over the top



Why? What's unreasonable about saying to players they need to bring the original copies of the books rather than scanned copies? I'm not saying TOs absolutely should do it, but I've seen more than one tournament pack with that stipulation and I've never heard any complaints from players about it. A TO marching down the rows of tables demanding to see everyone's books is a little OTT but having it as a requirement seems entirely reasonable to me.


It's not unreasonable, but it's unnecessary. I cannot fathom any cause of action GW could have against a Tournament organizer when a player used a copied rulebook.

A TO demanding "proof" that a player buys his rules isn't protecting himself, but simping hard for GW. Which is fine, and arguably reasonable, but not necassary.


It's not unreasonable but it's somehow "simping hard for GW". Yeah, think you may be way off the mark there. In case you missed the point before charging in with your weird accusations, I was merely pointing out that requesting players bring an original copy of the rules they intend to use is not an abnormal request in any tournament pack I can think of.

It's got nothing to do with a TO protecting themselves from copyright lawsuits or protecting the profit margin of GW, it's just standard practice that I've never seen anyone bat an eyelid over. Nobody's taking anyone to court over a scanned copy of the rules at an event but as a TO I can understand not wanting to get embroiled in arguments over the legitimacy of a rule because someone doesn't have the original hard copy or legitimate digital version on them.


As someone who fell hard into the vtuber hole, there's nothing wrong with being a simp.

Simp away my dudes.

But GW requires an increasingly large amount of books to play any one army, and it is tedious to cart around and asking people to do so verse just using what digital options are available is a dick move to players.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
but as a TO I can understand not wanting to get embroiled in arguments over the legitimacy of a rule because someone doesn't have the original hard copy or legitimate digital version on them.
But is that something that is likely to happen?

To me it just seems like people are worried other people might use copied rules to cheat, but in reality I think people wouldn't do it because so many gamers have the rules memorised that you'd quite quickly get caught out.



Probably not, but I think the idea that a TO making the request to have the original rules when you attend their tournament falls a long way short of simping for GW, which is what I was accused of.
Fair enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Polonius wrote:
I didn't accuse you of simpling, unless you're also a TO, in which case, sure. But when original rules, especially for older armies, are so errated up, I"m not sure I 100% see the value. Battlescribe is more accurate than nearly all of the codices, so if you're actually concerned with accuracy, asking players to bring their books accomplishes little other than making them prove they bought their own books. Hence, the simping.



Even if someone doesn't give two hoots about GW I think the other reason is maybe if folk are concerned people aren't buying books from stores, particularly if a tournament is supported by or conducted at a local store.


Stores make their cheddar off models, not books.


 Polonius wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Photocopies are legal. Photocopies of books you don't own are not.


The first is probably legal, the second is probably illegal. That's the thing with this stuff, it's just not as clear as people on either side want to think.

It's obviously not illegal to sometimes make photocopies of copyrighted material, otherwise libraries wouldn't have copy machines.

And we know we can't scan, print, and bind up copies of books and resell them.

What's legal is somewhere in there.

Look at a codex. Is even half of it actually rules? cut out the crusade stuff and the points values, and you're left with half of the Space Marine codex. If you are smarter still, and only include those datasheets you plan on using, the startegems, the general rules, and the points from CA2020, you might only be carrying 20 pages of photocopies out of a 200 page book. is that fair use? Probably not?

The reality is that outside of the napster years with DRM, there just haven't been a lot of cases of rights holders filing suit against individuals with copied works for personal use. And even in the napster cases, the people they sued didn't just downloaded, but "published" (shared) the works.

Remember that copyright is a federal matter. This doesn't go to small claims or mayor's court, a real corporation would have to hire an attorney to file a complaint in federal court against a person for making a photocopy of their rules for a friend. One of the few ironclad rules of the federal courts is that judges hate cases that waste their time, which this 100% does. then the person becomes a minor cause celebre because they are being bullied by a multinational corporation over a few photocopies. All of this, for, best case, $750 in statutory damages. I'm not here to say that this will never happen, but I'd buy comet insurance before I'd worry about being sued over a few dittoed rules. Mostly because copyright does not, and cannot, protect facts, information, data, or ideas. It can only protect the expression of that idea. Rules and manuals are notoriously difficult to protect by copyright.

I think a lot of people think that the law is simple (it's not) and the threats/concerns are complex (they aren't). Copyright law is incredibly complicated, and nobody is in a hurry to actually take a case to court over personal photocopies of rules. There simply is no threat.



Yeah but Nintendo. Check mate.



 catbarf wrote:
 Rob Lee wrote:
You're telling me what I'm thinking. You're telling me "You're extremely concerned about one specific type".

Thank you for telling me that, I'm glad I can rely on you to tell me what I'm thinking.

The topic was about books, so, yeah, my comments have been in reference to copyright infringement regarding books.


Okay. Let's make this simple.

Do you think TOs need to be worried about forms of copyright infringement other than books?

If not, why not?

 Rob Lee wrote:
Sorry what?! You're either not "pro-infringement" or you are.


I'm against copyright infringement.

I'm also against TOs taking it upon themselves to ban all potentially copyright infringing content over dubious fears of lawsuits.


I mean I am against TOs banned legal activities because they are donkey-caves too.
 catbarf wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
What I don't understand is why there's then a problem with asking people to bring their original rules rather than copies. If you're claiming fair use you'll own the originals so what's the problem? I don't think it's really about a TO being overly worried about being sued but if the problem is minor yet the solution is also extremely simple while completely removing any potential legal issue at all why the resistance?


Personally, I'm fine with bringing books to a tournament. I wouldn't try to just bring copies because I can definitely understand it not being trustworthy.

However, to play my Tyranids, I need:
-Main rulebook
-Codex Tyranids
-Blood of Baal
-FAQ for the codex
-FAQ for the rulebook

Having to cross-reference multiple documents is logistically a pain when playing on a table that doesn't have any dead space for opened books. I much prefer to compile some quick reference material and staple it together in a binder with hand-written notes and references (figuring out which document changed a particular rule from the codex is a real pain) so that I can easily find the relevant info, while still having the books in my bag in case I'm challenged or the opponent just wants to see the original. It's a convenience thing.

Being denied that convenience for no good reason- because there isn't any demonstrable legal issue- is annoying. Not the end of the world, but 'I can't allow convenient photocopies or I'll be the first TO in the history of forever sued by GW for it' is an eye-roller.


For an event you'll also need the missions and points cost books
Slipspace wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
All this talk about copyrights is interesting, but I thought the point of having each player bring a copy of their rules was so that the player, their opponent, and the TO can all reference them should there be any rules question or dispute. They generally expect the purchased hardcopy of the rules because any secondary source of the rules, like a photocopy or Battlescribe are too easily edited to the providers advantage.


That's pretty much been my point the whole time. I'm still confused as to why anyone disagrees with this. Yes, FAQs and errata exist for pretty much every GW publication but they're all officially available via the website which is not the case for digital copies of the rules themselves.


GW used to allow you to purchase rules for 40k through their sight (even if they used the distinctly inferior EPUB format).

Now they make you use a trashfire and still buy a hardcopy instead. Cause they don't know how to make an app and know buying their rules is a bs exercise anyways, so why not milk as much as possible?
 alextroy wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Everyone is losing their heads about doctored photo copies rules, while the WAAC power gamer is fast rolling 40 dice and picking up 3s, 4s, and 5s, and counting them as hits and or saves. I've had way more problem with shady rolls then I ever had with someone's rules not being in proper military format.
That would happen exactly once in a game with me. I would quickly tell them to leave their hits on the table until I can look at them or this game is over/I'm calling over a judge.


People do use weighted dice all the time. Not, like, doctored to be weighted, just getting a feel for which of their dice is poorly made in a way that rolls higher. The more neurotic even test to see which of their dice is badly weighted in beneficial ways
   
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also, I can introduce you to people who can proffesionally roll dice and routinely get tossed out of casinos. I have seen videos of people who can throw sixes on command. It's not random. Dice throwing is a skill. A Dice cup is the only way to avoid that.
   
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There's dice-rolling apps for phones too.

   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
also, I can introduce you to people who can proffesionally roll dice and routinely get tossed out of casinos. I have seen videos of people who can throw sixes on command. It's not random. Dice throwing is a skill. A Dice cup is the only way to avoid that.


Sounds larger than life to me. Doesn't closed, cupped hands, and shaking, act in the same way a dice cup does? Assuming the proffesional dice roller isnt using slide-of-hand, weighted dice or other sneaky bull to get away with it. And if rolling dice truly is a skill, I need to work on it, I roll too many ones

I do drugs.
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My hobby blog__ Hell Raised Regiment Three - Link in Bio
 
   
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Nurglitch wrote:
There's dice-rolling apps for phones too.

I've got the official GW one, yet people still get salty when I try to use it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
also, I can introduce you to people who can proffesionally roll dice and routinely get tossed out of casinos. I have seen videos of people who can throw sixes on command. It's not random. Dice throwing is a skill. A Dice cup is the only way to avoid that.


Sounds larger than life to me. Doesn't closed, cupped hands, and shaking, act in the same way a dice cup does? Assuming the proffesional dice roller isnt using slide-of-hand, weighted dice or other sneaky bull to get away with it. And if rolling dice truly is a skill, I need to work on it, I roll too many ones


Yes, and they can't do it with more than one or two dice at a time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 14:04:59


 
   
Made in ca
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I would rather have a few dice-rolling sharks out there (what exactly is on the line?) than overly regulate dice rolling among wargamers.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
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What I learned over time as a TO is questions like this are less about legality or even the potential for cheating and more about the atmosphere of the event itself. Events are a social thing; and as much as the job of a TO is making sure that the rules are followed, its also important to make sure that everyone feels at ease and fairly treated in an inherently confrontational setting.

So, a lot of it comes down to the motivation of players asking for an exception. They're asking for special treatment, why? Is it fair for me to allow them to skirt around something that everyone else adhered to or will that just breed resentment? Are they the kind of person that sees inconvenient rules as something to ignore and is that going to make them a bad opponent?

Unfortunately that's all really subjective. Proxy's often fall into the same camp. It's hard to write hard rules for this stuff, because the best way to make everyone feel they're treated fairly is to have strict guidelines with no exceptions. Realistically though, that excludes a lot of potential fun, which is where it all becomes a judgement call. Does this exception add to the enjoyment of the event? In the case of proxies and conversions, 99% of the time, absolutely. New players trying to fit in? Probably worth allowing.

Events are a result of players collective contributions, both financially and socially. When someone looks for an exception, the first thing they should ask is "what am I contributing that justifies being treated differently?" The answer is probably just a new friend to play games with, but taking the time to consider the impression you leave on your opponents is a big part of making sure that's the case.
   
Made in ca
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 LunarSol wrote:
What I learned over time as a TO is questions like this are less about legality or even the potential for cheating and more about the atmosphere of the event itself. Events are a social thing; and as much as the job of a TO is making sure that the rules are followed, its also important to make sure that everyone feels at ease and fairly treated in an inherently confrontational setting.

So, a lot of it comes down to the motivation of players asking for an exception. They're asking for special treatment, why? Is it fair for me to allow them to skirt around something that everyone else adhered to or will that just breed resentment? Are they the kind of person that sees inconvenient rules as something to ignore and is that going to make them a bad opponent?

Unfortunately that's all really subjective. Proxy's often fall into the same camp. It's hard to write hard rules for this stuff, because the best way to make everyone feel they're treated fairly is to have strict guidelines with no exceptions. Realistically though, that excludes a lot of potential fun, which is where it all becomes a judgement call. Does this exception add to the enjoyment of the event? In the case of proxies and conversions, 99% of the time, absolutely. New players trying to fit in? Probably worth allowing.

Events are a result of players collective contributions, both financially and socially. When someone looks for an exception, the first thing they should ask is "what am I contributing that justifies being treated differently?" The answer is probably just a new friend to play games with, but taking the time to consider the impression you leave on your opponents is a big part of making sure that's the case.


Excellent post! Some wise advice for Tournament Organizers. I've been a TO for Flames of War, and the pre-game requests for exceptions to things (painting/WSYWIG etc) were something I had not considered before they started coming in. Fairness has to be the guiding principle, and you are absolutely correct that is a judgement call. That is often harder than making a ruling on a rules question that comes up during the game.

Is there a Tournament Organizer Corner of Dakka?

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I would rather have a few dice-rolling sharks out there (what exactly is on the line?) than overly regulate dice rolling among wargamers.


I'd say probably two thirds or more of the top players in any GW game have a set of dice they know is off balance in their favor and will break out for key rolls.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




That's a remarkably slanderous accusation to make without pretty compelling evidence. Do you have any?
   
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Lincolnton, N.C.

I know there's a test you can do with water that checks the 'balance' of the die, but it's more of a slight odds improvement, and not a slam dunk. I imagine 'that guy' and WAACers do that.

But I've never heard of a specific person doing it to win an event. Someone told one you could microwave dice too, but that seems dubious to me.

More to the topic, if I was a TO, sure I'd allow a scanned dex. If I was a GW employee, I wouldn't. As it stands if I was to play in this day and age. I'd just play off battlescribe as it is.

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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





I'm doing a non-primaris space marine army that's mainly tactical squads. If anyone with the codex wants to tear out about 4 data sheets you will never use and send them to me, it would be much appreciated, and save me £25 and a stiff back from hauling that tome around.

My first and current painting and modeling blog:

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Longtime Dakkanaut




stratigo wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I would rather have a few dice-rolling sharks out there (what exactly is on the line?) than overly regulate dice rolling among wargamers.


I'd say probably two thirds or more of the top players in any GW game have a set of dice they know is off balance in their favor and will break out for key rolls.


I'd say that's completely made up bullgak. Even if it were true (which it isn't) I don't think any player's going to get away with swapping dice every time they come to a key roll.
   
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Oslo Norway

Slipspace wrote:
stratigo wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I would rather have a few dice-rolling sharks out there (what exactly is on the line?) than overly regulate dice rolling among wargamers.


I'd say probably two thirds or more of the top players in any GW game have a set of dice they know is off balance in their favor and will break out for key rolls.


I'd say that's completely made up bullgak. Even if it were true (which it isn't) I don't think any player's going to get away with swapping dice every time they come to a key roll.


I´ve run into a player or two in my 15 years of gaming who had special dice for certain circumstances. While they did seem to roll well with those, I did not feel like I could call them on cheating or demand that they didn´t use their lucky dice, as they could just as likely be just that, superstition from the player. The few examples I have run into with questionable dice were also not "top" players.

2/3rds of "top" players cheating with dice is a ridiculous claim, much like the insane claims about risk of being sued for copyright as a TO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 10:11:42


   
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





Slipspace wrote:
stratigo wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I would rather have a few dice-rolling sharks out there (what exactly is on the line?) than overly regulate dice rolling among wargamers.


I'd say probably two thirds or more of the top players in any GW game have a set of dice they know is off balance in their favor and will break out for key rolls.


I'd say that's completely made up bullgak. Even if it were true (which it isn't) I don't think any player's going to get away with swapping dice every time they come to a key roll.


It's pretty easy to get away with. You don't boldly announce you are changing dice, you just have your dice grouped together and pay attention to which part of the group you put certain dice. It'd be so easy to just put high rollers on one side, low rollers on another, then random dice on the other side to the middle. People aren't going to notice you pulling from different parts of your dice pool depending on what result you want. You could even shuffle the pool occasionally (keeping track of where different dice went) to further hide it.

It would be difficult to spot, and even if you do spot it, it'd be a pain in the arse to prove (you gonna take their dice and roll them 500 times to prove they're cheating?).

I've known some people who openly say they're superstitious, and put their "lucky" dice aside, but you could just as easily do it secretly without people noticing.

Of course the 2/3rds comment is just out of thin air, but I'm sure there's some people out there that do it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 10:27:24


 
   
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stratigo wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I would rather have a few dice-rolling sharks out there (what exactly is on the line?) than overly regulate dice rolling among wargamers.


I'd say probably two thirds or more of the top players in any GW game have a set of dice they know is off balance in their favor and will break out for key rolls.


As recent events have shown you don't need 'lucky' dice or mad sleight of hand dice chucking, just normal dice and handling the truth awkward

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I know there's a test you can do with water that checks the 'balance' of the die, but it's more of a slight odds improvement, and not a slam dunk. I imagine 'that guy' and WAACers do that.

But I've never heard of a specific person doing it to win an event. Someone told one you could microwave dice too, but that seems dubious to me.

More to the topic, if I was a TO, sure I'd allow a scanned dex. If I was a GW employee, I wouldn't. As it stands if I was to play in this day and age. I'd just play off battlescribe as it is.


It's not uncommon, but more realistically people notice which dice tend to roll higher and assign it as their "lucky" die they break out for a key roll. Or everyone buying up and then using the same dice pack in a tournament.

The lucky die thing is super common though.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
stratigo wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I would rather have a few dice-rolling sharks out there (what exactly is on the line?) than overly regulate dice rolling among wargamers.


I'd say probably two thirds or more of the top players in any GW game have a set of dice they know is off balance in their favor and will break out for key rolls.


I'd say that's completely made up bullgak. Even if it were true (which it isn't) I don't think any player's going to get away with swapping dice every time they come to a key roll.


It's pretty easy to get away with. You don't boldly announce you are changing dice, you just have your dice grouped together and pay attention to which part of the group you put certain dice. It'd be so easy to just put high rollers on one side, low rollers on another, then random dice on the other side to the middle. People aren't going to notice you pulling from different parts of your dice pool depending on what result you want. You could even shuffle the pool occasionally (keeping track of where different dice went) to further hide it.

It would be difficult to spot, and even if you do spot it, it'd be a pain in the arse to prove (you gonna take their dice and roll them 500 times to prove they're cheating?).

I've known some people who openly say they're superstitious, and put their "lucky" dice aside, but you could just as easily do it secretly without people noticing.

Of course the 2/3rds comment is just out of thin air, but I'm sure there's some people out there that do it.



Two thirds is indeed a gut feeling. Mostly this is coming out of a couple of ME SBG events I been at, where there are fewer rolls done at any one time and I noticed how many people, especially at the top, were rolling statistically well and all had the same handful of dice sets.



But the fact is, most dice played with isn't well balanced, and that leaves it open for being curated.
   
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





There are some sweet multi-quoting skills on display in this thread.

Just someone answer me this, if I go to a tournament, like a big one, like a GT or something, do I have to bring my core rule book, and the faq's, as well as my codex, and the faq's? What format should the faq's take (I don't have a smartphone!)

My first and current painting and modeling blog:

Planetary Defence Force with alternative models and converted vehicles 
   
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United Kingdom

 PaddyMick wrote:
Just someone answer me this, if I go to a tournament, like a big one, like a GT or something, do I have to bring my core rule book, and the faq's, as well as my codex, and the faq's? What format should the faq's take (I don't have a smartphone!)


Check the event pack or with the TO. For example, the London GT pack says you must bring "-Rules, including core rule book, codices, indices and any FAQs relevant to your army".



Just noticed this in the London GT pack as well:
USING YOUR OPPONENTS DICE
Please note that in the interest of fairness, all dice used in a game may be rolled by either player. You are not permitted to refuse your opponent if they ask to use some of the dice you are using and vice versa.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/20 20:04:29


 
   
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





Cheers. I guess printed faqs, downloaded from gw would be ok then, and I reckon you would need the latest faq's for the core rules too. I'm guessing army lists must be submitted beforehand electronically and also printed for your opponent as well. Depending on the tournament of course.

Personally i'll need a cheat sheet too I reckon, or some cards or some such, and some little flags for the terrain with keywords on them, to keep track of everything.

Wargaming sure got a lot more slick and professional in the last 25 years. I've played (at clubs, not tournaments, obvs) where no-one had a rule book and only half of us had read one.


My first and current painting and modeling blog:

Planetary Defence Force with alternative models and converted vehicles 
   
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Servoarm Flailing Magos




United Kingdom

 PaddyMick wrote:
I'm guessing army lists must be submitted beforehand electronically and also printed for your opponent as well. Depending on the tournament of course.


Yep - I think London GT uses the Best Coast Pairings app for list submission, and their pack says to bring "-2 copies of your army list. One for yourself and your opponents, and one for the judges who will walk around during the event to collect these."
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




The vast majority of tournaments just say you have to bring copies of the relevant rules, they don't specify what format it has to be in. Precisely to avoid getting into these sorts of issues. "Don't ask, don't tell" re: where the rule came from is a lot easier for everyone.
   
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander




I just heard about TJ Lannigan's cheating at the Texas major....and in investigating that, learned about Spikey Bits, With Matt's cheating scandal. And Wyatt as well apparently. Consider that sub canceled. I guess I knew it was an issue, but I never knew it was the top players. I always thought it was the mid level guys.

   
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United Kingdom

Fabricator's Forge April GT - Tournament Recap & Results - Reddit. The TJ 'incident'.

Cheating also seems to be a hot topic with podcasters right now:
Duplicity Studio w/ Jim Vesal - Can Cheaters be Redeemed?
Be Nice Roll Dice Episode 9: How To Deal With Cheaters
   
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Not going to lie, it seems the flavor of the week when caught cheating is to immediately flood the net with accusations of "death threat bombardment" and cry foul. Matt from Spikey Bits did it and is doing it now when anyone brings up his scandel. TJ started claiming it before it was announced he was punished. And then his apoligy was basically, "Please stop threatening me". I understand threats like this are serious and should be taken seriously, but there is never any proof but reddit comments (Might as well point to 4chan) and they instantly get the moral high ground. TJ is a scum bag and Matt was as well. Please stop playing the victim card as soon as you get caught cheating and get banned.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




The two just don't relate to one another. Someone shouldn't get death threats for cheating, but just because they are doesn't mean you should be more sympathetic to how they cheated in the first place. It's neither here nor there.

TJ has apologized and promised to fix himself (though tbh I'm not completely convinced from his statement, especially given how it took a week for him to say anything). You don't have to forgive him, and I would certainly watch carefully in any future interaction you might have, but I do hope people will keep an open enough mind to recognize the possibility for redemption. Sometimes people really do change after being caught and punished because it serves as a wake-up call; not often, but it does happen.
   
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Well said, and I agree with most of what you say. I just want to make it clear I disagree with Matt on the Long War Podcast instantly shutting down any attempt at discussion of his involvement in cheating by responding to EVERY comment in the youtube video chat with "Please don't firebomb my house". It smacks of dramaqueen, and prevents a honest discussion of events.
   
 
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